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The 13th Vessel



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Xblade13

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I was replaying through 358/2 Days for the first time since before DDD and I've noticed something. Toward the middle-end of the game, Xion runs away. Saïx goes to Xemnas to inquire what should be done about her. Xemnas replies with a simple "nothing". He says they should let Roxas' and Xion's destines play out. He mentions something else about Xion, using the word "vessel". As I read this, a chill went down my spine, for it brought memories of DDD to mind. Especially considering the irony that everyone in the room at that time has been confirmed as members of the True Organization (Xemnas, Saïx, and Xigbar).
However, I got another slap in the face after the cutscene "Axel and Xion face off". After they battle, Axel is carrying Xion back to TCTNW, when he suddenly collapses from exhaustion. And who should show up but Xemnas, who picks up Xion and walks away with her. The next time we see her is on the clock tower, before the final battle.
We now know that Xehanort had his sights on Roxas to be the 13th member when Riku failed. After seeing these scenes, and knowing Xehanort's cunningness and backup-plan-making skill, I propose that Xemnas took Xion to a computer, emptied her memories (and by extention, heart) into it, then filled her back up again. It would be subconscious; they aren't supposed to know about the future. However, it would serve a clever double role: Xion would be "rebooted" and proceed with her programming first. This is what causes her to attack Roxas on the clock tower.
The secondary role, of course, is that for 5 minutes, there is an empty shell that can be used as a vessel without any interference from another heart. It could be picked up via time travel, and a Xehanort heart fragment be placed in the body. This would serve as a backup, in case Roxas or Sora, failed as vessels.

Which they have.

So, what do you think? Could Xion now be the XIIIth Vessel?

And don't forget: this would open up an opportunity for the Lights as well. If this is the case, Xion's body with a Xehanort heart fragment inside her, all the Lights need to do is remove the Xehanort heart from it, and give her heart back to her body. Xion could come back.
 

Light

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I don't think so.
They were probably refferring to her as a vessel because she's a memory-catcher for Sora. So, she's a vessel for his power/memories.
 

Marx15

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I brought this up before too, it was Day 322. Xigbar, Saix, and Xemnas are sitting in Where Nothing Gathers and are discussing Roxas and Xion.

http://forums.khinsider.com/spoilers/169371-day-322-a.html

I came to the conclusion that the Replica Program was conducted to create Seekers Of Darkness.


But when you say that Xion only attacked Roxas cause Xemnas made her....it was more so that Roxas would then destroy her, cause she didn't want to destroy Roxas, nor did she want to go along with Xemnas' plan.

There is the possibility that Xion knew Xemnas' true plan for the Organization, since she knew that once Xemnas had Kingdom Hearts, he would've succeeded. Now if Xemnas just wanted to give Nobodies a heart of their own, then why stop that, it seems kind of nice actually, but he wanted to create a Hive Mind, so that's not really nice.
 

Nayru's Love

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Now if Xemnas just wanted to give Nobodies a heart of their own, then why stop that, it seems kind of nice actually

Not really, especially when you interpret "giving Nobodies a heart" as "imprisoning thousands of hearts from reuniting with their bodies."

That being said, it wouldn't be too far off to say that Xion lacks enough self-identity, given her memory crisis between both Sora and Riku (well, mostly Sora, anyways). However, Xion currently lacks a physical form, so I don't see how she can time travel to the present.
 

rac7d

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Why doesnt he create another clone to a vessel. Cann they no longer create the replica with out Vexen's know-how.
 

Nayru's Love

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Why doesnt he create another clone to a vessel. Cann they no longer create the replica with out Vexen's know-how.

It'd have to be a clone of someone strong enough to become a Xehanort and have a weak sense of self-identity.
 

Marx15

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It'd have to be a clone of someone strong enough to become a Xehanort and have a weak sense of self-identity.

That and it's apparently an extremely difficult process (to create the perfect replica, which was the main goal).

Xion was known by the Org. Members to be the only working clone. All the others had problems or broke.
They didn't know about Repliku, minus Axel of course, so they thought there wouldn't be any problems. Trying to find a sense of self, is a problem. Repliku wanted to be his own person, if the Org. knew this they may have tried to scrap Xion from the beginning.

Why doesnt he create another clone to a vessel. Cann they no longer create the replica with out Vexen's know-how.

