Two Sides, One Heart

[Nayru's Love]

Ven's heart is still in Castle Oblivion with his body.



If you're still reading, you're probably wondering how the hell is that even remotely possible. We have everything to believe that his heart is in Sora, from Roxas' appearance and emotions to the dual-wielding ability to the scene where we clearly see his heart entering Sora. All the pieces fit so well together, but there's just one piece that just doesn't fit. If you noticed in the scenes where Ven's heart flies away and where he enters Sora, it's all happening in Awakenings. That's the piece that doesn't fit.

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Part 1: There's more to a heart than just what it is in the physical world.

Anyone with half a brain knows that everything that happens in an Awakening doesn't happen in the physical world; they're basically like dreams. Thus, we can safely say that whatever makes up an Awakening doesn't take up actual space in a heart. The important thing, however, is that it happens. Awakenings happen on an entirely different plane of existence, one clearly different from the physical world. Since they're reflections of peoples' hearts, we can say that hearts are deeply connected to this other plane.

Venitas. The combination of Ven and Van. Judging by the "complete" look of the X-blade, their hearts did fuse successfully...but at the same time, they didn't. How could this be possible? Here's my idea:

Hearts are composed of two sides: their physical sides, and their metaphysical sides.

Ven's and Van's physical hearts fused successfully, but their metaphysical hearts didn't. their physical fusion resulted in a complete X-blade, but their separate metaphysical hearts resulted in an incomplete X-blade. Van received the X-blade because he was the dominant one controlling the body in the physical world. So, there is at least some correlation between the two sides.


Part 2: Ven's physical heart never left his body.

This one I've had some problems with in the past, but the English dub helped out a bit.

There is not one scene in the entire game of BBS where we see Ven's heart leave his body in the physical world. You could say his comatose state suggests that, but...

The boy's heart is asleep.

It's almost as if it has left.

Both quotes tell us that Ven's heart is still in his body, just asleep. It's around the time where he's in the CoW that his heart finds Sora. Maybe his heart magically disappeared from his body and found its way into Sora? It's possible, but...I don't find it that plausible.

What we do know, however, is that the only scene involving Ven's heart flying away and the only scene involving Ven's heart entering Sora both happened in Awakenings.

What we saw was Ven's metaphysical heart entering Sora's heart.


Part 3: The X-blade

If Ven and Van didn't metaphysically fuse, how can the X-blade even exist in the Awakening? Well, because their physical fusion was successful, their metaphysical fusion had at least some success. That's why Ven faded away after the destruction of the X-blade; his metaphysical heart was still part of it. It's weird to think how you could kill yourself by doing that, but things existing in two places at once is what the series is about.

Part 4: Ventus' keyblade and the Door to Light

Here's another tricky part. If Ven's metaphysical heart left his physical heart, how could he summon both his keyblade and DtL? If it was Ven's metaphysical heart that gave Sora Ven's keyblade, then Ven's physical heart shouldn't have the ability to summon it. It's probably an authentic one, too, if it can summon the DtL. That's my opinion, anyways.


Again, I think it's a case of something existing in two places at once. Sort of, anyways. While Ven's metaphysical heart left his physical heart, it may have left some strings attached to it. Meaning, it left, but it's still there in a way. Likewise, Sora's heart left his body, but it was still there in a way. Otherwise, how else would Roxas have wielded the Kingdom Key? Granted, the two cases are probably entirely different, but it goes to show you that hearts existing in two places at once is pretty possible.


If Ven's physical heart can act like it has a metaphysical heart inside of it without it being there, perhaps Ven's metaphysical heart can do the same thing; act like it's in a physical heart, that is. Because it's...”semi-physical,” it would react to the Heart Unlocker opening up Sora's heart, thus leading to Roxas inheriting Ven's heart in whatever way possible (I'd go deeper into this, but I think most of us agree that Ven's heart is in Roxas;well, I just don't understand the specifics, actually).

