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Why Saix did not help stop Xemnas in time when he grabbed Kairi.



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Nukara

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It seems strange to me that he did not help stop Xemnas when he grabbed Kairi. On the contrary, he blocked the road. My theory is that Saix / Isa can still not be called a completely positive character, but he switched to the side of Sora, but I think only for of being closer to Subject X. I do not deny that he wanted to; he also wanted to make peace with Lea, in the end I believe that positive qualities awoke in him. But despite the good traits, I see Isa as a person who in many ways always seeks his own gain and even if he does good things, he also seeks benefit for himself in them. Maybe he didn’t care about Sora and Kairi, because they don’t included in his plans. Also, as I do not think that he really had anything to do with Roxas and Xion, but he considered Lea to be his friend and I’m sure, nevertheless, he considered himself guilty before him.
This is just my vision.
 

Ink Ribbon

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I always wondered if that Berserk phase had something to do with Xemnas' or more to an extent of Xehanort's influence. I'm not sure if it's really necessarily mind control or just something that sends Isa/Saix into such a blind fit of rage he doesn't have full control over himself. I don't think we've actually gotten the full details behind that ability he has. Maybe it was from when Xehanort turned into a nobody originally and the transformation warped his personality into such. Then being so frustrated with being unable to find Subject X and basically losing Axel as a friend, just made the rage even worse.

If going by that logic, perhaps Saix didn't have enough control to stop himself, thus being unable to help Kairi. But like you said, maybe during the fight he finally realized the good things he had were always in front of him and was able to overcome that berserk phase.
 

Nukara

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I always wondered if that Berserk phase had something to do with Xemnas' or more to an extent of Xehanort's influence. I'm not sure if it's really necessarily mind control or just something that sends Isa/Saix into such a blind fit of rage he doesn't have full control over himself. I don't think we've actually gotten the full details behind that ability he has. Maybe it was from when Xehanort turned into a nobody originally and the transformation warped his personality into such. Then being so frustrated with being unable to find Subject X and basically losing Axel as a friend, just made the rage even worse.

If going by that logic, perhaps Saix didn't have enough control to stop himself, thus being unable to help Kairi. But like you said, maybe during the fight he finally realized the good things he had were always in front of him and was able to overcome that berserk phase.
And where did the theory come from that the berserk form is an influence from Xemnas?
I am more than sure that this is the same innate ability of Isa, as well as proximity to fire in Lea. In the end, Isa's lunar forces were hinted back in the days of BBS. Yes, and I did not seem that Saix was not in control.
 

Ink Ribbon

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And where did the theory come from that the berserk form is an influence from Xemnas?
I am more than sure that this is the same innate ability of Isa, as well as proximity to fire in Lea. In the end, Isa's lunar forces were hinted back in the days of BBS. Yes, and I did not seem that Saix was not in control.

Okay hopefully this makes sense. Im probably totally wrong so here goes lol.

As far as Xemnas, Im starting to reevaluate my thoughts. I think I was always it was just the fact that Xehanort had some form (Xemnas) around as some influence. Perhaps more as an emotional manipulator than necessarily control his mind. He probably is aware of Isa/Lea’s friendship to an extent and could’ve sort of rubbed salt in the wound by making Saix be the one to send Axel off on missions with Roxas and Xion. So kind of an indirect way to frustrate Saix, just fueling that berserk form even more.

We really don’t know much about Saix, Xehanort and Xemnas interactions in KH3 (atleast not yet because of Remind maybe) so I can’t really say he said anything there. I think if he hadn’t been in berserk form during that cutscene, he probably would’ve stepped in to help out.
 

okhi12

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If Saïx really meant to be a good guy again, I think he didn't even know that Xehanort was going to kill her. He probably thought Xehanort would keep her hostage, forcing Sora to fight to free her, not that he would actually harm her in the worst way possible. Though this is Xehanort we're talking about, he clearly doesn't care ruining as many lives as necessary to achieve his own goals.
Whatever, Saïx had to keep his stupid facade in case the norts prevailed, to have a chance at discovering Subject X's whereabouts.
That, or he's not that good and didn't gave a **** about Kairi. KH2 supports this.
Truth be told, inconsistent writing. Nothing new.
 

