Calling it! Skuld is the traitorous Foreteller. She has the same coloured eyes as Xehanort, her Chirithy is not beside her, and most importantly, Ephemera would have mentioned something about her if he was truly affiliated with Skuld.

And to further clarify, Nightmare Chirithy is Skuld's Chirithy.

thot dressin' like sora, lookin' like hinata

We barely knew Ephemera. I doubt he had time to go "Oh yeah there is this girl in my party named Skuld."

And as things have been presented, Keyblade wielders don't bring their Chirithy with them everywhere and the dark, now Nightmare Chirithy has always been associated with Ephemera.

i think skuld is a diety disgues as keybladewilder that know the future and told master f masters the told future to see if he changes it after her name is based off norse mthoghy

I would cry if the Nightmare Chirithy belonged to Ephemera. It would mean something happened to him and that the black coat figure he encountered before did something to him.

I don't think that makes much sense from how the scene is unfolding. Giving her name Skuld is probably a good or at least a neutral character.

At best she'll live up to her name as she is the one who will go with the Player to find Ephemera/explore the tower and play an important role in the Player's fate and future following whatever they find in the tower.

That doesn't sound too evil. Despite Skuld being new and mysterious, she is here to throw the audience off. Ephemera is the one we are supposed to be suspicious of (despite my wish to not be suspicious of).

not just the player fate but the whole series i believe she will be in kh 3 and maybe help sora in some way so history deosnt reapet itself

Wow, somehow cutesy humanoid Heartless that speak are extremely terrifying.

The story is getting so interesting.

These "Heartless" carry Recusant Sigils and the way the Nightmare Chirithy speaks "They're close by, you'll find out soon enough"(They, plural, if the translation is correct) hints towards the "players" of the Nightmare Chirithy, or rather, its masters being the true Seekers of Darkness and those "Heartless" also possibly being controlled by them.
Black coat guy might be one of them...

The way they demand "Hand over the Lux" is disturbingly close to how the prophecy speaks about Darkness swallowing the Light and how Heartless are always hungering to devour hearts.
The specifics are still unknown, but it is clear that it's starting and both Skuld's and Ephemera's role in this can still be considered suspicious.

So a new mysterious character, two foretellers battling themselves and new heartlessesque creatures that are corrupted other "players?"

Man this game keeps sounding better and better! Why isn't it overseas yet!? lol

The plot thickens.

A female character who has absolutely nothing to do with Kairi. Suspicious implications about Ephemera. Talking Heartless (?!). Talking silent protagonist (?!!). A Nightmare Chirithy with views on darkness identical to Xehanort's.

The more I learn, the more I want an English release. But really, just having the story is more than enough for me.

Why did Chirithy specify a difference in a power? "They aren't like you who fight using fragments of the foreteller's power, they use their own power" and goes on talking about accepting the darkness...

I wonder a direction I never thought of before, what if using the foreteller's power was actually to protect the wielders? By that I mean when people use their own power, let their own power grow, they gain a strength that belongs only to them. But when you draw to deeply on your own power that is inside your heart you can draw on the darkness in your heart by accident. That's what Anti-form in KH2 was all about Sora constantly use his drives to draw out the power existing within his own heart and sometimes by accident he draws out the power of darkness in his heart. Or Terra his drive for power made it so when he was doing battle with Aqua or on the verge of losing something and needed strength he subconsciously call the dark power deep within him to the surface.

So maybe the whole point is that by using the cards/medals the foretellers created for them the wielders would never be in danger, they'd draw their strength from a stable constant source where they weren't ever in threat of becoming corrupted. But then some wielders ended up forsaking that and started to draw on their own strength, maybe they were mislead by another into doing so, and as a result they tapped into their own darkness gaining great strength but much like Riku in KH1 they were reckless and let the power of darkness consume them turning them into heartless.

Feels good that my translation wasn't that far off.

The Nightmare Chirithy doesn't use a pronoun, it's left out due to context.

By the way, I think that the cross on the Black Costumes (frankly I prefer that to Garment) bearing a resemblance to the thorns on the Heartless emblem is more pertinent than the resemblance of a Recusant's Sigil. But it could be both.

So we got a cute new character[SERIOUSLY I WANNA CUDDLE HER], the Foretellers are already fighting each other, TALKING HEARTLESS, a Nightmare Chirithy that's taking pages from Xehanort, and something involving the end of the world.

The next story update better still be Daybreak Town because I want answers.

Hmm... that sounds entirely plausible: but I think that's too obvious. The reason as to why I made such a bold conclusion was that conflict suddenly ensued once Skuld entered into the plot. She just wonders in, and all of a sudden: two foretellers are battling against each other and heartless are speaking and demanding the Lux. Why has this coincidentally happened once she came into the picture?

Perhaps because Ephemera is pulling some strings?

I think Skuld would react differently if that had been her Chirithy.

hold on we dont know anything about skuld plus her name came from norse mythogy skuld is a norn of the future and said who live and dies in the battlefield

I feel like Skuld my secretly be the Master of Masters. I dunno... I just feel like a Valkyrie, who spirits people who die valiantly in battle to Valhalla (in Norse mythology, anyway), might also be someone who has eyes that can "gaze into the future". Or at least be someone with eyes that have seen a lot more than most have. Perhaps Chirithy is just exaggerating about how powerful the Grand Master is in the II.8 trailer.

Also, I know this is all Norse mythology, but I wonder... Do you think Nomura might try to bring some Christianity stuff into this all, too? If there are going to be three sisters (or at least a trio of three girls), he could possibly do something like the God, Jesus, Holy Spirit idea mixed in with all of this. IDK. It's just a thought.

Edit: I also think that the Player is a Xehanort vessel: the last one, probably. Perhaps the reason he/she never spoke before was just because he/she was an empty shell. But now- now Xehanort has capitalized on that fact, given the Player a piece of his heart, and that's why he/she's suddenly speaking.

Second Edit: Good theory, Hirokey123. I hadn't thought about that, and it seems like something that could be possible.

Thank you so much for the translation to this, btw, goldpanner! I was already interested in this before really knowing what was happening, but now that I know so much I feel like this is a dose of medicine I'd been missing greatly. You're too kind for putting this into all of our laps, and I can't thank you enough for it.

KINGDOM HEARTS... I missed new story content like this! We hadn't really gotten new information since DDD. And I know we've gotten a lot in Chi before this, but I feel like the story is only now starting to really take off and I'm excited.

Also... the girl is so Homura Akemi to me. That scowl... That uncaring attitude about rules... LOL.

Anyway, the way that the Nightmare Chirithy here was talking makes it sound like the Realm of Darkness and Realm of Light do coexist at this time period, but the Keyblade War will inevitably cause the Realm of Darkness to bleed into the Realm of Light (it probably is somewhat already here), thus tainting it forever.

And I'm just so surprised that Spirits can turn into Nightmares at all! Dang, was this a good story update. 0_0

lightupthesky maybe i mean i would why not nomura can bring christinty is some shape or form who know maybe kingdom hearts is heaven

Eh, Nomura's already delved into some Christian stuff before. For example, the design of the X-Blade strongly resembles the papal coat of arms...


which is often referred to as "the keys to the kingdom of heaven." The gold key represents power over the divine world (heaven) while the silver key is power over the temporal world. Keys to a kingdom, made of a cross between to opposites, hm? Now doesn't THAT sound familiar...

It wouldn't be the first time we've seen some form of Christianity in the series, either. Sora is pretty much a Jesus figure, with Xehanort being Satan-like, after all.

And just the whole light vs. darkness thing in general, really.

I also read somewhere that the X-Blade is supposed to represent the Keys to Heaven (kind of like what you just said above, about KH somewhat representing Heaven), or something like that, but I'm not a hundred percent sure on that one:)

Edit: BlackOsprey, you're psychic. You're the Master of Masters! You just answered my question about the X-Blade representing the Keys to Heaven, without even realizing I was going to ask about that. Dang, you're good. LOL.

The whole light vs dark thing has been a common theme since humans were able to tell stories. The concept's older than dirt and far more ancient than Christianity.

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but in addition to being representative of the "future" for the Norse trio of fates, Skuld also translates to "guilt."

As usual with Nomura's selection of character names, this one has potentially multiple layers of meaning.

She could be connected to the Book of Prophecies (it being the power of the "future") or the Heartless in chi... Or both.

There's plenty of parallels you can draw between Kingdom Hearts and various religions/mythology because it draws from some pretty universal concepts and motifs. For example, Kingdom Hearts itself can be seen as the equivalent of Heaven or a state of grace in Christianity, or a cross between Valhalla and Yggdrasil in Norse mythology. Likewise, the Keyblade War is the Kingdom Hearts equivalent of the Apocalypse or Ragnarok.

Hm, that seems a bit out there to me. Now, Ephemera being the final vessel, that's something I can get behind.

But Player? I mean, that'd require establishing a canon gender/appearance for a modular character, which is a bit sticky.
And sure, Player has trained under Hades and acquired a certain dark influence, but it would seem to me, especially if that Nightmare Chirithy does indeed belong to Ephemera (and also his encounter with the Mysterious Figure), he's the most likely candidate.Oh shit
It's happening.

I knew Guilt was gonna be important somehow

The darkness gave me future sight.
(It also helps that I spend at least 15 minutes every weekday stuck in a chapel, staring at a banner of the papal emblem and noticing things because I'm a bored nerd.)

Speaking of little things I've seen, after staring at the chapel's round stained-glass window (hey, there's the inspiration for the Stations of Awakening!) for who knows how long, I noticed something a bit neat: there's a Chi in there. Well, it's part of the chi-rho, the first two letter for the Greek word for "Christ." But! Still! Jesus is represented by Chi!

