Why did the Organization XIII members travel to the future?

[OneDandelion]

Hi everyone its yaboi OneDandelion back with another theory thread because this series is so absurd I will literally never run out of questions to ask. Where is Ballad of Caius to make me look like a fool again?

Among the Organization XIII members that time traveled from the past there is:
-Marluxia
-Elrena
and presumably
-Demyx
-Luxord

Also
-Subject X?
-Ven?

The rules of time traveling to the future as we know it require the user to leave their body and journey to a place which has a vessel and a person with memories of you waiting.

The person that was waiting with memories of them must have been Braig (Luxu) and the person who made the vessels was Vexen.

Being that they must have entered the ark in the tower of KHUX to time travel, the first question is:

Did these characters travel willingly or unwillingly?

The second question is why?

Being that they must have been whole before time traveling (nobodies don't have hearts, and if they developed one it would be the nobody persona that would appear instead of the original person), this would imply that these characters were either forced to time travel with the ark or did not know they would be turned into nobodies upon arriving. Marluxia and Larxene both don't enjoy the idea of being vessels for Xehanort either.

Marluxia also mentions to Sora that one of the reasons he follows Xehanort is to balance the scales of darkness and light. But is this reason totally sufficient being that half of the Organization wasn't brought from the past in the first place? Still, perhaps the MoM had foreseen the need for additional darknesses in Xehanorts fight and had Luxu adopt them into the organization in the future - someone or something must have prompted those characters to travel in the ark in the first place.

So third question, what prompted the above members to travel to the future?

 

[AR829038]

Hi everyone its yaboi OneDandelion back with another theory thread because this series is so absurd I will literally never run out of questions to ask. Where is Ballad of Caius to make me look like a fool again?

Among the Organization XIII members that time traveled from the past there is:
-Marluxia
-Elrena
and presumably
-Demyx
-Luxord

The rules of time traveling to the future as we know it require the user to leave their body and journey to a place which has a vessel and a person with memories of you waiting.

The person that was waiting with memories of them must have been Braig (Luxu) and the person who made the vessels was Vexen.

Being that they must have entered the ark in the tower of KHUX to time travel, the first question is:

Did these characters travel willingly or unwillingly?

The second question is why?

Being that they must have been whole before time traveling (nobodies don't have hearts, and if they developed one it would be the nobody persona that would appear instead of the original person), this would imply that these characters were either forced to time travel with the ark or did not know they would be turned into nobodies upon arriving. Marluxia and Larxene both don't enjoy the idea of being vessels for Xehanort either.

Marluxia also mentions to Sora that one of the reasons he follows Xehanort is to balance the scales of darkness and light. But is this reason totally sufficient being that half of the Organization wasn't brought from the past in the first place? Still, perhaps the MoM had foreseen the need for additional darknesses in Xehanorts fight and had Luxu adopt them into the organization in the future - someone or something must have prompted those characters to travel in the ark in the first place.

So third question, what prompted the above members to travel to the future?

The recycled Org members didn't time travel. They were simply remade into Nobodies after their recompletion. The only members who time travelled were Ansem, Xemnas, Young Xehanort, Dark Riku, Xion, and Terra-Xehanort. Everyone else just got turned into Nobodies a second time.

 

[okhi12]

Dumb answer, but we'll now in due time.

I'll just say that whatever method they used to time travel, I don't think the Ark was involved. I believe they conserved their original bodies instead of being disintegrated and arrive as hearts like Maleficent supposedly did.
Unless they reconstructed their original bodies through intermediaries like Maleficent, because all replicas before Riku were a failure (even Riku replica was deemed a failure, though he worked just fine). If the Union X characters that time travelled used replica bodies, that means replicas should have existed before BBS because, you know, Ventus had a body. Unless replicas are retconned to have existed back then, that cannot be the case.

The recycled Org members didn't time travel. They were simply remade into Nobodies after their recompletion. The only members who time travelled were Ansem, Xemnas, Young Xehanort, Dark Riku, Xion, and Terra-Xehanort. Everyone else just got turned into Nobodies a second time.

I think he is referring to the time they travelled from UX era to the time of the first Org XIII, not that they time travelled again from the first Org XIII to the real Org of KH3.

 

[AR829038]

Dumb answer, but we'll now in due time.

I'll just say that whatever method they used to time travel, I don't think the Ark was involved. I believe they conserved their original bodies instead of being disintegrated and arrive as hearts like Maleficent supposedly did.
Unless they reconstructed their original bodies through intermediaries like Maleficent, because all replicas before Riku were a failure (even Riku replica was deemed a failure, though he worked just fine). If the Union X characters that time travelled used replica bodies, that means replicas should have existed before BBS because, you know, Ventus had a body. Unless replicas are retconned to have existed back then, that cannot be the case.