SweetYetSalty

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I'm on the side of Saix just didn't care about Kairi. He likely got Roxas a body just to butter Lea up. Who knows if he had any involvement with Xion, his real victim. To be fair he doesn't stop Xemnas from trying to stab Lea either at the KG so who really knows. They didn't really do the double agent thing all that well with Saix when you confront him to fight, because even after Roxas and Xion are back he attacks as if to kill them...like why did you help them if you are now trying to kill them? Is this a suicide thing like with what Xion did in Days? Hopefully ReMind will clear all this up and show how Saix has been helping. I can't wait to play as RAX and clobber Saix, just a few more weeks and the moon will be stained with the blood of revenge or justice, however way you see it, lol.
 

OneDandelion

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You fight Saix again after that scene takes place implying that he still believed the Organization would win for whatever reason. His character's motivations really haven't been expanded upon much at all. I also sort of question how much Nobodies can feel in comparison to their whole counterparts. I don't know if I'd necessarily call him brainwashed either, but he has dedicated his life to the organization for a number of years before this moment, its really not surprising to me that he didn't try to stop Xemnas.

That being said every scene within the maze felt rushed and poorly executed in my opinion. When I originally played through it my first thought was that the maze was meant to split up the protagonists and that we were meant to fight organization members playing as aqua, ven, mickey, axel, riku, kairi, and sora. This is supported by the fact that we actually do get to play as aqua and Riku earlier in the game, but for only 2 very short battles that could/should have been otherwise reduced to cutscenes. Instead the game has us go through and fight everyone with only Sora - which is not only ridiculous to believe Sora is that strong to assist everyone and make it in time but many of the cutscenes feel misplaced because when you beat an enemy the fights stops, cutscene is shown, then you continue fighting their partner. It is very weirdly put together in my opinion.

It looks like the DLC may also support this theory. But this is all to say that I would take the events of what happened in the maze with a grain of salt, I believe theres a good chance time constraints made Nomura cut and organize many of the scenes in a less than ideal way.
 
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SweetYetSalty

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You fight Saix again after that scene takes place implying that he still believed the Organization would win for whatever reason. His character's motivations really haven't been expanded upon much at all. I also sort of question how much Nobodies can feel in comparison to their whole counterparts. I don't know if I'd necessarily call him brainwashed either, but he has dedicated his life to the organization for a number of years before this moment, it really surprising to me that he didn't try to stop Xemnas.

That being said every scene within the maze felt rushed and poorly executed in my opinion. When I originally played through it my first thought was that the maze was meant to split up the protagonists and that we were meant to fight organization members playing as aqua, ven, mickey, axel, riku, kairi, and sora. This is supported by the fact that we actually do get to play as aqua and Riku earlier in the game, but for only 2 very short battles that could/should have been otherwise reduced to cutscenes. Instead the gaorme has us go through and fight everyone with only Sora - which is not only ridiculous to believe Sora is that strong to assist everyone and make it in time but many of the cutscenes feel misplaced because when you beat an enemy the fights stops, cutscene is shown, then you continue fighting their partner. It is very weirdly put together in my opinion.

It looks like the DLC may also support this theory. But this is all to say that I would take the events of what happened in the maze with a grain of salt, I believe theres a good chance time constraints made Nomura cut and organize many of the scenes in a less than ideal way.
I don't buy the "Saix is brainwashed" excuse, the man was powered by the moon and jealousy. The jealousy shines down!

As for Sora fighting all the battles, storyline wise it makes no sense but gameplay wise I found the excuse solid enough. They want you to fight these guys with all the abilities you've gained through the game, and I can't fault that reason. You can't customize Riku and Aqua in their fights, and all their shortcuts were different then the ones I had for playing as Sora. Aqua in particular I found a nightmare in Critical Mode in her fight against Vanitas where she only has one Hi-Potion and one Ether which was not enough for me in Critical Mode. If the characters were more customizable and you got more play time with them then without a doubt they should all have been playable for these final fights. Thankfully ReMind seems to be correcting that with at least 4 playable characters so far. I hope they are customizable.
 

