The divide between America's liberals and conservatives

[Phoenix]

Since Walker survived re-election, I've seen a lot of talk on the internet about how conservatives are marginalized and dismissed (again, on the internet). I don't know how much of that is true, but as a liberal, I would like to reach out to my conservative brethren and look for common ground. We're all humans and we want essentially the same things (life, freedom, security and happiness) so there must be a reason why our political views are so diametrically different sometimes.

Little background; I'm a young, Hispanic straight atheist male. For me personally, social liberties can take precedence over much else because of my outlook on the world. These are some of my positions.

-Pro-gay marriage: I cannot see a non-religious reason for banning it, and separation of church and state are obviously very important to me.

-Pro-choice: I don't think embryos have the rights of humans, since the only difference I see between them and sperm and eggs is the number of chromosomes.

-Pro-smart immigration: I think every nation has the obligation to look out for its citizens first and foremost, but at the same time, we're all human beings and should be treated as such. So I think a clear path to citizenship and tight defense of the borders are important things for a country.

-Anti-ID/creationism: I'm not sure how common this view is these days, but even so, let scientists determine what science is and not politicians. Nobody that hasn't taken college Biology is educated enough to propose an alternative to evolution, just like I wouldn't tell Bill Gates how to run a business.

-Economy: I'll be perfectly honest with you; I'm no economist. It sounds to me that just austerity doesn't work, and that without revenues a government can't function, but I'd be lying is I tried to claim some sort of expertise in this area.

Obviously, this is just a tiny handful of a billion other topics, but I truly want to see if both sides of the spectrum can reach some sort of common ground so that the vitriol and bitterness can subside.

Do you disagree with the views listed here? If so, why?

 

[Wehrmacht]

I agree with the basic premise of most of those views.

The main guiding philosophy behind most of my views is that the fundamental well-being of humanity is the most important thing that matters in any of our communities, with freedom being the second. Essentially I don't see any reason to stop someone from doing or being something unless it specifically harms another person in a meaningful and relevant way. As an extension of this I am very against keeping old things just because they are old if they are especially harmful or don't work anymore. The bullfights in Spain, for example, are a part of spanish cultural heritage for sure, but they are also a cruel ritual of animal abuse that occurs for no other reason than people's entertainment, and so shouldn't be upheld any more.

 

[Hecxy]

Here are my own views:

-Pro-gay marriage: I'm all for it, and it was one of my deciding factors in who I vote for this election (it's also my first time voting).
There isn't any reason to not allow it.
And the conservatives argument of "well, why don't we allow dogs and humans to marry? Or pedophiles to marry?" I always meet with "because gay marriage is between two consenting adult human beings".

-Pro-choice: We don't remember when we were embryos, or even babies. While the embryos may be alive in their own way, they do not have consciousness or thought.
Besides, my body, my choice.

-Pro-smart immigration: The government should come up with a faster, more effective way of accepting citizens faster so we don't have as much illegal immigration.

-Anti-ID/creationism: Obviously, everything came from something, and that something couldn't have come from nothing.
So until we know for sure, if we ever do, I'm going to stick with Descartes' phrase of "cogito ergo sum"...I think, therefore I am.

-Economy: I'm not an expert in economy issues, either, but it occurs to me that a lot of people in office are overpaid. In my opinion, they wouldn't last a week in the shoes of a middle class American (and not even a day in poverty).

Now about my background.

I'm a 19 year old female, Caucasian, and from the southern United States.
My views are radically different than the rest of my family's, which leads to a lot of arguments but I really don't care.
I consider myself to be a moderate liberal.
Social issues are most important to me.

 

[Luap]

I call myself a conservative. But, I also disagree with a lot of what conservative politicians say. I honestly feel the conservative party has become corrupt and doesn't stand for what it used to. The definition of conservative was become skewed.

Conservatives are supposed to stand for the conservation of the Constitution. To conserve it to carefully manage. Like when a family is low on food, they have to conserve, so they change their eating habits. Instead, though, the conservative party seems to try to preserve it, just keep it the same and not care about the fact that every time in history the the Constitution has changed, it's been for the better. We have the Amendment process because the Constitution is meant to change.

