The treatment of women in this series

[galaxystars]

I mean, that's a fair point and I'm not disputing it outright, but... how much has Kairi actually done herself? She did have some nice moments, like changing Sora back from a Heartless, seeing Riku even when he looked like Ansem, and even keeping him from running off during KH2. She trains in KH3- but we really don't see much of the fruits of her training before she gets murdered by Xehanort, and even then, she kinda jobs during the Saix fight.

She does, yes, guide Sora back during the Final World segment but that once again highlights my issue. Lack of Kairi doing meaningful things or showing emotional strength outside of her relation to Sora.

Compare that to Aqua, who shows both great combat skill AND emotional strength. Time and time again, she's put through arduous situations and persists. It was really only KH3 that made her waver so much... and I'm still not fond of how KH3 handled her either. Seriously, one little blast from Ansem SoD was all it took? And she couldn't even use her magic without her Keyblade? I said it before, but Days!Xion was fine casting magic barehanded. :P

The reason so many people see Kairi as useless is because the games REPEATEDLY damsel her, to the point where it's just insulting. KH3D hyped her up in its secret ending, and for what? It's just a repeat trend. Kairi has not been developed well in the SLIGHTEST, and I say that as someone who actually likes Kairi and feels she has a lot of untapped potential.

I don't think she's useless, but I think she's been very poorly utilized.

But you just listed what she did. Yes,it's not mostly killing people with a giant key,but it's still a lot. Kairi has her main role, and that is to be emotional support and Sora's love. Sora would have stayed a heartless if it wasn't for Kairi then the series would be over. She also saved him from permanent death in this game. You want your violent badasses? Their names are Aqua and Larxene. Namine and Kairi are never going to be that kind. Why is that wrong? Why does every girl in this series have to be the same?

Larxene for example is more masculine in her personality and deed. Kairi and Xion are much more feminine in personality,but will get violent if they need to. Namine is completely feminine and therefore fights from a emotional standpoint. Aqua's personality leans more toward the masculine,but she's still more feminine then Larxene.

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"Worse yet she didn't put up a fight when Xemnas kidnapped her or Xehanort kills her (yes, she was unconscious, but they could have had her constrained struggling to free herself or fighting him alone clearly out matched instead)".

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As for Xenmas he is the strongest Nobody in the series(born from a master and another very close to one) so what exactly was she supposed to do against him? He curb stomped Axel to,but everyone seems to be okay with that. It's only when it's Kairi that it suddenly becomes a problem. As for Xehanort, as you yourself stated, she was unconscious. I've never even seen Sora fight in a coma. However, even if she was awake what could she possibly do against MASTER Xehanort? The big bad of the series who also gave other masters and wielders a run for their money?

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"Except she is. The game goes and shows her being able to hold her own against Xion and Saix. That was why her and Lea were training in a place without time. They trained and became very strong fighters. They certainly were not experienced Keyblade wielders but they were there to fight in a war and came prepared".

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Exactly. She was holding her own against Xion and Saix. So what's the issue? She can be violent when she needs to,but that's not her natural disposition.

"That is already insinuating that women cannot be strong or take on “traditionally” male roles without being considered masculine."

Well honestly that's exactly what I'm saying. Wanting to fight is a natural male quality. You know testosterone and all that. A woman's natural instinct is to not fight, and if we do it's only because we need to. Kairi wants nothing more than to sit at home and be with Sora romantically. Most woman are naturally like that in real life so why should game characters be different when they are supposed to be based on humans?

It's evil beyond her control that has her on the battlefield. Kairi herself doesn't want to be there. Japan is bigger on traditional gender roles, and so their characters from games to anime reflect that.

Like you said, she can be feminine and badass. Nobody disagrees with that.

I disagree. All the female hate I've seen for this series,but especially when it comes to Kairi, seems to want to take the feminine away completely and only leave the masculine badass.

 

[.:Mega:.]

If Kairi didn't want to be on the battlefield, then why would she be so adamant about wanting to fight in both KH2 and Kh3, though?

