Wait a minute... Namine did this HOW?!

[Twilight Lumiair]

OK so this has been bugging me ever since 2.8 was released but I never got around to asking the forum about this. To get straight to the point:
So remember that scene from one of the orchestra concerts, ya know the one between Namine and Terra that supposedly took place before Aqua and Terra's interaction in 0.2? Yeah, that one. Could anyone explain how that scene makes any f****** sense(Excuse my language this just really frustrates me)?

0.2 happens from the end of birth by sleep to the end of KH1, correct? Namine was created during the final chapters of the first game when Sora stabbed himself, so even if we assume that Aqua and Terra's interaction takes place after this, that would mean Namine was literally JUST born into existence. So how would Namine even know that Terra exist at this point? I could've of accepted this if the scene took place when Sora was asleep (i.e. when she first discovered the connection between Sora and the BBS trio, and she admitted this by the way) or even during the events of chain of memories (when she was literally tampering with Sora's memories), but that's physically impossible since it takes place during 0.2 and before the end of KH1. Namine wouldn't have access to this information, nor should she have been able to reach out to Terra AND know where Aqua was. Not to mention she never brought this up to ANYONE for the entirety of Chain of Memories and KH2 and just seemed to be acting on her own devices in the background for NO REASON. Even if she was aware of these peoples existence, how does she know anything about them, and most of all why should she care? It would be one thing if she had a personal connection/relationship with one of them or at the very least knew why they were important in some way, but she didn't. Heck she didn't even know of, interact with, or even see Roxas or Mickey at this point (She may have known of Sora's existence and even some of his past, but that wouldn't tell her EVERYTHING, especially if Sora wasn't even aware the BBS trio's fates or even who Terra was to begin with), so I'm baffled as to how and why she could've or would've made this decision. If the answer was given elsewhere I didn't see it, and if not:

Could someone please explain this?

​

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah it doesn't make sense.

The best I could maybe see is that present-y time Nami is performing some sort of time-travel mumbojumbo through her powers over memories (the conversation between them is taking place in Terra's memory... somehow).

 

[maryadavies]

I have a bit of headcanon with this, that I'll go ahead and share.

Memories are part of the links between hearts. Memories can be shared, in a way, as in people can experience the same thing, which means they can link hearts, hence why memories are part of those links.

If any part of that is true, it not only explains THIS, it explains WHY everyone forgot Sora in Chain of Memories/before KH2. I figure Namine has the power to TRACE those links (Because there's either memories in them or memories are involved in some way) so she may play a part later in finding where Terra is. I won't count out timey-wimey stuff though.

This could also be the RIGHT way for Namine to use her powers as well; find someone who's lost.

 

[Twilight Lumiair]

I have a bit of headcanon with this, that I'll go ahead and share.

Memories are part of the links between hearts. Memories can be shared, in a way, as in people can experience the same thing, which means they can link hearts, hence why memories are part of those links.

If any part of that is true, it not only explains THIS, it explains WHY everyone forgot Sora in Chain of Memories/before KH2. I figure Namine has the power to TRACE those links (Because there's either memories in them or memories are involved in some way) so she may play a part later in finding where Terra is. I won't count out timey-wimey stuff though.

This could also be the RIGHT way for Namine to use her powers as well; find someone who's lost.

Um... sorry, you kinda lost me there. So Namine used her power over memories to trace a link back to Terra? But why? What reason would she have to go through the effort? I feel like I missed something.

EDIT: Or are we assuming this is present Namine somehow?

 

[maryadavies]

Okay. I think either A. Timeywimey stuff involved (aka, she got asked by someone in the future and did it then) or B. While Sora was asleep, she either got curious since she could sense those links, and did it, or DiZ asked her to do it. ^^ Prolly B. But we will prolly know for sure when KH3 comes out.

But yeah, I think this heart-link-tracing ability is going to play a part in saving Terra later. Phew, how are they going to know where Terra is and what shape he's in? NAMINE...

[Edit]Right now I'm theorizing/guessing some though. I think she's done this heart-link-tracing before (either out of curiosity or request by DiZ) and will do it again in the present to help the heroes find and save Terra. Don't shoot me if I'm wrong, I'm only going by the evidence so far.

 

[Twilight Lumiair]

Okay. I think either A. Timeywimey stuff involved (aka, she got asked by someone in the future and did it then) or B. While Sora was asleep, she either got curious since she could sense those links, and did it, or DiZ asked her to do it. ^^ Prolly B. But we will prolly know for sure when KH3 comes out.