-Gay marriage: I'm a Christian, but I support gay marriage. The Bible teaches against people of the same gender having sex (which some people still won't like), but not actually being homosexual. There's no Biblical reason to be against gay marriage.

-Abortion: I am against abortion because I feel it is murder. The only time where I could see it being moral is if it was rape and (not or) the mother will die giving birth. There's always adoption if you don't want to keep the baby. And if you don't want to have one, for health or economic reasons, there's birth control for you to use so you don't get pregnant. If you choose to have sex, you should be choosing to be responsible for the consequences. edit: Also, if abortion is remain legal, then the father should also have a say whether or not to abort the child.

-Immigration: A person coming into the country should try to do it legally if they can. We have our own citizens to think about first, and especially in a time such as now where poverty is widespread, the focus should be on citizens, not illegal immigrants.

-Evolution-Creationism: kupo creationism. It shouldn't be taught in schools, unless it's like Theology, but it should be taught in a way where it's not imposed. Evolution should be taught in every Biology class because evolution is science. Evolution doesn't even contradict the Bible anyways, it's just not talked about, just like the Earth being round isn't talk about.

-Economy: We need a flat tax rate for everyone, with no tax cuts for anyone. Government needs revenue to run, but taxing has to be fair. If the rate is the same for everyone, then when you make less you'll give less and when you make more you'll give more.

 

[Bukkake Sensei]

Disclaimer: I'm a 20 year old Mexican American atheist male.

I don't really know what to call myself. My liberal friends think I'm a conservative and my conservative friends think that I'm a liberal, and I can see a legitimate basis for classifying myself as either.

The entirety of my social politics can be summarized in two principles:

a) all prohibitions must be justified
b) every individual is the property of themselves

I'm not against outlawing certain behaviors that are verifiably harmful (murder, rape, theft, and ecological pollution all come to mind), but my own personal litmus test is rigorous.

Some libertarians have proposed that government should get out of the marriage business altogether and leave marriages/civil unions to the private sector. I like this idea, but I'm also not overly bothered by government involvement in marriage. However, so long as government does involve itself in marriage, no level of discrimination beyond the ability to provide informed consent is acceptable. I support gay marriage. I also support polygamist marriage for the same reason. I would also support interspecies marriages, as long as both species were capable of consenting to the union. Consent is the only factor.

I think that virtually all second amendment arguments are historically baseless and delusional, but I am strongly pro-gun and support keeping gun restriction laws to a minimum.

I'd like to legalize all drugs, including what we currently know as prescription drugs, and start treating addiction as a medical issue rather than a criminal behavior.

I'm fine with abortion up until the third trimester.

I support the idea of a national health service, so long as it's able to coexist with -- not replace -- private health care providers.

I support the legalization of euthanasia.

I'm firmly against the death penalty in every and all case(s).

I support a progressive tax structure, and I tend to think that anybody who doesn't must not know anything about monetary policy.

I'm opposed to government subsidies for oil and agriculture.

I support unions, but I do so with an understanding that they can be kupoing terrible at times.

I'm in favor of broad, sweeping immigration reform. Reduce government involvement in regulating and restricting immigration, streamline immigration laws, eliminate immigration quotas, etc. etc.

I'd talk about foreign policy or economics, but either one of those topics would probably double the length of this post alone.

And that's all the issues I can think of off the top of my head for now.

Believe it or not, I'm not really interested in social issues anymore, but that seems to be the direction this thread is taking so I thought I'd fall in line.

 

[Reflection]

no one cares what i think about any of these issues ❀‿❀

white female het 19 religious

but to answer the question I think the only thing different between conservatives and liberals is the degree to which you value freedom and the degree to which you value equality

i don't think either side is in this with an oppositional mentality just for the hell of it. its just a difference in priorities and principles

to be honest economics is no different with this sort of spectrum of values. but after taking ap microeconomics i might be a pinch more conservative because of how regulation (on wages or rent or taxes) can actually deter the well-being of society and the market in the long run. without an efficient market, you can't have potential for a comfortable life and that's at the heart of society's well-being. idk we used krugman's textbook so it shouldn't be that biased

 

[Nostalgia]

I guess I lean left, but I have issues with the standard beliefs of both parties. Many conservatives base their views on their own religious beliefs despite the fact that a.) it doesn't benefit everyone and b.) not everyone even follows those religious traditions.

