Inactive until DDD NA Release.
- May 7, 2005
- Where ever you want me to
Unless your point was that Days could be relevant to future installments. But, as it stands, whether future installments make it relevant or not, that doesn't make it important now.
This was my point, and you have done little to refute it. You are comprising irrational judgments in regards to an incomplete series. The series is still ongoing-therefore it is flippant and tactless to declare “irrelevancy” when the franchise has yet to conclude. As of “now,” the series is incomplete. Thus the logical reasoning why “now” 358/2 Days was cannot be labeled as such-other than one’s bias, of course.
Clearly, it cannot affect much of the continuity as you yourself have pointed it out- it is a “midquel.” Therefore, it is restrained between literally every game in which it preceded. It could have very little affected the already existing games, as the entire plot would grow disturbingly more convoluted as is. It must harmonize with the plots of all established games in order to fit into the main storyline.
This is not a prequel like Birth By Sleep, in which everything is free game and Nomura can pull new ideas out of his ass like toilet paper (as this is essentially Kingdom Hearts 0, the first chronological game in the series) It is written to accommodate all pre-existing games and future because of its place in the timeline. Days can only have a small affect on very small bits of COM and KHII without it screwing the hole damn thing up.
I am convinced; there is no satiating you in this issue. If Days were to measurably impact the plot (meaning all pre-existing games) it will become “ret-con central.” Or would you actually want that? What could you have realistically expected? Be sensible. Because granted Days’ place in the continuity, there is very little much it can do. Yet at the same time, even if the game clearly paves the road to future installments…you still claim it to be fruitless because “as of now” it has yet to affect anything. Seriously?
You are letting your disdain for Days eclipse your judgment. I am no shape or form trying to make you “realize that you are wrong” or “agree with me”, but at the very least, could you be a little more open minded about this?
…The impulse to end this post as it stands is overwhelming. But…since you entertained my inquiries with such a lengthy and detailed response…I shall reciprocate. All the same…I can now surmise this will be going absolutely no where. But it’s all good fun
Which pretty much breaks away from what the games have done thus far; as I've said before, all KH games EXCEPT for Days were necessary when they were made, because they helped us to understand both past AND future games.
Let’s be honest…were you expecting a “side game” after you finished Kingdom Hearts 1? Obviously they were pertinent, as those games bridged the continuity. But…*ahem*…how did Chain of Memories help us “understand” a future game? The only thing that it helped us “understand” was Sora being MIA at the beginning of KH2 and Riku’s triumph over Xehanort’s Heartless. All events which occurred at the end. The only thing that was truly relevant from COM to the continuity (KH2) was its end. Nothing more. Just-Like-Days. I wonder if you would be singing the same tune had Days released directly after Chain of Memories. Because in both titles, the plot itself was overall “worthless” in the subsequent game-and only the ending was represented. Making them no different.
Sorry, but I am finding your arguments to not only be objectionable, but one sided. If you are willing to bring the faults of Days into perspective, you must be willing to do so in all games-not excluding others for the sheer fact you so happen to resent this game. That may not be you intention, but given each and every one of your counterarguments-that is most certainly the vibe I’m getting.
Days hasn't helped us understand future games yet, but it certainly hasn't helped us understand past games.
The keyword in your sentence is “yet.” A word that brings forth the prospect of impending importance.
I have only recently asserted to you in fact, the notion of “Axel’s erratic/shifty” behavior in COM through the execution of Vexen and Zexion. However, you rejected this as “we didn’t need to know this.”-even though it answered a question that Kingdom Hearts II (the game you are adulating and showering with proclaimed “importance.”) did not address. If it helped me “understand” Axel’s actions in Chain of Memories, as long as it aided one person in understanding more about Chain of Memories, your point is moot. If you cannot accept that…I see little reason to go on with this.
It may have been irrelevant to you, but it sure as hell was relevant to me. Days shed light on a speculative moment in the franchise’s history.
So far, every KH game except for Days was not self-contained, even when it's the newest game out, it was still necessary to help understand past games. Days did not help us do that, because KH2 did the job just fine.
O really? Where is Aqua in Kingdom Hearts 1? Does Aqua even exist in Kingdom Hearts 1? Where is Aqua in Chain of Memories? Does Aqua even exist in Chain of Memories? Where is Aqua in Kingdom Hearts II? Oh wait…she does exist…only as a ******* concept in Nomura’s head-which was immediately shoved down our throats in KH2:FM.
