The "Castle" Slide in Deep Jungle

[Christhor]

Nomura retcons things all the time. Really, he could easily switch it to that. For example: Xigbar: "Ha! He used to give me that same look!"

Roxas, right? He's Sora's Nobody, and spent a great deal of time with Xigbar in the Organization. Everyone seems to be calling towards Roxas in Sora and "confusing" the two of them. There's no doubt.

Nomura: "Nope! Now it's Ven he was talking about. I put a scene in BBS just for that!"

Oh yeah definitely, he COULD just go out and say that it's the one from BBS, but it's pretty obvious that in the context of KH it was meant to be Hollow Bastion. I basically hold the original KH on it's own nowadays, it could take place in a different universe than the ones after it.

 

[Odysseus]

Somehow I was just waiting for some of the retcon-whiners to come around again...in a story that it still running it is normal that new facts get included and give older scenes an other meaning sometimes.
Unlike KH 1 though, by the time of KH 2 Nomura had already planned out the continuation of the story so it is entirely possible that this sentence from Xigbar was meant to reference Ventus all along, just like when he called Sora a "dud" with the keyblade in comparison to the others (TAV) later in the Castle that never was.

In Days Xigbar even amusingly slightly "compares" Roxas and Ven when going on a mission with him.

That said, was it really spoken out or confirmed at one point that Xigbar was referring to Roxas when confronting Sora in KH 2 at Hollow Bastion?
Or is that just a widely accepted assumption made up by the fanbase much like the yellow eyes = darkness thing?

Funny thing is...I can't even remember if Roxas ever even gave Xigbar the "shut up"-angry look Ventus and Sora use himself.

Whining? No. Bringing up possibility of a meaning-change to an existing scene? Yes. Cool off, bud.

Before BBS, was there any doubt that he was talking about Roxas? The final designs for TAV weren't even done yet, they just had them in their armor for the secret ending.

As for an "assumption," yes, I suppose it was, but then again half the things are just assumptions that we take for fact, like this castle, for instance, or the "there was only one Keyblade in KH1" thing (well three I suppose...). It'd be a terrible retcon indeed if what he retconned was already set-in-stone fact backed up by the reports and/or characters at the time.

As for if Roxas gave him the angry look, he'd need to have for that scene to make sense. We never saw what went on in The Organization. Then Nomura decided he wanted to change it to Ven, so he saw no reason to put it in Days.

Oh yeah definitely, he COULD just go out and say that it's the one from BBS, but it's pretty obvious that in the context of KH it was meant to be Hollow Bastion. I basically hold the original KH on it's own nowadays, it could take place in a different universe than the ones after it.

I tend to think if KH1 in the same way. Only when I think of the entire overarching story as a whole do I bring KH1 into it. I blame this habit on nostalgia, mostly.

 

[Patamon246]

I wouldn't put it past Nomura to have planned all this. He had planned the Organisation at the time of Kingdom Hearts 1. (Xemnas Battle in KH1FM). In Kingdom Hearts 1 Sora releases his heart, therefore creating Roxas. Who is to say that the link between Ven and Roxas wasn't already established even before we knew Ven existed? Xigbar hints at him the whole time in Kingdom Hearts 2. Hell, Xion becomes him for a while in Days.

What I'm saying is, and yes I know Kingdom Hearts was ment to be a one game thing, but maybe we arn't yet seeing the bigger picture. Who is to say that BBS wasn't planned at the same time as, say, Chain of Memories. Unless I am mistaken, we don't understand the Organisation's plans for Castle Oblivion in Chain of Memories, do we? Xemnas, for some reason, knows Ven is sleeping there. I'm not sure if the Nobodies hint at it, my memory isn't that good, but still, Nomura likes holding back information and never leaves a loose end.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Oh yeah definitely, he COULD just go out and say that it's the one from BBS, but it's pretty obvious that in the context of KH it was meant to be Hollow Bastion. I basically hold the original KH on it's own nowadays, it could take place in a different universe than the ones after it.

Not only in the "context of KH 1" but also in the overall story of the series because of the status of Ven's heart.
Do I really need to understand that last sentence?

Whining? No. Bringing up possibility of a meaning-change to an existing scene? Yes. Cool off, bud.

Before BBS, was there any doubt that he was talking about Roxas? The final designs for TAV weren't even done yet, they just had them in their armor for the secret ending.

As for an "assumption," yes, I suppose it was, but then again half the things are just assumptions that we take for fact, like this castle, for instance, or the "there was only one Keyblade in KH1" thing (well three I suppose...). It'd be a terrible retcon indeed if what he retconned was already set-in-stone fact backed up by the reports and/or characters at the time.

As for if Roxas gave him the angry look, he'd need to have for that scene to make sense. We never saw what went on in The Organization. Then Nomura decided he wanted to change it to Ven, so he saw no reason to put it in Days.

I tend to think if KH1 in the same way. Only when I think of the entire overarching story as a whole do I bring KH1 into it. I blame this habit on nostalgia, mostly.

My bad, I should have used smilies or something other to indicate that I was being ironic, not upset.

Like I said earlier, since the story is not finished yet some old interpretations might get outdated in the overall picture, it's something completely normal and I certainly don't see why some people have such a problem with that.