I think the problem is that although Conservatives believe strongly in all of the rights as documented in the Constitution, they seem to think religion (really, Christianity) stands above it. They're pro-life because a newly created embryo is a 'baby' to them. They seem to think that the government should intervene in marriage because of the strict doctrine of the bible.

The issue is that these Republicans with such obnoxious views tend to be either really old, or they're heavily influenced by old people. Nothing against senior citizens, but they view things differently; they're less scientific, and they don't question things as much. Think of how common Atheism is these days. Back in the 1940s and 50s, you'd never see Atheists walking about. And if you did, they certainly wouldn't admit to it. People were brought up to believe in the bible's teachings because they're straight forward, and they ease the burden of having to exercise one's own personal judgment. It's a very black-and-white view point. And although this is about religion, it directly affects politics as well. A lot of conservatives associate Liberal views with those of Atheism, and as such, they disdain the Democratic Party as a Satanist organization that's determined to divert people away from the church. They feel this way because a large percentage of college kids who are religious when they enter their respective universities tend to be less religious when they graduate. I personally feel that it's because an introduction to logic and reason that one is exposed to in college will greatly dispel the Christian mindsets on various things. My best of example of witnessing this conflict is to listen to what Rick Santorum was saying when he called Obama a 'snob' for wanting every American citizen to receive a college education.

Honestly, I can go on and on about my Republican rants, but I'm not too concerned because a lot of the crazy and f.ucked up ones are old people, and I feel like the party will restore itself to its once dignified state with the newer generation that's raised in a more tolerant and open-minded society.

My issue with Liberals is that they don't really do anything. They're such pussies when it comes to enforcing their own policies. Many Republicans hate Democrats simply for existing and playing for the other team when there's really not a huge influence of American politics that stems from Liberal views. I mean, Gay marriage is slowly establishing itself, and abortion is legal in many cases, but for the most part, I don't see it as Left vs. Right. I see it as Middle vs. Right, which makes it hard to believe that there is such a conflict.

I'm pro-choice and pro-same sex marriage. I'm also for the legalization of most drugs and for prostitution as well. As for an anti-liberal view, I think Welfare has gotten out of hand and that it should be more of a hurdle for people to acquire it. I've personally seen people on it who were undeserving and they were basically mooching off of the government. I'm not gonna direct it towards Black people like that idiot Newt Gingrich. I just think in general that something drastic needs to be done about its distribution for everyone to whom it applies.

 

[nelly <3]

21 yr old Mexican-born female living in the USA.

I call myself a Democrat and here's the way I look at things

Spoiler Show

• Democratic Party
  Democrat (def.): (N) Right to liberty, life, equal opportunity and freedom of conscience & self-expression. It's such a beautiful world out here, why discriminate?
  
  
  

Gay Marriage: I believe everybody has the right to marriage whoever they love. If one can marry the opposite sex, why can't they marry a person of the same gender? Love comes unexpectedly, and love happens to everybody atleast once in their life. Nobody really knows who they're going to fall for next or who they're gonna marry. So why sould it be anybodys business to tell them who can and can't they marry? I believe everybody has a right. It's more of a personal issue than political. Yes, people who are conservative go strongly against this action. In my opinion, I feel that conservatist are wrong to think this way. "But the Bible says this" I for one do believe in God - but then again, for people that do or don't, not everybody thinks the same way. Religion and Government shouldn't mix. But then again you always have that person that always needs to say something for everything. And thank God for the people that think otherwise, I think it'd be a bland world is everybody agreed on the same page. Equality for everybody, that is all.