Better yet, where the hell is Eraqus? Vanitas? TERRA? (any mention of him, and I’m not talking about Xehanort/Xemnas as nothing in any game directly implicates that he is Terra-as Terra was FORCED to be relevant only in BBS-even if the concept of his character was being created just after the creation of Xemnas)
Every character in BBS in consolidation with their actions were not “needed,” they were forced to be needed. Identical to Xion…who we all incidentally hate for “being forced.” Oh, I simply love the irony.
Birth by Sleep is self contained on its own merits. All it does is tell us (I’m going to play your card here) a ****load of BS “we didn’t need to know.” The same way we “didn’t need to know” the true reasoning behind Roxas dual wielding, the same way we don’t “need to know” that Terra chose Riku to become a Keyblade Wielder, as the original canon MAKES IT CLEAR without a shadow of doubt that he was selected because of the strength of his heart, but was later denied because he succumbed to darkness. The same way we “didn’t need to know” why Axel terminated Vexen and Zexion, is the same way we don’t “need to know” that Aqua’s spell is the reason why Kairi found her way to Sora and Riku/Destiny Islands.
The “original” canon predates back to KH1 and FULLY EXPLAINS it in Ansem Report 11
I have chosen a special girl. I do not know if she possesses the power of the Princesses, but there is a chance, and this is an experiment. She may lead me to the place where the one holding the key is...I shall send her off to the ocean of other worlds.
Oh, I know. I don't deny that it sucked. My point is just that, despite the crappy writing, it still one-ups Days in the fact that it was necessary and Days wasn't. That's why I find KH2 to be the superior of the two games.
I cannot fully assimilate this logic. Necessary=/=instantly better. But in the long run, it’s your opinion and I respect that. But I would much rather you say “I like KH2 more because it was more engaging to me” rather than “because it was necessary.” It sounds as if you are forcingyourself to like more than Days “because it was necessary.” Oh well.
KH2 showed us what happened after CoM, like when Sora woke up, did he get ALL his memories back, what happened to the characters (Riku especially),
You do realize this it literally all it did? Right? Things it was supposed to do. I essentially have been pointing this out for the longest in my earlier post. This does not erase the fact nothing that it totally disregards everything that happened in Chain of Memories up until the end. Dear god, I’m sick of saying that.
did Sora ever finally FIND Riku (which was his original goal in CoM), and did they ever go home, etc.
…You are trying to make Chain of Memories sounds as “necessary” as possible, aren’t you? Haha. All of that is borderline what the ending of Kingdom Hearts 1 is, and leaves you with the same questions as before. It resolves nothing. It only expanded on those points (which…according to a previous topic…means very little to you.) Well…at least in the case of Days…>_>
How, though, COULD it serve a purpose in future games? All it told us was there was a clone named Xion and what all Roxas did during the year of his existence. I don't see how any of this even could become important.
I have already made that clear. I do not know, I merely indicated that it was beyond possible. I see Roxas’ ability to Dual Wield in KH2 “important”, I find exactly what the hell Org. XIII actually did besides sit on tall ass white chairs, coming up with FAIL plans “important.” I even more so finding all the roots behind Roxas’ friendship with Axel even more so “important” as it was shoved down in our throats in a 20 second flashback and horribly written with homosexual subtexts in KHII (why are they so close in the first place?) Thanks to Days, Roxas and Axel’s friendships seems less…gay for me (not saying being gay is a bad thing XD) just that it felt like real friendship as it was proposed to be, instead of Yaoi fangirl bait. But at the end of the day, it all boils down to opinion. Take that for what you will.
Yes, Xion was mentioned in the BBS and Re:Coded secret endings. And there IS a reason, a reason that was explained in Coded; she's in torment. Why is she mentioned? Because she is one of the characters that needs her torment to be eased. But that's a Xion-contained thing, easing her torment will only help Xion. All it does to the plot is give Sora another goal that won't really do him any good. Personally, I find this whole torment thing to be crap, anyway. I don't see how easing ANYONE's torment is going to be pivotal to the overall KH plot. I don't see HOW it could.
This is the thing-why bring her up in the first place?Can you answer that? As for the torment issue…how can it not be pivotal? This is why I have been telling you to wait until the series is overbefore making rash judgments. TAV all have loose ends that are [B]not[/B] tied up. They can help him vanquish Xehanort upon their “torment being mended.” As for Xion, I cannot say. But I have a strong reason she is being brought back up for a reason. She can be just like good ol’ Repliku. >_< Let’s just wait a bit before jumping the gun, alright?
