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The Soul



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TwilightSora

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A soul is seen by many as the complex of human attributes that manifests as consciousness, thought, feeling, and will, regarded as distinct from the physical body. Overlooking the scientific aspects that make up these traits of a person, do you think a soul exists? Some people believe that you have to believe in some form of god to believe in the soul. But I want to get away from that and discuss its more natural existance, away from god. Do you think a soul decides who you are?
 

quitejaded

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That's ridiculous mandating belief in a God in order ot have belief in the soul.

Logically, they don't. But "spirituality" gives hope and happiness to a lot of people. And whether they believe they are feeding emotions or an actual soul doesn't matter.

If a soul does exsist, and by my definition, it does not define who you are at all.
 

Savior of Dawn

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It depends on how you define 'Soul'.

If you define Soul as the magical source of a living organisim, then no, Souls do not exist.

However, if you define it as I do, it is the individual personality of a single living organisim, what defines them as as their own self. Nothing can be exactly the same, which applies to everything, including our minds, thinking patterns, and personalities.
 

Full Metal

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Dark_Kairi said:
[.]I believe everyone has a soul.
Weather it is linked to heven - hell or god - satan is beyond me.
Even though it can't be proven scintificly, anything is possiable..]


i also believe whether in hell or hell. earth or sky there is a soul even if you don't see it or feel it. nor god or the devil himself can rip that away from you.only if you stop believing in it and let it go and be taken.
 

Phoenix

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Then it can't be proven, and it remains as real as invisible pink unicorns.
 

Ysu

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We lose 21 grams when we die. What could that be? A soul leaving a body maybe?

Savior of Dawn said:
However, if you define it as I do, it is the individual personality of a single living organisim, what defines them as as their own self. Nothing can be exactly the same, which applies to everything, including our minds, thinking patterns, and personalities.

I like his definition, I agree with that.

As for God, we can't prove God does exists and we can't prove God doesn't exist.

Pheonix said:
Then it can't be proven, and it remains as real as invisible pink unicorns.

They're real when I'm drunk, and if I believe they're real, then they're real to me, aren't they? Its the same thing when it comes to "superstitious nonsense."
 

Phoenix

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So jsut because your brain imagines them while there is a drug in your brrain, it's real?

Btw, provide proof for your 21 gram theory, and also provide proof those are not the excrements leaving the body when the digestive system relaxes.
 

Cloudy_Card

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something like a 'soul' is an intangible thing and a concept, theres no way to prove it exists or doesnt exist. i believe in the existence of a soul, of some sort of force similar to it, but theres no way to say there isnt, or is, such a thing.
 

Phoenix

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Then I repeat myself, it's as real as invisible pink unicorns.
 

Noblethe3rd

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something like a 'soul' is an intangible thing and a concept, theres no way to prove it exists or doesnt exist. i believe in the existence of a soul, of some sort of force similar to it, but theres no way to say there isnt, or is, such a thing.
So you are saying that you don't know anything about what you are talking about correct? That or you simply are not taking a stance... Make a stand, state your opinion, this is intel! So what if you might get your intelligence insulted? Life goes on. Provide or observe those are you choices.


They're real when I'm drunk, and if I believe they're real, then they're real to me, aren't they? Its the same thing when it comes to "superstitious nonsense."
So you are saying because you believe they exist they do exist? Isn't that a little arrogant to assume that whatever you believe to be real is real?
 

Hidden

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TwilightSora said:
A soul is seen by many as the complex of human attributes that manifests as consciousness, thought, feeling, and will
Alternative theory- consciousness, thought, feeling, and will manifest themselves/itself as the soul.

TwilightSora said:
regarded as distinct from the physical body.
I've always found that a curiosity. Why?

TwilightSora said:
Overlooking the scientific aspects that make up these traits of a person, do you think a soul exists?
"Overlooking the scientific aspects"? Why? Are they necessarily mutually negating?

TwilightSora said:
Some people believe that you have to believe in some form of god to believe in the soul.
Examples?

TwilightSora said:
Do you think a soul decides who you are?
That strikes me as an odd question, or, at least, an odd method of phrasing it. Most current conceptions of the "soul" use the term as practically synonymous with "self". Along these lines, it would be asking almost- "Do you think who you are decides who you are?" What would you mean by this question then?