I think he is referring to the time they travelled from UX era to the time of the first Org XIII, not that they time travelled again from the first Org XIII to the real Org of KH3.

Ah. You're right. Must have misread it.

 

[AdrianXXII]

I think most likely the 6 known people from the Age of Fairy Tales (Ven, Elrena, Lauriam, Subject X, Demyx's Somebody, Luxord's Somebody) were tricked onto the completed ark and sent to the future.

Interesting to note is that Subject X mentions 4 friends, so either that refers to the Union leaders or to 4 of the 5 people that traveled to the era with her.

A situation I could see is Skuld, Ven, Elrena and Lauriam chasing down either Luxord's or Demyx' original selves and somehow ended up in the Ark when someone activated it on them.

The thing about needing a intermediary and someone to remember you so far was implied to only apply for the incomplete ark Malefecient will take. The way darkness worded things it seems that a completed ark wouldn't require the same sacrifice.

Also as okhi12 said, Vexen's replicas are something relatively new, so it's unlikely they were used to house the hearts and if they're bodies were originally replicas then they must have been made by someone other than Evan.

 

[Noivern]

The recycled Org members didn't time travel. They were simply remade into Nobodies after their recompletion. The only members who time travelled were Ansem, Xemnas, Young Xehanort, Dark Riku, Xion, and Terra-Xehanort. Everyone else just got turned into Nobodies a second time.

From what I understood, Terranorth did not time travel, he was just recompleted. Then Terra's heart took over the body.

That aside, I agree with Adrian in that the Union Leaders + Elriam were probably chasing someone, but Luxord and Demyx seem to know more than they let on, while Marluxia and Larxene seemed to be suffering from memory loss (Marluxia's line when we defeat him in the Graveyard hinting that only then he remembered his purpose and Strelitzia), only really being moved by faint hints of what they once were (Like Marluxia's obsession with the Keyblade).

 

[OneDandelion]

Dumb answer, but we'll now in due time.

I'll just say that whatever method they used to time travel, I don't think the Ark was involved. I believe they conserved their original bodies instead of being disintegrated and arrive as hearts like Maleficent supposedly did.
Unless they reconstructed their original bodies through intermediaries like Maleficent, because all replicas before Riku were a failure (even Riku replica was deemed a failure, though he worked just fine). If the Union X characters that time travelled used replica bodies, that means replicas should have existed before BBS because, you know, Ventus had a body. Unless replicas are retconned to have existed back then, that cannot be the case.

This is a good point too, i was wondering about this myself. It is definitely another possibility that there are other methods of time travel, and that the ark was the only one available to Maleficent.

Could it also be possible that Luxu summoned those four there the same way he summoned the other Foretellers?

The Riku Replica was a failure because it wasn't as strong as Sora or Riku, but it didn't have a heart either. I would think that although the empty vessels were not yet perfected they would still be able to host the hearts of the travelers in a weaker form. And while they were weak their hearts and bodies were split again to create their nobodies. I don't know if their nobodies forms continue to use that vessel or if it affects the manifestation of their nobody either because Roxas is clearly not born from Sora's physical body

I think most likely the 6 known people from the Age of Fairy Tales (Ven, Elrena, Lauriam, Subject X, Demyx's Somebody, Luxord's Somebody) were tricked onto the completed ark and sent to the future.

Interesting to note is that Subject X mentions 4 friends, so either that refers to the Union leaders or to 4 of the 5 people that traveled to the era with her.

A situation I could see is Skuld, Ven, Elrena and Lauriam chasing down either Luxord's or Demyx' original selves and somehow ended up in the Ark when someone activated it on them.

The thing about needing a intermediary and someone to remember you so far was implied to only apply for the incomplete ark Malefecient will take. The way darkness worded things it seems that a completed ark wouldn't require the same sacrifice.

Also as okhi12 said, Vexen's replicas are something relatively new, so it's unlikely they were used to house the hearts and if they're bodies were originally replicas then they must have been made by someone other than Evan.

I forgot about Subject X, I'll add her and Ven to the OP.

This brings up another interesting point, that among the (now 6) people [7 including Luxu] that traveled from the past it is likely that one of them is responsible for bringing them all into the future. Given that Demyx is the one playing dumb all the time naturally it must be him.

