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Would kingdom hearts 3 been much better if Final Fantasy 7 remake wasn't announced or even in development?



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Ballad of Caius

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KINGDOM HEARTS' writing has been under heavy scrutiny ever since KHII. The same arguments people are making with KHIII, are the same arguments people made with KH2.
 

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KINGDOM HEARTS' writing has been under heavy scrutiny ever since KHII. The same arguments people are making with KHIII, are the same arguments people made with KH2.

I'll say this for KH2, at least the priorities were in the right place. And if I remember correctly, it was actually Daisuke Watanabe and Kazushige(?) Nojima who actually wrote the scenario for KH2, and Oka helped. Now we've got a map designer and an artist writing this series XD
 

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That was because of then president Yoichi Wada and the debacles the company had with the Crystal Tools in-house development engine, troubles with FINAL FANTASY XIII and FFXIV.
Don't forget FFXV, as that game also not only had development troubles (when it was under Versus XIII) and changes on the DLC releases which resulted in most of them being cancelled thus making the Ardynn DLC as the last dlc, but also resulted in Tabata leaving Square Enix.
 

Elysium

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But everyone's opinion is valid.
It is. My hot take is that if reading opinions that don't align with yours perfectly--to a greater or lesser degree--drains you or puts you on edge, you might also need to think about taking a break and there's no shame in that either. I felt I was being incredibly polite in my post, so rudeness or aggressiveness can't be misconstrued as the problem here. Nobody in any fandom can force you to change what you think or feel about something just by posting a different opinion than you; if you are mentally exhausted by other people simply holding an opinion you don't agree with, you're giving them way too much power over you. That's a choice you are making for yourself. Hold yourself responsible for that instead of demanding others to change. Happiness comes by internal means, not external.

If that doesn’t work, there’s always the ability to block users. I used to not believe in blocking other people, until recent experiences on another forum taught me that it can help sometimes. Believe me, I won't be offended.

I'll say this for KH2, at least the priorities were in the right place. And if I remember correctly, it was actually Daisuke Watanabe and Kazushige(?) Nojima who actually wrote the scenario for KH2, and Oka helped. Now we've got a map designer and an artist writing this series XD
Yes, and KH2 still seemed to care about its main characters at least; the ending with Sora and Riku is incredibly powerful and feels like a natural conclusion to KH1/CoM plots, and Roxas and Namine also get a lot of attention. KH3 feels like the characters were hurried through finishing up past plot plots as quickly as possible in order to add setup for them to be used as a means to tell a story Nomura didn't get to tell elsewhere that doesn't even suit them. Riku in KH3 just feels weird. The fact that he and Aqua almost get nothing to do at all feels like the biggest sign that he didn't really care about the KH characters or story anymore.
 
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Twilight Lumiair

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I'll say this for KH2, at least the priorities were in the right place. And if I remember correctly, it was actually Daisuke Watanabe and Kazushige(?) Nojima who actually wrote the scenario for KH2, and Oka helped. Now we've got a map designer and an artist writing this series XD
Oh god, you're not serious are you? 😑

Then again... it would explain why the story felt so, for lack of a better term, vapid (as well as why certain characters felt really watered down, since character writing requires a deeper understanding of those characters). Or are you strictly referring to Re: Mind?
Yes, and KH2 still seemed to care about its main characters at least; the ending with Sora and Riku is incredibly powerful and feels like a natural conclusion to KH1/CoM plots, and Roxas and Namine also get a lot of attention. KH3 feels like the characters were hurried through finishing up past plot plots as quickly as possible in order to add setup for them to be used as a means to tell a story Nomura didn't get to tell elsewhere that doesn't even suit them. Riku in KH3 just feels weird. The fact that he and Aqua almost get nothing to do at all feels like the biggest sign that he didn't really care about the KH characters or story anymore.
All of this ^

