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The premise behind the test seems to be flawed...



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ShinobiMuramasa

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Unless I'm missing something, the idea that Sora and Riku should relearn how to use the Keyblade through this test didn't make much sense. Yen Sid said that they needed to forget their self-taught Keyblade knowledge and learn from a Master how to use it. Well Yen Sid did not give them any instruction and essentially the whole game they self-teach themselves again how to use the Keyblade. What was the point?

Flowmotion certainly isn't a Keyblade technique since it is first demonstrated by Neku. Was the only point of this for Sora and Riku to shift to using the Command Deck system? Even so, it just seems like they spent the game self-teaching themselves how to use the Keyblade again.

If the whole point really was the Command Deck and even if we assume Sora and Riku got a crash course in its use before hand, it makes even less sense to send them on this journey that will impact the final battle with Xehanort gimped of all of their abilities.

Also, I want to believe that the severe lack of commands in this game compared to BBS is just due to the short development time the team had and not an indication of the characters' abilities. If it is the latter, Sora seems significantly weaker in this game than even in KH1 due to the loss or change of so many abilities, such as Ragnarok becoming a Dream Eater team attack and the complete loss of Zantetsuken despite him having it in some form every game.

Overall the logic of the training seems flawed as the purpose was for them to be taught by a Master the proper way to use the Keyblade, not replace their self-taught style with another self-taught style. There's nothing to indicate that they received any training before the test began and if they did, it would invalidate one of the main points of the journey as a training session.

Is there something I'm missing?
 
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There's nothing you're missing, they just never thought it through.

This is why I think they should have been able to contact Yen Sid (and have conversations with him in real time as opposed to flashbacks). He could have been instructing them on how to use commands, dream eaters, etc.
 

Evello

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There's nothing you're missing, they just never thought it through.

This is why I think they should have been able to contact Yen Sid (and have conversations with him in real time as opposed to flashbacks). He could have been instructing them on how to use commands, dream eaters, etc.
I agree with you so much. I ranted to a friend the other day about how much the constant flashbacks annoyed me, and how much better they would have been if they were told in real time. That would have cleared up a lot of confusion about what was happening early on, and since we would be witnessing things in chronological order we might have even gotten to see how they got to DI. It also could have spread out some of the early cutscenes.
 

Arkrend

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The whole flashback system seemed like they were just trying to make mementos be useful for more than just summaries of the previous games. All it really accomplished was making the game's plot feel disjointed.

Instead of just starting out in Mysterious Tower, and training a little bit, Riku and Sora are flung into this battle against Ursula in Destiny Island's dream self.

The whole thing about them having to relearn how to reuse the Keyblade is just a contrived excuse for Nomura to use young Sora one last time so KHII Sora will still feel fresh in KHIII.

- Sora being young again was only referenced a single time in the entire game. "What happened to my clothes? Must be some of Yen Sid's Magic."

- Sora and Riku never actually learned anything from Yen Sid during the game. It would have been nice if a dream version of Yen Sid had appeared throughout the game to explain the various mechanics. Instead Yen Sid teaches them literally nothing about how to fight.

It's a side effect of a weak plot point. My advice is to just handwave it, and understand this is just their explanation for why they're saving KHII Sora until the next console game.
 

ajmrowland

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Here's how I see it.

The test was not about relearning how to use the keyblade, so much as it was about the powers that came with it. It's very contrived, in the end. Yen Sid didnt contact either because he couldnt keep track of people in the sleeping worlds, or he deliberately chose to have faith. Of course, the whole "clean slate" thing could've been simply a formality rather than real training, as Sora and Riku are more than capable of fighting even in the beginning of the game.

As for the flashbacks, I'd have traded those in for a 20 minute opening of the game in a heartbeat cuz it really just sets things up better than cutting from the flashback with Xehanort and Braig to the battle with Phantom Ursula in the past. I practically invented a whole set of scenes myself, including the 3 friends on DI, RE:Coded's secret ending, and leaving DI and of course all those lectures. Maybe a tiny bit of gameplay on DI would've been nice to keep people from being bored, but still.
 

Sorakh212

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While the test is somewhat vague in terms of what you have to do, this is very apparent in BBS, I think the main objective was pretty clear which is that of learning how to act under certain circumstances. That and there are also a few points that indicate otherwise more or less that there's more to the test than one would initially think such as what's really going on with Xehanort and all of his forms and how it was more than just a test. This is obvious especially when you compare it to that of the test in BBS. Put simply there's more to it than you think due to many variables.
 

Marx15

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Also, I want to believe that the severe lack of commands in this game compared to BBS is just due to the short development time the team had and not an indication of the characters' abilities. If it is the latter, Sora seems significantly weaker in this game than even in KH1 due to the loss or change of so many abilities, such as Ragnarok becoming a Dream Eater team attack and the complete loss of Zantetsuken despite him having it in some form every game.

You do know that Zantetsuken is a command in the game right.....?

Only Riku can use it though. It's supposed to be like how Terra was the only one who could use it in BBS.


And I felt like there was a good amount of commands. You just have to use the DE to acquire them for the most part.
 

Taochan

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There are a ton of commands in DDD, but you just need to work harder to get them than you did in BBS.
 