Just a thought, Ienzo may have some insight on the Replica Program.....cause I don't really see Vexen being the only one working on the Replica Program.
 

Memory Master

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I absolutely believe the Replica Program was one of the back up plans to create 13 vessels for Xehanort. Imagine how much easier it would be to just make 13 Xehanort clones, instead of lying for a decade to 13 empty husks, gathering a bunch of hearts to form an artificial KH in order to use it to easily overpower those 13 husks and fill them with the same heart and mind while at the same time rapidly speeding up the time it takes for a heart fragment to grow. (10 years and Xigbar is only half Xehanort, it seems heart fragments take a long time to grow into full hearts. This growth could be sped up greatly if an artificial KH is added to the process.)

The problem with the Replica program is that it is an attempt to create life. This is extremely difficult to perfect. Every Replica had some flaw to them. For Riku Replica, he could never seem to match the original Riku's strength, even after he absorbed Zexion's power. For Xion, her power varied greatly from time to time. And the one thing that makes a Replica difficult to become a vessel for Xehanort is the fact that Replicas when aware of their existence as a Replica become very independent and stubborn in their attempt to be their own person instead of just a copy of someone else. This independence makes it harder for a heart fragment of Xehanort to take control of them.

I do think they were getting close to perfecting replicas. A perfect replica would be one that does not develop it's own personality but in terms of existence they become not just an artificial copy of someone, but they become a perfect "other" of someone and become an existence as though they were born naturally. This perfects the body, soul, and heart of a Replica (Making them like a natural born being) while making sure they cannot develop a personality and mind of their own. (Like how Xion was the first few days of her life). If Xion had succeeded in absorbing Roxas, I believe she would have become like "Another" Sora, that is no longer just an artificial copy, but exist as though she was born naturally. However she would probably have kept her own personality and independence and so that would still pose a problem in terms of possesing her. They would still need to figure out a way to prevent a Replica from developing its own mind and personality in order for them to be of use in forming the 13 Seekers of Darkness.

I think when it comes to creating life, the only way to ensure its done right is to use Kingdom Hearts. Nomura described Kingdom Hearts once as an invisible proof of life. By making contact with Kingdom Hearts I believe Replicas can be perfected in terms of making them like a natural born being, hearts that have lost their physical and seperate existences can be restored as well. I also believe only special people can make such contact with Kingdom Hearts and in a way act as a medium for its power, two of such people I believe are Sora and Master Xehanort. Going a bit off topic but I believe the special abilities of Sora and MX to do special things with the connections they can make with people will be a key plot point in the next saga where I believe we'll encounter more people like them and the concept will be expanded on.
 

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The Replica Program being a means to produce vessels sounds reasonable. You'd directly be making bodies capable of wielding the Keyblade, so the only thing Xehanort would do is insert his piece into those body and wait for them to corrupt, unlike other carriers where he has to wait until they corrupt and attain the Keyblade wielding ability.
 

Sephiroth0812

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The Replica Program being a means to produce vessels sounds reasonable. You'd directly be making bodies capable of wielding the Keyblade, so the only thing Xehanort would do is insert his piece into those body and wait for them to corrupt, unlike other carriers where he has to wait until they corrupt and attain the Keyblade wielding ability.

While it sounds reasonable, the problems (for Xehanort, that is) which come up are also reasonable. As Xemnas explained in DDD, a body without a heart will try to grow one as often as it takes and even if a part of Xehanort's heart is there, it isn't a given success because of how hearts can be formed and developed.

As Ansem the Wise explained to Riku, even just exposure to light and contact with the physical/natural world can help to form a heart and eventually an independent sense of self and therefore a sort of self-awareness comes to be which Xehanort doesn't want for his vessels if possible.
Self-awareness and an own consciousness means the Xehanort-shard will have many difficulties taking over, leaving Xehanort with a flawed vessel at best, or a traitor/rebel at worst.
Sure, the most important part for a new heart to grow is to have contact with other hearts and experience (and acknowledge) emotions, this lets the heart grow faster, so that was what Xehanort and Xemnas had to suppress as much as possible.

Yet still, as both the Riku Replica and Xion proved, Replicas are very fast in building their own senses of self and awareness.

