What do you Think about Xion?

[sora364]

I was more referring to Saix's comment in Twilight Town about warning Sora to not become like Riku, and then it adding up with them thinking Riku was an Organization member.

Haha. You're right. I just re-watched the scene. And why you yourself made a very valid point (the Riku ordeal) the game just makes it sound unconvincing. I mean:
_______________________________________

*Sora is depressed and pensive about Riku's mysterious fate*

Sora: ...Riku? ...What did he mean by "end up like Riku?"

*Seifer and gang approach and talk to him, Sora is clearly still thinking about Riku, totally ignoring Seifer when he tells him to get out of town*

Seifer: GTFO out my town!

Sora: Riku...

*Seifer and co. leave*

*Pence walks up*

Pence: Sup, Sora. U know a hoe named Kairi?

Sora: !?
*jizzes pants* *forgets about Riku*

OMGWTFBBQ, KAIRI!? Hell yeah!

Pence: You'd better come down to the station.

Sora: *Nods head happily in excitement.*

Shoot yeah, boi!
__________________________________

Obviously exaggerated, but that's the context I got. No wonder I forgot about it XD

You pointed out one of the biggest flaws due to a mistake I made, that you also forgot about it. They sent Nobodies, true. But the main enemy in most worlds up to - you guessed it - the end, were HEARTLESS. In a game that was supposed to be about NOBODIES.
Huff.

Haha. You forgot too? Good to know I'm not the only thing. I'll just have to think twice before I call Org. XIII "pointless antagonists" in KH2 because of it. But yeah, I totally agree. In the long run, it was still mostly about Heartless up to that point.

 

[Smile]

Obviously exaggerated, but that's the context I got. No wonder I forgot about it XD

Most of the moments in which Sora cares about Kairi are either plot driven (let's get her Heart out of his Body~) or come immediately after he's already mentally and emotionally broken over Riku (case in point in Twilight Town, and again in Hollow Bastion where Xemnas calls Mickey out to be a lying rat about Riku, and then Axel and Saix prance in about Kairi).
Ironically, during the reunion scenes, it was the other way around and the SoRiku reunion was a lot more invested in than the SoKai one (written like so to spare writing both character's names).

I'll just have to think twice before I call Org. XIII "pointless antagonists" in KH2 because of it.

They're still overall pointless antagonists, especially since the world they attacked the most, being Hollow Bastion, was already a nest for Heartless. So it's not like they really needed the help, they just shifted the blame.
What I was trying to make a point of was mostly that Sora had, from the very beginning, right after he left Yen Sid's tower, a very good reason to hunt them down. But mostly because the blame was shifted in their direction, not that they themselves acted as characters.

 

[Reika]

RANT WARNING

0_0. No...just...no. Once you get pass the egregiously repetitive ice-cream scenes and "pointless" Xion, you might realize that 358/2 actually has a plot. Yes, a horrendously paced plot, but a decent one that actually kept my attention (unlike a certain "sequel")Shower it in mediocrity and slapdash professionalism all you like; but please, it can never be remotely comparable to that trash-all cryptic/negligible Birth By Sleep references aside.

358/2 Days may perhaps be crap, but Kingdom Hearts II is a steaming pile of dog****.

Don't get me wrong, KH2 WAS done horribly, there's no denying that. But, like you said with Days, once you get past the badly integrated worlds and the loss of brain cells in most characters, KH2 also had a plot, and it served some importance, badly done as it was. With KH2, the actual plot just took place at the beginning, took a break for Sora's adventures through worlds after Mysterious Tower, and then reappeared at TWTNW. The plot that DID exist was still important to the story. It, as I've said, gave closure to the endings of KH1 and CoM. It showed us what happened to everyone, and set up the next couple of games.
I ask you, what purpose did Days serve? How was important to the overall KH plot (NOT importance to the Days plot, but to the overall plot of all KH games)? What good will the knowledge we learned in Days serve for us in future games?

That is why it is worse than KH2 for a KH game, because at least KH2 had SOME importance. Days couldn't even do that.
Whether or not it caught your attention or didn't is up to personal preference. I was talking about importance- and necessity-wise with my statement.

In Kingdom Hearts II, am I told by Yen Sid that "All Nobodies are bad and you must kill them!"-half the reason we fight ORG XIII (In KH2) in the first place (despite them doing borderline nothing wrong aside from Xaldin's treachery and perhaps Luxord.)

....
So, the Org members attacking others, including Sora, with Nobodies and Heartless aren't good reasons for attacking them? The Org members going out to steal peoples' hearts isn't a good enough reason to fight them? The Org kidnapping Kairi and keeping information about Riku's whereabouts while taunting Sora about it isn't reason enough for Sora to get angry enough to go against them? LOLWUT?

The Main Reason: Wasted potential on ORG XIII.

Didn't Days waste that potential even more so? They didn't do anything except give optional NPC comments, or harp on about Xion. :/

They serve no purpose. Literally. The spotlight they receive as our antagonists is inexcusably minute.

Are you describing them in Days here, or in KH2? It's hard to tell.

Other than Axel and Xemnas, none of these characters have any development or back story other than "Ex ATW Apprentice." Demyx and Luxord seem to have next to no importance, which is disheartening as I liked them both (despite them having 3 seconds worth a camera time a piece.)

This is, AGAIN, true in Days, as well. What importance did Demyx and Luxord have in Days? What backstories for each member was given to us in Days, that we SHOULD have learned SOMETHING about, considering the player character lived with them for almost a friggin year?
You hold these things against KH2, when Days is just as guilty, if not more so!

And our real reason for killing the last four of them? Oh, they decidedly to randomly kidnap plot device Kairi with no real reason as Sora was already continuously slaying Heartless with the Keyblade/supplying their Kingdom Hearts with bountiful hearts. Kidnapping Kairi was unnecessary. But for the sake of this terrible plot, it was clearly needed to actually give the game a conclusion.

I don't think they went out of their way to kidnap her. Kairi was taken after she escaped from Axel a second time. I always figured she pretty much ran into them and they decided, "Oh hey, it's Sora's GF, let's take her". Sort of as a back-up plan.
Granted, it WAS still unnecessary. I do agree with that. But a lot of Days was unnecessary, as well, so KH2 shouldn't be the only game taking crap for having unnecessary elements. :/

Roxas is another brilliant example of Kingdom Hearts II's fantastical writing skills. "Hey! Let's foreshadow him at the end of Chain of Memories with a picture of him-signifying his integral precedence in the next installment!" "Alright, now let's force you to play a 3 hour tutorial with him, allude to his obscure past, build on his character, make you fall in love with him, and never speak of him again until the last level!"