OneDandelion

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I don't buy the "Saix is brainwashed" excuse, the man was powered by the moon and jealousy. The jealousy shines down!

As for Sora fighting all the battles, storyline wise it makes no sense but gameplay wise I found the excuse solid enough. They want you to fight these guys with all the abilities you've gained through the game, and I can't fault that reason. You can't customize Riku and Aqua in their fights, and all their shortcuts were different then the ones I had for playing as Sora. Aqua in particular I found a nightmare in Critical Mode in her fight against Vanitas where she only has one Hi-Potion and one Ether which was not enough for me in Critical Mode. If the characters were more customizable and you got more play time with them then without a doubt they should all have been playable for these final fights. Thankfully ReMind seems to be correcting that with at least 4 playable characters so far. I hope they are customizable.
So this was the other reason I think my theory is true, because the game is perfect for splitting up and letting you play as multiple characters. Instead you play as Sora the entire game in Disney worlds that don't really add anything to the story line.

Basically, my thought is the original concept for the game was meant to be more like birth by sleep. Perhaps aquas standalone game fragmentary passage was even originally part of KH3 but was removed when the plans changed. I mean honestly, Riku and mickey had their own storyline, Kairi and Axel have their own storyline, and Aqua had hers. If you think about Sora's story of going through the disney worlds is possibly the least interesting of the three 🤔 but thats where we're at lol. I'm convinced disney ruins everything.

For what the game is in its current state I agree that the way they handled it was probably the best for the gameplay. Switching to different characters at the very end of the game would have felt just as out of place if not more.
 

darknessofheart

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I always thought Saix was battling some split personality with Xehanort's heart. Even as he arranged for redemption, he still had Xehanort's influence. By the time of the final battle, the influence was too strong and his hands were tied.
 

AdrianXXII

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My best guess is that he wanted to maintain his cover in case of the worse case scenario so that there'd still be a spy in the mids. That said he was in Berserker Mode which I believe would most likely make him less capable of rational thoughts?

I'm on the side of Saix just didn't care about Kairi. He likely got Roxas a body just to butter Lea up. Who knows if he had any involvement with Xion, his real victim. To be fair he doesn't stop Xemnas from trying to stab Lea either at the KG so who really knows. They didn't really do the double agent thing all that well with Saix when you confront him to fight, because even after Roxas and Xion are back he attacks as if to kill them...like why did you help them if you are now trying to kill them? Is this a suicide thing like with what Xion did in Days? Hopefully ReMind will clear all this up and show how Saix has been helping. I can't wait to play as RAX and clobber Saix, just a few more weeks and the moon will be stained with the blood of revenge or justice, however way you see it, lol.
I could see Saix wanting to die as a Nobody as a form of atonement. But, yeah he has a long road of redemption ahead of him.

That being said every scene within the maze felt rushed and poorly executed in my opinion. When I originally played through it my first thought was that the maze was meant to split up the protagonists and that we were meant to fight organization members playing as aqua, ven, mickey, axel, riku, kairi, and sora. This is supported by the fact that we actually do get to play as aqua and Riku earlier in the game, but for only 2 very short battles that could/should have been otherwise reduced to cutscenes. Instead the game has us go through and fight everyone with only Sora - which is not only ridiculous to believe Sora is that strong to assist everyone and make it in time but many of the cutscenes feel misplaced because when you beat an enemy the fights stops, cutscene is shown, then you continue fighting their partner. It is very weirdly put together in my opinion.

Honestly that would have made the most sense to me. Having the villains group up like that while offering fun fights, really made their final moments feel off. I feel like it'd work better, if that's how we initially clash with them, but they'd retreat further into the maze to then be fought in solo fights.

I'd have also appreciated the option to fight as each of the Guardians or at least have a cutscene of them clashing and finishing them off, if making the game play for each of the characters was too much work and hassle for the allotted time.