ShinobiMuramasa

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I completely agree with you gleandporn, Ragnell 37, and Arkrend. The flashback system seemed tacked on and underutilized. Yen Sid should have appeared in some form throughout the story to give instructions on how to use the Keyblade since that was the point. But then if they had contact with him then he would have known what was going and that would have hindered Xehanort's plans. So the relearning the Keyblade through the instruction of a Master plot point was made to suffer...

You do know that Zantetsuken is a command in the game right.....?

Only Riku can use it though. It's supposed to be like how Terra was the only one who could use it in BBS.


And I felt like there was a good amount of commands. You just have to use the DE to acquire them for the most part.

I am aware that Zantetsuken is in the game as a Riku only command. I was referring specifically to Sora through my referencing of Ragnarok and Zantetsuken. I know that Riku was given it to make him more similar to Terra in terms of Command selection. But as I said, Sora has had that in all of the previous games, so its removal now was nonsensical. There is no reason why Riku and Sora both could not have it.

About the number of commands, I wouldn't say that DDD has a "ton" of them, but I suppose there is a fair amount. Here's the break down:

BBS:
40 Combat Commands
57 Magic Commands

DDD:
34 Combat Commands
44 Magic Commands

DDD loses in both Combat and Magic Commands. That doesn't even take into account the Action Commands, Finishers, and Shootlocks that BBS had over DDD. I'll leave D-Link abilities aside since the Dream Eater abilities compensate for those. Flowmotion does add to DDD, but certainly not enough to compensate for the lack of Finishing and Shootlock Commands.
 

ajmrowland

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While the test is somewhat vague in terms of what you have to do, this is very apparent in BBS, I think the main objective was pretty clear which is that of learning how to act under certain circumstances. That and there are also a few points that indicate otherwise more or less that there's more to the test than one would initially think such as what's really going on with Xehanort and all of his forms and how it was more than just a test. This is obvious especially when you compare it to that of the test in BBS. Put simply there's more to it than you think due to many variables.
uhg, Why didnt I think of this? Of course, that could constitute as "faith". Of course, it's about how to act like a true keyblade master.
 

Reagan Rayden

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To be fair we've never seen Eraqus train Terra, Ven, or Aqua directly either.
 

ShardofTruth

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But it was heavly implied they were trained, which is not the case for Sora and Riku. Master Eraqus wouldn't have sent Terra and Aqua on a journey to fight the Unverse if they had to figure out the way of the keyblade along the way, they already know the basic commands and systems (and already had their finals for that matter).

That's why I agree that is is another weak point of DDD, the story feels very rushed compared to the other games, especially the beginning.
 

Decrith

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I'd like to say that you guys are thinking too much about the gameplay. Nomura needed a reason to reset the skills Sora and Riku already know, and the command deck was a good way to start off. Now if you look at it at Sora and Riku's perspective, NOT YOUR ON-SCREEN perspective, THEY aren't choosing from a list of skills they know. If you look at it that they, they basically learned to use the keyblade differently by not relying on momentum, where in KH1 & KH2 magic had to be used 2~3 times before the next one becomes ultra powerful, or in KH1 where Ragnarok needed dozens of attacks before it can be used.

In the game, it pretty much tells you, when they want to use a skill, they can do so whenever they want to, and probably the time we have to wait for the skill to recharge is simply for balancing issues. Thats it for me, don't think too much on it.

And besides, when KH3 comes out, it will be the same thing, starting off with basic commands and skills
 

ShinobiMuramasa

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I was under the impression that Sora and Riku had been training with Yin Sid for some time after the events of Kingdom Hearts Coded and they were taking the MOM to put their new found skills to the test. For all we know, 3D could be set several months after the last game.

What is it that gave you this impression? Based on the cutscenes and flashbacks, especially the flashback "The Mark of Mastery Exam", it seems that Sora and Riku received all of their instruction from one conversation, which is shown to us in parts through several flashbacks, and began the exam immediately after. In the flashback, "The Mark of Mastery Exam", Yen Sid explains the situation, the need for them to forget their self-taught styles, what the Mark of Mastery Exam is and its purpose, and closed by saying that the exam would then begin. Thus, their relearning of the Keyblade was to occur during the exam. That in itself is problematic as they are being tested on something as they are learning it.

This game could indeed take place months after Coded, but that doesn't mean that Sora and Riku spent the interim between the games training.
 

Sephiroth0812

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DDD only takes place mere weeks after coded, which in itself took place only shortly after KH2.

Besides of the fact that you're looking way too deeply into the stuff the purpose of the actual test was only superficially about the "Keyblabade skills", the main goal was to open seven keyholes of sleep in order to gain the power to awaken sleeping hearts (aka the ability needed to bring back the suffering ones) and bring back the still sleeping worlds before returning to Yen Sid's tower.
Seeing that Sora did accomplish almost every goal just as Riku did except the last one (he also opened seven Keyholes), there must have been other conditions that figured into Yen Sid's Judgement and the entire premise of the test.

These were nonetheless the tasks given for the exam and by fulfilling them they would be true masters, not by learning to swing their keyblades right instead of left, that was just an accessary part.
The "proper way" for Keyblade wieling obviously translates gameplay wise to using the command deck instead of the stupid simple hack n' slash we had in KH2, and they obviously accomplish that through "learning by doing" with the help of the Dream Eaters.

In the very end though, the "learn new ways to use the Keyblade" was just Nomura's excuse this time to let the characters start on Level 1 again and the further excuse to use the model of KH 1-Sora yet again.
 
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