I mean, sure, light and darkness and the concept of the spirit/soul/heart are ancient and universal themes, but the X, the Greek letter that happens to look like it, and the things they represent? Not so much. X's. X's everywhere.

i think skuld is connected to hearts and the future in some way which we dont know yet

Oh, right. Jesus already made a cameo, I forgot. =w=

could the book of prphices be consder a book of relgion?

No. Predicting the future ≠ religion. Sure, a lot of religions have some prophecy and maybe some text about the end of the world, but you need a LOT more than that to have a book of religion.

There are certain parallels that could be made with the Unions and the Keyblade War.

Whereas the Abrahamic religions warred over the Holy Land, here the Unions war over the Light, the clash of similar-yet-opposed ideologies. The Foretellers, analogous to say the Pope or similar positions. The Master of Masters, who bestows the Foretellers with their titles and powers, who has a certain omniscience via "gazing into the future," could be in some respects a God figure.

This may be a stretch but Ephemera's relationship with Ava and subsequent fall into darkness (assuming that's what happened) could be thematically linked to Lucifer.

Obviously no 1:1 scenarios here, but similarities.

I came up with a theory a couple of months ago on the KH13 forums that the story of Chi could be inspired by the Zoroastrian creation story and that the Foretellers could be counterparts to the Zoroastrian archangels:

Basically, in the story, there is a God of Light (Ahura Mazda) and a God of Darkness (Angra Mainyu). The God of Darkness plans to destroy the light, so the God of Light creates 6 angels to protect his creations: Sky, Water, Earth, Plants, Animals, and Fire. The Foretellers' keyblades feature imagery that match each of these concepts.

The Leopardus keyblade resembles a bolt of lightning, Vulpeus looks like a tidal wave, Ursus has a rocky motif, Anguis features leaves and vines, and Unicornis resembles a bow and arrow. I believe that a 6th foreteller is based on Asha, the angel of fire, and if the rebirth theory is true (which after the recent story update is looking more and more likely), then it can be logically concluded that Lea is the reincarnation of the 6th apprentice/Foreteller.

Also, Ava is a name derived from the Zoroastrian word Aban, meaning waters; this fits the theory that Kairi is the reincarnation of Ava, and that Ava's keyblade has a sea motif.

Hmm. That's really interesting, actually! And something that I didn't know. It seems to be a good hint that Ava is, in fact, Kairi's original incarnation, definitely:)

(And even though I, personally, don't want the Rebirth theory to be true, if it means that Kairi's personality is actually like Ava's--and we'll get to see more of it if she develops more in future installments--I wouldn't mind that at all.)

...

@BlackOsprey Not to get too off topic here, but isn't the fact that X is the Greek letter for "Chi" also explain why Christmas is sometimes shortened to just X-mas? (I think I read that somewhere. And it would make sense.)

...

So, guys... what if Skuld is the person that Young Master Xehanort was asking Braig to get in the added scene in Re:Coded? Her name starts with an "S", doesn't it? And the scene was already talking about Chi stuff. (Note that I don't really think that this likely, but I just thought I'd throw it out there for fun. ^_^)

...

I also meant to say that I feel like KH gets darker all the time. LOL. This new stuff about the Heartless talking--and being the former Keyblade wielders who were fighting for Lux, and that still want it--makes me feel like when we learned that Xehanort was experimenting on people, confining them beneath the castle, and bringing in live specimens to sacrifice to them when they became Heartless, basically, and thus creating even more Heartless that way.

And this is a series published by Disney that's supposed to be okay for children to play. Ha!

actually there was no pronoun at all. i had to use the most neutral one possible.

everglow upload the video with tranlations
[video=youtube;2j1S4olvPrI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2j1S4olvPrI[/video]

no worries!! i was pretty excited to get such a big chunk of story too :)



:O i didn't know that...

I see, however wouldn't then be "You'll know soon enough" be sufficient if the Nightmare Chirithy didn't specify anyone?
Or maybe Nightmare Chirithy was remaining unspecific because its player isn't a "person" per se but the Darkness itself?

If I remember correctly it was stated that a Chirithy disappears when its player falls, however it is never specified if that is really an "end" so it could also be that the Chirithy in question is turned into a Nightmare just like people turn into Heartless when they lose their heart to Darkness.

The thorned cross on the Heartless emblem is a sigil too though, it represents a heart captive in Darkness/that is the "property" of Darkness, like chains holding it.
That's why Riku's symbol is the same as the "Heartless emblem" but without the cross. His heart has much Darkness, but isn't a prisoner/property of it.



So practically insinuating Ephemera might be the Satan/"ultimate evil" of the KH universe?

Something about that phrase just made me laugh more than it should've. I know that anything's possible, but somehow the idea of Ephemera being KH Satan is just hilarious for some reason. Diabolic dandelion-head...

You know that's really tripping balls xD

Pretty much ever since Ephemera disappeared, I've believed that he would wind up being tied to Xehanort somehow, if not outright being a part of the True Organization.

And within the past few months I've started to wonder if, perhaps, Ephemera is the Sixth Apprentice.
This would line up with his interest in the Foretellers and the Book of Prophecies, as well as his relationship with Ava.

So it could be that Ephemera is where this all started.

I feel as though the nightmare Chirithy is representing something similar to the Xehanortification process happening to Ephemera. We've seen the darker coloured Chirithy before and it's been hinted to be Ephemera's. Just as it took time for Xehanort's heart to grow in Braig the same is true for Ephemera. Players who reject the darkness or are not strong enough disappear and potentially become these new humanoid Heartless. But what would happen if one accepts the darkness fully? Their Chirithy, a representation of themselves, becomes "covered" in darkness just like them.

In short, Ephemera has a piece of someone's dark heart growing in him and the Chirithy displays the process (yellow eyes and pointy ears represent the process of becoming Xehanort in the present day). Although the process was successful Ephemera discovered a way to transcend the control of assumed person (Master of Masters/sixth apprentice) and become "unchained" from their grip, projecting himself into the dreams of Player & Skuld.

But that's just my two cents on the matter.

There's something to him turning into scattered dandelions. Afterall, all that fuzz that blows off is seeds - kind of harkens to Xehanort's heart seeds that he implants.

Well, don't forget that the dandelion-esque imagery is very similar to "heart-spreading" like Xehanort does as well.



Him being "tied" to Xehanort somehow is definitely possible and palpable, even more so since Ephemera himself also displays a huge amount of curiosity and penchant to try and "find the truth" behind things.

But of he would be the sixth then the Foretellers would recognize him wouldn't they? While Ava and him seem to be on remotely friendly terms she doesn't seem to treat him as an old acquaintance.

I agree with the notion that Ephemera might be the starting point and the "key" to the truth, yet I'm still unsure about his true allegiance and mindset.



Well, the Xehanortifciation process does have to do with Darkness in more than one way and Ephemera's Chirithy originally having darker fur could hint towards "partially" corruption or "half-Xehanort" while Nightmare Chirithy is the process being fully finished.
After all, Xehanort is an anagram for "another" so who(or what)ever is truly pulling the strings behind everything could very well be using this technique to use others as pawns to do their dirty work already during the time of Chi.
I would bet that it is the former, possibly original user of the Goatblade which now resides with our present day Xehanort. Maybe it is even from this one that Xehanort learned this ability as while it is said that Keyblade Masters can extract and move their own and other peoples' hearts, it is never stated that they actually have the ability to split their heart into multiple parts and send them elsewhere.

There's the old saying that "curiosity killed the cat" and therefore I can see Ephemera having this predicament simply because he's portrayed as such a curious lad and put his nose too deep into things, ending up forcibly falling to Darkness and being "used" by the actual force pulling the strings.
He has however enough willpower to still be able to contact people deeply connected to him via dreams and give them advice.
Him knowing about "the world being about to end" can also hint into this direction as he would know it from the force he's currently entangled with.

However, all this would not turn him into KH's version of Satan but more into a poor sap used by the true bad guys, not unlike Terra, Riku and possibly Isa.




Definitely, although while Xehanort uses this ability for malevolent purposes it isn't (yet) confirmed that this is the only way to use it.
If we look at Zack1403's theory maybe Ephemera is using this ability to partially escape the one who's controlling him right now, to keep parts of his heart away from the Darkness that engulfed his main essence.
It's even possible that both Skuld and Player actually hold a part of Ephemera's heart and that's why he can contact them via dreams.

Saw the gameplay about an hour ago, and the gif yesterday. A couple of my friends were speculating and we were talking about Ephemera's allegiance and the appearance of Skuld. We thought it was interesting that Skuld had amber eyes, but it made us think about the Seekers of Darkness. What if, since time-travel has already happened, Skuld or Ephemera end up being a darkness? It would make for an interesting story. It's just wild speculation. I was also pleased to see another original female character in the series. It's a shame KHx happens in the past though.

Well, there are other factors.

Ephemera managed to become "Unchained," and I have my suspicions that the Foretellers are also Unchained. I can't imagine that a normal Keyblade wielder would just happen to reach that state.

I think the relationship between the Foretellers and the Sixth may be complicated, hence Ava saying how she's the easiest to talk to among them.
I mean, even mentioning something like that implies that Ephemera has equal means or opportunity to communicate with all of the Foretellers, right? The rest of the players don't seem to have such a luxury. We can't even speak to our own Foreteller, let alone the others. We had to overstep our bounds and trespass into their territory in order to get a meaningful interaction with them.

That dialogue also suggests to me that Ephemera isn't a part of the group of wielders that Ava has been collecting (can't recall if that was confirmed or not), so his lack of canon Union is suspect.

Wasn't Lucifer supposed to be the most beautiful Angel or something though? Lol.

I am curious as to how all of this is going to play out.