Dark_Kairi said:
Even though it can't be proven scintificly, anything is possiable..

Is it really?

Phoenix said:
Superstitious nonsense.
Concise as always...

quitejaded said:
But "spirituality" gives hope and happiness to a lot of people.
Belief in the existance of a soul and "spirituality" are one and the same?

quitejaded said:
And whether they believe they are feeding emotions or an actual soul doesn't matter.
What would the difference be I wonder?

quitejaded said:
If a soul does exsist, and by my definition, it does not define who you are at all.
What's your definition?

Savior of Dawn said:
If you define Soul as the magical source of a living organisim, then no, Souls do not exist.

However, if you define it as I do, it is the individual personality of a single living organisim, what defines them as as their own self.
I see no reason to hold inherent individuality as any more plausible than a magical source of living organisms however.

Riku's Dawn said:
It isn't tangible.
Tangible=Existent?

Phoenix said:
Then it can't be proven, and it remains as real as invisible pink unicorns.
In which case, a great majority of "existence" can be classified on the same level as invisible pink unicorns.

Noblethe3rd said:
Make a stand, state your opinion, this is intel!
That does not necessarily equate intelligent discussion however.

Noblethe3rd said:
So you are saying because you believe they exist they do exist? Isn't that a little arrogant to assume that whatever you believe to be real is real?
[blatant advertising]Isn't there a thread about this titled Existence? Which no one has responded to my last post on the matter yet?[/blatant advertising]
 

Hidden

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Phoenix, you should know better than to allow me full reign on the subject of existence with the only constraint present being "elaborate".


Consider what can be proven to exist- the concrete. You express this sentiment yourself in your using your invisible pink unicorn (didn't it used to be an omnipotent green cat?) as a rebuttal to the previous poster's comment that the soul is intangible.

Thereby, we may draw the conclusion that only the tangible may exist- at least on a level above that of invisible pink unicorns. Initially, this sounds rather reasonable to some, as it eliminates from "qualified existence" such abstract figures as the soul and also the great majority of religious beliefs. However, that is not the extent of it. Religion no longer exists. I don't mean only to say religious beliefs no longer exist (they don't either), but religion itself now ceases to function and exert an influence upon the world- after all, how can that which does not exist exert influence? It is not concrete and it is not tangible. One might reply that this is quite true, it is simply the belief which exerts an influence through the mistaken reality of religion (I believe you've made similar statements in previous discussion), but that doesn't really work either- belief doesn't exist. It's not tangible, it's not concrete, it's not made of atoms or quarks, you can't prove the existence of belief. It's abstract and intangible, and, therefore, does not exist.

I really wish I could remember this quote accurately (and who gave it), but the essential message may be abridged as follows:
"Atoms and empty space are the only things which truly exist in our universe; everything else is just opinion."
I quite like this quote, and employ it (when I correctly remember it of course) quite often in debate- but it does beg the question...

does opinion exist?

Let's take another example of intangible nonexistence- gravity. Gravity, by terms of what is tangible and what is concrete, does not exist. Why? Because we don't even know what gravity is- we just know what "it" supposedly does. The Law of Gravity states, in more or less accurate terms, something to the effect that bodies of mass have an attraction to each other. We do not see, feel, sense, or measure gravity- all we can detect are "its" effects. What is "it"? No idea. How can such a loose and entirely inconceivable "abstraction" exist? The effects of gravity are concrete- they exist. Gravity, unfortunately, does not.

And then we come to the nature of "ontological science" itself, and I won't even bother starting on that tangent here.

For continued discussion, take the matter to the "Existence" thread, which is either still on the first page or possibly the second of Intel.


And now, to return to topic. What would your definition of a "soul" (existent or nonexistent notwithstanding) be?
 
