Vanitas and Ventus

[QuickFlash]

So, I think this is the proper place to put this.

SPOILERS AHEAD IF YOU HAVE NOT FINISHED BBS!!!!

So, if the Unversed came from Vanitas because his pure-dark heart disrupted the balance in his heart, why didn't Ventus create his own Unversed made of light?

 

[Light]

To be precise it was his negative thoughts given shape and form. And Ventus, I guess, wasn't powerful enough to form his own beasts.

 

[Zettaflare]

Maybe he had the ability and simply didnt know it. Light based unversed, hmm. Sounds interesting. Maybe this will be explored in kh3

 

[wii.red24]

Because as I understand it unverse are by their very nature negative creatures and light could not give birth to them only the darkness can.

 

[billyzanesucks]

Vanitas is an unnatural creature in that he is a sentient being of pure darkness existing in the realm of light who formed his own physical body separate from Ven. I'd say he's even more of an oddity than Namine.

 

[Zettaflare]

Because as I understand it unverse are by their very nature negative creatures and light could not give birth to them only the darkness can.

Maybe ven's unversed were made from positive feelings and are light based. Its not outside the realm of plausibility

 

[Ruran]

Vanitas is a complete anomaly, possibly the first and only of his kind only possible through man-made means. While Ven was a created PoH other similar to him exist because PoH happen naturally. Beings of pure darkness like Vanitas can't be born naturally in the RoL so his his bizarre conception, born from being violently torn away from the heart of a tortured child, gave him the ability to spawn Unversed as a side effect because of the negativity surrounding the action.

Ven can't create Unversed because they were a direct result of the negativity surrounding the event when Vanitas was born. Vanitas embodies Ven's darkness and so gained control of the negative emotions.

 

[Zettaflare]

Vanitas is a complete anomaly, possibly the first and only of his kind only possible through man-made means. While Ven was a created PoH other similar to him exist because PoH happen naturally. Beings of pure darkness like Vanitas can't be born naturally in the RoL so his his bizarre conception, born from being violently torn away from the heart of a tortured child, gave him the ability to spawn Unversed as a side effect because of the negativity surrounding the action.

Ven can't create Unversed because they were a direct result of the negativity surrounding the event when Vanitas was born. Vanitas embodies Ven's darkness and so gained control of the negative emotions.

The idea behind vanitas is probably one of the most interesting and unique creations by nomura. Darkness from a persons heart manifested in human form, thats something that seems really original and awesome. Hell, maybe vanitas isnt the only one of his kind, surely xehanort is not the first person to have done this. Maybe xehanort learned how to manifest a persons darkness during his years seeking knowledge about the keyblade war. I really hope that this idea is explored more in future titles.

 

[Ruran]

The idea behind vanitas is probably one of the most interesting and unique creations by nomura. Darkness from a persons heart manifested in human form, thats something that seems really original and awesome. Hell, maybe vanitas isnt the only one of his kind, surely xehanort is not the first person to have done this. Maybe xehanort learned how to manifest a persons darkness during his years seeking knowledge about the keyblade war. I really hope that this idea is explored more in future titles.

Considering the events of the Keyblade War there's a good possibility that others like Vanitas existed, or at least, an attempt to make a being like him may have occurred before. If I recall right when Xehanort was a student there was certain knowledge barred from him so I wouldn't be surprised if how to make a being with a heart of pure darkness was something he learned when seeking knowledge after he graduated.

Conceptually Vanitas is very interesting, it's something I hope they touch on more in the future too.

 

[AdrianXXII]

Considering the events of the Keyblade War there's a good possibility that others like Vanitas existed, or at least, an attempt to make a being like him may have occurred before. If I recall right when Xehanort was a student there was certain knowledge barred from him so I wouldn't be surprised if how to make a being with a heart of pure darkness was something he learned when seeking knowledge after he graduated.

Conceptually Vanitas is very interesting, it's something I hope they touch on more in the future too.

If they did do that back then during the Keyblade War that would kind of truly make the Unverse the first enemy. There's really no telling what they did back then, but I wouldn't be surprised if they had done something like that.

Yes the concept behind Vanitas is quite interesting. I also always wondered why he seemed to be fine while Ven's heart of light was dieing.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Yes the concept behind Vanitas is quite interesting. I also always wondered why he seemed to be fine while Ven's heart of light was dieing.

Ven's heart was already weakened due to the Heartless attacks before and MX maltreating it with his Keyblade. Vanitas' on the other hand was a newborn heart that, according to what MX wrote in his reports, took too much energy away from Ven's heart when it manifested.

 

[AdrianXXII]

Ven's heart was already weakened due to the Heartless attacks before and MX maltreating it with his Keyblade. Vanitas' on the other hand was a newborn heart that, according to what MX wrote in his reports, took too much energy away from Ven's heart when it manifested.