Ah, but there's a difference here between your example and my feelings on Xion/Days; the Org is CoM were necessary additives, Xion was not. In order for a story to be a story, there must be conflict, which necessitates antagonists. With CoM, they couldn't give us antagonists we had from KH1, because they were all, well, dead (to our knowledge; KH2 retconned that). And even if they weren't, none of the "live" KH1 villains, such as Ursula and Jafar, would have served as adequate antagonists for an entire game. So new characters needed to be added to act as antagonists and create conflict. And while they didn't serve any importance outside of CoM, CoM itself did.
Not necessarily. Though I see why you would be misconceived to accept that. Allow me to explicate on the overall differences that you are overlooking.
First, please realize when I say the Org in COM are self-contained, and no different from Xion. How? Because they die, affect nothing (they are introduced to us, yet forgotten by Sora. Thus are reintroduced in KHII), making them…for lack of a better word…”useless” as far as Kingdom Hearts II serves.
Them being “necessary additives?” Haha! Now, this takes me back to our first discussion in another related thread. And once again, I’m going to be you. “Of course they’re necessary…in COM! Without them, there is no plot for…COM! They were self-contained in that one game!” Now, replace “Organization XIII” with “Xion” and “COM” with “Days”…and that was pretty much you last time (even though I was saying it was important to the main storyline) This argument holds no water…unless you are solely speaking in regards to COM’s plot (and not how it relates to KH2's plot) Then, and only then are they “necessary additives” But unlike you, as you believe Xion is “pointless”, I do not feel that the Organization XIII in COM is useless. Just…wasted. As for your "dead" antagonist subject-is there a credible reason behind why Chain of Memories could not have retconned that-as it was done in KHII? You say they "would not serve as adequate antagonists for an entire game"-yet the original Kingdom Hearts confirms otherwise.
Comparing Org. XIII in COM to Ursula and Jafar…is in reality, damaging your thesis. The difference is rudimentary, yet decisive; The Organization’s actions were self-contained in Chain of Memories. In no shape or form do you see what they have done affecting the tide of Kingdom Hearts II. Only the end (exactly what you yourself brought up: Sora waking up from the pod and Riku conquering AnsemSod) is what matters. We meet Jafar and Ursula as antagonists in the original game…battle Sora’s memories of them in Chain of Memories (giving them importance in COM, albeit self-contained) and fight them againKingdom Hearts II-picking up where we left off (more so Jafar.) Not sure how you are comparing them to Ursula and Jafar…as well…both of them hold precedence in more than one game, consecutive games- might I add. Just thought I would put that out there. As far as I can see, they are not remotely comparable. Antagonists are definitely needed for a conflict…but I am saying how this conflict they presented weighs very little in Kingdom Hearts II, as does Xion’s existence in Days impact marginally nothing. You cannot accept one and reject the other. If you are unable to fully assimilate this notion, then I guess I’m done here.
This is the complete opposite of Days. Xion wasn't needed for there to be conflict in the game, because we already had protagonists and antagonists. She was an unneeded extra.
And…if per chance I say that “Organization XIII” were not needed because we already have antagonists in KH1? Does that make it any less true? Correction: she was an unwanted extra. She was needed to push Days’ plot, or else it would be an entirely different game; in the same manner Org.XII was needed to push COM’s plot-and it would be an entirely different game.
Also, unlike with CoM, Days did not serve a purpose to the KH plot as a whole. CoM did. Even though the antagonists in CoM were self-contained into the one game, they were still necessary to help drive the plot of said game, and said game was necessary because it showed us the continuation of KH1, and gave us information needed to understand KH2.
…WTF? WOW! You do realize you sound almost exactly like me the last time we held this discussion? Only difference I was arguing why Days was necessary to the KH plot XD Lmao. You admit they were self-contained, thankfully…and if you realize this…you must realize that Xion was necessary to drive the plot of the “said” game (Days.) Your bias is becoming painfully obvious. Days also shows us a continuation of KH1, so your point is debatable there. But, please specify what information was “needed” to understand KH2? I can sum up what you truthfully need to know.
Sora loses his memories and goes into a year long slumber within a pod to have them repaired by a girl named Namine. Riku conquers AnsemSOD, controlling the darkness of his heart, with the aid of a mysterious man named Diz and King Mickey. He is determined to support/reawaken Sora.
