Vanitas and Master Xehanort

[skyfoxx]

It should be pretty clear at this point that it's not exactly the cliche "darkness is no worse than light, only different" reversal, either, though.

Darkness, above all else, is dangerous. It's instinctual and selfish and violent and animalistic, obsessive and reckless and unyielding and open to manipulation, fearful and fear-inducing and jealous and correlated with rage. It's also incredibly difficult to stamp out completely.

And, as a being of pure darkness, Vanitas is composed entirely of that, and nothing else. Of course he's pure evil.

But, the thing is, most of those traits can be turned from completely awful personality flaws into strengths of their own if properly tempered - which is what Riku and Terra had to learn. It wouldn't work if they didn't have a strong enough light to get that darkness under control, though.

Not really. I'd still say that light can be as dangerous as darkness is. Again, with my example of Eraqus, he was willing to kill his own 2 pupils just because of "darkness." The only thing that makes darkness more dangerous is the fact that so many people oppose it and refuse to see the other side. And you know what? Some of the characters say that "fear is a darkness only" but even that isn't true. Mickey himself says that the reason they hate the darkness is because "they're afraid of the people inside it." Fear would be able to drive light just as much as it would darkness. The only reason people would still believe darkness is "evil" would only be because we haven't gotten a villain who is on the side of the light. (which is one of the reasons why I'd love for the new saga's villain to be one of the light... plus it'd be a cool twist)

 

[Relix]

Not really. I'd still say that light can be as dangerous as darkness is. Again, with my example of Eraqus, he was willing to kill his own 2 pupils just because of "darkness." The only thing that makes darkness more dangerous is the fact that so many people oppose it and refuse to see the other side. And you know what? Some of the characters say that "fear is a darkness only" but even that isn't true. Mickey himself says that the reason they hate the darkness is because "they're afraid of the people inside it." Fear would be able to drive light just as much as it would darkness. The only reason people would still believe darkness is "evil" would only be because we haven't gotten a villain who is on the side of the light. (which is one of the reasons why I'd love for the new saga's villain to be one of the light... plus it'd be a cool twist)

Not opposing any of this just being the Riku fan that I am. Mickey said that "the darkness was scary, and that everyone needs light and darkness." then mickey goes on to say that "it makes ya think why we're afraid of it." and Riku follows up with the, "Because of who's lurking inside." ahem carry on.

 

[skyfoxx]

Not opposing any of this just being the Riku fan that I am. Mickey said that "the darkness was scary, and that everyone needs light and darkness." then mickey goes on to say that "it makes ya think why we're afraid of it." and Riku follows up with the, "Because of who's lurking inside." ahem carry on.

...That's basically exactly what I said except you making a slight correction to the official dialogue... but whatever.

 

[kiante]

Riku showed that darkness cannot ever truly be mastered. He tried to use it, even for a good cause (saving his friend) but it consumed him, and even made him into the likeness of the evil inside of him. He no longer could even look at the light directly.

On to the light, you mentioned Eraqus. Eraqus tried to do something very bad. He was "blinded by the light" as it were. But that doesn't mean the light was bad. It really means that his OBSESSION led to DARKNESS (see early scene in Terra's story). He himself said that obsession leads to darkness. He was obsessed with protecting the light. It was a noble goal, but he let himself be blind to the means he was using to accomplish it, which was in fact a dark means.

Look at Ventus and the PoHs. They never do anything evil. Ever. They have hearts of pure light, and they're ALWAYS nice, friendly, etc. Good traits. Exhibiting good actions.

So you see, it works on the flip side too. A heart of pure darkness will do only evil, a heart of pure light will do only good. And hearts that have some darkness and some light will probably do some good and some evil.

To speak of a balance of light and dark, any good balance is to constantly fight to keep the darkness down. We don't know that someone can normally erase all the darkness in their heart (Ventas had it forcibly removed, the POH just seem to be born that way), but a "good guy" tries to keep it down, to keep from doing the acts that the darkness in his heart draws him to do.

There's a reason why the hearts of the PoHs are so powerful, because they are of pure light. It's no coincidence that they have the ability to create a Keyblade of Heart.

And look back at the end of KH1. One of my favorite quotes from Sora, "You’re wrong. I know now, without a doubt. Kingdom Hearts...is light!" Kingdom Hearts isn't darkness, and it isn't twilight. It's the most powerful thing in the KH world, it's the source of all life (a creator in some sort of way). Yet it's not darkness.

I know you'll all believe what you want to believe (we humans usually do ) but I think the current evidence indicates that light is truly good and darkness is truly evil in the KH universe.

