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Why does kh2 final form have better combos than kh3 final form?



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the red monster

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keyblade transformations>drive forms.
in kh2 you are literally locked into picking one of 5 forms. in KH3 you have ton of options while being able to have 3 forms at once.
and ultima form hits much harder than final form imo.
 

Gu mafia

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keyblade transformations>drive forms.
in kh2 you are literally locked into picking one of 5 forms. in KH3 you have ton of options while being able to have 3 forms at once.
and ultima form hits much harder than final form imo.
Ok that may make up for that

Now what explanation do you have for there not being a hlow bastion world?

They recycled twightlight town and olympis Coliseum

But yet they couldn't recycle hollow bastion? And have a secret sephiroth battle?
 

Cumguardian69

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Because KH2 is all about weighted movement with purpose and flow. KH3 is all about "flashy haha pretty colors xD"

Final Form isn't flo*ty, it has so many mechanics at play that make you feel like a GOD. And it is on a timer to remind you that yes, you ARE a mortal.

Meanwhile Ultimate Form is flo*ty af, it has awkward teleport phases instead of naturally chaining movement, it doesn't have many mechanics at play, and its defining feature is actually the Keyblade's feature (screen nuke go brrrrt xD)

Fellas legit think ReMind wasn't just reusing KH2(FM) content.

Fellas legit think KH3 plays better than KH2 let alone 2FM

 

Strafer

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Ok that may make up for that

Now what explanation do you have for there not being a hlow bastion world?

They recycled twightlight town and olympis Coliseum

But yet they couldn't recycle hollow bastion? And have a secret sephiroth battle?

This is not related to the topic at hand in the slightest. Twilight Town and Olympus don’t seem to recycle anything. I mean I understand Twilight Town with the Old manor entrance and Tram common. Olympus was completely new map wise. Hollow Bastion and Sephiroth had no opportunity to appear story wise. They could have changed that if they wanted too though.

I do prefer Drives over Keyblade form changes.
 

Face My Fears

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I thought this game was supposed to be an upgrade from kh2

Yet theres no drive guage

And people like defending this game still for some reason
KH3 isn't an "upgrade" from KH2. The "upgrade" for KH2 was KH2FM.

KH3 is a completely new game from KH2, so expect new and different things.

I wish KH3 had a drive gauge that did nothing to satisfy you.
 

Deliverance

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KH3 is a completely new game from KH2, so expect new and different.
Nothing wrong with doing new things. But when they actively undo all the improvements made in the previous game for almost no benefit, it kinda misses the point.
 

Cumguardian69

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Nothing wrong with doing new things. But when they actively undo all the improvements made in the previous game for almost no benefit, it kinda misses the point.
Except if you paid attention to KH series you'd know that every gamr undoes the previous game's innovations:

3 didn't learn from 0.2 didn't learn from DDD didn't learn from recoded didn't learn from BBS from Days from KH2.
 

Face My Fears

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Nothing wrong with doing new things. But when they actively undo all the improvements made in the previous game for almost no benefit, it kinda misses the point.
Drive Form isn't an "improvement", it's a gameplay feature. If this was about combat, movement or story, I can understand the discussion, but opting out of Drive Forms for KH3 isn't some sort of downgrade. I really don't get how people have that mentality. It's like complaining that KH2 actively undid everything from KH1.

Maybe it's just me, but Final Form is basically god mode in KH2. All the data battles (except for Xemnas and Axel) were extremely easy due to Final Form. Ultimate Form in KH3 is not even near that level of power, especially against the Data Organization.

My opinion on the comparison between Drive Forms and Keyblade Transformations is this: Drives were a fun feature in KH2, but they also alienated aspects of the game by making you too powerful and aesthetically removing your party members, so it's all about you - which I think detracts from a KH game (especially in a KH game where the Disney worlds were empty boxes). The Keyblade Transformations actually bring together elements of the series (the keyblade you want to use and a form transformation) which feels more inclusive of everything the game has to offer. If you like using Favorite Deputy long after Toy Box, you can actually level up the keyblade and have transformations that are reminiscent of the world you obtained it in and keep the party members on the field.