Just read the report you're referring to. From what I understand Vanitas doesn't have a new heart, it's also just a fragment of the same heart. I wonder if the reason why Vanitas was stronger and took so more of the heart was because there was actually initially more darkness in Ven's heart than we belived or because maybe darkness can just sustain itself easier.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Just read the report you're referring to. From what I understand Vanitas doesn't have a new heart, it's also just a fragment of the same heart. I wonder if the reason why Vanitas was stronger and took so more of the heart was because there was actually initially more darkness in Ven's heart than we belived or because maybe darkness can just sustain itself easier.

It's a bit of both actually, as the initial core of Vanitas' heart is indeed a shard of Ven's heart that Xehanort cut off from Ven's heart (another possible reason for why he was in such a bad shape). The phrase "newborn heart" was only used in the novel if I recall correctly, but it isn't entirely false as we got confirmed by DDD now that parts of a heart can grow into full hearts as well as that hearts can be nurtured and formed.

We can exactly see how much darkness (in terms of ratio) was in Ven's heart when we look at his broken awakening platform from the prologue, it shows exactly how much of his heart was cut out:

Spoiler Show

Judging by the fracture itself, I would assume that the part Vanitas "started with" was approximately a quarter, or maybe a bit less than that.

 

[AdrianXXII]

It's a bit of both actually, as the initial core of Vanitas' heart is indeed a shard of Ven's heart that Xehanort cut off from Ven's heart (another possible reason for why he was in such a bad shape). The phrase "newborn heart" was only used in the novel if I recall correctly, but it isn't entirely false as we got confirmed by DDD now that parts of a heart can grow into full hearts as well as that hearts can be nurtured and formed.

We can exactly see how much darkness (in terms of ratio) was in Ven's heart when we look at his broken awakening platform from the prologue, it shows exactly how much of his heart was cut out:

Spoiler Show

Judging by the fracture itself, I would assume that the part Vanitas "started with" was approximately a quarter, or maybe a bit less than that.

Well yeah, I guess that is true. I don't know if id consider a heart grown from a fragmented heart a new heart, but a regrown heart. Then again in Vanitas' case it might not have only grown from Ven's heart, so it would technically be a new heart.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Man if Vanitas was that stable and strong with just a fourth of a heart that's pretty impressive. I guess the trauma wasn't as severe on the extracted fragment as it was on the rest of the heart, or maybe it strengthened it.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Well yeah, I guess that is true. I don't know if id consider a heart grown from a fragmented heart a new heart, but a regrown heart. Then again in Vanitas' case it might not have only grown from Ven's heart, so it would technically be a new heart.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Man if Vanitas was that stable and strong with just a fourth of a heart that's pretty impressive. I guess the trauma wasn't as severe on the extracted fragment as it was on the rest of the heart, or maybe it strengthened it.

It can of course be interpreted in different ways. But the heart which "regrows" I would designate more to Ven's since that was not only the bigger chunk but also the original being that was there. Vanitas is a new being, so his heart can also be considered new even if it's base comes from another heart.
I have compared this also to a cell division like in biology. When a cell divides you get also two cells from the same source.

Like Xehanort said Vanitas took more from Ven than he should have, that can be interpreted not only as the physical part of the heart but also the energy. Remember that Vanitas instinctively seeks out Light to disrupt and eventually destroy, due to the trauma and injuries Ventus was essentially totally defenseless and Vanitas would have an easy time taking more and more energy away.
That's what was also one of Xehanort's concerns when he decided to give Ven away to Eraqus.
Don't forget as well that Vanitas may have been connected to Xehanort's heart from the beginning, so his "stableness" would be easily explainable by that.

 

[AdrianXXII]

It can of course be interpreted in different ways. But the heart which "regrows" I would designate more to Ven's since that was not only the bigger chunk but also the original being that was there. Vanitas is a new being, so his heart can also be considered new even if it's base comes from another heart.
I have compared this also to a cell division like in biology. When a cell divides you get also two cells from the same source.

Like Xehanort said Vanitas took more from Ven than he should have, that can be interpreted not only as the physical part of the heart but also the energy. Remember that Vanitas instinctively seeks out Light to disrupt and eventually destroy, due to the trauma and injuries Ventus was essentially totally defenseless and Vanitas would have an easy time taking more and more energy away.
That's what was also one of Xehanort's concerns when he decided to give Ven away to Eraqus.
Don't forget as well that Vanitas may have been connected to Xehanort's heart from the beginning, so his "stableness" would be easily explainable by that.

Well I guess if you look at it that way it would make sense to call Vanitas' heart a new one, after all he definitely is a new being.