 

[skyfoxx]

Riku showed that darkness cannot ever truly be mastered. He tried to use it, even for a good cause (saving his friend) but it consumed him, and even made him into the likeness of the evil inside of him. He no longer could even look at the light directly.

Riku DID manage to master the darkness in the end, I don't know what you're talking about. If you're talking about KH1 and COM, those don't count because he was just learning. By the end of COM and KH2 he had a pretty good hold of control on it. And even then, it isn't his own darkness that was damaging him, it was Xehanort's Heartless. Once Xehanort's Heartless was pushed back in KH2, Riku was fine with using darkness.

Look at Ventus and the PoHs. They never do anything evil. Ever. They have hearts of pure light, and they're ALWAYS nice, friendly, etc. Good traits. Exhibiting good actions.

Ventus: that's the most stupidest thing I've ever heard!
Ventus: SHUT UP!
Ventus: YOU WERE GOING TO IMPRISON ME HERE FOREVER, WEREN'T YOU?! (in very angry tone)
Ventus: I've got a better idea... how about I destroy you both!
Ventus: Atleast I have some! (OH! BURN!!!)

Ventus isn't perfect. And he's been angry and upset A LOT in the game. So if he's a heart of "pure light" surely he wouldn't have those emotions. What's the answer to this question then? Light is not "pure good." It is simply an element.

So you see, it works on the flip side too. A heart of pure darkness will do only evil, a heart of pure light will do only good. And hearts that have some darkness and some light will probably do some good and some evil.

The only evidence you'd have to support that would be Vanitas but even then, it's still debatable. Remember that VENTUS has negative emotions too. Not just Vanitas.

To speak of a balance of light and dark, any good balance is to constantly fight to keep the darkness down. We don't know that someone can normally erase all the darkness in their heart (Ventas had it forcibly removed, the POH just seem to be born that way), but a "good guy" tries to keep it down, to keep from doing the acts that the darkness in his heart draws him to do.

Now you're sounding like Eraqus :/

There's a reason why the hearts of the PoHs are so powerful, because they are of pure light. It's no coincidence that they have the ability to create a Keyblade of Heart.

So what? What are you trying to prove? The same thing works the flip side. Why is Vanitas so powerful? He's a heart of pure darkness. What point are you trying to make?

And look back at the end of KH1. One of my favorite quotes from Sora, "You’re wrong. I know now, without a doubt. Kingdom Hearts...is light!" Kingdom Hearts isn't darkness, and it isn't twilight. It's the most powerful thing in the KH world, it's the source of all life (a creator in some sort of way). Yet it's not darkness.

You do realize that it's been proven COUNTLESS times that Sora was wrong, right?

but I think the current evidence indicates that light is truly good and darkness is truly evil in the KH universe.

"So you have come this far... and still you understand NOTHING!"
- Billy Zane

 

[HeartSeams]

Not really. I'd still say that light can be as dangerous as darkness is. Again, with my example of Eraqus, he was willing to kill his own 2 pupils just because of "darkness."

It was more because of preventing an apocalypse than it was "just because of darkness".

 

[Vanitas666]

He needed MX untill he fused with Ven and obtained the X-Blade.
His final dialogue with Aqua hinted that Vanitas only lust after the power of the keyblade and want a second Keyblade War to happen in order to satisfy his lust for battle.

He doesn't care at all about MX, he is just useful to his own ends.

(That's how I see it XD)

I agree with this

 

[Absolute]

Light and darkness are merely tools. How they are used is what defines them as being good or evil.

 

[Relix]

Anyone else thinks this guy is Eraqus in disguise? xD just messin with ya.

 

[Ikkin]

Riku DID manage to master the darkness in the end, I don't know what you're talking about. If you're talking about KH1 and COM, those don't count because he was just learning. By the end of COM and KH2 he had a pretty good hold of control on it. And even then, it isn't his own darkness that was damaging him, it was Xehanort's Heartless. Once Xehanort's Heartless was pushed back in KH2, Riku was fine with using darkness.

The thing is, Riku's only okay with using the darkness because he knows he won't give in. The darkness itself isn't good, it's just rather useful if properly contained.

And it's still a pretty big problem if there's someone like Xehanort around, because even if one does accept it without allowing it to take control, it still provides convenient strings for him to use to turn Riku into a puppet.

Ventus: that's the most stupidest thing I've ever heard!
Ventus: SHUT UP!
Ventus: YOU WERE GOING TO IMPRISON ME HERE FOREVER, WEREN'T YOU?! (in very angry tone)
Ventus: I've got a better idea... how about I destroy you both!
Ventus: Atleast I have some! (OH! BURN!!!)

Ventus isn't perfect. And he's been angry and upset A LOT in the game. So if he's a heart of "pure light" surely he wouldn't have those emotions. What's the answer to this question then? Light is not "pure good." It is simply an element.