I cannot stress enough just weirdly the story and, particularly the diologue, was written at several points in the game. You have Sora spend the first third of it looking for a way to bring back Roxas, and then when both he and Ienzo have the means to restore him, they don't contact eachother at all before the final battle? This, on top of the two sharing zero diologue, so all of Sora's feelings on the subject effectively held no pay off in and themselves. Roxas himself gets absolutely no diologue with his best friends, and exposits shit to Xemnas that he shouldn't even know. Riku and Mickey were both indebted to Aqua (one of them literally owing her their life), yet when they finally get the chance to rescue her, not only do they fail miserably at every stage of their story, they get sidelined so Sora, who admitted he didn't even remember Aqua, could be the one to save her? And it's made worse by the fact that Mickey and Riku were the ones having the most interpersonal diologue with her after the rescue, not Sora (further accentuating how out of place Sora was in the whole equation). Aqua somehow managed to accomplish nothing after being granted every opportunity, despite Riku explicitly emphasizing how "important" she was at the beginning of KH3 (before the characters went on to find the knowledge she could've given them on their own anyway). Some of Kairi's only good diologue in the game was about her wishing to help Namine and fighting alongside the others, yet she performs SO poorly that both her and Namine get killed (repeatedly)? The Black Box subplot didn't receive any development beyond the epilogue, despite it being advertised and framed as an important motivation of the main antagonist (and Maleficent didn't get anything to do as a result). The NPoH were barely explored, went completely unutilized, and we're almost, if not a complete non factor to the over arching plot of the game. The characters even handwaved how they came into existence.

Like... So many of the "pay-off's" in KH3 were bungled, to the point where it's hard for me to, in good faith, believe that Nomura really cared much about the story he'd already built up to this point. It's so obvious where his mind was with this title, and it wasn't on the story we just got. The mere existence of Yazora proves that.

Don't think Nomura not being involved with the FF7 Remake would've changed much, but it's an interesting thought experiment at least.
*Edited for Grammatical Errors*
 
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Elysium

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The Black Box subplot didn't receive any development beyond the epilogue, despite it being advertised and framed as an important motivation of the main antagonist (and Maleficent didn't get anything to do as a result).
I did really think the Black Box and datascape was going to be important in KH3 thanks to Coded and 3D, and that it was going to be the way they would make Maleficent relevant again. That was one of the things I was the most wrong about. And it still feels odd? It feels like it was being deliberately set up to go there in KH3?

Like... So many of the "pay-off's" in KH3 were bungled, to the point where it's hard for me to, in good faith, believe that Nomura really cared much about the story he'd already built up to this point. It's so obvious where his mind was with this title, and it wasn't on the story we just got. The mere existence of Yazora proves that.
I've always struggled to care about Yozora when the character is talked about and speculated over. And I think this is why. There was so much that needed to happen with KH3--this is the reason many people give for why many plots weren't resolved as well as they could have been, that there was just "so much"--and yet there was time to create this character that we neither know or care about who has no impact on KH3's story at all? And that's why I can't blame the FFVII Remake's existence. It's not that game's fault. These were simply Nomura's decisions for KH3 and they weren't because of a lack of time or that he was too busy; he found time to put in Yozora and setup the game after KH3 after all. He simply lost interest in the KH story and wanted rather to be working on the next one rather than a resolution to what he'd already created.
 

Sign

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I'll say this for KH2, at least the priorities were in the right place. And if I remember correctly, it was actually Daisuke Watanabe and Kazushige(?) Nojima who actually wrote the scenario for KH2, and Oka helped. Now we've got a map designer and an artist writing this series XD

Both Watanabe and Nojima were criticized for their contributions, although I think Watanabe a bit less? The Nojima Hate Club on this forum was pretty active back in the day.

I do think giving Oka and Nomura shit for their background is kind of in poor taste though.
 
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SuperSaiyanSora

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It is. My hot take is that if reading opinions that don't align with yours perfectly--to a greater or lesser degree--drains you or puts you on edge, you might also need to think about taking a break and there's no shame in that either. I felt I was being incredibly polite in my post, so rudeness or aggressiveness can't be misconstrued as the problem here. Nobody in any fandom can force you to change what you think or feel about something just by posting a different opinion than you; if you are mentally exhausted by other people simply holding an opinion you don't agree with, you're giving them way too much power over you. That's a choice you are making for yourself. Hold yourself responsible for that instead of demanding others to change. Happiness comes by internal means, not external.