That makes sense, it would definetly be in Vanitas' nature to do that, also as you said: according to Xehanort it was dangerous for Ven to be around Vanitas so he must have been draining him in some way.
I could actually see him doing something like that. It's really not hard to believe that while he was extracting the darkness from Ven's heart, he was implanting a piece of his own heart into the darkness to strengthen the being and to have a vessel for the backup Org if his plans failed.

 

[Ruran]

In terms of Vanitas's heart during/after birth I like to think of it as having been "recast" and "reforged". Like when you take scraps of broken metal, melt them down, then make something new out of it. It's a collection of recycled materials but it's "new" none the less. When we see a ball of darkness encase Ven's heart fragment in the process of creating Vanitas (we even see him in fetal position for a moment for visual clarification that he's a "new born") not only is his body being constructed, I think that was also the "recasting and reforging" of the heart. The darkness that seemingly comes out of nowhere I think is what aided in stabilizing Vanitas's heart by functioning similarly to how Sora patched up Ven's heart only it was able to fill at least some of what wasn't there with raw darkness.

Also as Sephiroth said I think Xehanort may have aided in stabilizing him as well. Re-watching Vanitas's birth scene MX sends a dark beam into Ven before extracting his darkness.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Well I guess if you look at it that way it would make sense to call Vanitas' heart a new one, after all he definitely is a new being.

That makes sense, it would definetly be in Vanitas' nature to do that, also as you said: according to Xehanort it was dangerous for Ven to be around Vanitas so he must have been draining him in some way.
I could actually see him doing something like that. It's really not hard to believe that while he was extracting the darkness from Ven's heart, he was implanting a piece of his own heart into the darkness to strengthen the being and to have a vessel for the backup Org if his plans failed.

That is the analogy, yes.

Xehanort also mentions the same behaviour when conferring with Terra about Vanitas and when he hints about why he would target Radiant Garden.
Exactly, and it would also serve as another backup for Xehanort in case Vanitas would try to betray him once he had the X-blade. As seen with Xigbar and Xemnas, the "Xehanort"-vessels are allowed to have a certain degree of personal individual freedom analog to how loyal they are to Xehanort, while the more rebellious or unwilling pawns would be controlled by Xehanort directly (like Terra).
As seen in BBS Vanitas also had a high degree of freedom, but Xehanort surely wouldn't be so stupid to risk Vanitas turning the X-blade (even if it's only a proto-blade) against him so he planted an emergency measure that would ensure that in the end he always has the upper hand if Vanitas decides to rebel.

In terms of Vanitas's heart during/after birth I like to think of it as having been "recast" and "reforged". Like when you take scraps of broken metal, melt them down, then make something new out of it. It's a collection of recycled materials but it's "new" none the less. When we see a ball of darkness encase Ven's heart fragment in the process of creating Vanitas (we even see him in fetal position for a moment for visual clarification that he's a "new born") not only is his body being constructed, I think that was also the "recasting and reforging" of the heart. The darkness that seemingly comes out of nowhere I think is what aided in stabilizing Vanitas's heart by functioning similarly to how Sora patched up Ven's heart only it was able to fill at least some of what wasn't there with raw darkness.

Also as Sephiroth said I think Xehanort may have aided in stabilizing him as well. Re-watching Vanitas's birth scene MX sends a dark beam into Ven before extracting his darkness.

I really like that explanation too, it also goes well with the notion that Xehanort "cut out" a part/shard of Ven's heart.
I also didn't even think of the analogy with the fetal position yet, good observation, makes full sense. That ball of darkness could then metaphysically even seen as Vanitas' "egg cell" from which he's born, with the "reforged" shard of Ven's heart as the core of his being where his own heart is then built around upon.

I'm inclined to believe Xehanort did the stabilizing with his heart, probably even a seed already like the others, in that case Vanitas' would be the "first seed".
As for the beam, wasn't that the attack from MX' Keyblade that cracked Ven's heart in two in the first place?
If I recall correctly MX shot that beam into his chest and Ven gasps while his eyes widen as his heart is ripped apart.
I guess that this very act is also the immense negativity that is created and later leads to the manifestation of the Unversed.

 

[Ruran]

That is the analogy, yes.

Xehanort also mentions the same behaviour when conferring with Terra about Vanitas and when he hints about why he would target Radiant Garden.
Exactly, and it would also serve as another backup for Xehanort in case Vanitas would try to betray him once he had the X-blade. As seen with Xigbar and Xemnas, the "Xehanort"-vessels are allowed to have a certain degree of personal individual freedom analog to how loyal they are to Xehanort, while the more rebellious or unwilling pawns would be controlled by Xehanort directly (like Terra).
As seen in BBS Vanitas also had a high degree of freedom, but Xehanort surely wouldn't be so stupid to risk Vanitas turning the X-blade (even if it's only a proto-blade) against him so he planted an emergency measure that would ensure that in the end he always has the upper hand if Vanitas decides to rebel.