And like... her role being more or less just Sora's love interest is really shallow? Again, the problem is she so seldom interacts with ANYONE besides Sora. And I'm sorry, but I just don't like when a character's sole purpose is to be someone's love interest. :/

She didn't even get to interact with Riku, her other best friend. She has so few friendships of her own. So few goals and aspirations of her own. She just feels like an accessory to Sora at this point, and as someone who liked the pep and spunk she showed in KH1, seeing her steadily downgrade to where she's at in KH3 was a huge bummer.

And again, the KH2 manga proves that good Kairi characterization that balances her portrayal is possible.

(Side note: Really not fond of arguments based on gender stereotypes. It really doesn't excuse shallow characterization and lack of agency, IMO.)

 

[AdrianXXII]

Spoiler Show

As for Xenmas he is the strongest Nobody in the series(born from a master and another very close to one) so what exactly was she supposed to do against him? He curb stomped Axel to,but everyone seems to be okay with that. It's only when it's Kairi that's it's suddenly a problem. As for Xehanort, as you yourself stated, she was unconscious. I've never even seen Sora fight in a coma. However, even if she was awake what could she possibly do against MASTER Xehanort? The big bad of the series who also gave other masters and wielders a run for their money?

Um... I don't see how Xemnas being the strongest Nobody justifies her not even struggling. Usually if a guy or girl is in life threatening danger they struggle and fight to survive that's kind of instinctive. So she should have been kicking and screaming trying to swing her keyblade at him or anything to get away. No one is saying she should have been able to one-shot Xemnas, him taking her would be less of an issue if she, you know didn't just stand there.

Also her being unconscious was a creative choice they could have gone any route. Having her constraint and struggling against it would have done more and been more powerful than having her unconscious and then killed, in my opinion at least.

It's evil beyond her control that has her on the battlefield. Kairi herself doesn't want to be there. Japan is bigger on traditional gender roles, and so their characters from games to anime reflect that.

Actually Kairi is only there, be cause she herself wanted to be there, this game and the 0.2 make that very clear.

And while yes Japan is big on the traditional gender roles, that doesn't mean we can't say "Hey I don't really like that, especially for this character you framed and set up in this way."[COLOR=#494949][/COLOR]

I disagree. All the female hate I've seen in this series,but especially when it comes to Kairi, seems to want to take the feminine away completely and only leave the masculine badass.

No we just want to see her do what she set out to do. From the first game she's been going on about how she wants to go with Sora and later how she doesn't want to be left behind and fight at his side.

Also how does her being a competent fighter make her masculine. She still is crafty, caring, romantic, likes pink and dresses and all that traditionally feminine jazz. People can have various attributes and skills, associated with both feminine and masculine traits.

Plus as stated before she's shown the desire to fight and defend others at multiple point in this series, just until now she lacked the means.[COLOR=#494949][/COLOR]

If Kairi didn't want to be on the battlefield, then why would she be so adamant about wanting to fight in both KH2 and Kh3, though?

And like... her role being more or less just Sora's love interest is really shallow? Again, the problem is she so seldom interacts with ANYONE besides Sora. And I'm sorry, but I just don't like when a character's sole purpose is to be someone's love interest. :/

She didn't even get to interact with Riku, her other best friend. She has so few friendships of her own. So few goals and aspirations of her own. She just feels like an accessory to Sora at this point, and as someone who liked the pep and spunk she showed in KH1, seeing her steadily downgrade to where she's at in KH3 was a huge bummer.

And again, the KH2 manga proves that good Kairi characterization that balances her portrayal is possible.

(Side note: Really not fond of arguments based on gender stereotypes. It really doesn't excuse shallow characterization and lack of agency, IMO.)

I agree, she really needs more screen time and interactions with others, especially with Riku, her other best friend. It does feel like as the series goes on she's being defanged. When the booklet to KH1 described her as a Tomboy I could believe it, but now there's no trace of that being the case.

The manga does a way better job at rounding out her character and showing us different sides of her.

 

[VoidGear.]