Even if they don't bring Keyblade Transformations back in future games, I hope they continue features that make your choices stand out. Drive Forms were basically to turn Sora into a god and kill everything with no problems, Keyblade Transformations actually reflect your choices in the game and that's what I like most about them - they make me feel like I have an active part in how Sora plays, rather than just god mode - on/off.
 

Deliverance

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Drive Form isn't an "improvement", it's a gameplay feature. If this was about combat, movement or story, I can understand the discussion, but opting out of Drive Forms for KH3 isn't some sort of downgrade. I really don't get how people have that mentality. It's like complaining that KH2 actively undid everything from KH1.

Maybe it's just me, but Final Form is basically god mode in KH2. All the data battles (except for Xemnas and Axel) were extremely easy due to Final Form. Ultimate Form in KH3 is not even near that level of power, especially against the Data Organization.

My opinion on the comparison between Drive Forms and Keyblade Transformations is this: Drives were a fun feature in KH2, but they also alienated aspects of the game by making you too powerful and aesthetically removing your party members, so it's all about you - which I think detracts from a KH game (especially in a KH game where the Disney worlds were empty boxes). The Keyblade Transformations actually bring together elements of the series (the keyblade you want to use and a form transformation) which feels more inclusive of everything the game has to offer. If you like using Favorite Deputy long after Toy Box, you can actually level up the keyblade and have transformations that are reminiscent of the world you obtained it in and keep the party members on the field.

Even if they don't bring Keyblade Transformations back in future games, I hope they continue features that make your choices stand out. Drive Forms were basically to turn Sora into a god and kill everything with no problems, Keyblade Transformations actually reflect your choices in the game and that's what I like most about them - they make me feel like I have an active part in how Sora plays, rather than just god mode - on/off.
If a feature brings with it a slew of meaningful decision-making that wasn’t there before then I’d call that an improvement. Not sure why you’re acting like Drives exist in a vacuum. It’s not just a thing that exists in the game. It’s a mechanic that makes you take important things into account.

I had the complete opposite experience that you did. You have so much more to keep in mind with Drives. Why choose this Form over the other? Can I commit to its specific strengths and weaknesses? What if I get Anti Form? Would it be better to use a Summon instead? Should I use it now or later in a fight? Etc. Nothing similar happens with Transformations. You do 2-3 combos and you’ve got one. If it inconveniences you then just switch it out. If you wanna end it early, press triangle to nuke the whole screen. I never had to think about what I was doing. How is that not a regression in depth? You can’t even have them on command.

What’s sad is that it was entirely possible to have both transformations and the Drive Gauge. Just map them to a secondary attack button and tweak the Gauge so it’s more of a power up. (Obviously it’s not as simple as that but you get the gist)

Also I don’t think comparing Final and Ultimate Form in the context of balance makes for good discussion. Both are mainly bonus forms you get at the end and both break the game in different ways.
 

Face My Fears

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If a feature brings with it a slew of meaningful decision-making that wasn’t there before then I’d call that an improvement. Not sure why you’re acting like Drives exist in a vacuum. It’s not just a thing that exists in the game. It’s a mechanic that makes you take important things into account.

I had the complete opposite experience that you did. You have so much more to keep in mind with Drives. Why choose this Form over the other? Can I commit to its specific strengths and weaknesses? What if I get Anti Form? Would it be better to use a Summon instead? Should I use it now or later in a fight? Etc. Nothing similar happens with Transformations. You do 2-3 combos and you’ve got one. If it inconveniences you then just switch it out. If you wanna end it early, press triangle to nuke the whole screen. I never had to think about what I was doing. How is that not a regression in depth? You can’t even have them on command.