If that doesn’t work, there’s always the ability to block users. I used to not believe in blocking other people, until recent experiences on another forum taught me that it can help sometimes. Believe me, I won't be offended.

Definitely wasn't thinking you were impolite. And of course, happiness is an internal thing. I took none of your post to heart, and I have no reason to block you. I just don't agree that Nomura doesn't care about the series, I think he still cares very deeply. I also think that if people may feel that way, maybe the series is heading in a direction that might not be their cup of tea anymore.

It's like listening to Eminem - you could say his first three albums are the only good ones he's dropped, or you can appreciate that while the heights might not be as great as it once was, there's still good music and entertainment in his albums. Same idea.

Anyway, we'll just agree to disagree.

Both Watanabe and Nojima were criticized for their contributions, although I think Watanabe a bit less? The Nojima Hate Club on this forum was pretty active back in the day.

I do think giving Oka and Nomura shit for their background is kind of in poor taste though.

People forget that Nomura was a character designer before he was a director... Funny thing too, Days also caught flack for its story back in the day as well. But when the HD Remixes came out and it was condensed into a movie, people ended up appreciating it more.

But as "bad" as the story has supposedly gotten, the fan base has only grown larger because of those games, and even have fan favorites inside of them as well. People called it a day after KH2, people called it a day after BBS, and people called it a day after DDD. KH3 is no different. Some will be here for the next bridge game and KH4, and some will get off the train here. It is what it is.

And for what it's worth, most people on social media actually love Nomura as a writer, they just felt KH3 had bad pacing (which I personally disagree with but ehh). Nomura has the craziest concepts and ideas, and I personally love them. Others may not, and that's cool. But most KH fans I've seen outside of forums, they like it. They know he isn't perfect and definitely can make questionable choices at times, but it wouldn't be Kingdom Hearts without Nomura.
 
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Both Watanabe and Nojima were criticized for their contributions, although I think Watanabe a bit less? The Nojima Hate Club on this forum was pretty active back in the day.

I do think giving Oka and Nomura shit for their background is kind of in poor taste though.
Oh no, I wasn't defending the writing, just pointing out it wasn't Nomura who wrote KH2. Although now we're on the topic I think those two definitely had a strong handle on character interactions.

As for my other comment it was really just a flippant thing, I didn't mean anything serious by it, I thought the XD would have helped convey that.
 

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I did really think the Black Box and datascape was going to be important in KH3 thanks to Coded and 3D, and that it was going to be the way they would make Maleficent relevant again. That was one of the things I was the most wrong about. And it still feels odd? It feels like it was being deliberately set up to go there in KH3?
Yeah, I can see why you'd think that. They were really pushing Maleficent's subplot hard during Re: Coded & DDD, so it only felt natural for her to have more of a presence in the next game. She's never particularly shied away from the spotlight when it concerns her, and there's always some sort of subplot where she's at odds with the protagonist (even if she isn't the main threat). So when Sora and Co. hardly even interact with her or Pete, on top of the two getting limited screentime and zero real developments, of course it's going to feel weird and somewhat jarring. Compared to KH 1 and 2, she's virtually a non entity in the third number title, and regardless of what, that feels strange and out of place.

I've always struggled to care about Yozora when the character is talked about and speculated over. And I think this is why. There was so much that needed to happen with KH3--this is the reason many people give for why many plots weren't resolved as well as they could have been, that there was just "so much"--and yet there was time to create this character that we neither know or care about who has no impact on KH3's story at all? And that's why I can't blame the FFVII Remake's existence. It's not that game's fault. These were simply Nomura's decisions for KH3 and they weren't because of a lack of time or that he was too busy; he found time to put in Yozora and setup the game after KH3 after all. He simply lost interest in the KH story and wanted rather to be working on the next one rather than a resolution to what he'd already created.
Those were my thoughts exactly. It's real, tangible evidence for where Nomura's priorities are, and what drew so much of his interest away from the past events of the series. He put all that effort into implementing ideas from Versus 13 into KH, when there was no reason to think the fans wanted him to. Thus naturally, it's easy to resent Yozora as a concept, because of what he represents.