I've uploaded the four new scenes with English subtitles (translations thanks to the lovely goldpanner of course<3)

Enjoy everyone! :)

[video=youtube;cvMOKz--U48]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvMOKz--U48[/video]

[video=youtube;qj0ChWZdEUI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj0ChWZdEUI[/video]

[video=youtube;0yvIFXmuseI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yvIFXmuseI[/video]

[video=youtube;R0zl5F4VTPU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0zl5F4VTPU[/video]

Interesting idea, although I'd say that so far we know too little about this "unchained" state to make a definite call on this, not to mention that it seems to be implied that Player would also be able to reach that state so it isn't a Foreteller/Apprentice only thing except if one wants to theorize that Player might actually be an unaccounted seventh one.

Possible, as there also has to be a reason why the sixth did get a new name, but no copy of the book like the other five.
It is implied that Ephemera spoke with the other Foretellers as well, yes, but they are shown to sometimes stroll through Daybreak Town and unlike most of the other wielders, Ephemera might simply be bold enough to directly approach the Foretellers when he sees them and tries to goad information out of them.

The group of wielders Ava is collecting was mentioned by other players I think, not by any of the Foretellers or Ephemera. Most people put Ephemera with that group possibly because it was said that this group collects wielders across all unions/who don't belong to any union, which is a criteria Ephemera fulfills.
And Ava's last words towards Ephemera when he runs off after their last conversation may also be seen as hints towards it.
If that group and Skuld's "party" of which Ephemera once was a member of is the same thing remains to be seen. Has there been any information of Skuld's union (or lack of it) be revealed?




He was, being a seraphim (the highest order of angels) and according to some sources/mythologies the only angel with twelve wings (Seraphim normally have six wings).
If I recall correctly Lucifer before his fall was actually a reasonably nice guy, it was his tremendous pride which eventually got in the way, hence why he's normally also the representative for "pride" of the seven cardinal sins.

I would wager that anyone can become Unchained, it's just a matter of knowing how. And if Player is becoming Unchained, it may be through Ephemera's influence.

If that group and Skuld's "party" of which Ephemera once was a member of is the same thing remains to be seen. Has there been any information of Skuld's union (or lack of it) be revealed?

Her Union is as-yet unconfirmed. But if she was in the same party as Ephemera, then her Union would depend on Player's, like his does. So for me, as Vulpeus, she would be Ursus.

There's a lot of mystery surrounding the characters of this game, even Player, so I feel like anything is possible at this point.
At times I can't even keep track of all the ideas that come to mind.

I bet we end up having to kill Ephemera.

It's worth considering as well that the player may also fit that criteria, as in Unchained X, we can switch Unions whenever we want.

And Ava's last words towards Ephemera when he runs off after their last conversation may also be seen as hints towards it. If that group and Skuld's "party" of which Ephemera once was a member of is the same thing remains to be seen. Has there been any information of Skuld's union (or lack of it) be revealed?

Expanding on Echo's post, here's a list of Ephemera's Unions (left) depending on the player (right):

Leopardus-->Vulpes
Unicornis-->Anguis
Vulpes-->Unicornis
Anguis-->Ursus
Ursus-->Leopardus

Though it's certainly possible that Ephemera could have just been bouncing between Unions the entire time 8D



makine no ;A;

Finally watched the video, and I was very impressed with it!

It astounds me how much Square is actually able to pull off with this graphical style. Haha.

Like, I for sure didn't think that Anguis and Ursus fight was going to be involved as it actually was, so major kudos to them:)

Also, "Night of Fate" playing in the background was just perfect to me.

And is anyone else getting the impression that Skuld maybe doesn't like Chirithy, because she kept backing him up--giving no shits about the Dream Eater at all--until he moved out of the way and she could sit by Player, or is that just me?

...

I'm so intrigued by these new talking Heartless, btw! Do you think that there's a chance that all Keyblade wielders who lose their hearts to the darkness could become like this?

I mean, Keyblade wielders are the only ones with the power to permanently defeat a Heartless and release they're hearts, so is it too out there to say that they themselves, because of that, could all become special Heartless?

So far the only wielders we've seen become Heartless are Sora and Xehanort.

And Sora... Well, he was never meant to be a wielder, and had too little darkness in his heart to truly become something substantial.

But Xehanort? Xehanort's Guardian reminds me of these Heartless a bit. Especially if the theory that Xehanort in the robe (until he got enough strength to get a body through possessing Riku) was actually just the Guardian is correct. That means that not only does it sort of resemble the new Heartless, but that it also could talk!

...

I feel like this series is maybe starting to get back to its routes with some scarier Heartless again (like how in the first game, they could actually pretend to be people--as that one appears to be Belle--that was seemingly dropped in later titles), and I couldn't be happier for it:)

...

But even with how interesting this all is... Does anyone else feel like it's a little excessive? If the people in Chi end up making up the current Keyblade War, that is.

Because didn't Nomura say in the KH1 Ultimania that there are other Keyblade wielders in other parts of the universe?

And furthermore, unlocking Kingdom Hearts... Isn't that supposed to open the door to all worlds, lead all the Keyblade wielders in the world to the Keyblade Graveyard, and have them battle for the light in Kingdom Hearts?

If so, I don't really get why bringing back the Chi characters is even needed (if that's even what's happening here).

It reminds me of how I think the time travel idea was unnecessary, when we already had Xehanort turning other people into him, and the dead Nobodies becoming complete again. Dragging versions of himself throughout time to the future just seems pointless to me, when he could use these other means to have vessels, but whatever, I guess.

...

Also, watch Ephemera be Xehanort and Eraqus' Master. I'm calling it now. (Or if not literally, he ends up possessing their actual Master, takes an interest in Xehanort, maybe, and that's how Xehanort ends up getting that ancient Keyblade.)

If Ephemera can actively influence something like that I'd wager he must be really powerful as it is apparently no easy feat.

Are "party" and "union" really interchangeable or could it also be a party of people who belong to no union at all or to different unions?

There is indeed much ambiguity here, hence why I am also highly careful to designate neither Ephemera, Skuld nor any of the Foretellers as either a "good guy" or a "villain" yet as there are too many unknowns still despite some of them being more suspicious than others.
Even the Black Coat guy does not necessarily need to be a villain.
The whole atmosphere of the game is one of uncertainty which mirrors probably the feelings of most of the in-game characters as well.
We know there is something terrible going on and we know there is a villain or a villainous force, but as of yet this force doesn't have a clear representative yet.


Possibly having to add another candidate to Sora's expanding "to save"-list of suffering people which escalate in suffering time each instance a new "group" is added?

Roxas, Naminé and Xion => suffering for roughly a year.
Terra, Aqua and Ventus => suffering for more than a decade.
Ephemera + possible others => suffering for several centuries???



Ah, I see, that's certainly an interesting point as it ties "Player" definitely closer to both Skuld and Ephemera.

Of course, lol, Ephemera is apparently a bold little shit who's also not afraid to directly approach the Foretellers and probe them for information, so bouncing around between unions would definitely fit.

Well, so far Nomura's track record for happy endings with characters not named Sora hasn't been really high and in this particular case we already know the whole thing will end in a near-apocalypse at the end. <__<

I just love how this game has the appearance of a bright, happy, and perfectly harmless fairy tale, but the story itself is fraught with unease, (the good kind of) confusion, and really grim and at times downright horrifying implications about pretty much everything we've come across.

... Okay, I guess that's also pretty much every KH game ever, but Chi has made the contrast more stark than ever. That, and we all know that this inevitable ends with Armageddon Lite and a barren mass grave studded with thousands of dead warriors' weapons.

Uh oh
Given what's happened, could this chart be a map to which Foreteller is suspicious of who? Ursus definitely seemed to be the aggressor.
I think becoming Unchained is just some sort of process, and maybe it could even be done on accident, but if you knew how, it would be easy to make someone Unchained.
Maybe.

In the gameplay, at least, you have to be in the same Union to be in the same party.

You know, I just thought of something:

Going off the theory that this is all taking place in the Realm of Sleep, how are there people from the eventual Keyblade War in Daybreak Town to bein with?

I know that maybe some of these people went off to The Keyblade Graveyard to fight, and the worlds themselves are filling in what happened with illusions of them, but could it be that most of these people are just these illusions, then?

Either that, or a lot of them didn't end up fighting there after all? But that we be odd to me, since this game is supposed to be about the Keyblade War.

Unless Daybreak Town eventually becomes The Keyblade Graveyard, like some people have theorized.

But The Keyblade Graveyard isn't a sleeping world. So if that's the case, how could any of this be possible, then? Daybreak Town's not like Traverse Town, where that world is an anomaly and can exist in multiple places at once.

Unless Daybreak Town/The Keyblade Graveyard is like that, and we just don't know it yet?

...I'm confused.

(If this story even is taking place in the Realm of Sleep, that is.)

Remember that Daybreak Town/The Keyblade Graveyard are originally from a time before the worlds were split, so anything might have happened to the regions' nature once turned into a "world" of their own as a result of the War.

It absolutely wouldn't surprise me if the Keyblade Graveyard is a world in the Realm Between.

I'm not sure if I believe that Daybreak Town is the Keyblade Graveyard, which is something I've thought previously.
Something just doesn't line up there, for me.
Like how the Book of Prophecies refers to "that place," which to me suggests a separation of location from Daybreak Town.

But I do believe it's a safe bet to assume that Daybreak Town as we're witnessing it is a Sleeping World. Unless Nomura wants to change how Dream Eaters work, that's the only option.
I imagine it hasn't been strictly confirmed yet because that's going to be a revelation for Player and the others. That might even be the "truth of this world" that Nightmare Chirithy mentions, or the "truth" that Ephemera is reaching by becoming Unchained.

I find this Skuld person interesting. On one hand, the name means "future" or "debt." On the other, it can be short for "skulduggery" which means trickery. I still can't decide which theory I'm going for.

Nice catch. I can't believe that I didn't notice that before! o_o

That's a good point that I didn't think of. Thanks for clearing that up for me, The_Echo!

...