That's better than taking a great character like Roxas and deciding, "Hey, let's throw in another Kairi clone, have Roxas do jack shit plot-wise, for almost a year, except fanboy over said Kairi clone, which he'll do even after she dies!"

The same goes applies of Namine, Axel, Diz, and Riku. As in Days, Riku did not do a single productive thing before the end of the game other than give a box of sea salt ice cream with a random picture of Roxas. At the very least, he defeated Roxas in Days after a year of doing almost absolutely nothing.

I do agree with this. Although Namine did seem somewhat useful in Days, as she was actively working on Sora's memories until Xion got in the way. Actually, she was one of the only characters in Days that actually did something, even if it was behind the scenes.

 

[Allister Rose]

I suppose the only one thing that had days going for was saix and axel relationship, but even that was answered in khBBS.

anything seen in days, wasn't necessairly important IN DAYS. so kh days was unecessary because even if hinted any important information, the reveal never happened.

Also....liking the story is heavily depended on whether you like Xion.

 

[*TwilightNight*]

Also....liking the story is heavily depended on whether you like Xion.

I think that's where the problem lies, truthfully. If you don't like the character, you're basically fcuked over from playing that game considering she's shoved down your throat in the most enormous example I've ever seen.

 

[Smile]

I think that's where the problem lies, truthfully. If you don't like the character, you're basically fcuked over from playing that game considering she's shoved down your throat in the most enormous example I've ever seen.

tl;dr we all think Days sucks it's just that I enjoyed Xion while you guys didn't, is what a lot of this thread sums up to

I doubt anyone doubts it. But that's KH for you, post CoM.

 

[sora364]

Don't get me wrong, KH2 WAS done horribly, there's no denying that.

Amen.

But, like you said with Days, once you get past the badly integrated worlds and the loss of brain cells in most characters, KH2 also had a plot, and it served some importance, badly done as it was.

Isn't obvious? Goofy stole them! It's the only explanation as of to why he is so smart and Sora is a complete and utter dumbass! Do the math.

Any way, you are most certainly correct. Kingdom Hearts II served importance...as did Days, only in a separate way as I noted in one of my opening posts in this thread.

With KH2, the actual plot just took place at the beginning, took a break for Sora's adventures through worlds after Mysterious Tower, and then reappeared at TWTNW.

Reika, you adventitiously just confirmed Kingdom Hearts II bears virtually no semblance to a plot (in a more so radical way than any example I have listed.) Allow me to define “Plot”

The plot is the sheer quintessence of the story. It is the very fabric that laces all the subsequent events of the storyline into one massive tale. Essentially, “The Plot” is a conglomeration, a chain, or web, of all the events linking the beginning of a story to the end. Depending on who you ask, the “middle” or how you get to the “end” is the core of the entire story. Thus, the plot. A “beginning” and an “end” are not a plot. You are neglecting the most imperative piece-middle/plot itself.

I know that is not the way you meant that, but next time-select your terminology a bit more meticulously

At any rate…you are still partially correct. That is a complete mess, and by no means a plot. If it were an actual plot, the ending would have been literally no where as anticlimactic as it concluded. Kingdom Hearts II has a “plot,” not plot.

The plot that DID exist was still important to the story. It, as I've said, gave closure to the endings of KH1 and CoM. It showed us what happened to everyone, and set up the next couple of games.

By the way, I never said Kingdom Hearts II was not pivotal to the story-just that it is complete and utter ****. Total difference.

…As for “gave closure to the endings of KH1 and COM” Kingdom Hearts 1? Yes. Chain of Memories? Not at all whatsoever, unless I have missed some critical piece of information. If so, I request that you enlighten me (I’m serious,not joking around.) This is literally half the reason I loathe Kingdom Hearts II's story.

Reflect on the ending of Chain of Memories. Now, tell me how those events were representative of the end of Kingdom Hearts II? In fact, other than Sora's comatose stasis and the "Thank Namine" note in Jiminy's journal...Chain of Memories references are non-existent-which is disappointing. It is almost the same as Xion, forgotten and never mentioned again. One of the reasons I loathe KHII is because it disregards all the intriguing elements introduced in COM. It almost feels as if COM was pointless.

I ask you, what purpose did Days serve? How was important to the overall KH plot (NOT importance to the Days plot, but to the overall plot of all KH games)? What good will the knowledge we learned in Days serve for us in future games?

Please refer to my earlier post near the beginning of this thread. It is too early to make such an audacious conclusion. That is being needlessly dismissive and insular (not saying that you are) The series has not ended-and Xion still has much unexplored potential. I have already admitted most of her actions were "self contained in Days"-but Days did foreshadow (to a lesser extent) Birth by Sleep, which was unreleased at the time. We learn that Xemnas is familar with Ventus, and is searching for him (hinting at the fate of a certain someone in BBS) The latter also addresses Xigbar. We learn why Roxas can Dual Wield (you can ramble about not "needing" to know this and it being "retconned"-at the end of the day, it's the new true canon explanation) and so on. So to answer your question, it has foreshadowed to a "future" game that has already been released. Now, for games that extend after KH2's storyline, that much I cannot say. However, as I noted in my earlier post: Xion has been referenced in Blank Points and mentioned in Re:Coded. This alone quantifies that Xion has a lingering chance of "redeeming" herself for you ungrateful people Just be patient. When the franchise ends and nothing comes to light of Days-then and only then can we truthfully say it was not needed.

That is why it is worse than KH2 for a KH game, because at least KH2 had SOME importance. Days couldn't even do that. Whether or not it caught your attention or didn't is up to personal preference. I was talking about importance- and necessity-wise with my statement.