I think terms like "masculine badass" sum up the entirety of the problem pretty well.
Big surprise, but if women were ever ALLOWED to be badass, then we could stop using the term as something that is apparently "masculine".
Cause and effect.

 

[kirabook]

Aqua is the most feminine badass in the whole series. She has side skirts that flow around her beautifully when she moves, but looks like a dress when she's still. She fights like a well trained ballerina. She likes arts and crafts. Based on the novels, she likes baking sweets. When she summons her blade, there are flower petals. She herself is very beautiful. Aqua is emotional. Aqua is level headed. Aqua is confident. Aqua is feminine.

No one in the fandom is demanding Aqua be more "masculine" or whatever you're talking about. When people want Aqua to be badass, they want to see her take down her foes with her fancy dance moves like she's ALWAYS done since her conception.

Being feminine does NOT equate to being a damsel in distress. Being feminine does not equate to being weak. Being feminine does not mean you need to be rescued. Being feminine does not mean you have to be soft and gentle. You can be strong and still be feminine. You can be tough and still be feminine. You can fight back, defend yourself, and protect others while still being feminine.

The Kingdom Hearts fandom has a female character majority loves (Aqua) and it's not wrong to wish Kairi gets similar or better treatment with her own twist. There's not one female original character in KH that is even close to being depicted as masculine (unless you count the fact that Marluxia was originally a woman, lolol) and whether that's a good or bad thing is your opinion.

People demanding that Kairi be written better or given a moment to show off her strength (whether it's fighting in battle or showing off whatever princess of heart power she supposedly has) has nothing to do with the shallow interpretation of masculine vs feminine spin you're putting on it.

Namine's itty bitty role in this game not only gave me feels, but also really demonstrated Namine's strengths. Namine doesn't fight. But boyo when her friends are in trouble, especially Sora, she'll do the impossible to make sure he succeeds (in a way that we can somewhat understand because memories and chains and all that, an established thing in the series) I hope moving forward in the series, Namine replaces Yen Sid as their 'oracle' kind of character because she always seems to know what the heck she's talking about and gets.stuff.done.

How the heck did Yen Sid getting off his chair for the first time in a bajillion years managed to leave more of an impression on me than Kairi's role is beyond me. You telling me Kairi couldn't have pulled off something similar with her Princess of Heart powers or something? Anything?

 

[AdrianXXII]

Namine's itty bitty role in this game not only gave me feels, but also really demonstrated Namine's strengths. Namine doesn't fight. But boyo when her friends are in trouble, especially Sora, she'll do the impossible to make sure he succeeds (in a way that we can somewhat understand because memories and chains and all that, an established thing in the series) I hope moving forward in the series, Namine replaces Yen Sid as their 'oracle' kind of character because she always seems to know what the heck she's talking about and gets.stuff.done.

I'd love for her to start taking that role, maybe she could become Yen Sid's apprentice, she is after all a "witch", why not lean into that and have her be the gang's informant either in person or over the gummiphone?

How the heck did Yen Sid getting off his chair for the first time in a bajillion years managed to leave more of an impression on me than Kairi's role is beyond me. You telling me Kairi couldn't have pulled off something similar with her Princess of Heart powers or something? Anything?

I was thinking something similar. That would have been a great moment to give us a example of what a PoH can do, their ability is supposably to repel and surpress darkness, well we could have used that right then.

Also it would have given her a pay off for the build up. It wouldn't have been quite what i would have wanted, but would have been way better than what we got, by miles.

 

[Elysium]

Kairi in particular might not be good at battles,but she is not useless in the slightest. It seems our western sensibilities has the unfortunate mindset that in order for a woman to be worthy she must be a man with breasts.

There is nothing wrong with being traditionally feminine and badass. They are not mutually exclusive. Also being badass does not have to always mean how good you are at being violent. It can also mean emotional strength, and I think Kairi has always brought that very well.

I'm not sure what that means at all, aside from an attempt to be patronizing.