I thought I'd try and put what union Ephemera's in, depending on what one the player is in, to the Rebirth theory to see if we can maybe glean something from it all:

So, if you're in Ventus' union, then Ephemera is in Kairi's union (interesting; going off of the Ven and Kairi from the series, you could say that you're both in unions of light here. But seeing as how Leopardus wants to protect the darkness, that might not actually be the case at all. Very curious).

If you're in Riku's union, then Ephemera is in Aqua's union (this is also interesting, because people have often compared those two's similar traits to each other).

If you're in Kairi's union, then Ephemera is in Riku's union (Kairi's best friend).

If you're in Aqua's union, then Ephemera is in Terra's union (someone who's supposed to be best friends with Aqua, but they've been seen to have a rocky relationship before; no pun intended).

And if you're in Terra's union, then Ephemera is in Ventus' union (Terra's best friend, and someone who--at least during the events of BbS--he seems to get on better with than Aqua).

What do you guys think about this? Do you think it could be important, or is it just randomly selected unions that mean nothing?

Let's just say this IS happening in the sleeping worlds, then is it possible that unchained actually means to not be apart of the sleeping world anymore?

And how Skuld said that the world would end in an instant and suddenly, makes it feel more like the world will wake up one day but it would mean anyone who resided in that world would either disappear or appear with the real world...but then it also means that if someone was born from the sleeping world, then they would technically stop existing because they are a part of that world.

or something like that.

OH.

We're the third character in the trinity.

Sora Riku Kairi.
Roxas Axel Xion.
Terra Ventus Aqua.
Mickey Donald Goofy.
[Player] Ephemera Skuld.

What if "unchained" equates to "awakening"? I think the term "chained" could refer to a chain of dreams, i mean, people have different dreams but maybe one dream leads to another, or it could be that people share the same dream but from different points of view.
I don't think Ephemera is going to be the bad guy, but maybe a puppet. Remember what Ava said, they needed people like him, as they would rebuild the world thanks to the light in their hearts. Maybe Ephemera is awakening the dreamers and asking them go to the real world to protect it.

About that tower with prohibited access: could the Master of Masters perhaps be inside that tower? We know he "mysteriously" disappeared. But what if the traitor (assuming there is even one) was the one that kidnapped him/her and locked him inside that tower? Perhaps he was the only one capable of changing the future for better and the traitor locked him inside in order to fulfill whatever dark desires that person has.

This... is interesting!! I never thought of it that way

Does this mean they get a trio name--

Dream Trio

Chained Trio...

On another note, this is getting really good! Like really good. In retrospect this is probably Nomura's plan all along. Draw us in with cutesy style and cutesy starts and then give us a grim reminder that," hey, the Keyblade War is right around the corner, so, uh, have some mind crushing feels!" The revelation of speaking Heartless is...definitely something that I didn't expect outside of what, Ansem? I wonder if that's a thing for Keybearers with significant Darkness--

Then again it might just be weird. Terrifying. Ugh, just imagining how raspy they sound give me the shivers. ;n;

Never even thought of that. Good catch there!

We'll call them the Corpse Trio

:eek:

So, if the Rebirth theory is correct, I just realized that this update gave some people their wish about getting to see Terra and Aqua really fight each other. LOL.

(Because I know some people seemed annoyed that in BbS--despite hints otherwise, and all the build up--we never really saw Terra and Aqua get into a brawl. The only time they did get into a fight to the death was because Xehanort was possessing Terra, and not because it was Terra himself... Unless you count their Mark of Mastery exam, I guess. Or when Ven has a flashback of them training/battling each other in the Olympus Coliseum, but those were just cutscenes that you didn't get to play. And once again, they weren't really at odds with each other there: just being instructed to face off against each other by Master Eraqus.)

@Ballad of Caius: So you're basically saying that the Master of Masters in some sort of Naminé in Chain of Memories situation?:)

@makine: And don't forget Sora, Donald, and Goofy, and Sora, Riku Replica, and Naminé in the fake memories from CoM;) (But in all seriousness, that's a really good theory that you have, and I think you're right about Ephemera, Skuld, and Player being the new trio.)

I also think I'm starting to ship Ephemera with Ava, and Player and Skuld together (I kid). Mostly... Skuld being the first person to get Player to talk does somewhat get my shipper heart going, though. LOL. Somewhat.

MY HEART PLEASE NO don't say such things

Yeah. Something like that. But I wonder how can someone imprison a powerful person like the Master of Masters? Perhaps he was turning very old and began to lose his or her powers?

-----

Are people seriously doubting Aqua's ability to wipe the floor with any other character in the franchise?

I'm still freaked out about the talking Heartless.

I might've at some point, but after realizing just how much she'd leveled up after fighting all those Heartless during that brief segment in the RoD, I guess not so much anymore. Constantly fighting for your life against swarms of ravenous darkness beasts in the KH version of hell would probably keep you in decent physical shape...

Nightmare Chirithy practically confirmed that the heartless we've been fighting were once keyblade wielders, right?
Going in-game for a bit, it's inevitable that when you're in a party, members stop playing entirely, rendering them inactive and unable to collect light/fend themselves off from darkness.

So imagine looking for one of your party members and running into a heartless...

I think in this case they would have used Heartless we've already encountered in the cutscene to drive this point home. The Emblems are probably not the players themselves but something different. Lux is the connection, I wonder how you would be able to gather it in the first place without defeating Heartless.

But I think this new Heartless confirmed [chi]/Unchained doesn't take place in the sleeping worlds. Since the Chirithy are the only Dream Eaters there, I think they are dreamt by the Master of Masters, who should be sleeping somewhere.

But in DDD, when the dream overlapped reality, the dream took priority so Heartless still didn't appear.

Besides, do we really know that they're Heartless?
Something about them being called Black Costumes (in kanji, no less) has me... skeptical. It may even be a group name.
And a named group of Heartless seems fishy.

Yeah, I see your point but what could they be instead? I mean they spot all the Heartless features and have fallen into darkness. The mission text that appears before you defeat them says "Defeat the three Mysterious Black Costumes and aim for the Lux!" (ルクスを狙う 黒装束の３人組をやっつけよう!). So if they are indeed part of a dark faction (which seems very likely) the name should refer to these lower-rank creatures but probably not to the organization itself.

Why are we saying that they're Heartless? Like members have said, they're called Black Costumes and they don't seem to have a Heartless symbol, only what seems to be a crimson Recusant Sigil. Other than that, Pureblood Heartless don't have colored appearances. They're just dark with bright yellow eyes.

By the way, this game definitely has to take place in the Sleeping Worlds. There are Emblem Heartless everywhere in chi/Unchained, and assuming this game takes place in the distant past before the Keyblade War, then it's impossible for Emblem Heartless to have existed back then.

Granted, it wouldn't be the first retcon in the series, but I doubt this is a retcon, but more like an indirect hint about where chi/unchained really take place.

That's just wrong: Shadow Stalker/Dark Thorn, Dark Hide and several of new Pureblood Heartless in chi/Unchained are more colorful than the rest. Maybe the Black Costumes have an emblem on their back but still they look Heartless through and through.


You contradict yourself, Heartless shouldn't be able to enter the Sleeping Worlds, that's why Dream Eaters exist in the first place.

Remember how the Heartless inside the journal in Re:coded were actually just data recreations of the Heartless described in the journal?

Early in the game, our Foreteller suspects that someone is drawing the Heartless into Daybreak Town.
The Foretellers use the Book of Prophecies to bring impossible worlds from the future to Daybreak Town.
Isn't it also suspected in the Back Cover trailer that the "traitor" may possess the Lost Page?

I have no doubts that this is all connected.

What if Player is Sora? (Note that I don't want that to be the case, and I don't think it likely, but it's a theory I just came up with and I thought I'd share.)

Sometime Sora went into the Realm of Sleep again after DDD (though I doubt it would be when he went to thank the Dream Eaters that this would happen, but after that), or maybe even some time during KHIII.

The only thing, is that Sora did this after having released Roxas, Ventus, and Xion from himself. And Xemans turns out to be right:

All the personalities that had helped to make Sora up... He's now lost without them. And that's why he can no longer find himself (and somewhat lost his memory?), can't keep up his true form, or even speak?

(To add to this idea, maybe Sora hasn't released Xion from himself yet, but just the other two. And she's part of the reason he can be viewed differently--even as a girl--as we all know what Xion could do.)

But Sora, being Sora, he makes friends with these new people, and becomes invested in what's going on around him--thinking it as reality, even--and it's not until he bonds with others, that he's able to speak again and start to have his heart "wake up", so to speak.

Here is something that occurred to me Nightmare Chirithy called the power we use "fragments of the foreteller's power" alluding to how we draw our power from our cards/medals. But you know I find that interesting because that power is from the tome of prophecy not the book isn't it? Even if the foretellers made the cards technically that power comes from the book right? But maybe this answers something I've been wondering for awhile now....

What if those cards/medals actually contain memories from specific people, memories hold power and the power they hold belongs to the one the memories come from. That's how Sora's power could be transferred from person to person via his memories and how stripping his memories stripped him of his powers. If that's the case then who could have memories of things like Ice Titan, Sora, Eraqus, Xion, Namine, etc.... if you don't see where I'm going with this I bring you back the to line the "fragments of the Foreteller's power". That's right what I'm thinking is maybe all those cards are specifically memories that belong to the foretellers. It's their memories copied/produced into a card using the power of the book to do so. But there is another interesting thing were told the book lets us borrow the power of the future, that's what the cards/medals were described as initially which is why future people are on them. So then thinking about it, that would mean the foretellers have memories of the future.

Well I've come up with a slightly new variation of the foreteller identity theory as I'm forever skeptical of them being reincarnations. A form of TAVRK sure but just looking at the story and the writing reincarnation seems just like something Nomura wouldn't do, at least for this saga anyway.