Abortion: You know, I'd be scared as f ck if I found out I were pregnant in the economical situation that I'm in. A baby should come into this world when they are planned by two loving parents that want a child, who are married and have stability. Not as a result of rape, a one night stand, or an accident. I came into this world by an accident. I'm 21 yrs old and till this day sometimes I think, if I were planned maybe our family would've been different. Of course my real parents divorced not long after, and I've been through 2 stepdads already. I'm an only child, no siblings - and yes I'm happy to be alive. My chose to keep me, and I say that in italics because she had no other choice (coming from a religious family, what are you gonna do?) but she didn't plan to have me. I feel like my mom sometimes regrets it because she had me at a very young age (16). She didn't enjoy her teenage years like I did. So it makes me think, I'm lucky to be 21 and haven't had a kid yet. I have my fun and I'm actually haven't been so responsible about it - just by mere luck I haven't gotten pregnant. But If I did, I would abort it in a heartbeat. (Say I have no heart whatsoever) The kid deserves a happy life, I don't want him to see his mother struggle to keep both of them alive. So I take all of this into consideration - and think, what if the other woman aborts doesn't have the means to support them? Pro-Choice should be an option for those who see no hope for tomorrow. It's only for the best of both of them.

Immigration: I was born in Mexico, my mother brought me into the US at a very young age (I was one) with legalized permit (Visa/passport) She stayed here for an extended time and in the meanwhile she had acquired to get me my Permanent Resident Card. So my family and I have been here in the United States legally, I carry a Social Security number and right now in the process of getting my citizenship obtain. I work here legally and live in the US legally. I believe if you come to this country legally to do the right things, go for it. By all means, enjoy the rights this country has to offer. As far as coming to this country with none of the above. Well if one's already here - best thing to do is acquire all the correct paperwork to obtain your right to be here. As far as weeding out all the immigrants as they try to do in Arizona. I'm not going to say I find it okay, but just because one looks their race, doesn't mean one should automatically assume they're Immigrants. Deport them because they're doing a crime, not because they're trying to make the best out of their lives.

Evolution: huh? I thought I came from my parents not a monkey. It shouldn't be taught in school. Only whatever is taught in Sex-ed should be legal.

Economy: I'm not expert but I believe if you work hard for your money, you deserve it. That is all.

Marijuana: I come from California, so go figure - 80% of the US's weed grown from the Golden State. It should be legalized and taxed. If it's basically legal in California, why can't it be legal in all 50 states? Not everybody is in favor for the use of Cannabis but we would have alot less problems if it were legal everywhere. Just because some kids wanted to have some fun, they shouldn't be ticketed or thrown in jail just because they were smoking a joint. Have the real criminals in jail. Don't worry about someone who was just trying to have some petty fun.

Euthanasia: Legalized it. Sometimes having the right to die would be a better option to choose rathern than living in pain and misery.

Education: I despise Arnold Scharwenegger for putting all of the state' funds' to eliminate education. With so many teachers getting laid off and extra curriculum classes getting cut off of schools. And with an Overpopulated state. Waste our tax money in something reasonable, like building more schools and hiring more teachers. When I was in HS we had 35 kids per teacher, a year after I graduated. I found out my school district had laid off 435 teachers.It was probably one of the most biggest layoffs in the state that affected the public drastically. Now Imagine how many kids per teacher there are now? (I think this belongs more in Economics) But if the state is gonna tax us, I'd like to see that money go somewhere where it is worth it.

California vs. Utah
A bit more of my background. I grew up in Southern California for 18 years. (yay!) great state to live at. It's fun, crazy and unique. California truly does offer something what you would call liberatism. I had an amazing life while being there, we follow our own beliefs and we don't give a damn what anybody thinks about us. Trust me, you would enjoy your life a WHOLE lot more if you lived in a place like California. (Not to brag) But California is one of those places that have everything to offer. People from California are crazy and the state really does carry a culture of it's own. [California= Democratic state]