Xemnas even straight out says something along those lines in KH Days, although his statements partly contradict what Memory Master theorized, as he seems pleased that Xion developed a mind of her own for some strange reason:
KH Days said:
Xemnas: Yes, it was not supposed to gain a mind of its own--nor become the
person we see. But in the end, it only proves the puppet is the more worthy
vessel. At last, the time has come. Saïx, are the devices ready?
 

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But the question is:
Did Xion have a piece of Xehanort inside her?
 

JustSnilloc

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But the question is:
Did Xion have a piece of Xehanort inside her?

Nope, she wasn't a favorable candidate... Should she have absorbed Roxas however, she probably would have become the 13th vessel
 

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Xemnas even straight out says something along those lines in KH Days, although his statements partly contradict what Memory Master theorized, as he seems pleased that Xion developed a mind of her own for some strange reason:

It's possible this was some sort of proof towards Xehanort's hypothesis.

Ansem Report 8There is no doubt that the Heartless are deeply connected to the people's hearts. Further study may unravel both their motivations and the mysteries shrouding the heart.
As a start, I have built a device that artificially creates Heartless. By recreating the conditions that spawn the Heartless naturally, I should be able to produce them artificially. This device is the culmination of all my research thus far. The machine's test run successfully created a Heartless.
This may be a step toward creating a heart from nothing. The artificially and naturally created Heartless showed nearly identical traits. But the two types remain distinct for the purpose of the experiment. So, I will mark the ones that are created artificially.
Xehanort has been doing everything for himself, the fact he thinks he deserves to step through the 'door to Kingdom Hearts' even though somewhere along the way he's going to start a war is arrogant to the point of vainity. Knowing he's right about something he perdicted probably would please him to some extent.
 

Nayru's Love

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Xemnas even straight out says something along those lines in KH Days, although his statements partly contradict what Memory Master theorized, as he seems pleased that Xion developed a mind of her own for some strange reason
I think this is a case where "the bigger the bill, the harder you ball" kinda applies. Developing an independent mindset could prove to be super effective in becoming strong enough to be a useful clone. It would just mean that it would take some extra effort in having them lose their self.

That being said, I think Vanitas would make for an excellent 13th clone.
 

rac7d

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I think this is a case where "the bigger the bill, the harder you ball" kinda applies. Developing an independent mindset could prove to be super effective in becoming strong enough to be a useful clone. It would just mean that it would take some extra effort in having them lose their self.

That being said, I think Vanitas would make for an excellent 13th clone.
I have no doubt he is one of the cloaked figures we have yet to see. But he is not the 13th. If wanted to put money on he will be the wild card who survives kh3 and becomes an new major antagnoit for the future
 

Nayru's Love

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I have no doubt he is one of the cloaked figures we have yet to see. But he is not the 13th. If wanted to put money on he will be the wild card who survives kh3 and becomes an new major antagnoit for the future
All of the current vessels have to exist within the flow of time during the events of DDD in some form or another. Given that Vanitas doesn't have a physical form currently, it's probable that he doesn't exist within the flow of time.
 

Xblade13

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All of the current vessels have to exist within the flow of time during the events of DDD in some form or another. Given that Vanitas doesn't have a physical form currently, it's probable that he doesn't exist within the flow of time.
Since Vanitas is the dark half of Ventus, it may be possible that Vanitas can come to the future, since Ventus is still existing in the present: his heart rests in Sora, and his body lies in Castle Oblivion.
 

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All of the current vessels have to exist within the flow of time during the events of DDD in some form or another. Given that Vanitas doesn't have a physical form currently, it's probable that he doesn't exist within the flow of time.

What do you mean by "the flow of time," and how does him having a body or not affect that?
 

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While that particular part in that game has made me curious in the past I believe the whole vessel theory is a bit of a stretch. I mean for one thing it did seem like that could have happened because Xemnas got his hands on her and could have messed with her or altered her in some way shape or form. Although there is somewhat of a logical inconsistency because had something like that happened Sora would have never been able to wake up because of what Xion technically was/Sora's memories.
 

Nayru's Love

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What do you mean by "the flow of time," and how does him having a body or not affect that?
Rules of time travel. You can only time travel to a point in time where you exist within the flow of time. By discarding your body, you don't exist within the flow of time anymore.
 
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