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Dredger

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Ok hidden i have read your posts. You at first seemed well versed in theology and matters of science. Sadly I realize you are either joking or listening to your psychology teacher's lecture without ever truly developing an unbiased opinion of your own. Your first post was filled with quotes and your response to each was a vague statement at best and simply a question to most. Your "nothing exists" post made me laugh. To say something does not exist simply on the grounds that you can not "see" it is enough to make anyone cachinnate. The easiest way to impugn your argument is a simple matter of the mind. Where did your opinions come from? From your thoughts would perhaps be the most agreeable answer. Well, your thoughts could be considered your mind as well. Correct? I have never seen your mind, or my mind for that matter. Would your mind be your brain? Ah, yes; a tangible connection between physical and non-physical matter. But, your brain is in fact just a motor, an elctrical control center for the body which servers its purpose of body movement through electrical impulses to stimulate muscles. Now where does your brain create thought? Thought comes from electricity? Answer that question and I will believe you about your "anything that can't be seen does not infact exist" theory. Until that time comes i will disprove your theory. Your thoughts can not be seen yet you "think" all the time. If you didn't you would not have posted. Thoughts are not made up of atoms, which we all know make up "everything" in the universe. You can not "see" thoughts by any means yet we know thoughts are "real" only by experiencing the effects. So there it is, plain and simple, if you can not see it it may very well still exist.

Back to the original purpose of this post. I was brought up in a religous family, so instilled in my mind was the theory of God. A soul is your conscience, a source of morale or ethical judgements. Depending on your choices in life your soul would ascend into heaven or descend to hell. In the end a soul's existence all depends on your philosophical and/or theological beliefs. I say a soul does exist. If not what do we strive for? If this world is all that there is in life how sad is that? This is the best we get no matter how hard we toil to improve and do "good". It is to sad for me to belive.
 

Noblethe3rd

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I was brought up in a religous family, so instilled in my mind was the theory of God. A soul is your conscience, a source of morale or ethical judgements. Depending on your choices in life your soul would ascend into heaven or descend to hell. In the end a soul's existence all depends on your philosophical and/or theological beliefs
Most religious organizations believe that the soul is an exostential part of the human that is eternal, not your morale or ethical judgements. The soul often times is reference to your being after death. The modern, more scientific analysis appears to explain it the way you do. Religion and modern conceptions are 2 different things Dredger.

If not what do we strive for?
Knowledge. Power. Material possessions. Self-sastisfaction. Pleasure. A feeling of belonging. A feeling of accomplishment. There are many other things that people could strive for instead of maintaining ones ethical beliefs so that the "soul" would go to heaven.
 

Milky

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TwilightSora said:
A soul is seen by many as the complex of human attributes that manifests as consciousness, thought, feeling, and will, regarded as distinct from the physical body. Overlooking the scientific aspects that make up these traits of a person, do you think a soul exists? Some people believe that you have to believe in some form of god to believe in the soul. But I want to get away from that and discuss its more natural existance, away from god. Do you think a soul decides who you are?

Have you ever read about Chakrams? There are 7 forms of Chakram ( The Spiritual Energy level in yourself)

  1. Root Chakra: You are a normal human being. You go around in everday life as everyone else.
  2. Sacral Chakra: This form of Chakram is usually obtained without meditation. It is the time when a Human begins to feel Emotions as Random Occurances. Sexuality is in your mind at this time.
  3. Solar Plexus Chakra: You are near the midpoint of Higher self. Self Power and Will are traits of a person with this chakram.
  4. Heart Chakra: Associated with Love and Relationships
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The next three Chakra are the last three steps to Thousandfold enlightenment.
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  • Throat Chakra ( 5th ): Hightened hearing. Communication and self expression are a simple task
  • Third Eye Chakra ( 6th ): Obtained with Rigorous meditation. Intuition and Wisdom are traits of a person with this chakram. A 'Sixth sense' is associated with this chakram.
  • Crown ( 7th ): Last Chakra. Thousand Fold enlightenment. You have reached your full spiritual potential.
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meanings of the 7 chakrams in sanskrit translated to english
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  1. Root Chakra;Muladhara-Root or support
  2. Sacral Chakra; Svadhisthana- sweetness
  3. Solar Plexus Chakra;Manipura- Lustrous Gem
  4. Heart Chakra; Anabata- Unstruck
  5. Throat Chakra;Vishuddha-Purification
  6. Third Eye Chakra;Ajna- To percive, to know
  7. Crown Chakra; Sahasrara- Thousandfold.
In hinduism. That is basically what spiritualism is. Reaching full potential. The spirit is closely associated with the Soul. To me they are one and the same.
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ZOMG my biggest Intel post ever. Yay for me.
 
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