Well, the separation between light emotions and dark emotions clearly isn't as simple as positive emotions vs. negative emotions.

Anger, for one, seems to be a perfectly natural part of everyone's heart, light or dark.

But, that doesn't mean that the darkness of the heart isn't related to a whole ton of negative personality traits (albeit ones that can often be used for productive purposes).

And I honestly don't think you can say that darkness is neutral, any more than you can say that it's purely evil.

Here's the analogy I'd use to describe the nature of light and darkness in Kingdom Hearts:

Light is like creation, while darkness is like destruction.

Creation, in and of itself, tends towards positive outcomes. It's generally better for things to exist than to not-exist. Certain creative processes, left unchecked, can sometimes become destructive - like cancer, or overpopulation - but it's still the destruction that's the problem, not the creation itself. A being that could only create and is incapable of destruction can't really be evil, because it can't do any harm.

Destruction, on the other hand, is always negative if left unchecked. It would actually be pretty fair to say that a being who can do nothing but destroy is evil, because it can never add anything of value to the world. In small, controlled doses, though, destructive things can be harnessed to ward off even greater harm, in the same way that small amounts of poisonous substances are often what doctors use to save your life.

Likewise, light is good overall, except when it draws in the darkness. Darkness has a strong tendency towards evil, but can be used for good in the right hands. And, as neither can really exist without the other, trying to get rid of the darkness completely just doesn't work.

You do realize that it's been proven COUNTLESS times that Sora was wrong, right?

Actually, I think "Kingdom Hearts is Light" is one of the few metaphysical elements from the first game that's actually gained more support instead of being thrown into chaos.

Remember, Birth by Sleep shows that Kairi's grandmother's story about the Children of Light is referencing the Keyblade Wars. In the Children of Light story, the separation of the one World into many smaller ones is caused by the conflict over the original Light; in the Keyblade Wars, the conflict is caused by the Keyblade Masters' attempts to open Kingdom Hearts.

I think that's a pretty good suggestion that the original Light (the "light in the darkness") and Kingdom Hearts are one and the same.

 

[Wintertide]

Because the most evil guys always betray their master's plans.

 

[Silverslide]

The thing is, Riku's only okay with using the darkness because he knows he won't give in. The darkness itself isn't good, it's just rather useful if properly contained.

And it's still a pretty big problem if there's someone like Xehanort around, because even if one does accept it without allowing it to take control, it still provides convenient strings for him to use to turn Riku into a puppet.

Not at all. Riku's understanding of the darkness is not to fear it, but to embrace it. He uses it because it is a part of who he is and was. I don't think he uses darkness because it is "useful" that just sounds like your excuse.

It's different. Xehanort is an evil man. He had good intentions I suppose, but the way he went about doing it was wrong.

And I honestly don't think you can say that darkness is neutral, any more than you can say that it's purely evil.

You could say that same for light, so that doesn't help you much.

Here's the analogy I'd use to describe the nature of light and darkness in Kingdom Hearts:

Light is like creation, while darkness is like destruction.

Creation, in and of itself, tends towards positive outcomes. It's generally better for things to exist than to not-exist. Certain creative processes, left unchecked, can sometimes become destructive - like cancer, or overpopulation - but it's still the destruction that's the problem, not the creation itself. A being that could only create and is incapable of destruction can't really be evil, because it can't do any harm.

Destruction, on the other hand, is always negative if left unchecked. It would actually be pretty fair to say that a being who can do nothing but destroy is evil, because it can never add anything of value to the world. In small, controlled doses, though, destructive things can be harnessed to ward off even greater harm, in the same way that small amounts of poisonous substances are often what doctors use to save your life.

Not the same situations at all. Creation/Destruction are bad examples when it comes to Light/Darkness. For one, Destruction is also an aspect of life that will always be, along with creation. But destruction is never always a bad thing. Destruction is like wiping the slate clean, starting anew so you can make something even better. So it is also has positive and negative outcomes. Now Creation can also be a bad thing too. If the creation is a tool that can be used for evil for example(guns, and weapons of any kind) is that a positive outcome? Yes maybe the intentions are good, but the outcomes are bad. That is exactly why darkness cannot truly be considered bad, without saying the same for light.

Likewise, light is good overall, except when it draws in the darkness. Darkness has a strong tendency towards evil, but can be used for good in the right hands. And, as neither can really exist without the other, trying to get rid of the darkness completely just doesn't work.

Um, what is your point? Wasn't your earlier argument that darkness is evil?

Actually, I think "Kingdom Hearts is Light" is one of the few metaphysical elements from the first game that's actually gained more support instead of being thrown into chaos.