Alternatively they could have even had the characters be separated in groups Riku & Mickey, Aqua & Ven and the last group being Sora, Axel and Kairi.

Basically, my thought is the original concept for the game was meant to be more like birth by sleep. Perhaps aquas standalone game fragmentary passage was even originally part of KH3 but was removed when the plans changed. I mean honestly, Riku and mickey had their own storyline, Kairi and Axel have their own storyline, and Aqua had hers. If you think about Sora's story of going through the disney worlds is possibly the least interesting of the three 🤔 but thats where we're at lol.
Yeah, I agree there would have been enough story for there to be various Segments to explore the different characters and their storylines. I'd have loved it, if the intervals were actual short episodes that gave us control over the characters in them.

However I remember early on Nomura sadly already made it clear that Sora would be the main character and it wouldn't be split up like BBS and DDD. So I guess at most they were thinking of letting us play as Aqua or Riku in a few more segments at the graveyard like we now will get to in Re:Mind.
 

Zettaflare

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Now that I think about it. Saix still remaining with Xehanort after secretly helping the heroes makes no sense. Why not just change sides right then and there? It's not like he was the only one sabotaging the old man behind his back.


I like Saix as an antagonist but his redemption arc was pretty sloppy, lol
 

Twilight Lumiair

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Now that I think about it. Saix still remaining with Xehanort after secretly helping the heroes makes no sense. Why not just change sides right then and there? It's not like he was the only one sabotaging the old man behind his back.


I like Saix as an antagonist but his redemption arc was pretty sloppy, lol
This^

It really is just a matter of sloppy writing at the end of the day, and I've always had my issues with the way Siax was handled in the game since it was released (and even moreso after we received the Ultimania). Now his redemption arc isn't completely awful, I actually enjoy several elements of it, but if they were going to have Siax be this (frankly unnecessary) double agent, then we really shouldn't need to be guessing about his reasoning for such huge decisions within the story. It should've been made amply clear by the end.. and it wasn't.

The game and Ultimania give us a decent picture of Siax's motivations (which is to atone and "do right by Axel and Roxas"), but by the time the final battle rolls around, why didn't he just switch sides along with Xion and ambush Xemnas? Perhaps then Xemnas could kill or forcibly control him for his betrayal, and make the reveal of Siax's intentions carry some actual weight and emotion. And that's another thing: We never get a proper reveal of Siax's motivations in the entire game. We're left to make limited assumptions based on context clues and read the answers from external material, which robs us of that emotional impact (literally every positive thing the character does in his redemption happens completely off screen.. that's not how good arcs work, lol). And ultimately, I have to wonder, why? There's no reason to keep all his traitorous actions such a secret from the player. It's not like they made some sort of twist reveal out of it, so there was really nothing to gain. It's honestly just... cheap. Which is sad, because I actually like the general concept, but it was just so poorly executed I can't really appreciate it as much.
 

OneDandelion

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Now that I think about it. Saix still remaining with Xehanort after secretly helping the heroes makes no sense. Why not just change sides right then and there? It's not like he was the only one sabotaging the old man behind his back.

I mean I'm no expert, but his eyes were glowing during that fight. I don't know what it means, but it probably means something.
 

SweetYetSalty

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While we're at it why didn't Saix tell Axel about the replica body for Roxas? He doesn't even hint at it, instead telling him to accept that he's gone forever. The more I watch the KH3 cutscenes the more this kinda bugs me. Xehanort clearly isn't monitoring these guys, so if he has enough time to randomly talk about Subject X why not mention his secret plan when away from the Seekers? Not like they were watching that clock tower scene. Yeah Saix's double agent thing really is sloppily written.
 

Twilight Lumiair

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While we're at it why didn't Saix tell Axel about the replica body for Roxas? He doesn't even hint at it, instead telling him to accept that he's gone forever. The more I watch the KH3 cutscenes the more this kinda bugs me. Xehanort clearly isn't monitoring these guys, so if he has enough time to randomly talk about Subject X why not mention his secret plan when away from the Seekers? Not like they were watching that clock tower scene. Yeah Saix's double agent thing really is sloppily written.
Oh wooooow, I didn't even notice that. Lmao

Siax literally has Vexen make a replica body for Roxas (and likely Xion as well), has Demyx deliver the body Ienzo, and then immediately after that's finished, he tells Axel that Roxas is never coming back, lol.