Can I ask you something, Reika? Using your reasoning, something conflicts me. What distinguishes Chain of Memories from 358/2 Days in matters of overall precedence? Because no matter how much I enjoyed Days: COM>>>>Days. Allow me to explain:

Be pensive for a moment. Vexen, Lexaeus, Zexion, Larxene, and Marluxia are expunged in that game-and are self contained in that one game. They are not mentioned once in Kingdom Hearts II-as if they never existed. The only exception being their "tombstones" in TWTNW (and only someone who completed COM would even know WTF they meant.) Even so, it is highly unimportant as you can "skip" COM and earnestly not need to know what the hell "Savage Nymph", "Cloaked Schemer", "Silent Hero", "Chilly Academic", and "The Graceful Assassin" mean. That is just how "pointless" they are were in the long run of things. Not even their names are on the tombstones for goodness sakes. Just so you know, I am not counting KH2:FM+ when I say this.

You can argue that we saw the somebodies/original selves of the first three in Birth By Sleep-but this contributes nothing to the plot as we were already informed they were ATW’s Apprentices. Moot point there.

The events of Castle Oblivion are totally shot out of the window and are never mentioned (perhaps once in the Secret Ansem Reports, I am not sure.) Even so, not in the main story itself.

The only thing that mattered was Sora’s stasis in the end which led to the regaining of his fragmented memories, and Riku's meeting of Diz and conquering AnsemSod which all happened...in the end. Everything else that happened before the end relates naught to KHII. (I.E. the five Organization Members, the Riku Replica conflict, Castle Oblivion altogether)

In the long run of Days, the only thing that truthfully mattered was Xion’s re-mergence with Sora so that he can finally awaken in the end.


Both stories are marginally “unimportant” and their plots, per se, have little significance to Kingdom Hearts II-only their ultimate endings. You have to look at it from all perspectives, not only the ones which support your argument. Calling Days “unimportant” is essentially the same as calling COM “unimportant,” which could not be farther from the truth. If Days is not a “necessity” then neither is Chain of Memories. Days and COM are arguably more connected than COM/KH2, as Days is actually integrated with COM. I would reassess that analysis if I were you. The only thing that "saves" this argument (partly) is the fact Days was thought of last-and thus needed to coincide with COM to make things work out. Even so, the principle still stands.

So, the Org members attacking others, including Sora, with Nobodies and Heartless aren't good reasons for attacking them?

Read my prior response to Smile about the Organization and their control over Nobodies. I happily stand corrected on that much. My point was, as antagonists, fighting them was borderline worthless aside from this. They are barely a “true” threat. That is my main point.

The Org kidnapping Kairi and keeping information about Riku's whereabouts while taunting Sora about it isn't reason enough for Sora to get angry enough to go against them? LOLWUT?

Reika, please replay Kingdom Hearts II. :smile:And did you read that last earlier post? Did The “information” on Riku was negligible, and mentioned…how many times? I will not dissemble to know the answer, but it was never a true driving force for Sora to pursue the Organization. If so, as Smile did, point me to the right direction. Sora imposed his inquiries regarding Riku to Xemnas-who dodged the bullet and threw it all on King Mickey. After that; Riku wut? After that last bit with the Land of the Dragons, Riku was a blimp on the radar. He was “okay” and Sora left it alone. His main focus was actually Kairi…who was abducted…near the end of the game for no reason other than to provide Sora a true incentive for heading to the World That Never Was and kicking their asses. Crap writing at its finest. A damsel in distress, a total ass pull.

Didn't Days waste that potential even more so? They didn't do anything except give optional NPC comments, or harp on about Xion. :/

Tell me, what’s worse?

1. Having those NPCs and having some sort of relation with them in Days, pairing in missions and what not, getting clearer insight on their personalities and realizing just how Organization XIII functions as a whole-

OR

2. Making them substandard antagonists that are rarely seen throughout the game, and apparently so insignificant, other than Xaldin, Xemnas, Saix, we don’t even learn their damn names. Had I not wasted two years of my life living on KingdomHearts2.net/Khinsider.com two years before KH2 released- I would have no idea WTF Xigbar, Demyx, and Luxord’s names were the first time I fought them. Once again, we have to refer to the Journal to know the name’s of who the hell we just killed. While you a trying to kill them, and know that they are “dangerous,” you have no idea WTF their names are. Think about that. Introducing “important” characters in a story, and having you fight them, without telling you their damn names. Think about that.

I’m not going to sit here and lie that Days did not squander the potential of Organization XIII. But I adamantly stand by KHII doing it radically worse. At least I have a sense of who they are in Days-as opposed to KHII.

Are you describing them in Days here, or in KH2? It's hard to tell.

Kingdom Hearts II. However, both of them sadly suffer from it.

This is, AGAIN, true in Days, as well. What importance did Demyx and Luxord have in Days? What backstories for each member was given to us in Days, that we SHOULD have learned SOMETHING about, considering the player character lived with them for almost a friggin year?

…I’m not arguing with that, Reika. I concur that we should have learned more about them in Days, it’s only sensible. I never said it was not present in Days, just worse in Kingdom Hearts II for the reasons I listed.

You hold these things against KH2, when Days is just as guilty, if not more so!

…No. I actually do not. All I responded to you initially was: “You hold these things against Days, when KH2 is just as guilty, if not more so!” when you said: Face it: as a KH game, it sucked worse than KH2.

See the irony here?

While Days is in fact, guilty, Kingdom Hearts II is worse in that retrospect. Both are “guilty”, only I feel KH2 is more so.

I do agree with that. But a lot of Days was unnecessary, as well, so KH2 shouldn't be the only game taking crap for having unnecessary elements. :/

AAAAGGGHHH! Lol You're saying the exact opposite of what I am. You’re taking everything I am thinking and just swapping the names of the games. All I mean is:
“But a lot of KH2 was unnecessary, as well, so Days shouldn't be the only game taking crap for having unnecessary elements. :/”

I am not saying Days is without its faults. Keep that in mind.

That's better than taking a great character like Roxas and deciding, "Hey, let's throw in another Kairi clone, have Roxas do jack shit plot-wise, for almost a year, except fanboy over said Kairi clone, which he'll do even after she dies!"