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There you go. While Ven's heart is clearly in Sora, it's also still with his body in Castle Oblivion. For me, it's very weird to think about, and I don't blame you if the idea still sounds like nonsense. Thank you anyways, though, for reading up to this point and not just skipping to the tl;dr secion I'm about to write up, since I know many of you lazy bastards will do that anyways.




tl;dr

-There's more to a heart than just its physical self; it may have a metaphysical self as well.
-If we are to assume that metaphysical hearts do exist, Then the heart that left Ven's Awakening was his metaphysical heart.
-According to Yen Sid's dialogue, Ven's heart was still inside of him after Aqua's fight with Venitas. We have never seen Ven's heart leave his body in the physical world.
-The heart that entered Sora in his Awakening was Ven's metaphysical heart.
-Ven's physical and metaphysical hearts were still attached to each other in certain ways, as shown when Ven's body summoned his keyblade and DtL.

 

[Grey]

I feel it's too much of a stretch to assume that hearts have defined metaphysical and physical sides. It makes sense that Vanitas had the X-Blade because he, the dark side of Ven's heart, was in control, not because his heart's physical side was in control. It doesn't need to be any more complicated than that.

It's a nice theory but I feel the physical and non-physical sides to hearts just complicates things when they needn't be complicated.

 

[Silverslide]

I would think his heart is with Sora. o.o

We even SEE the heart go into Sora's chest.

 

[Nayru's Love]

I feel it's too much of a stretch to assume that hearts have defined metaphysical and physical sides. It makes sense that Vanitas had the X-Blade because he, the dark side of Ven's heart, was in control, not because his heart's physical side was in control. It doesn't need to be any more complicated than that.

Van didn't have total control over the entire heart, otherwise he wouldn't have had to fight Ven. If he could overpower Ven in the real world, how come not immediately in the Awakening?

I would think his heart is with Sora. o.o

We even SEE the heart go into Sora's chest.

I'm not arguing that it's not in Sora (Well, I am that it's not in him completely, anyways), rather it's..."double-existing."

 

[Grey]

Van didn't have total control over the entire heart, otherwise he wouldn't have had to fight Ven. If he could overpower Ven in the real world, how come not immediately in the Awakening?

Because the Awakening is the heart's battleground (or, at least, it can be). Just because Vanitas was controlling Ven's body doesn't mean Ven's side of the heart wasn't resisting. I didn't mean Vanitas had total control, but Vanitas was definitely the dominant one, anyway. It's clear that he's more in control during Aqua's fight with "Venitas" (Or Vantus or Dark Ven or whatever fan name he has), else the fight wouldn't have happened in the first place.

I'm not arguing that it's not in Sora (Well, I am that it's not in him completely, anyways), rather it's..."double-existing."

Again, it's too complicated for a heart to exist in two bodies at once, especially considering how confusing the hearts-and-memories network that Sora has going on with the likes of Roxas, Ven, Riku, Kairi, Namine, Xion, Xehanort, etc.

Yen Sid's two quotes could be interpreted differently than how you have interpreted them. The first one works with your interpretation--however, I don't see why a dormant, sleeping heart cannot drift in the in-between. Sora received Ven's heart because Sora unintentionally called out to it, and Sora's and Ven's link caused Ven's heart to gravitate towards the heart that completed his own when he was "broken." Considering that it has been said that "the fates of all occur not by chance, but are inevitable" (minus some paraphrasing), it could even be assumed that Ven's heart was always meant to go to Sora should Ven ever lose his heart.

The second quote could simply relate to Yen Sid not being entirely sure of the whereabouts of Ven's heart. By saying "It's almost as if it has left," he could be saying, "I can't really tell, but it appears as though his heart has gone." Alternatively, perhaps Yen Sid (nor anybody else, quite possibly) does not know that a person can continue to exist in the world when they are separated from their heart. (And, as we see with Master Eraqus and Master Xehanort, this doesn't seem to be normally possible--their bodies both disappeared after their hearts left their bodies.)

Besides, if I recall correctly, Yen Sid also claims that Ven's heart is lost, and that he will need the light of a friend's heart to guide him to awakening from his comatose state.


The question remains as to why Ven's heart left his body in the first place. It was left sleeping because of his fight with Vanitas--it's possible that the abnormal circumstances in which his heart fell into sleep caused his body to continue existing while his heart left.

 

[Goldpanner]

Well I'm a bit lazy to think about most of the theory... But I have to tell you:

'it's almost as if it had left' in Japanese is 'I cannot feel his heart' so you can't really use it to prove that there's still some kind of heart inside him...