In fairness to the Clock Tower scene though, Siax likely said that to counter Lea telling him, earlier in that very conversation, to just accept that Subject X was gone forever (like he already did back in 358, after befriending Roxas and Xion) and that they failed to find her in the end. But after Siax retorts by saying he should just accept that Roxas is gone, suddenly Lea is singing a completely different tune. Now he's saying that he's gonna "drag everyone back home", including Subject X. So the idea is that Isa was playing his classic psychological warfare with Lea, and managed to renew Lea's faith in finding their old pal without him realising it. This is why Isa is so satisfied when he eventually leaves. It's low-key one of my only favorite moments in the game, but yeah. In the context of the greater story, the diologue does come off rather silly XD
 

Recon

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“Okay, man, look. Real talk? Backstabbing those guys would be stupid.” - Demyx

Saix wanted to atone, but “his hands were tied.”
 

Hirokey123

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Vexen does perhaps imply that Xehanort might be able to exert control over any of his members "he is one of the chosen so he can't disobey". Which makes sense if Vanitas was able to paralyze Sora just because Ven's heart was inside him, and Ansem-Riku did the same to Sora using Kairi's heart in conjunction with the hearts of the other princesses....it's really not a stretch to believe that by accepting part of Xehanort's heart that he can just exert his influence over them if he so chooses. Of course I think it's more than that, a heart in someone isn't just like a person possessing another person.

A heart is memories, emotions, and connections the experiences that define us and shape us into who we are. When Xehanort puts a piece of his heart into people he's putting his emotions, his memories, his connections and experiences into them. As a result anyone who is half Xehanort at least partly shares Xehanort's desires. Xehanort's possession isn't really much of a possession it's more like...an ability to sway people to his side through force. You've heard of the old saying "winning over the hearts and minds of the people" which is where a person with significant enough charisma can sway a person into thinking like them or acting on their behalf by use of words/speeches/examples/etc... When Xehanort puts a piece of his heart into someone he's really just sharing his ideals, his beliefs, his feelings with them but instead of willingly agreeing with them they just sort of instinctively do now because his ideals, beliefs, and feelings are now mixed in with their's. Sora achieves a similar effect on people but his is always effect is always consensual and he becomes a part of their hearts metaphorically rather than literally...okay in some cases literally.

Which means Xehanort's possession is less him hopping into a body and taking it over, but it's more like he's creating a new person. His experiences meshes into the host's and since the experiences are what define a person they internally have to reconcile themselves into something that's not quite them or Xehanort but a unification of the two. With Riku as an example we saw how a perfect unification made the two virtually indistinct as Riku-Ansem, until the Xehanort part of him wanted to do something so in opposition of what Riku wanted in regards to Kairi and the two of them had such distinct feelings over the loss of Sora...that they literally couldn't reconcile. The two went from an almost perfectly meshed union into two very distinct conflicting sides, the conflict split them spitting out Riku's heart from his body as result. Even after Ansem's destruction he remained a permanent part of Riku, and the two openly viewed themselves as two halves of the same person where in Ansem embodied Riku's dark side and in reverse Riku effectively embodied Xehanort's light side. Creating a constant clash were eventually Riku consumed that part of himself, reconciling and making himself whole, and thus in turn freeing him from the shadow of Ansem.