Remember Xion? A girl with Sora's power who looked like Kairi all because Sora's memories got inside and changed her? My thought is the foretellers are beings like Xion. That is they are beings blank or otherwise who were infused with memories/contents from the book of prophecies to protect the book. See the physical book would still exist but its actual power would be held within the foretellers preventing people from corrupting/stealing/misusing it. The memories they were infused with belonged to either Terra, Aqua, Ventus, Riku, and Kairi respectively causing them to take on their forms and gain their powers, along with the power of the actual book of prophecies to summon its contents.

Its quite possible your theory to be true, since I do remember a part where these Foretellers were given new names by the Master of Masters. Though, we don't know there names before having their current ones.

That black

Chirithy talks exactly like Xeahnorth, while our

Chirithy spaeaks more like Eraqus.

While I applaud this theory on giving a more varied base towards the "identities" of the Foretellers and being in line with KH's own established mythos and lore, there's one thing that isn't explained and would require further investigation.
Xion having Sora's power and looking like Kairi due to Sora's memories was only possible to begin with due to Naminé breaking Sora's main chain of memories and the loose memories being absorbed into Xion through Roxas, Sora's Nobody.
Terra, Aqua, Ventus, Riku and Kairi never had their main chain of memories broken like that so there are no loose memories for the eventual Foretellers to absorb in the first place, not to mention that the catalyst to absorb the memories from (Roxas) is also missing.
Out of these five, only Ventus could have a possible catalyst with Vanitas and that's also iffy terrain.

---

Independent from all theories though, I'm still hoping that the Foretellers have nothing at all to do with TAV and Riku/Kairi.
When I hear statments like "we see Aqua and Terra fighting" in regards to Anguis and Ursus duking it out I get the urge to facepalm. They are NOT Aqua and Terra!

I don't think Hirokey123 meant in that direction. I thought it was going more with the fact that if this is in the past, those memories shouldn't exist in the first place but since the book had the power to bring worlds into that current time, then it's not that far-fetched to think that the master of masters could have created key people from the book of prophecies with some or none of their memories but similar to how nobodies react when they are born. If they have memories of someone yet act differently from them or they have no memories but act similar to how they react to their real selves.

Although, I'm adding my own theories into this now.

It quite possible the personalities of TAVRK was put into these Fortellers with or without Memories and act as any other Nobody would. And the best way to see how they react, would be to look at how the members of Organization 13 were acting before Sora stopped Xemnas. They either acted similar or different from their human selves.

Also, its just a theory that can be broken down into nothing once the next theory comes up.

Amen.

I've been pretty quiet on the Rebirth theory but I might as well go on the record as 100% against.
I personally find no evidence to support the idea outside of matching color schemes, which is like... come on.

The only present-day character I expect to have a relation to the cast of χ[chi] is Xehanort, which is more or less confirmed anyway.

glad I'm not the only one :P

Huh, I'm not the only one who feels the same too.

Perhaps I should be more clear.... Remember the journal? Sora was the catalyst of that book even though Jiminy was the one who wrote it ultimately all the memories for the most part within the journal belonged to Sora, it was a record of his events. This was a key as to why Data Sora's Heartless ultimately had so much power over it. In addition the journal held memories of people who were part of Sora which is why Data Roxas is a thing that exists even though he never was even slightly something hand written into the journal. I believe Mickey said it best "the journal isn't just a record it's a collection of all we felt, it's what's in our hearts". Ultimately none of these memories in the journal actually belonged to the journal but instead they belonged to the people and places that journal was written about.

So then comes book of prophecies which was compared to the journal by the game itself. It's highly plausible that the contents of the book are actually just a collection of memories that belonged to key people. In fact that's heavily implied given that all the worlds summoned are places we've been and all the cards/medals are characters we've seen with some you know official art thrown into the mix. My thought is that the book of prophecies is essentially a record of the lives of the guardians of light, a record of what was inside their hearts. Then its contents were transferred into those 5 followers transforming them into copies of TAVRK.

So Ursus had the contents of Terra's heart that was recorded into the journal transferred into him. Letting him take Terra's form and gain Terra's immense power which is also silently reflected in his keyblade, it looks kind of like Terra's and yet it's distinctly its own thing. So Ursus would look like Terra, sound like Terra, have Terra's powers, have Terra's memories, but ultimately would still be his own person.

Also the Master of Master is a grand keyblade master who can see the future I think it's plausible enough that he could divide the contents of the book among his apprentices.

^^^ I REALLY like where your theory is going!! :D Are you trying to suggest that, maybe, the Foretellers are actually replicas a la Xion Master Xehanort made in order to fill in the ranks of his Xehanorganization...?! :O

Just a thought (could or could not be related to the posts before xD): If we take that famous theory as fact or no, even easier, if we have really "elements" from the future here in Chi, the place of all of this happening is the Realm of Sleep.

Why? - Because this can't be the true events that caused the Keyblade War.

If the grand master really could see and use the future, then he should know that any action taken with the help of this sight of the future will lead to that "future/outcome" exactly.
TAV, SoKaRi etc. wouldnt face the future we know where they have to get strong and chosen by masters and blades in the initial real world Chi.

Conclusion: We use elements from the future to cause the future here in Chi. We have a loop, and looping events belong to the Realm of Sleep.

I would got to Japan and throw my computer through square-enix's window.

No, I think Hirokey means that the original Foretellers (before they got a new name) where infused by memories of TVARK to make them (better?) guardians of light in the same vein as Xehanort turns Nobodies like Xigbar or Saix into Xehanort copies.

I think this is actually a pretty clever idea that fits the theme and for all we know could be 100% right. This makes much more sense than the Rebirth theory.

Maybe the lost page was removed because it covered this information?


But maybe that's exactly what the Master of Masters was going for. We don't know any of his motives so far, only that the Chirithy are extensions of his will.
Looping elements don't necessarily only belong to the Sleeping Worlds. Xehanort used his time traveling powers to pull his younger self in the future and when he returned to the past he lost these memories but retained the desire to travel to other worlds which leads him onto the path we know.

I think both are plausible they could have been beings very much like replicas or they could just be regular apprentices who were infused with TAVRK's memories. Ultimately though this isn't too important a detail because the end result is the same you get a version of TAVRK with all their real power that is still their own person.

Honestly I stand by that the Master of Masters is the true villain behind this. What do we know about the past in hindsight? That the keyblade was not created to protect light rather it was intentionally created as an attempt to seize the X-blade for themselves. The fact is the X-blade nor Kingdom Hearts is present or mentioned at all in Chi yet which is extremely suspicious. There is also the matter on how the X-blade's existence summons Kingdom Hearts but we're told time and time again that during this era Kingdom Hearts was "unseen" which begs the question how could it be unseen if the X-blade's mere coming into existence forces it to appear?

My thought is this the Master of Masters saw into the future and saw both the X-blade and Kingdom Hearts, he saw how to forge it, and so he attempted to copy what he saw but ended up creating a keyblade instead. Knowing this he formed a plan, the details I'm not so sure on, but the whole point is ultimately he intentionally is setting the pieces up for the keyblade war in an attempt to forge the true X-blade. My thought is the real traitor was never a forteller or an apprentice it was the master of masters and he is the one stripped it of the pages that would reveal his plans. During this time of Chi the wielders think they are using their keyblades to fight for the protection of light but as we've seen somewhere along the way it stopped being about that, it became just a competition as Skuld pointed out. And we the real players having played the other games know the truth the people of chi have yet to figure out yet. That their keyblades are tools created not to defend but instead to conquer, created as both an attempt and a method at obtaining Kingdom Hearts.

O-oh no...
I thought it was strange that the Master of Masters created a Dream Eater, as a supposed real person from a past and world without them.

But now, I'm wondering if Xehanort has taken the Master of Masters' place in the dream recreation of these events

If the Master of Master's true plan is to forge the X-blade means at least two things for me:
1. Master Xehanort's Keyblade is truly his, meaning the sixth apprentice, which it probably was given to, is some sort of fail safe to continue the plan by imbuing his will on him.
2. If light and darkness have to clash that means besides Lux some sort of darkness is probably gathered too (Guilt maybe?) and the Black Costume group is also indirectly lead by the Master of Masters.

He could still be a good or least some sort "destiny has to happen" kind of guy, maybe his plans just backfired badly.

Maybe he believes the only way to protect Kingdom Hearts is to keep the χ-blade safe? Which would require forging it, to make sure someone with ill intentions doesn't.

And then he may have taken the role of the darkness because he knew it was a dangerous path, or because having his apprentices work for light was easier?

I would assume that there are quite some people around who think this way, mainly because technically spoken half of the cast already consists already of clones even if it is just by appearance.
So getting yet another set with the Foretellers might be the last straw...



I see, well, Jiminy's journal however chronicles memories and events of the past, so that is pretty logical as is the comparison with the Book of Prophecies when looking at all the cards and medals. Yet those cards and medals show hundreds of characters and people, not only TAV and Riku/Kairi, which begs the question why only these five and why would their memories be planted into these Foretellers in the first place? The Guardians of Light-issue is also iffy since there are supposed to be seven, not only five. In the end it doesn't fully add up.

If Ursus would have the full contents of Terra's heart him being an own person would be questionable.
Beings like Roxas, Naminé, Xion or Vanitas are specifically different and may be considered their own persons because they do NOT have all the memories of the people they originated from.
Data-Sora developed into something different from Sora because he created new memories the "original" Sora doesn't have (the whole journey in Re: Coded) and because he doesn't have all the contents/memories of the original Sora's heart, only those that where stored in Jiminy's journal (which deals mostly with KH 1).

It is certainly better in line with the overall KH lore and mythos though than the "Rebirth"-theory so that's definitely a plus.