Now I live in Utah= Republican state. Extremely conservative. Life is white as bread and you'll never find anything to do here. Farms and shit only lol. The legal age to smoke here or to even be considered and adult here is 19 and to drink 21. Wanna know something absurd? Beer and Liquor are sold in two separate places. Beer is sold in Gas stations where as Liquor is sold in state controlled stores and by law they need to be atleast 25 miles apart. I find that ridiculous. Everything here isn't run by the governemtn (this states claims to follow the consitution; where are in reality) It's Mormons that run this place. They don't teach Sexual Education here and if you're Mormon you're forced to go to seminary everyday of the week before you start actual school at that's at 6am. (Seminary is basically Church school) And they are attached to nearly every public school here in Utah. The say they shouldn't mix religion and government together. Well Only in Utah you'll find that otherwise. Everything is basically illegal here, and if you go against otherwise you'll get outcasted here. I'm not against Mormons (I have plenty of friends that are LDS and they're great people. But higher authorities tell the Utah Govt what to do. What to legalize, where our money goes, how they place our laws. Are taxes they take out of our wages here are ridicously high. However cost of living here is low and this place isn't overpopulated. So it does have it's pros and cons. The only reason why I stay here? My job. Otherwise I would've said asta la vista baby! (I've done it a couple of times before too.) But this time, thank God I work for an airline and by the time my year on reserve is up. I can move wherever the f#ck we operate from. That's 72 cities accross the USA and the Carribbean Islands.And trust me, when my year is over . I'll be ready to book it.

It's very difficult to adapt to here. Coming from California, this place is the complete opposite. I have no idead how I've survived 2 yrs living here already. I guess it's lifes' fate.

 

[Wehrmacht]

Evolution: huh? I thought I came from my parents not a monkey. It shouldn't be taught in school. Only whatever is taught in Sex-ed should be legal.

uhhhhhhhhh pardon?

I don't really want the entire discussion to shift to this, but unless I'm misunderstanding what you just said, evolution is an extremely important part of biology and should definitely be taught in schools. There is very little debate among the scientific community whatsoever that evolution is a legitimate scientific phenomenon (evolution is also different from common descent, but there's not much debate about it occurring either). To be blunt the entire controversy behind teaching evolution in schools is hardly a matter of political views, what it honestly comes down to is one being for or against wanting to exclude a completely valid and relevant field of scientific information from schools.

 

[inasuma]

I'm a 21 year old agnostic-atheist male. I consider myself to be moderate but I lean to the left a bit. I never had a strong inkling for politics on any social, economic or judicious level, but I maintain opinions nonetheless because everything that happens in those spectrums affects my life whether I'm aware of it or not.

I'll just go and outline the basic points you listed, Phoenix, with a few additions. lol

Marriage: If you love someone, I think it's really shitty for anyone to dictate that as being wrong. Straight, bisexual, gay, transexual; whatever you are, have at it. I used to have a small problem with things like "if you're gay, it's fine but don't hit on me." I've since become more open minded and don't care.

Abortion: My only problem with abortion is doing so once you're past the second trimester. If you're already that far along, might as well just put it up for adoption. Unless there are unexpected physical risks associated with giving birth, in which case it's fine.

Immigration: Unfortunately I'm not too well read on this subject. Should probably get on that.

Creationism/Evolution: Evolution has facts. Creationism doesn't. One clearly belongs in academia while the other in theology or general religious studies.

Economics: It's much smarter to be fiscally conservative here, in my opinion. One of the issues that we have is that we try to spend too much money doing things all around the world, while we suffer and build up mountains of debt. It's brave, but results in a faulty economy. I also wish our money would be backed by some form of gold or silver, because if history has shown us anything, it's that running on a fiat money system always results in something bad.

I'm 100% against the death penalty.

I believe everyone has the right to bear arms. I'm currently undecided on whether or not I'd be okay with concealed carry (which is lazy of me, I know, considering my state just had a whole ordeal around it; I'm in Wisconsin, btw).

Evolution: huh? I thought I came from my parents not a monkey. It shouldn't be taught in school. Only whatever is taught in Sex-ed should be legal.

This is the reason why evolution still has problems today. "We came from monkeys" is the exactly opposite logic that describes the phenomena. It states we have a common ancestry, not that we came from monkeys.

http://i.minus.com/ifGJKcXOso8h4.png

As for whether it shouldn't or should be taught in school, remember that the reason why evolution--and by extension, science--is taught so widespread in the academic environment is because it has thousands and thousands of peer reviewed studies, piles of evidence to support its claims, and countless experiments showing consistent results. Compared to, say, Creation, which has no studies (because it can't be tested), it should come as no surprise as to why it's taught in schools.

 

[The Conquerer]

A straight, black, atheist male. My views on politics skew far from Republicans' or conservatives'. I'm more inclined to share traits of Democrats or liberals. A bit of a socialist I suppose. Not very versed in politics or the economy, but I do realize what does and doesn't strike a chord.