But yeah, I think this heart-link-tracing ability is going to play a part in saving Terra later. Phew, how are they going to know where Terra is and what shape he's in? NAMINE...

I can see either scenario being true, I just hope it gets elaborated on in KH3.

That'd also be a really unique role for Namine to play too since we never really see the full range of her abilities. I remember one time she completely destroyed Riku Replica's heart in an instant and never did anything like that again (including to her captors) which showed me that we haven't seen her all of her abilities just yet. Though I'd imagine they're all memory based in some way. Still, I'd NEVER guess they had anything to do with time, but who knows this is Namine after all.

Edit: It's a good theory by the way ^^

 

[maryadavies]

Thanks Twilight. I think it holds water; if it holds true or not remains to be seen. TBH I was going to mention it in my fic (which is on this site btw! I'm working on a new chapter as we speak) but considering what you asked, I felt that little headcanon/theory needed to be trotted out a little early.

I basically looked at what happened in Chain of Memories (Everyone other than D&G forgetting about Sora) which gave me the idea that the links between hearts are composed partly of shared memories (Um, I think when Naimine messed with Sora's memories those links frayed like a unsinged rope/a rope that the ends were not bound up, hence why everyone forgot him. Of course, when the memories were fixed, it fixed the links too, so everyone remembered him!) and this recent thing. If it's true that the links between hearts ARE partly composed of shared memories, then it all falls together really easily. Since there is memory involved, Namine can trace the links between hearts; hence she can FIND Terra. If she can FIND Terra that way, it all makes sense, no matter what her reason was.(Not to mention help save Xion, I think she'll be involved in saving Xion too but that's another story)

We don't have all the pieces yet so we don't know why, but if you think about it we may know the HOW. (The why we can only guess about at this point, as I did in my second post in this thread) And if this theory's correct, there's going to be a lot of headsmacking when Namine inevitably explains herself, since it was right in front of our noses the whole time.

 

[Smithee]

What else is new?

This is KH, where...

[video=youtube;dGlWqleZox8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGlWqleZox8[/video]

 

[FudgemintGuardian]

That's when it takes place?! I thought it took place while Namine was fixing Sora's memory. Guess my mind just couldn't handle it and changed it to something that made more sense.

 

[DarkosOverlord]

Time is distorted in Lordran.

No but seriously, I'm pretty sure that's the explanation should you cicada block Nomura and ask him about this: in the Realm of Darkness time flows differently, and I suspect it doesn't just mean that it has a different dilation.
When Aqua operates on the gears in Cinderella's world, she makes the clock and the bridge revert back, meaning she essentially turned back time itself in that area: assuming this can also happen regardless of her intervention (or even with it, who knows), the distortion of time might means it can sometimes "skip" to the past or to the future without Realm of Light logic.

So here's my theory: 0.2 doesn't always take place during KH1's ending. Realm of Light-timewise, some moments could've happened earlier or even AFTER said time period, and then time reverted back or it's just different from one area to the other: the Dwarf Woodlands area is in a different time zone (RoL time) than, say, Enchanted Dominion or Ruined Destiny Islands. In the RoD they basically follow what little timeline there is, but correspondant to the Realm of Light perhaps they all exist in way different times.
So Aqua might've met Terra, who was sent there by Naminé some time after KH1, and then she fell into that chasm who brought her in another zone of the RoD where she met Mickey, and that segment actually takes place at the end of KH1 despite the meeting with Terra and Xehanort happening in the future.

Far-fetched, but it's messy and unclear enough that it might just be true. Off the top of my head I don't remember it being specified that her meeting with Terra also happened at the end of KH1 or before when Xehanort was still an apprentice, but it's very late so I might be forgetting something. If I am, so much for all my theory then.
If anything, this "explanation" could also tie in the Xemnas talking to Aqua's armor cutscene, that could've very well happened in that moment AND after Naminé was born.

 

[Twilight Lumiair]

Thanks Twilight. I think it holds water; if it holds true or not remains to be seen. TBH I was going to mention it in my fic (which is on this site btw! I'm working on a new chapter as we speak) but considering what you asked, I felt that little headcanon/theory needed to be trotted out a little early.