This is LITERALLY all we need to know. If you read, just this one paragraph, KH2 will make total sense. Where did I mention Org. XIII? You are giving Organization XIII far much more credit than they are deserving of.
As I explained above, CoM was not important. It helped drive the overall KH plot on by showing us what SDG did after KH1, if they found the King and Riku, etc. KH1's ending paved the path for CoM, because CoM built upon that path.
*Is confused* How in the name of god can you say that “COM was not important” but it helped “drive the overall KH plot on by…” when I say the exact same thing about Days and you hastily tell me it is “unneeded?” There is no difference other than your bias. Your statement proves it. The same rules apply to both-no questions asked. Let me guess, if I say:
.It helped drive the overall KH plot on by showing us what Roxas did before KHII, how he was enlisted in the Organization, how he became friends with Axel, what he did in duration of his time in Organization XIII etc. KH2’s beginning paved the path for Days, because KH2 built upon that path.
…I would be wrong, right? Even though I whole heartedly agree with what you said about COM (and the exact same rules apply to Days-yet you deny this) If you answer “yes” then I shall not entertain a response to any posts you do afterwards. This will only demonstrate hypocrisy on your part, and that you only substantiate topics that support YOUR argument and disregard others. For you to tell me I am wrong at this point, would be down right pretentious.
KH needed the extra game (CoM) to explain how the story continued, as that would have been something that couldn't be explained in flashbacks without it resulting in shittier writing than KH2. KH DIDN'T need Days to explain what Roxas did during the year, because KH2 already did that.
Yet you forget to mention KH2 did a notably shitty job of explainingwhat Roxas did in that one year…through…those very same shitty flashbacks that you said COM could not have been explained in. The same applies for Days. KH2 only encapsulated on how his time ended. Not saying it would be any lesscrappier, but if they were to sum up the end of Chain of Memories in a flashback and skip COM…we can easily discern the fates of Sora and Riku. However, it leaves something more to be desired.
But I believe they ARE a true threat. Unless you think that them going around and stealing a ton of peoples' hearts is hardly a HORRIBLE deed that needed to be stopped.
*Ahem* Again, please replay Kingdom Hearts II. Or better yet, why don’t you go on ahead and play the beginning of Days!?:biggrin: The Organization does not “steal” hearts from the people themselves. If you remember correctly, they require the Keyblade if they are to send a heart to their “Kingdom Hearts”-thus why they exploited Sora, Roxas, and Xion. They turn people’s good work (destroying Heartless) into their dirty work. They do-not-do- anything. They literally sit back and let the money pile in so that they can receive hearts of their own. No real harm in that…(unless you want to count Xemnas’ true motives.)
If that's the case, then why have Sora fight Heartless in KH1, when he fought them for pretty much the same reason?
Probably because they were threatening to plunge the world into DARKNESS! In conjunction with devouring the hearts of innocent people…and not because the Org. is actually doing anything…well…productive aside from wanting him to do his job as a Keyblade Wielder, so that they could get benefits too? Definitely not the same reason. It’s more or less the reason Smile and I stated earlier; dispatching Nobodies to the worlds to cause chaos. That makes them a threat. Or their actions in COM made them a threat, but this has little bearing on Kingdom Hearts II, so moot point there.
And considering the leader of the Organization is the asshole that screwed up Sora's life and friends in KH1.
Xehanort=/=Xemnas. Xehanort’s Heartless (who essentially IS Xehanort) already got his ass handed to him by Sora already. Xemnas is just his former vessel, an empty shell acting on its own accord. He’s literally only guilty by association. Though I do agree about Xemnas being the one true threat of Organization XIII in KHII.
And there was still the thing about the Org going around and stealing peoples' hearts for their own selfish gain. Sora kinda needed to step in on that. :/
…Once again. Sora did their work for them. He only stepped in at the end of the game when all was said and done (after Kingdom Hearts was pretty much completed)
This is the reason why I do not perceive them as a true threat:
Xemnas: Warriors of the Keyblade, go forth, and bring me more hearts.
*Xemnas is now fcuked*
Sora was pretty much giving him hearts the entire time, even contemplated on not using the Keyblade (though Goofy, with his stolen brain cells, makes the suggestion that he continues to use it.)
The ONLY thing Days did to them that KH2 didn't was show us their names in the opening theme. That was it. So I fail to see your point.