So now looking at that I think it makes Saix's actions more clear. Part of him is Isa the former friend of Lea who wants to reunite with his best friend and make amends for his jealousy by bringing back Lea's lost friends, and even recognizes that his jealousy was irrational and based on hurt feelings he had tried to pretend didn't exist. But the other part of him is Xehanort the man who wants the war, who has shown time and time again to be vindictive and spiteful to even those he considers friends, who killed his best friend over their differences. The Saix we know is neither Isa nor Xehanort but a union of the two and like Riku it appears Isa meshed better with Xehanort, perhaps the jealousy and hurt towards lost friends created a common anchor that made it easier to draw on Isa's darker impulses. Which leaves us with a conflicted man, one who wants to make amends to his friend but also very much wants to beat his face in and Saix ultimately reconcile these two parts by helping restore Lea's friends while also psychologically torturing him and fighting in the war. Meanwhile someone like Vexen the only real common ground for Xehanort's personality to mesh would be his ego and scientific curiosity, so he happily rejoin the org and produce replicas for Xehanort because it would satisfy both those things but would let him work towards his real desire which was to bring back lost people in order to make amends.

Another good example of this is Dark Aqua who is "Aqua under Xehanort's influence". She is very clearly still Aqua but Xehanort's darkness had meshed into her, drawing out those dark feelings she keeps suppressed. Abandonment, anger at friend, loneliness, the sense of a friend holding you back from greatness, etc... these are all dark feelings Xehanort shares and would create a good anchor for her darkness to mesh with his. In a twist of irony Aqua may actually mesh better with Xehanort than Terra does, which is why Aqua shows no real resistance to what is going on because it's all stuff she wants to do and feels just being magnified by having twice as much of it now. While Terra all he really had was dark deep anger for Xehanort to latch onto so even when Xehanort joined with Terra the two didn't mesh much, Terra remained an almost wholly distinct person fighting Xehanort at virtually every turn. In a way it's almost like Aqua is basically female adult Riku while Terra was adult Sora, the similarities between the opposite were based more in circumstance/role than personality. Which is why Terra and Sora have this problem of wearing their hearts on their sleeves, rushing in, a desire to be the hero, being a tad gullible, and having a lot of anger that bursts forth as an overwhelming dark power. Meanwhile Aqua and Riku both have the problem of keeping everything bottled up, being a bit socially awkward and mistrusting, trying to be the role model and carry the world on their shoulders, and just in general wear themselves down to nothing.

So yeah I think the handling of Saix made a lot of sense and the answer to the question of "why didn't he help stop Xemnas" boils down to simply that part of Saix didn't want to, the negative spiteful part that Xehanort's essence was magnifying prevents him from truly turning on Xehanort. But he was still enough of Isa that he could be self aware, recognize his mistakes, and try to make amends in a way that also didn't conflict with that other part of himself. But that's just my interpretation of the whole thing really.
 

Twilight Lumiair

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So now looking at that I think it makes Saix's actions more clear. Part of him is Isa the former friend of Lea who wants to reunite with his best friend and make amends for his jealousy by bringing back Lea's lost friends, and even recognizes that his jealousy was irrational and based on hurt feelings he had tried to pretend didn't exist. But the other part of him is Xehanort the man who wants the war, who has shown time and time again to be vindictive and spiteful to even those he considers friends, who killed his best friend over their differences. The Saix we know is neither Isa nor Xehanort but a union of the two and like Riku it appears Isa meshed better with Xehanort, perhaps the jealousy and hurt towards lost friends created a common anchor that made it easier to draw on Isa's darker impulses. Which leaves us with a conflicted man, one who wants to make amends to his friend but also very much wants to beat his face in and Saix ultimately reconcile these two parts by helping restore Lea's friends while also psychologically torturing him and fighting in the war. Meanwhile someone like Vexen the only real common ground for Xehanort's personality to mesh would be his ego and scientific curiosity, so he happily rejoin the org and produce replicas for Xehanort because it would satisfy both those things but would let him work towards his real desire which was to bring back lost people in order to make amends.
Heh, I love this because in essence fans now have to construct an explanation for why Siax spent the entire game trying to bring back Roxas and Xion, and yet after they finally rise from the ashes, he suddenly wants to murder them with no fucking remorse, for no fucking reason. A true, undeniable contradiction indeed. Lol, KH3 everybody.

That said, I do think this is probably the most sound conclusion to come to, even if we'll never really know the answer (assuming one exist).
 
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