I can't speak for others regarding doubting that or not, but after the first time I saw the extended secret ending (in which we DO see Ven's face) and Nomura confirmed it was not Roxas I made the connection that since Xigbar likes to taunt Sora with events from the past that in that scene he could refer either to Roxas OR the new kid.

Nomura built the story of BBS out while he was still on KH2, the main reason for not revealing their faces first was for creating suspense.
Nomura already knew that Terra should look similar to Xehanort and that Ven should either have Sora's or Roxas's appearance, he just hadn't decided yet which one to use, so the only one really not "fully designed" (at least in Nomura's script) was Aqua.

Yeah, true, some things are not outright said and then assumptions taken as fact by the majority are taken. Still, if we get an official "explanation" or resolution for a scene/issue shouldn't we then be glad instead of fuming against it just because it was assumed otherwise years ago when KH 1 came out?

It could however also be that Nomura didn't include such a scene because Xigbar was never intended to mean Roxas...again, that is just an assumption. Just because we didn't knew at that time about Xigbar referring to Ventus doesn't make it false, some things are left ambigious for a purpose.
"Then Nomura decided"...really, do we know that Nomura changed his mind? No one can look in that guy's head.

*Sigh*, again this nostalgia crap...I won't elaborate on that anymore because I don't want a debate about that again.

I wouldn't put it past Nomura to have planned all this. He had planned the Organisation at the time of Kingdom Hearts 1. (Xemnas Battle in KH1FM). In Kingdom Hearts 1 Sora releases his heart, therefore creating Roxas. Who is to say that the link between Ven and Roxas wasn't already established even before we knew Ven existed? Xigbar hints at him the whole time in Kingdom Hearts 2. Hell, Xion becomes him for a while in Days.

What I'm saying is, and yes I know Kingdom Hearts was ment to be a one game thing, but maybe we arn't yet seeing the bigger picture. Who is to say that BBS wasn't planned at the same time as, say, Chain of Memories. Unless I am mistaken, we don't understand the Organisation's plans for Castle Oblivion in Chain of Memories, do we? Xemnas, for some reason, knows Ven is sleeping there. I'm not sure if the Nobodies hint at it, my memory isn't that good, but still, Nomura likes holding back information and never leaves a loose end.

Great Patamon, exactly the thing I explained above as well.
Just because WE did not know it doesn't mean that it wasn't already thought of by Mr. Nomura.
It creates somewhat of an "AHA"-effect when you get into later games and then realize "so that's what Xigbar meant".

Kingdom Hearts may have been intended as a stand-alone game at first and Nomura even admitted that the first secret ending (another side, another story) was at first randomly thought up buthe always had ideas and when it became apparent that KH will become a series he did plan things in advance and used ambigious things to sew connections.

We don't see the whole picture for sure...there are many gaps left which DDD and the mystery game are supposed to fill before the grand finale of the Xehanort Saga in KH III.

Most of the additional important stuff towards the mysteries (such as the chamber of repose in Radiant Garden etc.) was included in the Final Mix-content and Xemnas searching frantically for Ven was slightly elaborated upon in Days.

Yep, Nomura definitely likes to hold things back and I think as long as we aren't finished with the story we should not dare to judge.
I can really only shake my head sometimes in disbelief that some would disregard the whole story or complain just because a few things from KH 1 got another, more fleshed out meaning later on.

Final things said though, that castle being familar to Sora because of Kairi's faint memories and a hint at her heart inside him hold true for the whole plot of the series, not just KH 1.

 

[Odysseus]

*Sigh*, again this nostalgia crap...I won't elaborate on that anymore because I don't want a debate about that again.

Irony? I hope so. Sometimes I just like to think of Kingdom Hearts 1 as I did when I first played it: self-contained. There was no debate prompt. Just my opinion.

As for Nomura planning ahead, yes, we know he plans ahead, but we can't know that he plans all of these things this far in advance. Heck, maybe he does, but there's no way to tell. I always figured when he thinks of something cool or new to add to the story, he adds that scene to the Final Mix version, or in another game: but at the time of it being made, it is what it is. Yes, at the time, there was no way of knowing whether or not he meant Roxas, but it can be easily assumed it was at the time, until he decided later on, maybe around the time of Final Mix, to change it to Ven to add a connection to BBS.

At this point in time, it's hard to argue that it isn't Ven, now that it's a well-established fact, but at the time, no one doubted it wasn't, and I doubt he had made the connection himself then, especially when the hot topic at the time was every Organization member Sora met pestering him with Roxas references. Is there proof? No, of course not, otherwise, as I said before, it'd be a sloppy and terrible retcon. We can't assume just because it's been proven now means that Nomura had it in mind the entire time. What if Nomura were to retcon later in BBSv2 (sticking with theories, warning: very out-there example) something like Sora going back in time to Terra's battle with Braig and slashing his face and eye with his Keyblade in an attempt to assassinate him, but failed, and that's why he has an eyepatch and scars? It's the same principle. We all assumed Terra's dark powers did it, but nope, it's more relevant to the plot to have had Sora do it, much in the same way I, and I'm sure many others, assumed Xigbar was talking about Roxas, not Ven. I'm not whining about it, I'm saying it was a very probably retcon, one that leads the way to other possible things not fully explained being retconned, such as this castle.