You sure did. And I don’t really see yours either, as I asked you which of the two were worse. Giving me main “antagonists” who are rarely seen throughout the game, whose names are a ******* mystery to us, even though they are important-or hanging out with them and gaining more insight (even if it was small) on them?
And I clearly said both games executed them badly, just telling you why I felt their role is more underwhelming in KH2 *not* because it is “necessary”- as your phrase it.
It would ironic, if I meant those two along the same lines. Yes, KH2 is guilty of it more than Days here, but KH2 has a one-up on Days that makes Days worse than KH2; KH2 was necessary to the story
By your standards. Moot point. I do not see how making something “necessary” makes it “better”, no matter how crappy it is.
much as you're probably sick of me saying it. That is my major point here, and pretty much the only reason why I'm even debating right now, because I find KH2 to be the superior due to that one thing. It may not be superior in storytelling exactly, but if we had to be rid of one of them, it would be Days. Hell, you can play every game EXCEPT Days and still understand 99% of the story. But if you play ever game except KH2, you'd be left with more than a few questions.
That's my overall point, and my reasoning for why I find KH2 to be superior to Days overall.
And this is most likely the reason why I am going to stop debating, because your reasoning, is, as I pointed out, biased. Not due to the fact you feel it is overall less shitty (we all have our views/opinions on that) but because your only crutch is that it is "necessary"-and thereby better. Which...really nullfies all reasoning for me to bother. I cannot recognize that as being any better or worse due to its "necessity"- I cannot even see how the two are related. *shrugs* Whatever.
And I would like to add…I can play every game besides Birth by Sleep and understand 99% of the story. Prequels are called that for a reason. All they do is expand the universe to the pre-established story. No different from Days-aside from the time it was conceived and its restricted place in the story. Remember that.
Thing is, I didn't used to hate Xion. I LOVED Xion.
*facepalm* *jaw drops* *experiences seizure* *faints* *reads post again* *dies*
And even then, I saw that Roxas did pretty much nothing but fanboy over her (which is why I was a RokuShi fan for a while). It's not because I hate her that I think this way, because I thought this way when I liked her.
Roxas had potential that was wasted due to the fact that he DIDN'T do anything. XION drove the plot, and badly, I might add. I thought that way when I liked her and the game, and I still think that way now.
I can understand that.
Here's the difference, though; Roxas didn't drive the KH2 plot, nor did the plot and characters revolve around him. Even when we played as him, what did his plot revolve around? SORA. Not Roxas, SORA. Huuuuuge difference considering that the plot device of Days WAS the plot, whereas Roxas wasn't. KH2 treated Roxas like the plot device he was. Days treated Xion like she was the main protagonist of the KH games altogether.
This really depends on opinion. …I honestly don’t see Xion as the main protagonist. At best, the “love interest” (even though that is NOT the case) of the protagonist, whose story so happens to revolve around from the protagonist’s eyes. But I can still see where you are coming from. But at the end of the day…they are both plot devices for the betterment of punk*** Sora.
Roxas had a point, in being required to wake Sora up. And considering Nobodies being around (and they were around since CoM, BEFORE we knew of Roxas)
…Not necessarily. It depends on how long you have…obsessed over this series. Ask anyone in this forum who “BHK” is that who registered here around 2003-2005. Also, ask them who we then called both “Shells” and the “Non Existent Ones.” Long story short: most of else knew exactly who Roxas was (ah…the countless theories) and the TGS 2003 KH2 trailer confirmed Nobodies existence before COM.
Then again, it really depends on how long you’ve been following the series-so I cannot really hold that against you. Roxas had the same “point” as Xion-main difference being he is his Nobody while Xion is the physical manifestation of his memories. Without Roxas or Xion, he’s ******.
Again, Roxas was a plot device and was treated as such. Xion was a plot device, but was treated as the center of attention and importance, even though she is, as a plot device, not deserving of either trait.
*shrugs* Yeah, I can pretty much get what you’re saying here.
I do agree with this. When I made that one small comment, I didn't expect it to spark this big of a debate. xD;
...That's the thing...it didn't. All I did was respond to that comment one small comment you did, saying why I felt KH2 was more shitty in that regard. It's just a matter of opinion-which I noted in this post. It would have ended there (save another one or two post from both of us bitching about which is shittier) but, what really started all of this- was when you responded to everything I posted AFTER I posted:
EDIT: From this point onward, this post isn't directed to Reika. Just thought I'd point that out.
That's how all of this got started...>_>