Aqua is "worthy," and she is not a man with breasts. Larxene, Namine, and Xion are all "worthy" without being men with breasts. Disney--the main focus of this series--is filled to the brim with characters who are both feminine and badass (Elsa, Ariel, Megara, Maleficent, Belle, etc.). The problem is that Kairi's only role in this series has been as an object to drive other (male) characters' actions, with few to no actions made by the character herself. I'd go further and say the character is an example of fake feminism, in that the character openly expresses dissatisfaction with the fact that she is always left behind and never gets to do anything, but in actuality is still left behind and gets nothing to do.

Moreover, you're assuming the words "feminine" and "active" are opposed concepts, which is false.

Well honestly that's exactly what I'm saying. Wanting to fight is a natural male quality. You know testosterone and all that. A woman's natural instinct is to not fight, and if we do it's only because we need to. Kairi wants nothing more than to sit at home and be with Sora romantically. Most woman are naturally like that in real life so why should game characters be different when they are supposed to be based on humans?

For one thing--Kairi has regularly said she does NOT want to stay on the island while Sora and Riku go out, have adventures, and risk their lives leaving her out of the loop.

For another, you are not in a position to speak on behalf of "most women" and what you assume they would want.

Thirdly, you're confusing biology and nature with gendered, cultural socialization--the opposite of what is natural.

 

[galaxystars]

I'm not sure what that means at all, aside from an attempt to be patronizing.

Aqua is "worthy," and she is not a man with breasts. Larxene, Namine, and Xion are all "worthy" without being men with breasts. Disney--the main focus of this series--is filled to the brim with characters who are both feminine and badass (Elsa, Ariel, Megara, Maleficent, Belle, etc.). The problem is that Kairi's only role in this series has been as an object to drive other (male) characters' actions, with few to no actions made by the character herself. I'd go further and say the character is an example of fake feminism, in that the character openly expresses dissatisfaction with the fact that she is always left behind and never gets to do anything, but in actuality is still left behind and gets nothing to do.

Moreover, you're assuming the words "feminine" and "active" are opposed concepts, which is false.



For one thing--Kairi has regularly said she does NOT want to stay on the island while Sora and Riku go out, have adventures, and risk their lives leaving her out of the loop.

For another, you are not in a position to speak on behalf of "most women" and what you assume they would want.

Thirdly, you're confusing biology and nature with gendered, cultural socialization--the opposite of what is natural.

And who's denying feminine and badass can't coexist? Not I. That's my argument that it can. On top of that badass does not always have to mean violence. It can mean emotional strength to. The view seems to be that if a female character is mostly emotionally badass that,that is a problem. I don't see it as such. Kairi will never be Aqua and that's perfectly fine. Kairi does her role as support and the romantic lead very well. I don't want a bunch of clones for my female characters. Aqua is Aqua. Xion is Xion. Larxene is Larxene. Namine is Namine. Kairi is Kairi.

Also explain nothing to do and left behind because neither of them are true of her character,and especially in this game.

Thirdly, you're confusing biology and nature with gendered, cultural socialization--the opposite of what is natural.

I strongly disagree that biology has nothing to do with gender norms,and it's a view that can't be changed.

 

[VoidGear.]

And who's denying feminine and badass can't coexist? Not I. That's my argument that it can. On top of that badass does not always have to mean violence. It can mean emotional strength to. The view seems to be that if a female character is mostly emotionally badass that,that is a problem. I don't see it as such. Kairi will never be Aqua and that's perfectly fine. Kairi does her role as support and the romantic lead very well. I don't want a bunch of clones for my female characters. Aqua is Aqua. Xion is Xion. Larxene is Larxene. Namine is Namine. Kairi is Kairi.

But why do multiple male characters get to be supportive and strong, yet it's only allowed for one female (Aqua) to be strong and independent, and another (Kairi) is only allowed to be supportive and the romantic lead?
Making more than one woman be able to do anything on their own doesn't mean they're suddenly the same person. Why couldn't Kairi, as a character who's been important throughout the entire series, be supportive, a romantic lead and strong/independent?