Given what was on the reports, it seems that Skuld is the only candidate for subject X being that she is the only female besides Elrena. If they all came together then it would seem Xehanort had knowledge of it because he was the first one seen with an amnesic Ven. This was several years prior to the replica program as well, so either the vessels were prepared by someone else or Ven would have had to come by a different means, same for the rest

 

[bobgoesw00t]

I think the answer is obvious..........WYNAUT!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I'M SO PUNNY!!! ...feel free to ignore me being a troll xP

 

[Twilight Lumiair]

The Riku Replica was a failure because it wasn't as strong as Sora or Riku, but it didn't have a heart either

Excuse me if this is a bit off topic, but are we truly sure that what makes a replica a "success" is based on how powerful they are? I thought it was based on how human they were, isn't that what Marluxia said about Xion in KH3? Isn't that what Vexen was aiming for with his "new" line of replicas in KH3?

"Soon they will replace, not just replicate."

Either way, Repliku wasn't that much weaker than Riku by the end of Reverse Re: birth, and would've killed Sora in their final fight if Namine hadn't intervened, so I'm confused as to how he was deemed a "failure" after we clearly see that he successfully gained his own heart, mind, conscience, and sense of identity before he died. On that note, I really hate how KH3 brought up the whole "failure"/"success" concept in regards to replicas (effectively putting a factory label on them) rather than letting them earn their humanity through their experiences like what was established in prior games. But I digress, that was just me going on a tangent.

 

[OneDandelion]

Excuse me if this is a bit off topic, but are we truly sure that what makes a replica a "success" is based on how powerful they are? I thought it was based on how human they were, isn't that what Marluxia said about Xion in KH3? Isn't that what Vexen was aiming for with his "new" line of replicas in KH3?

"Soon they will replace, not just replicate."

Either way, Repliku wasn't that much weaker than Riku by the end of Reverse Re: birth, and would've killed Sora in their final fight if Namine hadn't intervened, so I'm confused as to how he was deemed a "failure" after we clearly see that he successfully gained his own heart, mind, conscience, and sense of identity before he died. On that note, I really hate how KH3 brought up the whole "failure"/"success" concept in regards to replicas (effectively putting a factory label on them) rather than letting them earn their humanity through their experiences like what was established in prior games. But I digress, that was just me going on a tangent.

Not off topic at all, I actually don't think what made the Riku replica a "failure" was ever properly defined. Me thinking it revolves around power is a complete guess, I just don't think they'd call it a failure if it was more powerful than the original.

If their standard of measurement is based on how "human" they were they never tell us how they define that standard either. For example, if being human means having a heart then the puppets would be failures because they don't have their own hearts (although xion does end up developing her own heart later they wouldn't have called her a success without knowing that).

Although maybe they called Xion a success because she was capable of housing Sora's heart. If that is the case then you could be right, I'll have to look into that again. But if that is the case it also means that Vexen was not responsible for providing vessels for the other organization members, ven, or subject X - it would have to mean there were vessels that came from somewhere else or they traveled to the future a different way

 

[AdrianXXII]

I forgot about Subject X, I'll add her and Ven to the OP.

This brings up another interesting point, that among the (now 6) people [7 including Luxu] that traveled from the past it is likely that one of them is responsible for bringing them all into the future. Given that Demyx is the one playing dumb all the time naturally it must be him.

Given what was on the reports, it seems that Skuld is the only candidate for subject X being that she is the only female besides Elrena. If they all came together then it would seem Xehanort had knowledge of it because he was the first one seen with an amnesic Ven. This was several years prior to the replica program as well, so either the vessels were prepared by someone else or Ven would have had to come by a different means, same for the rest

Skuld does seem the most likely, but I'm hesitant to jump to conclusions. Kingdom Hearts loves it's twists.

With the information we currently have we know that Ven arrived to the present approximately 15 years before the events of KH3. We don't know, if the others did too or if they didn't. It seems very likely they did, but technically they could have arrived any time between then and the start of KH1.

I noticed something interesting about the ages of Ven, Skuld, Lea and Isa. In Union Cross Skuld is seemingly 2 to 4 years older than Ven, who is approx. 12 at the time. In BBS Ven seems to be about the same age as Lea and Isa, approx. 16. In KH3 Lea or Isa mention that Subject X was about their age. This and taking Subject X' report into consideration, might hint at her arriving 2 to 4 years later than Ven, when Ansem had already started with his research.
However there is a high likely hood I'm reading into things here.

On that note, I really hate how KH3 brought up the whole "failure"/"success" concept in regards to replicas (effectively putting a factory label on them) rather than letting them earn their humanity through their experiences like what was established in prior games. But I digress, that was just me going on a tangent.