Marriage: I'm all for gay marriage. In my opinion (though I haven't always thought this way), gays need to primarily stop being treated as immoral. In Ancient Greece and Ancient Japan, homosexuality between males wasn't at all completely uncommon, of course the practices now are strongly discouraged. Christianity's influence in government is one of the main causes for why gay marriage is frowned upon in America at least; though church and state should be separate.

Abortion: Pro-choice. After all, it's the woman's body we're talking about. If she doesn't want to have the kid, why should she be pressured to? Women who don't want children shouldn't be bogged down by intangible constraints (before they deal with real ones), and face realities of the situation. A woman, couple, or male making such a silly, easy mistake should not be condemned to a kupoed up life when they don't have to. People make mistakes, some requiring bigger consequences but this one not so much if overly conservatives can just get the sticks out of their butts and policy makers can stop trying to come up with legislation that would make it difficult to abort or prescribe contraception to women.

Economics/Education (I guess): Obviously, tax payers making $200,000 or more should not get tax breaks; not in the slightest... More impoverished counties and districts should receive ample funding, about as on par as succeeding ones, will cost more, but the payoff is better in the long run.

Evolution in schools: Yes. I can't stress how important this is. Advance in medicine and procedures to combat viruses make no sense otherwise.

Immigration: The way I see it, it's a system to be gamed. Not saying it's necessarily a good or bad thing at the moment. Most of the issues we have with illegal immigrants are told to us by politicians to focus our eyes away from something they haven't solved yet, like job loss.

 

[Nyangoro]

Male; Heterosexual; 21; American; Atheist (the past few months have been quite a turbulent/eye-opening experience for me in that regard)

I like freedom. It's cool and let's me do things. I like doing things. Limits where limits are necessary, though.

I don't label myself as conservative or liberal. Partly because I don't want to feel confined to a particular mindset, and partly because most political/economic/social tests tend to put me in the middle.

Marriage: Do whatever the hell you want.

Abortion: Eh, I don't really like it; but again, do whatever the hell you want.

Immigration: Globalization is a thing that isn't going anywhere anytime soon. So, most of the time, I say it's totally cool for diverse people groups to mingle in each other's countries. And the laws/policies should reflect that. Doesn't mean you can't be cautious towards people you're at war with, of course.

Evolution/Creationism: If the school has creationism course as a part of whatever religious offerings they give, then more power to them. For science classes though, there isn't really much of a debate to be made that evolution should be taught (try as people might).

Economics: I like capitalism. I like people being smart with their money. I prefer a free market. However, I also think that there need to be some amount of government control that makes it more difficult for companies to take advantage of (and downright destroy) their customers.

You can tell I put a lot of thought into this post.

 

[nelly <3]

uhhhhhhhhh pardon?

I don't really want the entire discussion to shit to this, but unless I'm misunderstanding what you just said, evolution is an extremely important part of biology and should definitely be taught in schools. There is very little debate among the scientific community whatsoever that evolution is a legitimate scientific phenomenon (evolution is also different from common descent, but there's not much debate about it occurring either). To be blunt the entire controversy behind teaching evolution in schools is hardly a matter of political views, what it honestly comes down to is one being for or against wanting to exclude a completely valid and relevant field of scientific information from schools.

This is the reason why evolution still has problems today. "We came from monkeys" is the exactly opposite logic that describes the phenomena. It states we have a common ancestry, not that we came from monkeys.

http://i.minus.com/ifGJKcXOso8h4.png

As for whether it shouldn't or should be taught in school, remember that the reason why evolution--and by extension, science--is taught so widespread in the academic environment is because it has thousands and thousands of peer reviewed studies, piles of evidence to support its claims, and countless experiments showing consistent results. Compared to, say, Creation, which has no studies (because it can't be tested), it should come as no surprise as to why it's taught in schools.

I understand what you both are saying, and by no means I'm against your views. It's just personally, I haven't done enough research on that subject. Honestly speaking, I wrote the whole post going off from what I know. Not a very good answer, but it's true.