Also explain nothing to do and left behind because neither of them are true of her character,and especially in this game.

The first time we see her in KH1 after returning from being in Sora's heart, (where she was benched for almost the whole game), he refuses to take her along because "it's too dangerous", even though she's the only reason he was able to come back. She's benched again.
During the entirety of KH2, she's always excluded from pretty much everything. At first, she's forced to stay on the islands, then she almost gets kidnapped, then she gets kidnapped, then she gets kidnapped by someone else, and when Naminé frees her and Riku gives her a keyblade, she's still excluded from even becoming something like a temporary party member. Not even in the final battle, that could have been Sora, Riku and Kairi fighting together, where she was just "sent home early" so she couldn't get in the way of Sora and Riku's epic showdown with Xemnas.
Sure, she wasn't a competent fighter yet, but even just assigning her some sort of healer role would've been better than what she got. All the stuff that happens outside of cutscenes is entirely blown out of proportion anyway, so I also think arguments like "she wouldn't have been able to do cool stunts like Sora and Riku" don't really count.

Edit: She's so irrelevant in KH3 that I forgot to even NAME that, lmao.
Yeah, so, in KH3 she gets forced into some magic place with Lea for almost the whole game, and we don't even get to see that! We play as Riku twice! Would it have been SO hard to at least showcase Kairi and Lea's battle to complete their training? Anything??
No, all Kairi can ever do is serve as a plot-device for Sora. I don't understand how anyone can think she didn't get left behind.

I strongly disagree that biology has nothing to do with gender norms,and it's a view that can't be changed.

Now I'm really curious. Which gender norms are actually logically founded in biology and not exaggerated and cut down to stereotypes that do not apply for 99% of the people affected by it?

 

[galaxystars]

But why do multiple male characters get to be supportive and strong, yet it's only allowed for one female (Aqua) to be strong and independent, and another (Kairi) is only allowed to be supportive and the romantic lead?
Making more than one woman be able to do anything on their own doesn't mean they're suddenly the same person.
The first time we see her in KH1 after returning from being in Sora's heart, (where she was benched for almost the whole game), he refuses to take her along because "it's too dangerous", even though she's the only reason he was able to come back. She's benched again.
During the entirety of KH2, she's always excluded from pretty much everything. At first, she's forced to stay on the islands, then she almost gets kidnapped, then she gets kidnapped, then she gets kidnapped by someone else, and when Naminé frees her and Riku gives her a keyblade, she's still excluded from even becoming something like a temporary party member. Not even in the final battle, that could have been Sora, Riku and Kairi fighting together, where she was just "sent home early" so she couldn't get in the way of Sora and Riku's epic showdown with Xemnas.
Sure, she wasn't a competent fighter yet, but even just assigning her some sort of healer role would've been better than what she got. All the stuff that happens outside of cutscenes is entirely blown out of proportion anyway, so I also think arguments like "she wouldn't have been able to do cool stunts like Sora and Riku" don't really count.

"Edit: She's so irrelevant in KH3 that I forgot to even NAME that, lmao.
Yeah, so, in KH3 she gets forced into some magic place with Lea for almost the whole game, and we don't even get to see that! We play as Riku twice! Would it have been SO hard to at least showcase Kairi and Lea's battle to complete their training? Anything??
No, all Kairi can ever do is serve as a plot-device for Sora. I don't understand how anyone can think she [I]didn't[/I] get left behind."

Why couldn't Kairi, as a character who's been important throughout the entire series, be supportive, a romantic lead and strong/independent?

She's actually all of these.

I have a list to.

In KH1 Is she a keyblade wielder because I'm pretty sure she most certainly wasn't, and she would have died right then and there against Ansem. So basically she would have been in the way. Sora was 100% in the right.

She saved Sora from being an abomination. It was her light that brought him back.She literally saved his life.

In Kh2 her and Namine are the ones who opened the way for Sora to get into TWTNW castle to even beat Xenmas and the rest of the organization.

She was able to see Riku for who he was and stopped him from making the big mistake of leaving out of misplaced shame.