And in fact 'the boy's heart is asleep' is more like 'the boy's heart seems to be asleep' or 'it's as if the boy's heart is asleep' or 'the boy looks like his heart is asleep'... which makes that theory even more shaky, if you rely on the dialogue.

According to Yen Sid, Ven looks like his heart is asleep, but it cannot be detected within him.

I have a feeling that this 'physical heart' you're talking about is just the battery that keeps the body running: the soul.

edit: as for the concept of 'two things existing at once' in this series, that relies heavily on the existences belonging to separate realms. Sora and Roxas can exist at the same time because Sora is a being of the Realm of Light, while Roxas is a being of the Realm of In-between.

Certainly when the heart changes into a Heartless, the body disappears.
Or does that apply solely to this realm? Could other beings similar to the Heartless exist in another realm?
If we take that to be the case, then there must be another form of oneself elsewhere.
An existence neither of darkness nor of light. An in-between existence. Cast off by the heart, a mere shell, one who begrudges both the darkness and the light.
This mystery cannot be easily resolved. The relationship between the heart and the body is a complex one.
But since we exist in this realm, our counterparts of another realm must not be existent.
Therefore I shall call them...
"The non-existent ones."

 

[Nayru's Love]

Because the Awakening is the heart's battleground (or, at least, it can be). Just because Vanitas was controlling Ven's body doesn't mean Ven's side of the heart wasn't resisting. I didn't mean Vanitas had total control, but Vanitas was definitely the dominant one, anyway. It's clear that he's more in control during Aqua's fight with "Venitas" (Or Vantus or Dark Ven or whatever fan name he has), else the fight wouldn't have happened in the first place.

Unlike MX and Terra, Ven and Van became one complete entity, otherwise the X-blade wouldn't have been forged. Ven's heart can't resist against itself.

Again, it's too complicated for a heart to exist in two bodies at once, especially considering how confusing the hearts-and-memories network that Sora has going on with the likes of Roxas, Ven, Riku, Kairi, Namine, Xion, Xehanort, etc.

Keyblades and memories have been proven to exist in two places at once, so it's not too far of a stretch to say that hearts can do the same thing, IMO.

Yen Sid's two quotes could be interpreted differently than how you have interpreted them. The first one works with your interpretation--however, I don't see why a dormant, sleeping heart cannot drift in the in-between.

He speaks as if his heart was there; if it was drifting, it wouldn't be in his body.

The second quote could simply relate to Yen Sid not being entirely sure of the whereabouts of Ven's heart.

He may have said "almost," but I don't think that could imply that he's open to other possibilities. Maybe if he said something like "maybe" or "perhaps," then yeah.

Alternatively, perhaps Yen Sid (nor anybody else, quite possibly) does not know that a person can continue to exist in the world when they are separated from their heart. (And, as we see with Master Eraqus and Master Xehanort, this doesn't seem to be normally possible--their bodies both disappeared after their hearts left their bodies.)

I can see him not being able to see that Ven would lack a heart as possible, just not plausible.

Besides, if I recall correctly, Yen Sid also claims that Ven's heart is lost, and that he will need the light of a friend's heart to guide him to awakening from his comatose state.

He said something about it hanging in between light and darkness, although he may not have been speaking literally.

it's possible that the abnormal circumstances in which his heart fell into sleep caused his body to continue existing while his heart left.

We never see it leave in the real world, though; I think the scene in the Awakening is as good as it gets.

Edit: Well so much for the second quote...Though what do you mean by "in fact" for the first quote?

 

[Grey]

Unlike MX and Terra, Ven and Van became one complete entity, otherwise the X-blade wouldn't have been forged. Ven's heart can't resist against itself.

If Ven's heart can resist against itself, what do you call the entire final battle that Ven has with Vanitas? Ven wanted to destroy Vanitas and the X-Blade, and therefore he fought to keep Vanitas from gaining permanent control over their Heart. I'd say that since Ven's heart was completed by Sora's, it could also be said that Ven's heart is fractionally different from Vanitas's (but that's neither here nor there).