What’s sad is that it was entirely possible to have both transformations and the Drive Gauge. Just map them to a secondary attack button and tweak the Gauge so it’s more of a power up. (Obviously it’s not as simple as that but you get the gist)

Also I don’t think comparing Final and Ultimate Form in the context of balance makes for good discussion. Both are mainly bonus forms you get at the end and both break the game in different ways.
If you set Auto-Drive to happen, you just hit triangle to kill everyone.

I think this conversation basically shows why they change things - we had different experiences and perceptions. You had all this thought put into choosing drive forms. I barely used them after the first few Disney worlds and the only one I used was Valor because Wisdom is a waste of time IMO. After that I used Master Form whenever I was in a rush to get through a world and then Final Form against the Data Organization to kill them in the blink of an eye. So I think it comes down to what each individual player likes and actually uses in combat in KH. I will say that I don't really even use the keyblade transformations either when playing the story. If I feel like it, I'll use it, but Sora is already so OP on his own that it isn't a must. That's how drives are and so are keyblade transformations. The only difference that I can say is that I needed Final Form to kill the Data Organization, while Ultimate Form didn't guarantee me instant wins like Final Form. Whether that's a testament to the fights themselves or the game mechanics or me as a crappy player, I don't know.

Ultimately, I don't see what's the big deal not having drive forms. They were an additional power-up during fights that Sora can use, they just swapped that out for another power-up. I think that drive forms were perfect for KH2 and keyblade transformations were perfect for KH3. Those power-ups each suited the game that they were placed in.
 

Cumguardian69

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^ the big deal is depth of game mechanics. The closest thing in kh3 we have is the "hits" system that magic galvanizer (+food) provides
 

Face My Fears

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^ the big deal is depth of game mechanics. The closest thing in kh3 we have is the "hits" system that magic galvanizer (+food) provides
I don't really get that, maybe because I'm not a pro-gamer that analyzes all of that. I hear people talk about "floaty combat" and all these other things that go right over my head regarding the combat in KH. Almost every KH game I've played was fun and I didn't notice anything being "wrong" with the combat, even in the hard fights. The only games that I didn't particularly enjoy the gameplay were Days and Coded, but really I think that was because of the console they were on (playing them on the DS was a difficult experience for me). Maybe I have to be Level 1 with no abilities, no items, no power-ups, and using Kingdom Key to notice how "bad" the combat is, but I really don't care to do that because I see no issue with the combat in KH1, KH2 or KH3 when I'm playing them.
 

Cumguardian69

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^that's a willful refusal to acknowledge core gameplay loop differences then, because 2 absolutely does not play like any game that comes after it. 2 doesn't feel like 1 doesn't feel like 3.
 

Launchpad

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It's very dangerous to say that mechanics with depth 'don't matter' because you didn't use them. Regardless of if the common player will use Wisdom form or not doesn't matter. While tons of players will think that shooting a projectile as your base combo isn't fun, plenty will experiment with the magic and realize how fun it is to use it while mobile, and enjoy the new utility it provides in mob fights.

The way that the team has responded to and nurtured that ignorance has been the Achilles heel of the franchise since... KH1. It feels like if more than ten people think something is too hard or isn't interested, it'll disappear in the next installment. It's the very reason why every single KH game has been missing something that the last had.

Back on topic, Final Form has way more going on and feels a lot tighter than Ultimate Form. Each move in the combo flows better into the last to where it feels like a flowing, consecutive series of actions. Ultimate Form is huge and flashy, but you can for sure figure out what piece of the combo you're in at all times. It feels a bit shoddy, and less interactive than Final Form. It's just another KH3 screen nuke.

I think the more interesting and close conversation would be Final Form vs Double Form. Both are very strong, flowing, and fast, and both have more of a centered area of effect in their combos. Yes, Double Form's finish command is another screen nuke (all finish commands are screen nukes besides Ars) but the act of using Double Form feels more in line with the KH2 Drive forms with its flow.

Still giving the edge to Final Form, but hey, Double Form would definitely be the second best form in KH2.
 
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