I thought Days introduced the idea of successes and failures regarding Replicas. In one of the Secret report Xion is noted to be the first successful replica and then given the name No i. Repliku was stated as lesser, though we didn't get an explanation as to what made Xion better than Repliku.

 

[Antifa Lockhart]

I noticed something interesting about the ages of Ven, Skuld, Lea and Isa. In Union Cross Skuld is seemingly 2 to 4 years older than Ven, who is approx. 12 at the time. In BBS Ven seems to be about the same age as Lea and Isa, approx. 16. In KH3 Lea or Isa mention that Subject X was about their age. This and taking Subject X' report into consideration, might hint at her arriving 2 to 4 years later than Ven, when Ansem had already started with his research.

We already know this, the KHIII reports state that they found subject X sometime after they found Terra because Apprentice Xehanort is the one who writes her introductory entry. Xehanort makes a point to say that Subject X is the perfect experiment to continue Ansem's research and look into lost memories and reclaim his own, meaning this is happening shortly before the fall of Hollow Bastion, or about four years after Ven arrived in the present.

 

[AdrianXXII]

We already know this, the KHIII reports state that they found subject X sometime after they found Terra because Apprentice Xehanort is the one who writes her introductory entry. Xehanort makes a point to say that Subject X is the perfect experiment to continue Ansem's research and look into lost memories and reclaim his own, meaning this is happening shortly before the fall of Hollow Bastion, or about four years after Ven arrived in the present.

Oh I forgot about Secret Report 3 being written by Apprentice Xehanort. If this is Skuld, that pretty much confirms that she arrived 4 years later, because about 15 sounds right for how she looks in Union Cross.

 

[Twilight Lumiair]

I thought Days introduced the idea of successes and failures regarding Replicas. In one of the Secret report Xion is noted to be the first successful replica and then given the name No i. Repliku was stated as lesser, though we didn't get an explanation as to what made Xion better than Repliku.

You're not wrong to an extent, but being superior or inferior isn't quite the same thing as being a "success" vs being a "failure". The latter suggest failing or meeting a certain standard or specific criteria, but two things can meet a standard (and function as intended) while still having one just be better than the other. In other words, just cause Xion was "better" doesn't make Repliku an automatic "failure" if we're going by a predetermined expectation of worth.

And really when you break it down, what is it that makes Xion a better replica than Repliku? He had all of Riku's abilities, his body, his "talents", and the same affinity for darkness without being unstable and collapsing numerous times (like Xion) or forced to rely on having Riku's physical memories to use his powers (like Xion ). And both of them ended up growing hearts, minds, and their own identities, so WHY would they suddenly call one a failure? What exactly did he fail at? He wasn't weak, he wasn't a drone, he was just as manipulable as Xion (if not more), and the only reason he didn't get resurrected was because he chose not to be. I mean heck, his heart survived being in the RoD for well over a year and his resilience and affinity for it allowed him to come back out just fine (he even freaking saved Riku, retrieved Way to Dawn, and beat Dark Riku despite not having a physical body).

 

[SweetYetSalty]

You're not wrong to an extent, but being superior or inferior isn't quite the same thing as being a "success" vs being a "failure". The latter suggest failing or meeting a certain standard or specific criteria, but two things can meet a standard (and function as intended) while still having one just be better than the other. In other words, just cause Xion was "better" doesn't make Repliku an automatic "failure" if we're going by a predetermined expectation of worth.

And really when you break it down, what is it that makes Xion a better replica than Repliku? He had all of Riku's abilities, his body, his "talents", and the same affinity for darkness without being unstable and collapsing numerous times (like Xion) or forced to rely on having Riku's physical memories to use his powers (like Xion ). And both of them ended up growing hearts, minds, and their own identities, so WHY would they suddenly call one a failure? What exactly did he fail at? He wasn't weak, he wasn't a drone, he was just as manipulable as Xion (if not more), and the only reason he didn't get resurrected was because he chose not to be. I mean heck, his heart survived being in the RoD for well over a year and his resilience and affinity for it allowed him to come back out just fine (he even freaking saved Riku, retrieved Way to Dawn, and beat Dark Riku despite not having a physical body).

Riku Replica is a failure because they needed a excuse as to why he didn't get the coat, and be number XV, lol.