Yes, Kingdom Hearts is light, yet on the other side of it, what was there? The realm of darkness. So if Light is supposed to be this good natural element, how come when light appears, there is always darkness?

Remember, Birth by Sleep shows that Kairi's grandmother's story about the Children of Light is referencing the Keyblade Wars. In the Children of Light story, the separation of the one World into many smaller ones is caused by the conflict over the original Light; in the Keyblade Wars, the conflict is caused by the Keyblade Masters' attempts to open Kingdom Hearts.

I don't think we know what really happened at the keyblade wars for sure. Even MX says that there is a mystery surrounding what happened on that day.

 

[Ikkin]

Not at all. Riku's understanding of the darkness is not to fear it, but to embrace it. He uses it because it is a part of who he is and was. I don't think he uses darkness because it is "useful" that just sounds like your excuse.

It's different. Xehanort is an evil man. He had good intentions I suppose, but the way he went about doing it was wrong.

I don't think Riku ever embraced the darkness as much as he accepted that it was going to be part of him no matter what.

Remember, part of Namine's advice is, "Know that the darkness is there and don't give in." (emphasis mine) Ansem the Wise explains his own acceptance of the darkness as having "stared straight ahead with a calm heart, neither rejecting darkness, nor fearing it." The language used isn't particularly positive - accepting the darkness is a bitter pill that must be swallowed to avoid worse outcomes, rather than a strength to be embraced.

As for Xehanort, what kind of person he is doesn't really matter for my purposes. What matters is that he's able to use people's darkness to turn them into meat puppets even if they have properly accepted their own darkness rather than allowed it to control them.

You could say that same for light, so that doesn't help you much.

"I don't think you can say light is neutral, any more than you can say it's purely good?"

Why, yes, I can say the same thing, and I rather think it helps me a lot. =P The point being, of course, that darkness and light are not completely disconnected from issues of morality.

Not the same situations at all. Creation/Destruction are bad examples when it comes to Light/Darkness. For one, Destruction is also an aspect of life that will always be, along with creation. But destruction is never always a bad thing. Destruction is like wiping the slate clean, starting anew so you can make something even better. So it is also has positive and negative outcomes. Now Creation can also be a bad thing too. If the creation is a tool that can be used for evil for example(guns, and weapons of any kind) is that a positive outcome? Yes maybe the intentions are good, but the outcomes are bad. That is exactly why darkness cannot truly be considered bad, without saying the same for light.

...you basically just used similar examples to the ones I gave to explicate the connection between light-creation and darkness-destruction while ignoring the explanation I gave for how they fit in my own view.

Let's try this again.

Yes, destruction can pave the way for the creation of something better. It can also be used to save people's lives, if the thing being destroyed is destructive itself. In and of itself, destruction tends to result in a net loss, but it can still result in a better outcome if it's applied properly. In short, destruction can be beneficial as a means to an end, but it's always bad as an end in and of itself.

And, yeah, the creation of certain things, like weapons, can be bad. But, if you step back and think about why they're bad, you'll realize that the real problem is that creation is being used as a means to destroy things more efficiently. Creation for its own sake, with no ulterior motives, is generally good, even if it can also be used as a means to a destructive end.

Um, what is your point? Wasn't your earlier argument that darkness is evil?

...okay, that'd explain why you thought I was giving a bad example with creation and destruction.

My point isn't that darkness is evil.

My point is that darkness and light are not, in fact, equivalent to each other in moral terms. Which isn't to say darkness is bad; it just needs to be treated differently than light instead of just being seen as a separate-but-equal element. Darkness is bad as an end, while light is good as an end, even if both of them are equally capable of being useful or problematic as means.

Yes, Kingdom Hearts is light, yet on the other side of it, what was there? The realm of darkness. So if Light is supposed to be this good natural element, how come when light appears, there is always darkness?

According to the legends, Kingdom Hearts is in the Realm of Darkness as a consequence of the battle that took place over the possession of it. It's not that Kingdom Hearts intrinsically draws in tons of darkness to surround itself - it was moved there unnaturally, and ought not be there.

I don't think we know what really happened at the keyblade wars for sure. Even MX says that there is a mystery surrounding what happened on that day.

No, we don't know for sure, but we certainly have enough to speculate from.

 

[griever]

Just quickly on the earlier note that Eraqus is an example of how the light isn't always good either, because he only used light and it drove him to "evil" actions.

He explicitly states as he's dying that he had not seen the DARKNESS in his own heart. He admits that he has darkness in his own heart.
My point is, Eraqus' actions are not an argument that light can be evil. I'm not saying light can't be evil, but this isn't an example of that.