But now that I've opened that link Oberon, I now remember what adaptation was based on. Sometimes I just have mixed feelings about this, I was brought up living in a extremely religious family but at the same time, I've always been the one to think a little bit different from everybody else in the household. I'd like to think maybe we were just born as we are and guided by God throughout history. But maybe, you know what? We perhaps did even evolved from a common ancestor. This probably has nothing to do with political views.. but:

Spoiler Show

God tells us that on the same day He made all animals that walk on the earth (the sixth day), He created man separately in His own image with the intent that man would have dominion over every other living thing on earth (Genesis 1:26–28). From this it is clear that there is no animal that is man’s equal, and certainly none his ancestor.

As you can tell from my other post, I'm not religious much but I do believe in God, and this probably has nothing to do with this political topic but to put in in short words, I've never given much thought to it and feelings about this subject are mixed. So I just put it that way, I meant for it to come across, I'd rather have it kept simple rather than going into it and figuring out where humans came from.

I probably don't even have a valid argument for this, but neither I don't go against your views. This is just the way I think about it; when I say I have mixed feelings about this, I really do.

As said, not a valid argument nor I'm trying to create one. So I'll just leave this right here.

 

[Solar]

I understand what you both are saying, and by no means I'm against your views. It's just personally, I haven't done enough research on that subject. Honestly speaking, I wrote the whole post going off from what I know. Not a very good answer, but it's true.

But now that I've opened that link Oberon, I now remember what adaptation was based on. Sometimes I just have mixed feelings about this, I was brought up living in a extremely religious family but at the same time, I've always been the one to think a little bit different from everybody else in the household. I'd like to think maybe we were just born as we are and guided by God throughout history. But maybe, you know what? We perhaps did even evolved from a common ancestor. This probably has nothing to do with political views.. but:

Spoiler Show

As you can tell from my other post, I'm not religious much but I do believe in God, and this probably has nothing to do with this political topic but to put in in short words, I've never given much thought to it and feelings about this subject are mixed. So I just put it that way, I meant for it to come across, I'd rather have it kept simple rather than going into it and figuring out where humans came from.

I probably don't even have a valid argument for this, but neither I don't go against your views. This is just the way I think about it; when I say I have mixed feelings about this, I really do.

As said, not a valid argument nor I'm trying to create one. So I'll just leave this right here.

Yes, and while you're entitled to them, don't you think religion should be taught by parents while the schools pass on the more scientifically held views that are actually implemented into their subjects? The fact remains that natural selection and evolution will help you with your Biology grade, and more importantly, careers and post-secondary courses that rely on such a concept. Creationism won't. As such, regardless of our personal views, we should pass on the more useful knowledge to our children via the education system. You want to tell your kids you don't believe in such? Fine, but that view shouldn't be pushed into the schooling process. That's all I have to say on the subject.

 

[Bukkake Sensei]

I understand what you both are saying, and by no means I'm against your views. It's just personally, I haven't done enough research on that subject. Honestly speaking, I wrote the whole post going off from what I know. Not a very good answer, but it's true.

But now that I've opened that link Oberon, I now remember what adaptation was based on. Sometimes I just have mixed feelings about this, I was brought up living in a extremely religious family but at the same time, I've always been the one to think a little bit different from everybody else in the household. I'd like to think maybe we were just born as we are and guided by God throughout history. But maybe, you know what? We perhaps did even evolved from a common ancestor. This probably has nothing to do with political views.. but:

Spoiler Show

As you can tell from my other post, I'm not religious much but I do believe in God, and this probably has nothing to do with this political topic but to put in in short words, I've never given much thought to it and feelings about this subject are mixed. So I just put it that way, I meant for it to come across, I'd rather have it kept simple rather than going into it and figuring out where humans came from.

I probably don't even have a valid argument for this, but neither I don't go against your views. This is just the way I think about it; when I say I have mixed feelings about this, I really do.

As said, not a valid argument nor I'm trying to create one. So I'll just leave this right here.

I like you and I respect you, but it really would be to your benefit to crack open a Biology textbook. If you're interested in learning about Darwinian evolution, I'm sure I'm only one of many people here who would be happy to give you a crash course, or I can refer you to a number of excellent educational resources that cover the subject. In the meantime though, I would ask you not to spread any more misconceptions about evolution. Anti-scientific attitudes are already enough of a problem in America.