Even though she just got a keyblade you think she was ready to fight Xenmas? Okay.

Her heart is so strong that she became one of the seven destined to help take down Xehanort.

In Kh3 she learns to fight with Lea.

Lea becomes her friend so she is not just talking to or worrying about Sora.

Spoiler Show

To bring it home that she cares for others, not named Sora, she drapes her body protectively over a comatose Lea,but unfortunately this helps her get caught with him.

Stops Sora from dying permanently with the sheer strength of her light.

She also saved all the rest of their behinds to. If she didn't do what she did Xehanort would have won, with all that implies, and the guardians hadn't even faced him yet.

Held her own against freaking Saix and Xion.

Even if it was one boss fight she was included and she did very well as party member.

Now I'm really curious. Which gender norms are actually logically founded in biology and not exaggerated and cut down to stereotypes that do not apply for 99% of the people affected by it.

You are going to hate everything I'm about to post,but you did ask remember that...

At our core women are naturally nurturing, passive, and submissive,and at their core men are naturally aggressive, dominate, and logical. Testosterone is that great divider.

It's why we will always appreciate a romance movie,show,anime or book more.

It's why dolls and easy bake oven's were more interesting to us then Lego's and action figures.

It's why men are more aggressive, and into sports like NASCAR, basketball, football, hockey, and soccer etc. While the sports we're more into are soft like gymnastics, ballet, and ice skating.

It's why men are more drawn to be doctors,engineers,mathematicians,politicians, etc, but women are more drawn to nursing, teaching, being secretaries, and library work etc. Which brings me to...

Women on average are more drawn to nurturing/emotional careers with low to average pay than the practical science/ math heavy ones with medium to high pay.The hours/ability to quit are usually not insane, and therefore having a social life i.e. friends, marriage, and children is more of a stronger possibility.It's not the 'patriarchy' holding us back from these careers it's that we inherently don't want to do them in the first place.

It's why video games are dominated by men;especially the more violent kind, and the women in them are more scantily clad. Testosterone is the key. They are made by men for men. Violence and half dressed women entices them.

It's why men cheat more and women lose interest in sex. His job is to plant a baby. Once that is done he will naturally start looking elsewhere no matter how in love he is. A women will mostly lose interest in copulation, once she has the baby, because the biological function of sex is done for her.

It's why men like outdoor activities such as camping, fishing, and hiking more than we do.

There was a study done that concluded that if you for example give girls Autobots and boys Barbie cars then you end up having a tea party with Optimus and mudding with Barbie.

It's why we are not interested in more worldly goals like politics or money,but aspirations closer to home like family and babies.

That's why most leadership roles, be they in a relationship or career, are naturally masculine. It's not the we can't be leaders it's just inherently we don't want the job.

That's why men will plant their seed, and do the fun parts of child rearing,but they leave the work parts to the us. We are more biologically interested in it. They aren't.

That's why when a women falls in love she let's it guide everything in her life because that's what biology inherently us to do.

If a women is at a time in her life where it's Career vs Family? Most women will pick family. While men will pick work. Men mostly have that drive because of the whole biological provider thing. Women work because of feminist indoctrination, and that's why a women never feels fulfilled working. That pair bond and mate imperative really wants her with a swollen belly at home taking care of the house and her husband. Also there's nothing wrong with never wanting to work in the first place. A women that solely aspires to just get married and have children is only during what nature intended. It's what biology wants.

It's why in entertainment we are mostly the damsel in distress, and the male the hero. We inherently want to be.

It's why men are more laid back and messy. It's not inherently in them to want to cleanup.

It's why the majority of women take their husband names when married. We inherently want to. Biologically he's the leader and we're the follower.

It's why women are naturally drawn to being a housewife even the one's full of feminist indoctrination.It's the biologically better choice. Men want sex and to provide, and women want babies/security so biology makes sure we are moving toward that goal.

It's why a women feels jealously when her friends have a man,but she self deludes saying she doesn't need one and starts with feminist talking points. The jealously also amps up when a women has a plump belly from pregnancy. These jealous women secretly want one to. Which brings me to...