…This is subjective, that is, your definition of “jack shit.” There clearly is not “jack shit” to do in the Organization in the first place XD. I enjoyed his interactions with Xion, every second of it. With that said, I feel introducing a great character, then abandoning him all together is light years more shitty than pairing him with a character you so happen to hate. That is the definition of wasted potential. Better yet, it’s the definition of “pointless character.” Because get this: *whispers*

…in KH2…Roxas’ only purpose was to re-merge with Sora so that he could finally awake. Other than that…his struggles or time in the Org. is pretty much meaningless.None of it greatly affects Kingdom Hearts II’s overall plot. Oh wait…that sounds just like a “certain” character! *facepalm*

Alright, do you see where I’m going here? Not trying to get into another why “Character X is not pointless” argument, but I believe you caught the gist of what I am trying to get across.

I do not feel Roxas is anything near a pointless character, because of Days. In Kingdom Hearts II alone, he was a plot device. Plain and simple. I felt no sympathy at his lost. Days allowed me to appreciate Roxas…and attain a slight distaste for Sora. It’s funny how it had opposite effects on the both of us.
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If you felt Xion wasted Roxas’ potential as a character, cool. I can see why. But no matter what, that potential remained “untapped” in duration of both games if you look at it without bias. Honestly, I would have loved to see more of Roxas' growth outside from Xion myself. At the same time, I was satisfied with Days nonetheless.

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Also....liking the story is heavily depended on whether you like Xion.

In a nutshell, pretty much this. I find myself using 358/2 Days story almost interchangeably with Xion herself. In fact...I'm pretty sure I did it several times with this post XD
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[*TwilightNight*]

-for you ungrateful people

It's not my debate, but why are we ungrateful? Does Xion's glorious creation makes us owe it something?

 

[sora364]

It's not my debate, but why are we ungrateful? Does Xion's glorious creation makes us owe it something?

Yes, you owe her your life. Now bow to her and acknowledge her as your savior and patiently await her second coming; or else you are condemned to eternal damnation to suffer in the Realm of Darkness. You have been warned.

*chuckles* No, not really. That was just me inadvertently using Xion synonymous with 358/2 Days. You aren't really ungrateful-thus the "" afterwards. It's that um...er..."S" word we were discussing a while back XD

 

[Relix]

What do people like Xion for, her original concept (female protagonist alongside Roxas who influences him into leaving the evil organization and somehow being lost to memory) or for her actual final production executed role (being emo in her room, with Riku, on DI, with Axel, getting owned by Saix who I believe to be the true hero of Days, being emo with Roxas, running away twice! or was it three times?, crying on her bed, fighting Roxas, fighting Axel, being on our DS screen for more than 2 hours of game, becoming the main character of Days, correction, becoming the game itself, RUINING DEEP DIVE, and not being remembered in the end to turn the entire game into a filler)?

She was good for nothing! What did she do Besides relay memories from Riku to Sora, I think thats what happened. Even so they could have easily used Namine for that? Squat! Nothing!! I can not see anything relevant that Xion did that couldn't be executed in a way the series has already introduced. To get a hint at Ven? The secret ending of KH2 final mix and BBS could cover this. In KH2 Roxas' is leaving TWTNW and yadda yadda yadda, then Roxas says, "Why did the keyblade choose me? I gotta know." Plus the fact that Riku said him leaving was so he could meet Sora, could have been absolutely flawless reasons for Roxas to leave and even fight Xemnas so he could leave, but NOO! Xion tells Roxas to take on Xemnas! Roxas leaves the Organization because he is spurred by Xion's leave AGAIN! I mean what did she do? What was her purpose!? I'm not even trying to start a war or anything, I just want someone to explain to me what was the importance of her being in existence? I mean even the laws of the universe shifted to make so Xion never existed technically by having her erased from everyone's memories. This was the universe making Nomura and Square know that she is not supposed to be. If DiZ should be prejudice against anyone it should be Xion...I demand an explanation!

 

[sora364]

What do people like Xion for, her original concept (female protagonist alongside Roxas who influences him into leaving the evil organization and somehow being lost to memory)

...Actually, when I first asked why people hate Xion-this exact answer was ironically supplied. Interesting, lol.

or for her actual final production executed role (being emo in her room, with Riku, on DI, with Axel, getting owned by Saix who I believe to be the true hero of Days, being emo with Roxas, running away twice! or was it three times?, crying on her bed, fighting Roxas, fighting Axel, being on our DS screen for more than 2 hours of game, becoming the main character of Days, correction, becoming the game itself, RUINING DEEP DIVE, and not being remembered in the end to turn the entire game into a filler)?

I think I just misread that. Did you say that Saix was the true hero? Wow. Care to explain why? Haha. Dear god...I enjoyed beating the living daylights out of him towards the end And don't get me started on Xemnas who I instantly yearned to castrate after finishing Days-and threw in KH2 just to whip his ass for a sense of self-gratification. Though...I would have prefered to kill him with Roxas instead of Sora :/

And about "ruining" Deep Dive. Well...to this day...I still pretend Xion does not exist when watching that scene. Sure...it explains why Roxas randomly tossed Riku the Oblivion only to fight him seconds later...but Xion's presence in that scene still feels "wrong" to me. Though, I credit my disdain for her role in it to me growing attached to the original version of it, nothing against Xion herself per se.

 

[Smile]

I think it gave a pretty nice explanation to why Roxas didn't call the Oblivion back from Riku. Sure, it seemed like he wasn't aware of it in KH2 when Sora pulled that trick on him when they fought in the Stations, but I doubt that if he wanted it to return badly enough, that it wouldn't have, Riku's Wielder status be damned.

 

[Reika]

Isn't obvious? Goofy stole them! It's the only explanation as of to why he is so smart and Sora is a complete and utter dumbass! Do the math.

He must have. xD He was the only semi-smart character in KH2 that wasn't an antagonist.

Any way, you are most certainly correct. Kingdom Hearts II served importance...as did Days, only in a separate way as I noted in one of my opening posts in this thread.

If the post you're speaking of is your first post on page 2, then I've just read it.
And.... I don't quite agree. First of all, nowhere in your post (and I've re-read it three times to be sure) did you explain how Days was essential to the story. You just gave two examples of how OTHER characters are similar to Xion importance, but you never said why Days/Xion itself was important. So your point on this is lost to me.
Unless your point was that Days could be relevant to future installments. But, as it stands, whether future installments make it relevant or not, that doesn't make it important now.
Which pretty much breaks away from what the games have done thus far; as I've said before, all KH games EXCEPT for Days were necessary when they were made, because they helped us to understand both past AND future games. Days hasn't helped us understand future games yet, but it certainly hasn't helped us understand past games. So far, every KH game except for Days was not self-contained, even when it's the newest game out, it was still necessary to help understand past games. Days did not help us do that, because KH2 did the job just fine.