EDIT: I guess on that note I can affirm my obvious support for teaching evolution in public schools. Considering that it's been a widely accepted fact of modern biology by the global scientific community for over a century, I find it sad that this is even a debate topic.

 

[Nostalgia]

It gives light to another issue with overly religious people. (I won't even pin it on Republicans even though I probably should.) You'd think that it's no longer an issue, but it is. There are still people in the world who believe that science is one of Satan's methods of manipulating your mind and diverting you from your faith in God.

We've established Science as the one belief system that may not provide an explanation for everything that can ever be questioned, but certainly verifies a great deal of things. It's not some proposal made by a person who claimed to be enlightened. It's entirely based on having to overcome the burden of doubt and all of its principles are based on experimentation and reason without any exceptions.

Despite this, overly religious people still think of Science as merely a view point, one not worth gaining precedence over faith-based principles that have no supporting evidence. What's even worse is when they completely miss the point and view it as something inferior, a result of the wrong kind of faith.

 

[Solar]

yo guys lets not derail the thread any further haha gimme kiss

 

[Luap]

It gives light to another issue with overly religious people. (I won't even pin it on Republicans even though I probably should.) You'd think that it's no longer an issue, but it is. There are still people in the world who believe that science is one of Satan's methods of manipulating your mind and diverting you from your faith in God.

The conversation in this thread reminds of two quotes by C.S. Lewis:

When it [The Bible] tells you to feed the hungry it does not give you lessons in cookery. When it tells you to read the Scriptures it does not give you lessons in Hebrew and Greek, or even in English grammar. It was never intended to replace or supersede the ordinary human arts and sciences: it is rather a director which will set them all to the right jobs, and a source of energy which will give them all new life, if only they will put themselves at its disposal.

If a person is to religious, it is not to replace intelligence. It is to guide it's use.

Crowns are mentioned to suggest the fact that those who are united with God in eternity share His splendour and power and joy. Gold is mentioned to suggest the timelessness of Heaven (gold does not rust) and the preciousness of it People who take these symbols literally might as well think that when Christ told us to be like doves, He meant that we were to lay eggs.

Heaven is supposedly so wonderful that it's description must be "dumbed down" because there is no way to describe it. In the same way, the creation of the Universe could not be understood by people of the time period Genesis was written, so it had to be dumbed down.

At least this is my take on the whole thing. :I

 

[Nostalgia]

And if more religious people thought this way, there wouldn't be as many issues with society.

 

[inasuma]

I understand what you both are saying, and by no means I'm against your views. It's just personally, I haven't done enough research on that subject. Honestly speaking, I wrote the whole post going off from what I know. Not a very good answer, but it's true.

But now that I've opened that link Oberon, I now remember what adaptation was based on. Sometimes I just have mixed feelings about this, I was brought up living in a extremely religious family but at the same time, I've always been the one to think a little bit different from everybody else in the household. I'd like to think maybe we were just born as we are and guided by God throughout history. But maybe, you know what? We perhaps did even evolved from a common ancestor. This probably has nothing to do with political views.. but:

Spoiler Show

As you can tell from my other post, I'm not religious much but I do believe in God, and this probably has nothing to do with this political topic but to put in in short words, I've never given much thought to it and feelings about this subject are mixed. So I just put it that way, I meant for it to come across, I'd rather have it kept simple rather than going into it and figuring out where humans came from.

I probably don't even have a valid argument for this, but neither I don't go against your views. This is just the way I think about it; when I say I have mixed feelings about this, I really do.

As said, not a valid argument nor I'm trying to create one. So I'll just leave this right here.

Probably shouldn't post this, don't want to derail the thread... so I'll keep it short. lol

I understand your confusion with the subject. I too struggled somewhat with it during my teenage years (grew up moderately Christian). The best way to find a stance on the subject is to educate yourself on it. The theory of evolution is not just a "theory" by itself; it's a general point of view. It's quite different so I won't deny that trying to understand it will be hard. Berkeley has a great portion of their website dedicated to the subject of evolution which you can check out. Very easy to swallow and hey, it's free.