Keyblades and memories have been proven to exist in two places at once, so it's not too far of a stretch to say that hearts can do the same thing, IMO.

That doesn't make it any less confusing, however.

But when have Keyblades existed in two places at once? I can't recall an instance where they have. Roxas shared the Kingdom Key with Sora, and never used the Kingdom Key when Sora did.

And memories can easily be shared (and transferred) between people. If you're referring to Repliku and Sora having the exact same memory, though, I don't think that counts since it was an artificial memory.

He speaks as if his heart was there; if it was drifting, it wouldn't be in his body.

The rest of your quote was sort of covered by goldplanner. By saying "in fact", he was referring to a more correct translation of what Yen Sid's first quote was, I believe.
Sounds like the translating team needs to learn to not fudge translations. Even changing one word to a similar word can drastically change the meaning of an entire phrase, as seen with Yen Sid's second quote.

 

[Nayru's Love]

If Ven's heart can resist against itself, what do you call the entire final battle that Ven has with Vanitas?

Their metaphysical hearts fighting.

That doesn't make it any less confusing, however.

Understandable. Though KH is still a complicated series, but I'm sure you're aware of that.

But when have Keyblades existed in two places at once? I can't recall an instance where they have. Roxas shared the Kingdom Key with Sora, and never used the Kingdom Key when Sora did.

The Keyblade that Roxas used and the thing that Sora once lost in Castle Oblivion are the same thing. Furthermore, these two both used the Keyblade at the same time. This is can be explained by the relationship between Roxas and Sora. Thus, that both can wield two Keyblades in fact has an important meaning. This is also related to Xehanort's memories, but this point can't be touched on just yet.

Taken from Another Report.

And memories can easily be shared (and transferred) between people. If you're referring to Repliku and Sora having the exact same memory, though, I don't think that counts since it was an artificial memory.

I'm referring to XH and Xemnas.

but I'll be taking that "Another Realm" idea into consideration.

 

[Goldpanner]

Edit: Well so much for the second quote...Though what do you mean by "in fact" for the first quote?

What I mean is, the sentence is not 'his heart is asleep,' which your theory seems to rely on (Yen Sid confirming that Ven's heart is still asleep within him). What he actually says is something more like 'it's as if' or 'he looks like' or 'it seems', which does not confirm that Ven's heart sleeps within him at all; it just confirms that that is how it looks.

But when have Keyblades existed in two places at once? I can't recall an instance where they have. Roxas shared the Kingdom Key with Sora, and never used the Kingdom Key when Sora did.

Actually as Eraser Rain showed, they did. Because Sora and Roxas are the same person, they were able to share 'one' Keyblade at the same time for a short period before Sora went to sleep.

Sounds like the translating team needs to learn to not fudge translations. Even changing one word to a similar word can drastically change the meaning of an entire phrase, as seen with Yen Sid's second quote.

Well, I think they do a pretty good job with what they have. And the literal translations only matter to theory freaks like us XD;

 

[Sora'sProtector]

You had an idea pop into your head, then took the facts and stretched them to fit your idea.

When the facts create an idea on their own, then that idea is legitimate and can be argued.

You came up with a rule where hearts can have two states. Nowhere in Kingdom Hearts is that said, so I think it's wise to drop that idea.

 

[Nayru's Love]

You came up with a rule where hearts can have two states. Nowhere in Kingdom Hearts is that said, so I think it's wise to drop that idea.

It's pretty obvious that there's far more to a heart than what it physically is, and that it's affiliated with things that have an abstract existence; I don't think it's too far of a stretch to say that Awakenings are about the other side of a heart.

 

[HeartSeams]

Um, I just skimmed, but, I saw the Yen Sid line being used... should point out that, at that point in the story, Ven's heart still WAS inside him. Sora doesn't accept Ven in his heart until Ven is in the Chamber of Waking.

 

[gelandporn]

Really, the only thing this theory does is make things unnecessarily complex.
Not to mention how Mickey says that they finally know where Ven's heart is.

There is not one scene in the entire game of BBS where we see Ven's heart leave his body in the physical world.

And yet we don't see Kairi and Eraqus' hearts leaving their bodies either.