Reika, you adventitiously just confirmed Kingdom Hearts II bears virtually no semblance to a plot (in a more so radical way than any example I have listed.) Allow me to define “Plot”

The plot is the sheer quintessence of the story. It is the very fabric that laces all the subsequent events of the storyline into one massive tale. Essentially, “The Plot” is a conglomeration, a chain, or web, of all the events linking the beginning of a story to the end. Depending on who you ask, the “middle” or how you get to the “end” is the core of the entire story. Thus, the plot. A “beginning” and an “end” are not a plot. You are neglecting the most imperative piece-middle/plot itself.

I know that is not the way you meant that, but next time-select your terminology a bit more meticulously

At any rate…you are still partially correct. That is a complete mess, and by no means a plot. If it were an actual plot, the ending would have been literally no where as anticlimactic as it concluded. Kingdom Hearts II has a “plot,” not plot.

Actually, I see the last visit to Twilight Town/beginning of TWTNW to be the "middle". The plot was just split up a bit, showing us small tidbits here and there, and then shoving the rest of the plot at the end. KH1 and CoM did this, too, just not to the extremes that KH2 did. With KH1 and CoM, we'd go to Disney worlds that had Disney plots that had nothing to do with the overall plot of the game. But there would be small plot tidbits in some worlds, and of course, a certain goal that SDG had for visiting each world (he was searching for Riku and Kairi in KH1, and that was his reason for visiting worlds in KH1; in CoM, he visited Disney worlds just get through CO; in KH2, he visited Disney worlds to search for Riku). KH2 just had longer blank periods. But there were still parts of the plot throughout the game (like the Organization members popping up, finding out about Kairi's kidnapping, taunts about Riku's whereabouts, etc.)
Days did this, too, where we'd have long periods of nothing by missions that served no importance to the overall plot, but once in a while, a scene or two would pop up and add a little bit to the story.

By the way, I never said Kingdom Hearts II was not pivotal to the story-just that it is complete and utter ****. Total difference.

…As for “gave closure to the endings of KH1 and COM” Kingdom Hearts 1? Yes. Chain of Memories? Not at all whatsoever, unless I have missed some critical piece of information. If so, I request that you enlighten me (I’m serious,not joking around.) This is literally half the reason I loathe Kingdom Hearts II's story.

Reflect on the ending of Chain of Memories. Now, tell me how those events were representative of the end of Kingdom Hearts II? In fact, other than Sora's comatose stasis and the "Thank Namine" note in Jiminy's journal...Chain of Memories references are non-existent-which is disappointing. It is almost the same as Xion, forgotten and never mentioned again. One of the reasons I loathe KHII is because it disregards all the intriguing elements introduced in COM. It almost feels as if COM was pointless.

Oh, I know. I don't deny that it sucked. My point is just that, despite the crappy writing, it still one-ups Days in the fact that it was necessary and Days wasn't. That's why I find KH2 to be the superior of the two games.

KH2 showed us what happened after CoM, like when Sora woke up, did he get ALL his memories back, what happened to the characters (Riku especially), did Sora ever finally FIND Riku (which was his original goal in CoM), and did they ever go home, etc.

Please refer to my earlier post near the beginning of this thread. It is too early to make such an audacious conclusion. That is being needlessly dismissive and insular (not saying that you are) The series has not ended-and Xion still has much unexplored potential. I have already admitted most of her actions were "self contained in Days"-but Days did foreshadow (to a lesser extent) Birth by Sleep, which was unreleased at the time. We learn that Xemnas is familar with Ventus, and is searching for him (hinting at the fate of a certain someone in BBS) The latter also addresses Xigbar. We learn why Roxas can Dual Wield (you can ramble about not "needing" to know this and it being "retconned"-at the end of the day, it's the new true canon explanation) and so on. So to answer your question, it has foreshadowed to a "future" game that has already been released. Now, for games that extend after KH2's storyline, that much I cannot say. However, as I noted in my earlier post: Xion has been referenced in Blank Points and mentioned in Re:Coded. This alone quantifies that Xion has a lingering chance of "redeeming" herself for you ungrateful people Just be patient. When the franchise ends and nothing comes to light of Days-then and only then can we truthfully say it was not needed.

How, though, COULD it serve a purpose in future games? All it told us was there was a clone named Xion and what all Roxas did during the year of his existence. I don't see how any of this even could become important.
Yes, Xion was mentioned in the BBS and Re:Coded secret endings. And there IS a reason, a reason that was explained in Coded; she's in torment. Why is she mentioned? Because she is one of the characters that needs her torment to be eased. But that's a Xion-contained thing, easing her torment will only help Xion. All it does to the plot is give Sora another goal that won't really do him any good.
Personally, I find this whole torment thing to be crap, anyway. I don't see how easing ANYONE's torment is going to be pivotal to the overall KH plot. I don't see HOW it could.

Can I ask you something, Reika? Using your reasoning, something conflicts me. What distinguishes Chain of Memories from 358/2 Days in matters of overall precedence? Because no matter how much I enjoyed Days: COM>>>>Days. Allow me to explain:

Be pensive for a moment. Vexen, Lexaeus, Zexion, Larxene, and Marluxia are expunged in that game-and are self contained in that one game. They are not mentioned once in Kingdom Hearts II-as if they never existed. The only exception being their "tombstones" in TWTNW (and only someone who completed COM would even know WTF they meant.) Even so, it is highly unimportant as you can "skip" COM and earnestly not need to know what the hell "Savage Nymph", "Cloaked Schemer", "Silent Hero", "Chilly Academic", and "The Graceful Assassin" mean. That is just how "pointless" they are were in the long run of things. Not even their names are on the tombstones for goodness sakes. Just so you know, I am not counting KH2:FM+ when I say this.

You can argue that we saw the somebodies/original selves of the first three in Birth By Sleep-but this contributes nothing to the plot as we were already informed they were ATW’s Apprentices. Moot point there.

The events of Castle Oblivion are totally shot out of the window and are never mentioned (perhaps once in the Secret Ansem Reports, I am not sure.) Even so, not in the main story itself.