I guess it depends on what they were looking for in a replica in what qualifies as a result or failure. I mean both should be considered failures longterm from the Organization's perspective since both deviated from what they made them for. But both became their own people and gaining their own hearts. If Xion had eaten Roxas like Xemnas wanted her to do then she would have been more successful then the Riku Replica, but that didn't happen. Again I want more exposure on the Replica Program! Give me some hardcore long and detailed Vexen reports already!

As for the topic of why the Organization members time traveled? Has then been disclosed yet? I don't think it has.

 

[AdrianXXII]

Riku Replica is a failure because they needed a excuse as to why he didn't get the coat, and be number XV, lol

Yeah, i feel they could have still named him No. ii and not have him be a member of the Organisation. He, more than Xion, seemed to have been completed for an experiment.

Still Number XV Inoxi the Hero of Darkness, does have a nice ring to it haha.

As for the topic of why the Organization members time traveled? Has then been disclosed yet? I don't think it has.

Not really. We can only speculate why and how they came here. At least with the how we know of the ark, which seems like the likely method.

 

[ZeVaine]

I'm going to guess that the Ark malfunctions in some way, and everyone onboard wasn't necessarily sent to the exact same time... a few years apart?

 

[Deleted member 252753]

I thought Days introduced the idea of successes and failures regarding Replicas. In one of the Secret report Xion is noted to be the first successful replica and then given the name No i. Repliku was stated as lesser, though we didn't get an explanation as to what made Xion better than Repliku.

Looking at the Days report (day 23), Vexen says that the 'other vessel' is unfit for number status and is to be taken to Castle Oblivion to be experimented on. As I understand it, this is before the replica actually becomes Repliku, which I think happens during CoM, with Vexen gathering data from Riku early on in his story.

So Repliku was deemed a failure before it even had a chance to prove otherwise and in his KH3 secret reports Vexen says that Repliku was 'the first success' and so Repliku may have performed better than expected

Although maybe they called Xion a success because she was capable of housing Sora's heart. If that is the case then you could be right, I'll have to look into that again. But if that is the case it also means that Vexen was not responsible for providing vessels for the other organization members, ven, or subject X - it would have to mean there were vessels that came from somewhere else or they traveled to the future a different way

Vexen's KH3 report also says that he has been ordered to refine his prototype replicas so they could contain the hearts of members traveling from the past

 

[LoneFox]

Hello, World!

So, I couldn't resist the temptation to join this discussion anymore. It looks like it is trying to go somewhere, but no-one is putting all the pieces together...

First, is it plausible for there to be a second time machine in Daybreak Town? Turns out it is. The Master of Masters has reappeared in the far future, soon after the point of the final prophecy, where he saw light getting extinguished. How did he get there? He didn't use the ark, because it is still in the tower. I think he originally planned to use the it, which is why he built it in the first place, but then he found a better method. The ark is quite risky, because it requires there to be someone to put him back together when he arrives. Of course Luxu is supposed to be there, but also the world has just ended, which could have been bad for him.

Now, time machines in scifi stories come in two common types. They are either vehicles (like the ark) or teleporters/portals, where the device itself doesn't go anywhere when used. If it is the latter type, then it would be still available for the dandelions to use.

I'm going to guess that the Ark malfunctions in some way, and everyone onboard wasn't necessarily sent to the exact same time... a few years apart?

Yes, this would explain the time difference. But shouldn't the effects of using the ark be the same for everyone? Maleficent arrived with her body gone, but memory intact. The opposite is true for subject X, and presumably Ven as well.

However, something did malfunction in a big way. In KH3 the whole Daybreak Town is upside down under Scala ad Caelum. I don't think any time machine would have survived it, so the time travel must have happened before, or perhaps during, this catastrophe. Also, so far we don't know any reason why the dandelions would want to time travel, so was it accidental as well? To me, all this looks connected, with two possibilities: either the time machine itself blew up and blasted the dandelions through time, of something else caused the explosion and the dandelions used the time machine to escape it.

This brings up another interesting point, that among the (now 6) people [7 including Luxu] that traveled from the past it is likely that one of them is responsible for bringing them all into the future. Given that Demyx is the one playing dumb all the time naturally it must be him.

I believe we do know who is responsible. The union leaders have meaningful names. What, or who, scatters the dandelions?

 

[ZeVaine]

Well, I think that Daybreak Town we see is the REAL one... And we know everyone abandons that world, for some reason, and Schala eventually is built on top of it for some reason.

And the ark, from what I gathered, is in the fake one. It was likely meant to be revealed to the dandelions at some point, but someone interfered... And Darkness is having Maleficent use it - either to reveal to everyone that it exists, or to have her use it before the other Dandelions can accidently discover it.