You know, I kind of wonder how much "sense of self" Vanitas really has all things considered. Obviously he's not a mindless drone but I wonder how much of his persona is his own and how much stems from his connection to Xehanort.

I really like that explanation too, it also goes well with the notion that Xehanort "cut out" a part/shard of Ven's heart.
I also didn't even think of the analogy with the fetal position yet, good observation, makes full sense. That ball of darkness could then metaphysically even seen as Vanitas' "egg cell" from which he's born, with the "reforged" shard of Ven's heart as the core of his being where his own heart is then built around upon.

I'm inclined to believe Xehanort did the stabilizing with his heart, probably even a seed already like the others, in that case Vanitas' would be the "first seed".
As for the beam, wasn't that the attack from MX' Keyblade that cracked Ven's heart in two in the first place?
If I recall correctly MX shot that beam into his chest and Ven gasps while his eyes widen as his heart is ripped apart.
I guess that this very act is also the immense negativity that is created and later leads to the manifestation of the Unversed.

Yep, that how I see that ball of darkness, as a sort of "egg cell" or "artificial womb" to incubate the bouncing baby bastard that would eventually torment thousands across the universe with his Hell spawn, beat up woman and children, and break their toys. Master Xehanort must be so proud! <3

Probably, I always imagined Vanitas being the guinea pig MX used to see if his seeding idea worked. It could work as a two for one deal, for stabilization and seeding simultaneously. I think the beam could have done both, tear a piece of Ven's heart and imbued it with more darkness. Since MX was removing a fragment from a heart that was mostly light which would then be a "new born" perhaps he felt the need "refine" or "temper" the darkness in Ven's heart with his own before removing it in the case the heart fragment wasn't stable on its own.

 

[AdrianXXII]

That is the analogy, yes.

Xehanort also mentions the same behaviour when conferring with Terra about Vanitas and when he hints about why he would target Radiant Garden.
Exactly, and it would also serve as another backup for Xehanort in case Vanitas would try to betray him once he had the X-blade. As seen with Xigbar and Xemnas, the "Xehanort"-vessels are allowed to have a certain degree of personal individual freedom analog to how loyal they are to Xehanort, while the more rebellious or unwilling pawns would be controlled by Xehanort directly (like Terra).
As seen in BBS Vanitas also had a high degree of freedom, but Xehanort surely wouldn't be so stupid to risk Vanitas turning the X-blade (even if it's only a proto-blade) against him so he planted an emergency measure that would ensure that in the end he always has the upper hand if Vanitas decides to rebel.

He also did send his Unverse into worlds where PoH resided in, though that might have less to do with him and more to do with Xehanort's plan. Though as soon as he's anywhere close to Ven, he really did seem to want to kill him.

Yeah, considering all his back up plan this would make sense. As you pointed out he keeps varying control on his vessels, so keeping a way to keep one in check must also be in place for the willing vessels. It would be very like him to have a backup plan for the chance Vanitas would turn on him. The fact that what Vanitas wears and what Riku wears when he's possessed would also hint at the possibility of Xehanort planting a seed in Vanitas.
Vanitas does seem to do mostly what he wants in BBS , but he also seems to be quite loyal to Xehanort, holding himself back while around Ventus, mostly.

You know, I kind of wonder how much "sense of self" Vanitas really has all things considered. Obviously he's not a mindless drone but I wonder how much of his persona is his own and how much stems from his connection to Xehanort.



Yep, that how I see that ball of darkness, as a sort of "egg cell" or "artificial womb" to incubate the bouncing baby bastard that would eventually torment thousands across the universe with his Hell spawn, beat up woman and children, and break their toys. Master Xehanort must be so proud! <3

That's a good question, I'd believe he has quite a sense of self, seeing he expresses his own desires a few times and has quite a distinctive psychotic personality.

This does seem like a good interpretation of what the ball of darkness is.
Yes Master Xehanort must be very proud, he's everything he ever he himself wanted to do and did later on.

Probably, I always imagined Vanitas being the guinea pig MX used to see if his seeding idea worked. It could work as a two for one deal, for stabilization and seeding simultaneously. I think the beam could have done both, tear a piece of Ven's heart and imbued it with more darkness. Since MX was removing a fragment from a heart that was mostly light which would then be a "new born" perhaps he felt the need "refine" or "temper" the darkness in Ven's heart with his own before removing it in the case the heart fragment wasn't stable on its own.

I could see him test the seeding thing on Vanitas that, it would seem like the smart thing to do in that situation. It's possible he used the seed to cause a disturbance in the heart so it would be easier to extract the darkness and make sure it could stabilize once it's out.