 

[Relix]

Dude...anything that is left of Ven's heart has been confirmed to reside in Sora. On multiple occasions. Why complicate something the games have already stated as fact. Ven's heart is in Sora. End of story. Aqua in RoD. End of Story. Terra within Riku? Not concrete yet but still heavily implied and Nomura saying he will touch upon it in his next game. That last bit is something people can do double takes and have reasonable doubt and speculation but to something as concrete as BBS confirming Ven is in Sora, Coded confirming Ven is in Sora, and Nomura saying that what's left of Ven is in Sora, is just what they all say. VEN IS IN SORA. NO WHERE ELSE.

Honestly, not to sound harsh and just for the sake of rhetoric, this isn't even reasonable speculation. You twisted facts to make something not tangible seem tangible. A theory is to take facts and by having these facts come to a possible conclusion. Not making up a conclusion and then finding random facts and twisting them, to make it hold water.

 

[Grey]

Their metaphysical hearts fighting.

Why can't it be as simple as Ven's Heart fighting Vanitas's Heart? The two have been separate for... what? Years? Regardless of the time, they've grown separate. They have different memories, and Ven's personality is totally different than Vanitas. I feel like Ventus's final battle with Vanitas could be comparable to the classic "alter-egos fighting for dominance" dynamic that you see in... almost any story that features such elements. Only, take alter egos and switch it with light and darkness.

Since metaphysical hearts have not been introduced to the series, there's nothing to support their fight being anything other than a struggle between two sides of the same heart--the "Light" side and the "Dark" side.

@ Heartseams:

Where is it said that Ven's Heart doesn't start to drift until Sora opens his own heart to Ven's? Judging by Yen Sid's spiel about how Aqua and Mickey need to have hopes for Ven in order for his Heart to return, it sounds as if Ven's Heart was not only comatose, but completely absent from Ven. Of course, Yen Sid's spiel in Japanese might be different like with the other quotes that Eraser Rain presented, but from the English version, Yen Sid makes it sound like Ven's Heart is lost and drifting, and eventually finds its way to Sora.

 

[HeartSeams]

@ Heartseams:

Where is it said that Ven's Heart doesn't start to drift until Sora opens his own heart to Ven's.

There are a few things that make it clear:
1 - He can still use the Keyblade, as he summons his Keyblade in the scene that follows and opens a pathway for Aqua. And, as we know, a heart is needed to use the Keyblade for complete beings. (This is why MX acknowledges that Ventus had reawakened on DI, because he summoned his Keyblade, meaning his heart hadn't completely diminished)
2 - In "Where the Heart Goes" or whatever it's called, when Sora opens up his heart to first talk to Ven's heart, it first shows Ven in the Chamber of Waking, with Sora saying "hey can you hear me?" (which, obviously implies that's where his heart was at the time)
3 - Ven said he followed Sora's voice which led him to his heart (this ties in with the above to better show how that's where his heart originally was)

With those two-three things, it seems obvious to me that Ventus' heart was still inside him during Yen Sid's scene, it was just fractured once again, to the point that it almost couldn't even be felt at all.

 

[Grey]

There are a few things that make it clear:
1 - He can still use the Keyblade, as he summons his Keyblade in the scene that follows and opens a pathway for Aqua. And, as we know, a heart is needed to use the Keyblade for complete beings. (This is why MX acknowledges that Ventus had reawakened on DI, because he summoned his Keyblade, meaning his heart hadn't completely diminished)
2 - In "Where the Heart Goes" or whatever it's called, when Sora opens up his heart to first talk to Ven's heart, it first shows Ven in the Chamber of Waking, with Sora saying "hey can you hear me?" (which, obviously implies that's where his heart was at the time)
3 - Ven said he followed Sora's voice which led him to his heart (this ties in with the above to better show how that's where his heart originally was)

With those two-three things, it seems obvious to me that Ventus' heart was still inside him during Yen Sid's scene, it was just fractured once again, to the point that it almost couldn't even be felt at all.

That all makes sense. So Ven's Heart stays with him until Sora's Heart opens up to his, and at that point, Ven's Heart escapes to Sora?

 

[Vani]

didnt you already post a thread about this?

well anyways. maybe.

 

[yomitchymitch]

Nope, Ven's heart is in Sora.
That's it.
End of story