All women want babies,but they have deluded themselves against biological fact,and they will truly see the consequences of that when that 'choice' is no longer available. Men who are 'childfree' are not being truthful to themselves either. However,their self deceit can be rectified since they make fresh baby making ingredients everyday. They can always wake up, divorce their childfree wife, and find a younger one who wants children.

It's also why our 'friends' really aren't because once a attractive man enters the scene those same 'friends' subconsciously become competition. Exact same process happens with men and their 'friends'. Women are also jealous of gold diggers because these women had theforesight to use their youth and fertility to get a man to provide and get a baby.

It's why we inherently want to be pretty for men so we keep ourselves thin, wear make-up, and reveling or modestly feminine clothing,and also why we wear our hair long because we know it will entice a man so we can mate and have a baby.

Basically I don't see anything wrong with society enforcing gender roles because they are based on biology. They are not socially constructed,but inherent.

Biology doesn't care at all about being politically correct. Everything we do is geared toward that drive to pair bond and mate. Everything.

 

[Antifa Lockhart]

Good lord, that's not science, it's something you literally copy/pasted from Reddit. Get out of here with that culty nonsense.

 

[VoidGear.]

Yeah, you're right, I hate all of that, because it's bullshit and it hurts my brain that you actually have the guts to copypaste that here. I think I'm done with this convo, thanks!

 

[Elysium]

I strongly disagree that biology has nothing to do with gender norms,and it's a view that can't be changed.

I'm not sure why you're responding to this thread then? Because the title alone clues you in to the fact that people will be discussing the fact of how the female characters are treated (poorly for the most part), not opinions on how they should be treated poorly.

As for that copy/paste from some misogynist Internet wormhole above, you're again speaking with "we," "our," "all," as if you represent all women. You definitely do not. You don't speak for all men either, and I certainly don't agree with your reductive ideas that men are "naturally" aggressive, hostile, enjoy outdoor activities, cheat on their wives, etc. These are lies that are harmful to everyone, male and female.

It also makes clear you don't know the slightest thing about science, nature, or biology. I can only guess that someone who would make statements such as women are "naturally inferior" abhors things like science and biology anyway, so that isn't surprising. What is true biologically is that women have larger brains and are more intelligent than men in general. At this point, I think Onion Knight created another account because he got banned from this topic.

 

[Raz]

Gender is a social construct and nobody is born innately loving easy bake ovens lmfao.

 

[Harmonie]

Spoiler Show

Reading this topic has been very interesting for me. When playing the game, I undeniably was utterly disgusted by Kairi's treatment, but did not catch the downgrading of Aqua so much. To me I think I was just overjoyed that we got to play as Aqua a little bit that I didn't quite catch how the story itself did not reflect so well on her, a keyblade master of all things. So I'm having to reassess my opinion over Aqua's treatment in the game, which previously hadn't bothered me.

But Kairi... I just can't get over that. I think a lot of us really wanted Kairi to become sufficient even before the prologue stories to KHIII gave her a keyblade and pointed toward her becoming a warrior/guardian of light herself. What happened with her in Kingdom Hearts III is both an incredibly poor female character representation and just really bad writing. It's hard to untangle them from each other, because the fact that the plotline was actually clearly leading up to her becoming more than what she was just makes it overwhelmingly offensive. What was the point of building her up like this? Because of that, it's like Nomura *knows* that the audience not only hopes but straight-up expects better in female characters, but then turns around and does this.

It's not like much of anything they could have done in this game would have fixed the overall problems of Kairi or female representation in the series, but her becoming someone who could fend for herself and not become the victim of a generic damsel-in-distress plot once again would have at least been better. Like this is just bad. It wasn't even an exhilarating damsel-in-distress plot... It was just there. It has been done with Kairi multiple times, and this shouldn't have worked on anyone, regardless of how they feel about female representation (which everyone should want better, just saying).