The only thing that mattered was Sora’s stasis in the end which led to the regaining of his fragmented memories, and Riku's meeting of Diz and conquering AnsemSod which all happened...in the end. Everything else that happened before the end relates naught to KHII. (I.E. the five Organization Members, the Riku Replica conflict, Castle Oblivion altogether)

In the long run of Days, the only thing that truthfully mattered was Xion’s re-mergence with Sora so that he can finally awaken in the end.

Ah, but there's a difference here between your example and my feelings on Xion/Days; the Org is CoM were necessary additives, Xion was not.
In order for a story to be a story, there must be conflict, which necessitates antagonists. With CoM, they couldn't give us antagonists we had from KH1, because they were all, well, dead (to our knowledge; KH2 retconned that). And even if they weren't, none of the "live" KH1 villains, such as Ursula and Jafar, would have served as adequate antagonists for an entire game. So new characters needed to be added to act as antagonists and create conflict. And while they didn't serve any importance outside of CoM, CoM itself did.
This is the complete opposite of Days. Xion wasn't needed for there to be conflict in the game, because we already had protagonists and antagonists. She was an unneeded extra.
Also, unlike with CoM, Days did not serve a purpose to the KH plot as a whole. CoM did. Even though the antagonists in CoM were self-contained into the one game, they were still necessary to help drive the plot of said game, and said game was necessary because it showed us the continuation of KH1, and gave us information needed to understand KH2.
Days, on the other hand, was supposed to show us what Roxas did in his time in the Organization.... but that, too, was not necessary because were already shown the important moments of his time in the Organization through flashbacks in KH2. CoM would have been hard to describe in flashbacks, especially with Reverse/Rebirth.

Both stories are marginally “unimportant” and their plots, per se, have little significance to Kingdom Hearts II-only their ultimate endings. You have to look at it from all perspectives, not only the ones which support your argument. Calling Days “unimportant” is essentially the same as calling COM “unimportant,” which could not be farther from the truth. If Days is not a “necessity” then neither is Chain of Memories. Days and COM are arguably more connected than COM/KH2, as Days is actually integrated with COM. I would reassess that analysis if I were you. The only thing that "saves" this argument (partly) is the fact Days was thought of last-and thus needed to coincide with COM to make things work out. Even so, the principle still stands.

As I explained above, CoM was not important. It helped drive the overall KH plot on by showing us what SDG did after KH1, if they found the King and Riku, etc. KH1's ending paved the path for CoM, because CoM built upon that path.
The path that Days showed us was already shown to us in flashbacks of KH2. We didn't NEED a separate game to explain it, because it was already explained in KH2.
KH needed the extra game (CoM) to explain how the story continued, as that would have been something that couldn't be explained in flashbacks without it resulting in shittier writing than KH2. KH DIDN'T need Days to explain what Roxas did during the year, because KH2 already did that.

Read my prior response to Smile about the Organization and their control over Nobodies. I happily stand corrected on that much. My point was, as antagonists, fighting them was borderline worthless aside from this. They are barely a “true” threat. That is my main point.

Sorry, when I posted my last response, I didn't know there had been a whole conversation posted while I was typing up my reply. ^^;

But I believe they ARE a true threat. Unless you think that them going around and stealing a ton of peoples' hearts is hardly a HORRIBLE deed that needed to be stopped. If that's the case, then why have Sora fight Heartless in KH1, when he fought them for pretty much the same reason?
And considering the leader of the Organization is the asshole that screwed up Sora's life and friends in KH1, I think Xemnas could definitely be seen as a true threat (although he had more potential that wasn't used; he could have been an even more sadistic bastard than he turned out to be. Regardless, that doesn't make him a worthless villain, he still did some pretty horrible things).

Reika, please replay Kingdom Hearts II. :smile:And did you read that last earlier post? Did The “information” on Riku was negligible, and mentioned…how many times? I will not dissemble to know the answer, but it was never a true driving force for Sora to pursue the Organization. If so, as Smile did, point me to the right direction. Sora imposed his inquiries regarding Riku to Xemnas-who dodged the bullet and threw it all on King Mickey. After that; Riku wut? After that last bit with the Land of the Dragons, Riku was a blimp on the radar. He was “okay” and Sora left it alone. His main focus was actually Kairi…who was abducted…near the end of the game for no reason other than to provide Sora a true incentive for heading to the World That Never Was and kicking their asses. Crap writing at its finest. A damsel in distress, a total ass pull.

Again, I didn't know an entire conversation had been posted while I was typing up my reply, so I didn't see what you and Smile talked about until now.

And while I do agree that Riku and Kairi weren't always his driving force, they did serve as reasons to fight the Organization a couple of times.
And there was still the thing about the Org going around and stealing peoples' hearts for their own selfish gain. Sora kinda needed to step in on that. :/

Tell me, what’s worse?

1. Having those NPCs and having some sort of relation with them in Days, pairing in missions and what not, getting clearer insight on their personalities and realizing just how Organization XIII functions as a whole-

OR

2. Making them substandard antagonists that are rarely seen throughout the game, and apparently so insignificant, other than Xaldin, Xemnas, Saix, we don’t even learn their damn names. Had I not wasted two years of my life living on KingdomHearts2.net/Khinsider.com two years before KH2 released- I would have no idea WTF Xigbar, Demyx, and Luxord’s names were the first time I fought them. Once again, we have to refer to the Journal to know the name’s of who the hell we just killed. While you a trying to kill them, and know that they are “dangerous,” you have no idea WTF their names are. Think about that. Introducing “important” characters in a story, and having you fight them, without telling you their damn names. Think about that.

I’m not going to sit here and lie that Days did not squander the potential of Organization XIII. But I adamantly stand by KHII doing it radically worse. At least I have a sense of who they are in Days-as opposed to KHII.

We didn't get much insight on their personality in Days, actually. The little bit of personality we saw of them in KH2 was pretty much all we got. We knew Demyx was a lazy wimp, based on KH2. That's all we saw in Days, as well. We knew Luxord was a gambler and game fanatic that liked to speak about games and in game terms, based on KH2. That's all we saw in Days. We knew Xigbar was a crafty and mysterious man, with obvious ties to a past we hadn't seen yet, based on KH2. That's all we saw in Days. Days did not remedy what KH2. The ONLY thing Days did to them that KH2 didn't was show us their names in the opening theme. That was it. So I fail to see your point.