No matter how you spin it though it results in just yet another set of clones appearancewise, something I'd rather avoid.
Seriously, this would be the sixth version of Sora/Ventus (Sora, Ventus, Roxas, Vanitas, Data-Sora + Leopardus), the fourth of Riku (Riku, Riku Replica, Data-Riku + Unicornis) and the fourth of Kairi (Kairi, Naminé, Xion + Vulpeus).
For Aqua and Terra it would be the first clone but still unnecessary causing more confusion among the audience.
BBS and Coded were already border-case anyways and while I personally was still ok with it, many other are/were already sick of the constant cloning blues back then.

If this is really going to happen yet again and the Foretellers are nothing but dumb copies of already existing characters, I'd start a petition to rename KH officially into "Game of Clones" and will refer to it as such!

Both Ephemera and Skuld are so far characters with a largely original design, so I'll cross fingers that this applies to all new characters from the Chi era.
You can draw parallels and connections without having characters literally being the same.



I'm pretty certain that anyone who willingly wants to cause an apocalypse cannot be called "good" in any feasible manner without questioning sanity.
This whole "Destiny"-crap is nothing but a thinly veiled excuse to justify heinous actions and spreading chaos to begin with.

she doesnt have blue eyes so that maight be sighn

That might just mean that she isn't part of the main destiny thing, since it seems those who have blue eyes or similar are a part of some destiny or it could be Nohmura's was of saying "This here is an Original Character" or something.

(pretty sure I spelled his name wrong)

I mean like, have you noticed that the player isn't allowed to change their eye color but everything else okay?

Given the events in the cut-scenes...I'll just say this, I am in before players start getting recruited to a union of darkness which would act as a 6th union. Perhaps causing 3-way battles instead of 2-way battles.

I don't really understand how it is. Reincarnation is actually a very natural expansion of the lore. I thought it was a logical conclusion to three aspects of the series:

1. The Keyblade War is the "Apocalypse" of the series. Everything is destroyed and then rebuilt anew.
2. There is no traditional concept of "death" in the series. Just "sleep." People are swallowed by the darkness and there is generally a method for them to return. For instance, when one's Heartless and Nobody are destroyed, that person returns to life. In that respect, they're "reborn," albeit into the same life they had prior to their "death."
3. Destiny, destiny, destiny. The nature of events in this series is cyclical. "Relived again and again... like déjà vu."

If we take all of that to be true, what the hell happened to all of the people in the universe prior to the first Keyblade War? There's no "death," right? So in some fashion, these people still exist. But this isn't like when one person is consumed by darkness, or even when a world is consumed by darkness; we're talking about almost the entire universe being consumed by darkness, and then being restored/restructured by a handful of people into the worlds we now know.

Obviously, a heart can return from the darkness. So here's one for you: Assuming a heart from the pre-Keyblade War universe is brought back from the darkness in a post-Keyblade War universe, what would happen? Well, we can't know for sure, but at the very least the person can't just reassume their previous life as they knew it. As I said, the entire universe was restructured into individual worlds. That person is going to lead a different life. I imagine their memories would have gotten a good cleansing too. We know darkness can wipe memories over time. Given the magnitude of the universe ending in darkness, I don't think it's a leap to say that the darkness could do more permanent damage. But still, deep down, they're fundamentally the same person, and likely to do the same things. Destiny and all that, right?

And that's it, really. We've already got a variation of rebirth in the series (Nobodies = "a new you") and the theme of a metaphorical rebirth has been done before (reverse/rebirth). Plus, despite the fact that we still don't have a concrete definition for "birth by sleep," it's not hard to figure out. If "sleep" in the series is the equivalent to death, as I mentioned, then "birth by sleep" = "birth by death" AKA "rebirth." I think it's plenty at home in this series.

If by "in line" with the lore, you mean it's more or less just using a concept that we've already been introduced to, then sure. I don't personally find that to be more palatable myself. I remember the days we were speculating that Unversed were replicas, and back then that theory was certainly "in line" with the lore.

In this case, even if it's a concept we've seen before, I don't think it fits well thematically.
ShardOfTruth suggested that the Foretellers may have been infused with the memories of our heroes in order to make them better GoL. This is basically identity theft, though, and it's the modus operandi of the bad guys, not the good guys. By placing his heart in others, Xehanort seeks to impose his will on them, and to destroy their individuality. Someone like Sora, by comparison, believes that everyone deserves to be their own person. I can't picture the good guys using such a subversive technique. It undermines their values.




I came up with the rebirth theory in part as a compromise on this very issue. I know it's hard to picture now, but when I came up with it, no one was pointing out the physical similarities between the Foretellers and our heroes (which, in hindsight, is obvious). That's literally what prompted me to make the theory--"Why do they look so similar?"

I had two options: To dismiss it as some kind of red herring or just run with it. And I couldn't, in good conscience, dismiss it. I think most people at some level want to dismiss it because "clones" have been rampant in this series, but that's exactly why I couldn't dismiss it. This series, whether we like it or not, has had "clones" in it, or some variation thereof, in virtually every installment since 2004. I don't know what Nomura's obsession is with that theme, but that's just how it is. And it isn't going to be any different in KH3. We're technically getting at least 13 of them.

It's true that in one instance appearance was used as a red herring of sorts--for Xion. Given that she literally IS a clone, not the greatest example to counter with lol.
So that's how I approached it. And using the concepts I discussed above, I came up with rebirth theory. I call it a compromise because, under the theory, the Foretellers are not really "clones" per se, they're just... well, characters we already know. If the theory is right, to what degree they would look like the heroes as we know them is pretty much a crapshoot.

I'll go on the record as saying that I would love for the Foretellers to be completely original characters, but I apparently don't have the same faith in the series that you have at this point.

According to legend, not all was destroyed. The World was rebuilt, the way it is now, with the Light from the hearts of children, which was too bright to be swallowed by the darkness.

2. There is no traditional concept of "death" in the series. Just "sleep." People are swallowed by the darkness and there is generally a method for them to return. For instance, when one's Heartless and Nobody are destroyed, that person returns to life. In that respect, they're "reborn," albeit into the same life they had prior to their "death."

Tsk, tsk.

That's why I said "almost the entire universe" a few sentences later. Apologies for taking a few liberties with the key strokes? Didn't think someone would be grasping that hard--does not invalidate anything I said.



So how many tsks do I get?

You caught me skimming, I admit it.

So how many tsks do I get?

Presented with conflicting information of equal validity, I would say what's true is up to the beholder.
Though, if I'm honest, I'd like to see the Japanese for that quote 'cause I remember it raising a pretty high eyebrow when I read that interview.

Backing up a bit, you posit that people may have been reborn after the Keyblade War, not necessarily as different people, but the same people with different memories (to make the transition better).
My question is, isn't that a bit too convenient? Does everyone lose those memories? Even the children who weren't swallowed up?

I would think the more natural process would be that the Keyblade War was simply lost to the ages, eventually reduced to nothing more than a legend.

If the Foretellers were reborn into the main cast, is this to imply that the cast we know are the first generations after the Keyblade War? Or do people keep reincarnating?

And are the events in this series cyclical? The quote you pull is in reference to how often Sora visits Traverse Town (one of the adventures mentioned not even being Sora proper), but looking at the larger picture of the series chronology, while there are consistent themes and parallels, events aren't really replaying themselves.
The events of χ[chi] are noticeably unique, and one might think that this is where we would see the cycle reinforced the most.

Does a cyclical nature in time not also speak ill to the future of the franchise? I don't think anyone wants another Zelda situation.
That's not really an in-universe thing, but y'know.

I suppose my biggest issue with the theory is that it's a lot of supposition and conjecture. Outside of vague similarities in appearance, there isn't much in the way of hard evidence to support it. So I don't feel a reason to put much stake in it.

They're not of equal validity. That statement by Tetsuya Nomura was made 4-5 years after KH2.
It's been a pretty well-established fact for some time now, and I'm surprised that anyone is arguing against it at this point. Especially with a suggestion that it was a translation error (it's not).

Regardless of whether or not there was room for a traditional concept of death in the series at some earlier point in time, there has never been, nor will there ever be, any focus on it. It's a non-factor.
If you're seriously willing to entertain that notion, are you going to suggest that the people who existed before the Keyblade War all literally died? Like, not "sleep" death, but actual death? Because that's the road you're going to have to ultimately go down in order to refute my point.



What's convenient about it? I'm not saying they are born with different memories, I'm saying their old memories were wiped. Blank slate. I find it odd that memory loss as a plot device is being alleged as too convenient in this series.
Tampering with the chain of memories can make people lose memories. Darkness can make people lose their memories. Time travel can make people lose their memories.
Out of curiosity, did you find it convenient that Young Xehanort, simply be returning to his original time, loses his memories?

So what about the idea that the World ending in darkness makes it too convenient that people lost their memories?



The former. Let me be clear: I am not suggesting that people just continuously die and are reborn. This is a one-time reincarnation. It's history repeating itself. Just as the Foretellers would (presumably) have been born within a couple decades before the first Keyblade War, they would be reborn as our heroes within a couple decades before the second Keyblade War.

Think of it like the Big Bounce. The universe begins (Big Bang), and ends (Big Crunch), and begins again (Big Bang), and ends again (Big Crunch). A cycle where the starting conditions of the universe are relatively the same such that things play out relatively the same, albeit with some notable differences. I am not, to preempt the accusation, saying that things are playing out exactly the same with all the same people in the same places, times, etc. This does not boil down to questions like, "IF HISTORY IS REPEATING ITSELF, WHERE IS SKULD???" As I said, I think there are notable differences, but the broad strokes are the same and the key players are, well, playing their parts.

As for why it's a bit different this time as opposed to the last, this goes into my question of "What happened to all those people?". Although I do think people were revived, I don't think everyone was. "So many are still waiting for their new beginning... their birth by sleep."