I basically looked at what happened in Chain of Memories (Everyone other than D&G forgetting about Sora) which gave me the idea that the links between hearts are composed partly of shared memories (Um, I think when Naimine messed with Sora's memories those links frayed like a unsinged rope/a rope that the ends were not bound up, hence why everyone forgot him. Of course, when the memories were fixed, it fixed the links too, so everyone remembered him!) and this recent thing. If it's true that the links between hearts ARE partly composed of shared memories, then it all falls together really easily. Since there is memory involved, Namine can trace the links between hearts; hence she can FIND Terra. If she can FIND Terra that way, it all makes sense, no matter what her reason was.(Not to mention help save Xion, I think she'll be involved in saving Xion too but that's another story)

We don't have all the pieces yet so we don't know why, but if you think about it we may know the HOW. (The why we can only guess about at this point, as I did in my second post in this thread) And if this theory's correct, there's going to be a lot of headsmacking when Namine inevitably explains herself, since it was right in front of our noses the whole time.

Cool, I'll definitely be checking out your fic soon!

I'll be very curious to see what scenario the writers chose for the final cut of the game. I mean, I'm sure it probably won't be the best but I have confidence they know where they want to take the characters. By the way, the idea of memories and feelings being the main tether for links between hearts has been suggested by Namine herself at one point I believe. When she was discussing with Xion what her fate would be, she said that she was "connected through others memories." If "connected" in this case was referring to the connection between hearts, then it's very likely your theory is correct. That said, Namine was wrong about certain things during this conversation. For example, she claimed that Xion didn't have her own memories when we later see definitively that this isn't true. Later in game when Xion speaks to Roxas during the ending, as well as in Dream Drop Distance (since Sora recalls Xion, meaning her memories still existed within him) .

Roxas, don't be sad. I came from you and Sora. I am you... the same way that I am Sora. You'll forget me, but the memories themselves will never go away. Memories of you and me will always be together... forever, inside him.

Not saying that your theory isn't still very likely (I believe it), but I just wanted to make clear that we still lack definitive evidence. Hmm, I do have to wonder how Namine's going to explain this one though, since she's likely to be the one to bring it up.

 

[alexis.anagram]

I recall a theory posted not too long ago which inferred that Namine looks the way she does because, in the process of being "born," she connected with Ven, whose body is located inside Castle Oblivion. And I thought maybe that theory touched on this conversation's timing as well, or I'm making up a connection myself, but basically it would make sense if Namine, in the process of splitting off from the triangulation of three hearts (Sora, Kairi and Ven) was drawn to the location of Ven's body (or ended up there coincidentally, whichever), and due to her nature was immediately impacted by the strongest memories and emotions residing within and/or between his heart and body. That might have linked her up with Aqua, whom she couldn't reach directly due to her location, and Terra, who was for whatever reason more accessible, and during their dialogue she basically just has the context and a sort of secondhand mandate from Ven: Terra needs to go help Aqua.

I kind of like this idea because it implies that this might have been the way Namine discovered her powers, or at least one of her earliest uses of it. She might have reached out to Terra using Ven's memories as a test of her abilities, or on pure instinct, and realized through tracking every chain that they all led back to Sora somehow. Thus explaining how she knows the nature and extent of her abilities.

Realistically, this doesn't change much about what what we know about what Namine might or might not have known based on previous games. Telling Sora would have been fruitless during CoM when his memory was so scrambled and his heart under such duress that he was struggling to recollect the most important people in his own immediate circle, and in KH2 she was, for obvious reasons, avoiding direct contact with Sora, who wouldn't have initially remembered her anyhow. There was nobody else it really made sense for her to mention it to: she couldn't trust DiZ, Riku had his hands full keeping Sora safe and allowing her to piece his memory back together, and Roxas was having a difficult enough time grasping his relationship to Sora-- imagine if Namine had told him he had another heart influencing him. And, realistically, telling anybody about Aqua, Terra and especially Ven would have only served to put them all in more danger given these circumstances: if Xemnas had found what he was looking for in Castle Oblivion, who knows how things might have turned out. Namine's one of the more intelligent and empathic KH characters: she knows there's a time and place for everything, and unlike Mickey, she had good reason for keeping what she knows close to her chest.

 

[Twilight Lumiair]

Time is distorted in Lordran.