I get that a lot of our old favorite characters were not given much at all in this game (Roxas and Xion having so little screentime, and Axel being cast aside so easily by Xemnas, ugh...), and it just looks like a lot of it is the result of rushing and too many characters to deal with. However, when I look at Kairi's situation, I see it as being a result of something unique. Kairi could have easily not been given much screentime but held her own like the rest of the guardians of light... Instead, she was given nothing and then just became a damsel-in-distress plot point. I find this way more offensive than Roxas, Xion, and Axel or other favorites not getting the amount of screentime/playtime I wanted them to get.

 

[Zul]

What is true biologically is that women have larger brains

No, male human brains tend to have higher total volume

and are more intelligent than men in general.

Also no, men tend to have a larger spread in intelligence tests, but the average is the same across both sexes.


Anyway, back to Kairi. What Galaxy and people with similar arguments aren't understanding is that general/traditional behavior patterns in women in history are not relevant to the problem with Kairi. Even if they believe "women are docile" Kairi herself was never presented in this fashion, she absolutely wanted to go on the raft and explore with Sora and Riku, and she absolutely wanted to fight alongside Sora and protect him in KH3.KH3, and the series at large, then presented her inconsistently with how she was set-up, along with having her character arc basically repeat three times. That's bad writing regardless of your feelings on sex and gender at large.

Gender is a social construct and nobody is born innately loving easy bake ovens lmfao.

Then how do you explain THIS? *points to picture of Raz using easy-bake oven as a fetus*.

 

[FudgemintGuardian]

I keep walking in and out of this thread and I'm never sure how to put down my feelings on the matter. lol

I guess I'll just give the super short version for now.

Having Kairi be a damsel in distress in and of itself isn't a bad thing, but it made absolutely no sense here. Nomura was trying to rehash the ending of the first game and it failed hard.

Aqua for the most part was treated just fine, but like practically everyone else in the game, suffered from the mentality bad writers have that plot can only happen if the characters are being stupid.



Something something boobs make us less aerodynamic something something.

 

[Elysium]

No, male human brains tend to have higher total volume

True, although taking into account brain sizes in proportion to the difference in body sizes, the difference is minimal. Since I was trying to understand where that came out of from the recesses of my mind, I Googled and realized there are notable differences in female and male brains, like a larger hippocampus and more grey matter v. white matter.

Also no, men tend to have a larger spread in intelligence tests.

I'm not getting how that means anything. Men are more spread out, some at the top of intelligence tests, some at the bottom, whereas in general women are more consistent--and some of that spread can be attributed to cultural reasons. But it is a fact that women do perform better in school, both high school and college level. All that to say that men and women have strengths despite their differences. And of course all that is generalized; not every man and woman is the same as every other man or woman.

Although I couldn't help thinking how...cute it was that those were the two statements you thought were most in need of addressing here. :wink:

 

[Audo]

Spoiler Show

What did the women original character actually accomplish in the game without the help of a male character? Xion sort of did something but Sora and Roxas did the carry job.

To be a bit fair, if you think about it Naminé and Kairi are the key to Xehanort's downfall. Nami is the reason Lingering Will saves them from all dying again. Kairi is the reason why Sora is able to come back from the final world, and is suggested as the reason why he is able to find his other friends (the light in the dark). Without the two of them Xehanort would have won. So while it's not great and could definitely have been better, they did play a key role in non-combat fashion at least?

 

[kirabook]

Reading this thread and some peoples post is a case study on why women are often written so terribly in all forms of media. Lol

Anyway. I'm still trying to evaluate my opinions on how Aqua was treated. I don't feel as strongly as some here even though I've read totally valid opinions and facts.

I suppose I view Aqua's treatment not as a weakness of her character or that she was downgraded for the fact that she was a woman. As others have said, when it comes to everyone else (except Kairi, I'm not even including her in this category, she was a beast of her own), no one seemed to be able to 'win' without Sora's involvement. I do understand that he was supposed to save everyone, but i wish Nomura had treated Sora's involvement more like a domino piece and not a finger knocking down every piece one by one, if that makes sense.