The counterpart to the events of χ would likely be set in KH3. First Keyblade War compared to the Second Keyblade War. So there isn't really much to compare it to at this point, and that's even assuming the χ is, in fact, the exact historical events leading into the First Keyblade War. It may be that this is, for example, a retelling of those events in the Sleeping Worlds (in which case there would be some variations), so let's wait to see how that plays out. But if your issue is that there are so many keyblade wielders in the First Keyblade War, and apparently a select few in the second (from what we've seen so far), there's a couple points on that:

- As I said, it's not an exact reoccurrence of history. I don't think every keyblade wielder from the First Keyblade War has been reborn in time for the second.
- Even then, there's reason to believe we may get more than just a handful of keyblade wielders in the Second Keyblade War: "This X-blade will open a door--one that leads to all worlds! Then, Keyblade-bearing warriors will flock here from each and every one of them, to battle for the light within Kingdom Hearts! And just like the legend says, the Keyblade War will begin!"

The reason why I included that Xehanort quote is to show that, even within the universe as it currently stands and on a smaller scale, things continuously repeat themselves, and I don't think that's an accident.

Additionally, the main villain's entire motivation is born out of circular cause and consequence.

He travelled to the past to ensure that his young self would grow up into the evil bastard he became, and when his young self grew up, he travelled to the past to... yeah. You get it.

If you had asked people about time travel in this series prior to KH3D, I think the resounding consensus would have been "diddly no." Don't underestimate the lows lol.

I think it's all about perspective. The Rebirth theory and Hirokey's "variation" have many similarities. But while the Rebirth theory says the parallels introduced in [chi]'s story are actually repetitions because time is a circle, Hirokey says the parallels are truly parallels because (mostly) the same methods are used. Hirokey's explanation has the advantage that not everything has to fit while there are problems with the Rebirth theory that can't be easily ignored (the height of the Foretellers and SRKTVA is often brought up for example), that's why I think it serves as a better explanation at the moment.

I also agree that the Rebirth concept is not that alien in the Kingdom Hearts universe, heck even [chi] itself uses it for ultimizing its cards, so I won't out rule it yet.

And yes, if the Master of Masters really takes the role of Xehanort in [chi] he is probably not a good guy like Sora but without further details I don't think any arguments regarding his motives hold much water. Personally I hope he just isn't the true villian behind Xehanort's every move.

As for the horde of clones: If you graps the Dark Seeker Saga as a story that is mostly about Xehanort, Sora, Riku and Kairi and see their "clones" as continuations and variations of their characters to illustrate different points Nomura wants to make, I don't think it it's really that bad. It certainly isn't perfect but personally I don't think that an original characters make a better story is true at all.

Weirdly, I think this might be the first time I've seen people argue that the two statements about death in KH were mutually exclusive and that one trumps the other. I always thought general consensus was that "true death" as described in Ansem's Report is possible, but that most people (and all the kinds of "death" we've seen so far in the series, except maybe Repliku) fell under the sleep thing that Nomura talks about. If true death isn't possible anymore then how can one accept that KH3 will be the end of Xehanort for good, after all? So I thought fandom had mostly believed both to be true, and not one to be truer than the other. So this is interesting.

As for the Nomura interview in question, as the translator herself has frequently said, over and over, since the translation came out, we need to keep in mind that when Nomura is talking about the concept of death he is speaking to a Japanese audience who generally have a different cultural understanding of it than we might have, and that is key in interpreting his response as well and shouldn't be forgotten.

I also hasten to add that we HAVE seen characters die permanent death, and we've seen it referred to in conversation amongst the original characters. Xehanort's body snatching was because of fear of death before his dream was reached, afterall. He tells Vanitas, in no uncertain terms, to end Aqua's life. Riku and Repliku talk, explicitly, about death and what happens to a heart when someone dies. No conclusion is ever reached save that Repliku's heart would do what Riku's would.

Culturally, Riku also believes in some sort of hell or afterlife as he mentions it when he first materializes in the Dark Realm in Final mix.

Pretty simple actually, they all perished for good, maybe they reside in some Void Beyond, Fields of Elysium or whatever you want to call it, but it would certainly be a place where no return from is possible as otherwise no threat could ever be truly vanquished.

While it is true that a heart can return from the Darkness, there are several conditions to fulfill in order for it to happen and it always requires the heart to be somehow connected to another heart that currently "lives". Not to mention the brought back heart never turns into a different person.
Maleficent for example was only able to re-manifest because the three fairies remembered her.
The whole clutter from the first Keyblade War though should be long forgotten by now and have no more connections to living hearts that could bring them back so it should not be possible to just simply "return" a heart from the "pre-Keyblade War universe".
Except maybe if there really IS something about that black Goatblade (and possibly all Keyblades too), who knows, maybe the Keyblades that are "currently" in use in the current universe actually all have a heart from a person of the "pre-Keyblade War universe" inside them?
This would of course also throw up the question what the Keyblades used by the people in x[chi] are made of.



And that's exactly where the main problem (as far as I can see and have observed) comes from as Riku, Kairi and TAV would no longer be themselves but just cheap ripoffs/shadows of the colossal failures that are the "Foretellers".


Except that "Birth by Sleep" explicitly refers to the people pictured in Blank Points returning to the world, that was the whole issue where Nomura brought these statements up in the BBS Ultimania, as the exact same individuals they already are, not some ripoff of some ancient weirdo. Aqua would return as Aqua, Ansem the Wise as Ansem the Wise and so on, that's essentially talking about revival/resurrection (except that TAV, Roxas & co are not really dead anyways), which is only possible due to their direct connection with Sora (Ansem the Wise states so in DDD as well), not reincarnation, those are two different concepts.



Uh, but by that you imply that the Foretellers and whoever did this whole thing are the "good guys" while that is not made clear in the slightest.
In fact in X[chi] we don't know who the "good guys" are at all and who are the "bad guys" if this distinction can even be made at all.
So far in X[chi] there is no one where you can 100% say "that's a good guy".




Maybe I'm just a blockhead then as I don't really see the "compromise" since from where I stand it not only cheapens TAV + Riku & Kairi, it also does not make the Foretellers "new" characters at all since unlike Roxas or Xion, they wouldn't even be hybrids/variations with other influences to set them apart.

That's certainly part of it as well and I may very well be part of that group as well.
The main problem with Nomura is that he doesn't understand that parallels do not equate to "the same" and not needing always an intricate "deep" connection forged with a hammer.
The "13" are just Xehanort expanding on techniques from Lord Voldemort though, lol, and aside from Ansem and Xemnas, who are somewhat true "Nortspawns" as well as Trollanort, whos the teen version of old Overnort, the others are all more or less slaves whose true personality is held prisoner in their own hearts, neither "clones" nor "reincarnations" but living meatpuppets.

Xion was created as a clone, yes, but development and connections with others turned her into a distinct person of her own, she's neither Sora, nor Roxas or Kairi.

Faith in the series? Haha, despite all of Nomura's creativity a good storyteller he is not I'm afraid. It's less about faith and more about having fingers crossed and hoping that for once he might use a more creative idea than to just copy character designs yet again and possibly destroy already established characters with it.
I always try to have a positive outlook towards things, lol, but maybe Anagram's attitude has rubbed off on me a little bit by now. ;P


That's practically the main gist of it which I have as well. Hirokey's "variant" allows to interpret true parallels and may also open the possibility of the "Foretellers" actually being different persons (in personality and appearance) if they are stripped of the memories that don't belong to them.
The whole damn thing being just repetitions and "cycles" (the very first Final Fantasy, Dissidia, Type-0 and many others already did this to death) is so excruciatingly boring that probably not even the biggest hyperactive nerd would get excited about it.
Not to mention it would make every effort of nearly all the characters moot cause destiny, destroying any sense of accomplishment even worse than DDD's Xehanort time tourist tours did.


Well that could work, however the series itself is going out of its way to actually drastically portray the exact opposite by establishing characters like Roxas, Naminé, Xion and the BBS-crew as their own individuals apart from "Sora, Riku and Kairi", but without truly showing it off.
The problem lies again with the writing not really drawing true parallels between the characters but making repetitions out of them.



That's why I think there has to be a "Void Beyond" or similar "realm" where hearts can be sent to from where there is no return.
Memories are immortal, so much we know since CoM and since memories are the main "component" of a heart, Xehanort's essence probably cannot be erased from existence completely/thoroughly, but it may be possible to send it somewhere where it can't return from (except he probably does when Nomura decides on a whim to bring Xehanort back in the third or fourth saga).

I don't know if I recall correctly, but wasn't it so that when game source and interview source stand in direct conflict, the game source (as primary medium overall) takes precedence?
It should also maybe be noted that the context in which Nomura stated that bit was in a section about Blank Points, thus probably mostly referring to the people directly connected to Sora, not to a general universal rule.

I'm getting a strong feeling that this cyclic destiny dogma will be set up for the sole purpose of having a climactic "Screw Destiny!" moment from the friendship-empowered heroes. It's clichéd as all hell, but it seems likely if at least part of this theory proves to be true.

I don't know if I recall correctly, but wasn't it so that when game source and interview source stand in direct conflict, the game source (as primary medium overall) takes precedence? It should also maybe be noted that the context in which Nomura stated that bit was in a section about Blank Points, thus probably mostly referring to the people directly connected to Sora, not to a general universal rule.

I'm of the mind that "there's no concept of death in KH" means "I haven't worked out a detailed and complicated mythos for the afterlife yet." Which is a true statement. For a series as lore-heavy as this, the details of a heart's posthumous existence are surprisingly vague.

There was sort of such a moment in KH3D, but they changed it for the English release lol.

Meh. Sounds KH enough. Through the power of collectivism, the threat known as Xehanort will forever be subjugated. I can even see "Reconnect: Kingdom Hearts" on my TV screen already. I can hear Sora having a monologue as the endgame cutscenes play out, saying how it's important to always rely on someone else, to connect your heart with others. Saying that the true Kingdom Hearts is the power in the bonds of every hearts we touched, and all that jazz.