No but seriously, I'm pretty sure that's the explanation should you cicada block Nomura and ask him about this: in the Realm of Darkness time flows differently, and I suspect it doesn't just mean that it has a different dilation.
When Aqua operates on the gears in Cinderella's world, she makes the clock and the bridge revert back, meaning she essentially turned back time itself in that area: assuming this can also happen regardless of her intervention (or even with it, who knows), the distortion of time might means it can sometimes "skip" to the past or to the future without Realm of Light logic.

So here's my theory: 0.2 doesn't always take place during KH1's ending. Realm of Light-timewise, some moments could've happened earlier or even AFTER said time period, and then time reverted back or it's just different from one area to the other: the Dwarf Woodlands area is in a different time zone (RoL time) than, say, Enchanted Dominion or Ruined Destiny Islands. In the RoD they basically follow what little timeline there is, but correspondant to the Realm of Light perhaps they all exist in way different times.
So Aqua might've met Terra, who was sent there by Naminé some time after KH1, and then she fell into that chasm who brought her in another zone of the RoD where she met Mickey, and that segment actually takes place at the end of KH1 despite the meeting with Terra and Xehanort happening in the future.

Far-fetched, but it's messy and unclear enough that it might just be true. Off the top of my head I don't remember it being specified that her meeting with Terra also happened at the end of KH1 or before when Xehanort was still an apprentice, but it's very late so I might be forgetting something. If I am, so much for all my theory then.
If anything, this "explanation" could also tie in the Xemnas talking to Aqua's armor cutscene, that could've very well happened in that moment AND after Naminé was born.

Wow, this is actually really interesting! Far-fetched, but very interesting! The idea that each world Aqua visits in 0.2 exist in there own pocket of time is surprisingly feasible since the transitions between each of them are more than vague enough for a concept like this to actually work. I remember Riku mentioned to Joshua in Dream Drop Distance that all worlds run on their own clocks (which would explain the strange birth by sleep timeline), and given the nature of time in the RoD is already pretty wonky, it's not totally out of the question that this could be the case. And one last thing, it was never outright said that Terra and Aqua's conversation took place before the end of KH1, I just made the logical assumption that it did because of the game's ending, but it was never truly confirmed (hence everyone's uncertainty). Great theory!

I recall a theory posted not too long ago which inferred that Namine looks the way she does because, in the process of being "born," she connected with Ven, whose body is located inside Castle Oblivion. And I thought maybe that theory touched on this conversation's timing as well, or I'm making up a connection myself, but basically it would make sense if Namine, in the process of splitting off from the triangulation of three hearts (Sora, Kairi and Ven) was drawn to the location of Ven's body (or ended up there coincidentally, whichever), and due to her nature was immediately impacted by the strongest memories and emotions residing within and/or between his heart and body. That might have linked her up with Aqua, whom she couldn't reach directly due to her location, and Terra, who was for whatever reason more accessible, and during their dialogue she basically just has the context and a sort of secondhand mandate from Ven: Terra needs to go help Aqua.

I kind of like this idea because it implies that this might have been the way Namine discovered her powers, or at least one of her earliest uses of it. She might have reached out to Terra using Ven's memories as a test of her abilities, or on pure instinct, and realized through tracking every chain that they all led back to Sora somehow. Thus explaining how she knows the nature and extent of her abilities.

Realistically, this doesn't change much about what what we know about what Namine might or might not have known based on previous games. Telling Sora would have been fruitless during CoM when his memory was so scrambled and his heart under such duress that he was struggling to recollect the most important people in his own immediate circle, and in KH2 she was, for obvious reasons, avoiding direct contact with Sora, who wouldn't have initially remembered her anyhow. There was nobody else it really made sense for her to mention it to: she couldn't trust DiZ, Riku had his hands full keeping Sora safe and allowing her to piece his memory back together, and Roxas was having a difficult enough time grasping his relationship to Sora-- imagine if Namine had told him he had another heart influencing him. And, realistically, telling anybody about Aqua, Terra and especially Ven would have only served to put them all in more danger given these circumstances: if Xemnas had found what he was looking for in Castle Oblivion, who knows how things might have turned out. Namine's one of the more intelligent and empathetic KH characters: she knows there's a time and place for everything, and unlike Mickey, she had good reason for keeping what she knows close to her chest.