Kingdom Hearts II. However, both of them sadly suffer from it.

Then we are agreed on something.

…I’m not arguing with that, Reika. I concur that we should have learned more about them in Days, it’s only sensible. I never said it was not present in Days, just worse in Kingdom Hearts II for the reasons I listed.

As I said above, Days did not remedy or one-up KH2's mistake. It took that mistake for a stroll around the block and showed us that Luxord and Demyx were nothing but 1-dimensional characters. It was DAYS that confirmed that what KH2 showed was true.

…No. I actually do not. All I responded to you initially was: “You hold these things against Days, when KH2 is just as guilty, if not more so!” when you said: Face it: as a KH game, it sucked worse than KH2.

See the irony here?

While Days is in fact, guilty, Kingdom Hearts II is worse in that retrospect. Both are “guilty”, only I feel KH2 is more so.

It would ironic, if I meant those two along the same lines. Yes, KH2 is guilty of it more than Days here, but KH2 has a one-up on Days that makes Days worse than KH2; KH2 was necessary to the story, much as you're probably sick of me saying it. That is my major point here, and pretty much the only reason why I'm even debating right now, because I find KH2 to be the superior due to that one thing. It may not be superior in storytelling exactly, but if we had to be rid of one of them, it would be Days. Hell, you can play every game EXCEPT Days and still understand 99% of the story. But if you play ever game except KH2, you'd be left with more than a few questions.
That's my overall point, and my reasoning for why I find KH2 to be superior to Days overall.

AAAAGGGHHH! Lol You're saying the exact opposite of what I am. You’re taking everything I am thinking and just swapping the names of the games. All I mean is:
“But a lot of KH2 was unnecessary, as well, so Days shouldn't be the only game taking crap for having unnecessary elements. :/”

I am not saying Days is without its faults. Keep that in mind.

The reason why I brought that up is it sounded like you were using the crappy elements of KH2 as a defense for Days, even though Days is just as guilty. I didn't realize that wasn't your intention. My apologies.

…This is subjective, that is, your definition of “jack shit.” There clearly is not “jack shit” to do in the Organization in the first place XD. I enjoyed his interactions with Xion, every second of it. With that said, I feel introducing a great character, then abandoning him all together is light years more shitty than pairing him with a character you so happen to hate. That is the definition of wasted potential. Better yet, it’s the definition of “pointless character.”

Thing is, I didn't used to hate Xion. I LOVED Xion. And even then, I saw that Roxas did pretty much nothing but fanboy over her (which is why I was a RokuShi fan for a while). It's not because I hate her that I think this way, because I thought this way when I liked her.
Roxas had potential that was wasted due to the fact that he DIDN'T do anything. XION drove the plot, and badly, I might add. I thought that way when I liked her and the game, and I still think that way now.

Because get this: *whispers*

…in KH2…Roxas’ only purpose was to re-merge with Sora so that he could finally awake. Other than that…his struggles or time in the Org. is pretty much meaningless.None of it greatly affects Kingdom Hearts II’s overall plot. Oh wait…that sounds just like a “certain” character! *facepalm*

I do agree with that, sadly. Roxas was also a plot device created out of nowhere in the game and only served one purpose.
Here's the difference, though; Roxas didn't drive the KH2 plot, nor did the plot and characters revolve around him. Even when we played as him, what did his plot revolve around? SORA. Not Roxas, SORA. Huuuuuge difference considering that the plot device of Days WAS the plot, whereas Roxas wasn't. KH2 treated Roxas like the plot device he was. Days treated Xion like she was the main protagonist of the KH games altogether.

Alright, do you see where I’m going here? Not trying to get into another why “Character X is not pointless” argument, but I believe you caught the gist of what I am trying to get across.

I do not feel Roxas is anything near a pointless character, because of Days. In Kingdom Hearts II alone, he was a plot device. Plain and simple. I felt no sympathy at his lost. Days allowed me to appreciate Roxas…and attain a slight distaste for Sora. It’s funny how it had opposite effects on the both of us.
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If you felt Xion wasted Roxas’ potential as a character, cool. I can see why. But no matter what, that potential remained “untapped” in duration of both games if you look at it without bias. Honestly, I would have loved to see more of Roxas' growth outside from Xion myself. At the same time, I was satisfied with Days nonetheless.

Roxas had a point, in being required to wake Sora up. And considering Nobodies being around (and they were around since CoM, BEFORE we knew of Roxas) and Sora having become a Heartless in KH1, it wouldn't have made sense for him not to have a Nobody.
Again, Roxas was a plot device and was treated as such. Xion was a plot device, but was treated as the center of attention and importance, even though she is, as a plot device, not deserving of either trait.

 

[Relix]

...Actually, when I first asked why people hate Xion-this exact answer was ironically supplied. Interesting, lol.

the point was to give two reasons that either way meant she was a bad character to start with.

I think I just misread that. Did you say that Saix was the true hero? Wow. Care to explain why? Haha. Dear god...I enjoyed beating the living daylights out of him towards the end And don't get me started on Xemnas who I instantly yearned to castrate after finishing Days-and threw in KH2 just to whip his ass for a sense of self-gratification. Though...I would have prefered to kill him with Roxas instead of Sora :/

And about "ruining" Deep Dive. Well...to this day...I still pretend Xion does not exist when watching that scene. Sure...it explains why Roxas randomly tossed Riku the Oblivion only to fight him seconds later...but Xion's presence in that scene still feels "wrong" to me. Though, I credit my disdain for her role in it to me growing attached to the original version of it, nothing against Xion herself per se.

Saix was the only one (and xemnas to an extent) to see through Xion and her lies!!! Her sueish and horrible developed shemale lies!! He was trying to save us all!! -cries-

Anyways the fact that they even had the balls to rape my childhood, I was so disgusted that I just...I just...I just created my own vendetta against Xion. She must be disposed of. I shall finish was Saix started.

 

[Smile]

Saix was the only one (and xemnas to an extent) to see through Xion and her lies!!! Her sueish and horrible developed shemale lies!! He was trying to save us all!! -cries-

I think he was jealous her and Roxas were stealing his Lea-kins.

 

[Relix]

I think he was jealous her and Roxas were stealing his Lea-kins.