And yes, I know KH is Nomura's series, and he can do whatever he wants with it (to a degree), but it comes off like he's more interested in satisfying his own creative wishes than giving the fans the pay off and catharsis we were waiting so, so many years for. Not to say he did so purposefully, or with ill intent, but he does have a history of being strangely... disconnected with the fans at times. Re: Mind is actually a perfect recent example of what I'm talking about. It's bassically a flashy attempt to address fan criticism (just how well remains to be seen), with content that many believe should've been in the game at launch, while at the same time adding more of Nomura's weird twist and turns. Hence why it feels like a mixed bag to some, because it doesn't feel fully committed to either direction (fan wants & expectations vs Nomura's own personal desires). I don't think this would necessarily be as much of an issue if he was more in-tune with the fanbase.

Then again, that always is the hardest balancing act for a director, isn't it?
As for my other comment it was really just a flippant thing, I didn't mean anything serious by it, I thought the XD would have helped convey that.
My bad, I think my response might've confused the tone of you're original post, lol. I didn't pick up that you meant it in a more sarcastic manor. I should've worded that less aggressively.
 
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Ballad of Caius

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I do think giving Oka and Nomura shit for their background is kind of in poor taste though.
Yeah, even the simplest of fellows can come up with awesome ideas.

I think Tetsuya Nomura started out as a billboard artist and then got his first job in Squaresoft as Monster Designer for FINAL FANTASY V (in my honest opinion, Nomura is the best Monster Designer the FF brand has had).

That aside, this artist pretty much came up with an intellectual property that is almost head-to-head with Square Enix's FF and Dragon Quest.

And like Oracle Spockanort has said: Nomura needs an editor. He has very interesting ideas, perhaps even stuff that hasn't been done in video gaming storytelling in general, but for KH? He needs an editor.
 

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Yeah, even the simplest of fellows can come up with awesome ideas.

I think Tetsuya Nomura started out as a billboard artist and then got his first job in Squaresoft as Monster Designer for FINAL FANTASY V (in my honest opinion, Nomura is the best Monster Designer the FF brand has had).

That aside, this artist pretty much came up with an intellectual property that is almost head-to-head with Square Enix's FF and Dragon Quest.

And like Oracle Spockanort has said: Nomura needs an editor. He has very interesting ideas, perhaps even stuff that hasn't been done in video gaming storytelling in general, but for KH? He needs an editor.

I didn't mean to come across as demeaning, nor was it a serious comment on quality. I'm a fan of Days and that was almost wholly Nomura's writing and I think Kanemaki helped on that. It was just a throw away line meant for giggles but it seems to have done the opposite of that, and I apologise.
 

SuperSaiyanSora

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Yeah, even the simplest of fellows can come up with awesome ideas.

I think Tetsuya Nomura started out as a billboard artist and then got his first job in Squaresoft as Monster Designer for FINAL FANTASY V (in my honest opinion, Nomura is the best Monster Designer the FF brand has had).

That aside, this artist pretty much came up with an intellectual property that is almost head-to-head with Square Enix's FF and Dragon Quest.

And like Oracle Spockanort has said: Nomura needs an editor. He has very interesting ideas, perhaps even stuff that hasn't been done in video gaming storytelling in general, but for KH? He needs an editor.

Not to mention, it sounds like a relatively good way to gain respect and trust in the company. If you're a character designer, that's a really big job, you're responsible for how these characters are. I think for FFVII, he was the one who had a hand in the story, particularly Aerith's journey and development. And in FFVIII, he wrote the character backstories and also was the battle visual director in charge of designing fight sequences. He started out as a debugger, and now he's essentially Square Enix's golden goose, along with Naoki Yoshida.

So I mean, it's not always about the job someone currently has, sometimes they're able to contribute way more than their job title entails. Cause if we only judged on their title thought they weren't capable of doing any more, we wouldn't have Kingdom Hearts. Matter fact, we wouldn't have a lot of the magical moments FF is known for if it wasn't for Nomura. The next legendary game producer in Square could be a debugger right now, honestly. Naoki Yamaguchi is actually the co-director of the FFVII Remake, his first directorial debut, and the guy started out as programmer in the FFXIII series. And who knows, he might be the next director in Square to look out for. I wouldn't be surprised if Tai Yasue gets to direct his own game sometime in the future as well.
 
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