I actually really like this idea too! It perfectly explains the why in this scenario. Honestly, it had almost slipped my mind that she was being kept hostage for most of her time during those games. I also hadn't really considered everyone else's position during that time, since Namine never really did interact directly with Mickey, she logically wouldn't have had the opportunity to mention that information. And I guess technically speaking, that info wouldn't have done anyone any good at the time considering they were already in a crisis with the threat of the organization. She was actually very smart to leave that message, along with that digital version of herself, in Jiminy's journal so that he problem could be dealt with after the fact rather than be a distraction. I guess I just thought that the BBS trio would have more of a priority in her mind since she already went to such great lengths to assist them, but maybe not.

With all of these different perspectives I'm really excited to see what the true answer will be in KH3, since (as we've already discussed) Namine will inevitably have to explain herself once she returns.

 

[Launchpad]

Kingdom Hearts is stoopid and is more than willing to break it's own overly explained rules to make stuff happen. It's all about style and character, not consistency

 

[Nazo]

The explanation that makes the most "sense" to me is this: Namine is going through Sora's memories post-CoM, finds the sleeping memories that become a plot point in Coded. One of these is Terra, and through Kingdom Hearts shenanigans, Namine is able to communicate with Terra's Lingering Will in present day through the memories that are stored in Sora.

Does it make logical sense? Absolutely not. But this is Kingdom Hearts. We have to use Kingdom Hearts logic. Which is to say, we have to stop trying to make sense of it whatsoever.

Kingdom Hearts is stoopid and is more than willing to break it's own overly explained rules to make stuff happen. It's all about style and character, not consistency

Precisely. Nomura is all about shock and cool moments, not consistency and logic. If he can find a way to make a really cool or surprising moment happen at the cost of it making absolutely no sense, he will do it every single time.

 

[UmbraTsuki]

I like the theories DarkosOverlord and alexis.anagram brought up the most. Both make a lot of sense to me!

For the lack of time in the RoD, it makes a lot of sense considering how much other strange things happen there (like with the Dwarf Woodlands portion where things are going in and out of mirrors, etc.). Time doesn't pass like in the RoL, for sure and I wouldn't be surprised if things warped or crossed over a bunch.

Naminé's creation being impacted by Ven is interesting. It feels like their personalities are a bit similar too, like they're both gentle and sweet but stand up for what they need to when it's needed. I also agree that Naminé keeping the information about Terra/Aqua/Ven would likely be well thought out on her part. She knows what they need to focus on and when.

Naminé's power overall has so much potential... I really hope to see a lot more, and maybe that way this will be explained, in KH3.

 

[Nazo]

I like the theories DarkosOverlord and alexis.anagram brought up the most. Both make a lot of sense to me!

For the lack of time in the RoD, it makes a lot of sense considering how much other strange things happen there (like with the Dwarf Woodlands portion where things are going in and out of mirrors, etc.). Time doesn't pass like in the RoL, for sure and I wouldn't be surprised if things warped or crossed over a bunch.

Not exactly sure what you mean here. The Realm of Darkness has no bearing on the situation between Namine and the Lingering Will. Namine is in the Realm Between during the scene where she speaks to the Lingering Will, and the LW is in the Realm of Light.

 

[Launchpad]

Let's not forget that Beast traveled to a different world through the sheer power of being pissed off

 

[DarkosOverlord]

Not exactly sure what you mean here. The Realm of Darkness has no bearing on the situation between Namine and the Lingering Will. Namine is in the Realm Between during the scene where she speaks to the Lingering Will, and the LW is in the Realm of Light.

It does, since one of this thread's main questions are about how could've Naminé warned Terra/LW to go look for Aqua if 0.2 (supposedly) happened during the end of KH1, so Naminé would've been just recently born and a lot of events wouldn't chronologically make sense or happen in a VERY short time frame.
So while the RoD doesn't impact the other realms directly, if you look at the events from its perspective there might be some discrepancies, and this was what my theory was about.

 

[Nazo]

Let's not forget that Beast traveled to a different world through the sheer power of being pissed off

Ah yes, the best bit of the KH lore.

It does, since one of this thread's main questions are about how could've Naminé warned Terra/LW to go look for Aqua if 0.2 (supposedly) happened during the end of KH1, so Naminé would've been just recently born and a lot of events wouldn't chronologically make sense or happen in a VERY short time frame.
So while the RoD doesn't impact the other realms directly, if you look at the events from its perspective there might be some discrepancies, and this was what my theory was about.

Oh okay, I see what you're saying. The time flow differences COULD account for the events not taking place literal seconds after Namine was born.