*gasp* bite your tongue!!! lol even so, his heart (lol) was in the right place.

 

[Goldpanner]

Roxas had a point, in being required to wake Sora up. And considering Nobodies being around (and they were around since CoM, BEFORE we knew of Roxas)

Xemnas was in KH1's FM, so before then ;D

 

[*TwilightNight*]

Debating about one shitty game with another shitty game isn't going to solve or prove anything as they're both still shitty. The only difference is that some elements would probably be preferred over others. And that simply rests on opinion.

For example, I can play KH2 and not worry about it grating on my nerves. Someone else might think differently.

Yes, you owe her your life. Now bow to her and acknowledge her as your savior and patiently await her second coming; or else you are condemned to eternal damnation to suffer in the Realm of Darkness. You have been warned.

*chuckles* No, not really. That was just me inadvertently using Xion synonymous with 358/2 Days. You aren't really ungrateful-thus the "" afterwards. It's that um...er..."S" word we were discussing a while back XD

I wouldn't be surprised if that actually did happen with 358/2 Days' black hole.

Nonetheless, there's sarcasm, and then there's sarcasm aimed towards someone or a group. Using the latter, you got to watch your wording carefully.

Saix was the only one (and xemnas to an extent) to see through Xion and her lies! I shall finish was Saix started.

Going on without the exaggeration, I actually loved Saïx in the game. Despite that he was demoted to the expected big meanie who was oh so horrible to poor wittle Xion in an unrelenting personal vendetta emerging from practically nothing since the get-go (even with Roxas there to pick on too, just not on the same level as that wretched clone on his side, for some reason), at least it kept him much more in character than everyone else so far.

Well, he didn't make me roll my eyes, criticize wtf he was doing, or ask myself whether he was lobotomized somewhere down the line. The only other one to do that was Naminé (bless her lack of appearances) and some members who weren't involved in Xion's presence.

Thing is, I didn't used to hate Xion. I LOVED Xion. And even then, I saw that Roxas did pretty much nothing but fanboy over her (which is why I was a RokuShi fan for a while). It's not because I hate her that I think this way, because I thought this way when I liked her.
Roxas had potential that was wasted due to the fact that he DIDN'T do anything. XION drove the plot, and badly, I might add. I thought that way when I liked her and the game, and I still think that way now.

Ah, the good ol' days (lawl, pun). Granted, I didn't like the idea whatsoever, as the premise was ridiculous and unoriginal, but I decided to give the benefit of the doubt until it came. Reading it through summaries, I thought, not bad...the character Xion, hmm, I can remain neutral to. Doesn't sound horrible so far. I was even shipping it with Riku (by the way, Smile, did you take me out of the club yet?).

Then I actually played it :/.

 

[Reika]

Xemnas was in KH1's FM, so before then ;D

I meant the concept of Nobodies. xD Xemnas being a Nobody wasn't mentioned in FM. But Nobodies WERE implied and hinted towards in CoM.

Debating about one shitty game with another shitty game isn't going to solve or prove anything as they're both still shitty. The only difference is that some elements would probably be preferred over others. And that simply rests on opinion.

For example, I can play KH2 and not worry about it grating on my nerves. Someone else might think differently.

I do agree with this. When I made that one small comment, I didn't expect it to spark this big of a debate. xD;

Ah, the good ol' days (lawl, pun). Granted, I didn't like the idea whatsoever, as the premise was ridiculous and unoriginal, but I decided to give the benefit of the doubt until it came. Reading it through summaries, I thought, not bad...the character Xion, hmm, I can remain neutral to. Doesn't sound horrible so far. I was even shipping it with Riku (by the way, Smile, did you take me out of the club yet?).

Then I actually played it :/.

Agreed, until that last part. I played it and loved it... for a while. Then I took a trip to the Xion HC, expecting it to piss me off in the same manner the Kairi HC used to piss me off, and found myself laughing at the jokes and agreeing with the points. And that's what showed me how shitty the game truly was. xD
Hell, I didn't realize how badly done KH2 was until I came to this website and watched people bring up a ton of points of why they hated it. Granted, I still love KH2, but at least now I admit it's crappy and love it anyway.

 

[*TwilightNight*]

I do agree with this. When I made that one small comment, I didn't expect it to spark this big of a debate. xD;

The reason: person A hates KH2 more for *insert here*, while person B hates Days more for *insert here*. Both games are shitty, but as to what's shittier depends on person A's or person B's bad impressions of them and what's worse in their point of view.

Personally, I think a sucky plot fails more than not having a plot at all. At least people won't experience what could have been the terrible attempt at one and dislike it.

Something tells me this isn't going to conclude any time soon, though, lol xD.

Agreed, until that last part. I played it and loved it... for a while. Then I took a trip to the Xion HC, expecting it to piss me off in the same manner the Kairi HC used to piss me off, and found myself laughing at the jokes and agreeing with the points. And that's what showed me how shitty the game truly was. xD
Hell, I didn't realize how badly done KH2 was until I came to this website and watched people bring up a ton of points of why they hated it. Granted, I still love KH2, but at least now I admit it's crappy and love it anyway.

I guess 358/2 Days and me didn't click from the get-go then. I could sense that I wasn't going to like it, but hunches can be wrong. In this case, they weren't. Not only did it have the cliches I expected, it had the cliches I didn't expect, making it worse than anticipated. I already Knew it was going to die and be forgotten - there was no other choice in the matter if they didn't want to screw up KH2. If helpings of Xion weren't gorged through my throat and to my stomach for the entire 20+ hours, I probably would have been less annoyed with the character. Not that I found interest in the character itself; been there, done that. I keep saying it, but it's the truth. Clones, seen it. Struggles with identity and important choices? Seen it. Sacrifices? Seen it, twice. Xion's basically Riku Replica plot and Roxas plot rolled into one. The fact that we didn't need a second round of that when the topic was covered makes it all hard to swallow. I mean, I would have been curious, if, you know, it had problems with its gender issues as some form of originality. Sort of takes a realistic turn outside the game in one go.

Nomura saying Xion's sacrifice was channeling Sora's moral values somewhat doesn't help matters in terms of uniqueness. Well, at least it had...sex bending. I guess that's new to the series.

Despite that, I wouldn't have hated it. Just think of it as a bland addition to the cast and leave it on my "I don't care" list.