But back to Skuld, lol. Although I would like to see her in Unreal Engine 4 HD 3D model, I'm getting this vibe that we might be some chi characters in Back Cover, but not in KH3.

The "All for one, one for all" still happens like a hundred times, so we are good.

Besides that I also think that these cutesy friendship is my power trope is overdone in any medium, in Kingdom Hearts there really seems to be power coming from it, not just some fighting spirit, so I'm kinda okay with it.


Why waste a perfectly good character model? Data replica bosses for the Foretellers and other [chi] characters for Kingdom Hearts III Final Mix confirmed.

lol I like that idea of fighting chi characters as optional bosses.

Howdy.. Thing just get burned as other not expected it to be..

Honestly I don't think we have a shred of reason to believe the foretellers are "good" anymore than Eraqus and Xehanort view themselves as being "good". In fact for the history that has been repeated to us multiple times to be true the either the foretellers or the Master of Masters must actually be evil. Why? Because one of the things that has never changed about this tale is that we've been repeatedly told the keyblade was forged specifically to conquer the light, it was forged out of people's greed. Those who used it to defend the light came after people who were using the keyblade to conquer the light were already running around. That doesn't mean the bad guys were really bad though. Eraqus absolutely was a villain of BBS he is the source of nearly all of TAV's conflict and his death is appropriate and just, setting him up for a proper redemption arc or bringing his story to a fitting end. But at his core Eraqus was a good person heck Riku in KH1 for as twisted and messed up as he was wasn't really a bad person and look at the apprentices/org most of them weren't bad people either, they were just mislead by some pretty nasty villains then twisted by circumstance.

In fact it's extremely odd that only the seemingly dark and ominous Nightmare Chirithy (Not the foretellers) is acknowledging that lux is the source of the fighting and strife that is being bred between wielders/unions. And then there is Ava's line about how she is trusting children who are not connected to unions with the future. There is just....a lot to tells us that whatever is going on isn't right.

On the subject of clones I've been reading a lot of homestuck lately and I think it's made me okay with the foretellers being clones in some capacity. I mean think about it like this we have a LOT of clones but we've never had a true clones, the closest we had was repliku. But you know I've been thinking about what if the point of these foretellers is to have true direct clones of Kairi, Riku, Terra, Aqua, and Ventus so we can see how they would act in a totally different situation/life. Specifically see how they would hold together facing a crisis without Sora. Sora's absence seems to be IMO the oddest thing about this foreteller group that's why I think maybe this whole story might just be another way to compound how necessary Sora is. To show that without Sora, without a regular kid with a good empathetic heart, how his special friends fall apart without him and they bring the end of the ancient world. Which then parallels to KH3 where with Sora's help, with Sora being the difference, him and his friends save the present world. Though this is more just ramblings of a theory at this point.

At that point, i'd believe Player in KHX is Sora. They would fulfil the same roll and bring all of this full circle.

As opposed to clones, here's what I think the Foretellers are...

Remember how in the introduction of Kingdom Hearts X, the Master of Master's gave five of the six Foreteller's new names? well, what were their original names? aside Ava, we do not know what their original names were. I have a theory that has figured it all out.


The Master of Master used The Book of Prophecies to summon projections of Riku, Kairi, Terra, Ventus and Aqua. He then rebranded the names of these projected version of our heroes to be called Unicornis, Vulpeus, Ursus, Leopardos and Anguis respectively and made them Foretellers to serve under him. Essentially, the Foretellers are like nobodies in the context that they do not exist, however, they've diverged so far away from their original identity that they've molded new and original identites.


This theory inevitably has two key issues that I'll answer right away.


1) If Ava was Kairi summoned from the Book of Prophecies, why is she called Ava?


Well, as a projection, we do not know how much memory these summons retain from their original versions. Because of this, the summoner of the projections could have the ability to manipulate their memory to their liking. In Kingdom Hearts X, the medal/cards projections are summoned temporarily as an assist in battle. What happens if they're summoned for permanent means?


We know that the Disney worlds and all the inhabitants of the Disney worlds are projections from Daybreak Town, however, they're projections by a world. The medals/cards are not projections from Daybreak Town as the player has access to them at will...


2) What about the pupil that did not end up becoming a Foreteller? who in the world is that person?


Well, my prediction is that the foreteller that was not chosen was an original character. But why? surely a projected version of Sora or Lea could have worked right? well, you see, we know nothing about the Master... why create factions to obtain Lux? division is the last thing you want to go through with if you want to collectively gain light. I believe that the original character was not chosen as a Foreteller because he had too much "sense of self" in order to really assimilate to the bidding of the Masters of Masters. The Master of Masters wanted to conduct the Keyblade War in order to recreate the world in his image.


In layman terms, the Master of Masters is the influence that got Xehanort into the mindset of reincarnating the Keyblade War and obtaining vessels to create Kingdom Hearts in his image!

If there's any further loopholes or inconsistencies with my theory, Here's some more details to my theory...


1) The Foretellers existed by being re-branded from their original identities to have new identities (like how Xemnas rebranded the nobodies of Roxas/Radiant Garden characters). Think of the Foretellers as permanent medal/card projections that have a distinguishable sense of self (like Roxas. He's Sora's nobody but he has more than enough to maintain his own identity).


2) Riku, Kairi, Ventus, Terra and Aqua still exist. They're entirely human and real. The one's that don't "truly exist" are Unicornis, Vulpeus, Leopardos, Ursus and Anguis respectively, because, they're the medal/card projections of our heroes summoned from The Book of Prophecies.


3) The heroes of the future and the Foretellers of the past do not "directly affect eachother". This is why this theory is not the "reincarnation theory". If the Master of Masters never hypothetically used the Book of Prophecies to summon projections of our heroes to be Foretellers then our heroes would have still existed. Remember how Mickey, Donald and Goofy were in KHX yet they're not linked with the Disney trio in any way? That's what the Foretellers are.

So what you're saying is that the Foretellers are like a sort of "Xehanorganization", under the command of the Master of Masters? Sounds something like that because MX and the Master both want to create a group of in order to get the light: Kingdom Hearts.

[FONT=arial black]BINGO: That's exactly what I'm speculating![/FONT]

Now that's... interesting. But wouldn't Master Xehanort be the reincarnated version of the Master of Masters? If so, then who could be the reincarnation of the sixth apprentice? Sora?

Not really, no. My theory isn't reincarnation. The Masters of Masters and Sixth Foreteller are entirely original characters with no ties.

Basically this is how I envision the foretellers
A Riku conjured from the Book of Prophecies --> Memories Manipulated --> Renamed and Rebranded --> Unicornis
A Kairi conjured from the Book of Prophecies --> Memories Manipulated --> Renamed and Rebranded --> Vulpes
A Terra conjured from the Book of Prophecies --> Memories Manipulated --> Renamed and Rebranded --> Ursus
A Aqua conjured from the Book of Prophecies --> Memories Manipulated --> Renamed and Rebranded --> Anguis
A Ventus conjured from the Book of Prophecies --> Memories Manipulated --> Renamed and Rebranded --> Leopardos

So instead of being clones like Repliku and Xion, they're actual people that had identities prior to their transformation?

Not actual people, "projections" of actual people formed by The Book of Prophecies, remember, The Book of Prophecies can conjure up beings (imagine them like data versions from Re:Coded).

Honestly I don't think we have any reason to believe Ava is actually her true name. The Master of Masters has intentionally gone out of the way to hide their identity including giving them new names so we've every reason to believe Ava is the name she was given, not that name she started out with. Especially since random wielders know Ava's name as Ava, wouldn't be a very good hidden identity if everyone just knew her true name. They've never to my knowledge actually said the union names were the new names given. I think the union names are just that, union names. Which is to say those particular names are no different than the other group names in the series like Organization XIII, Seekers of Darkness, Guardians of Light, etc... So as a comparison...

Ienzo>renamed Zexion>help forms the Organization
Kairi>renamed Ava>forms the Vulpeus Union

As for the rest I had a theory like that but then someone poked a pretty big hole into it I couldn't quite find a good way to work around. It was something along the lines of "why bother summoning Riku, Kairi, Terra, Aqua, and Ventus from the book to turn them into foretellers when they could have just summoned the foretellers themselves from the book". Which was a pretty good point...I mean what exactly are the benefits to summoning copies of wielders to manipulate when they could of just skipped the busy work entirely and jumped straight to the end product?

That's a surprisingly easy loophole to solve, the Master of Masters needed to better understand what he was conjuring up in order to execute his plan intricately. By default, Riku, Kairi, Ventus, Terra and Aqua exist beyond the foretold Keyblade War whilst the “lost masters” are foretold to perish. For someone who has foresight to the future, the Keyblade wielders that exist beyond the Keyblade War would be more of a benefit for The Master of Master. However, The Master of Master would not be aware that the projected heroes end up becoming the “lost masters”. The Book of Prophecies only conjures up beings, it doesn’t give a detailed profile of who they are (or at least, there’s nothing in KHX lore that states so), therefore, that loophole is solved.


In layman terms, Master of Master would rather summon projections of Riku, Kairi, Ventus, Terra and Aqua because they exist beyond the Keyblade War and the “lost masters” do not. Unaware, the Masters of Master does not realise that the summoned projections of our heroes trained under the Master end up becoming the “lost masters”.

But the book actually has a prophecy in it about the foretellers themselves, about one of them betraying one another...so there should be an entry of them that can be summoned forth. So the question remains he knows there is an entry about the foretellers he trained betraying one another, the foretellers know this as well because it's a big point of contention. So he could of just summoned the foretellers from those entries instead getting the final product without the busy work. That's why there has to be a reason he wouldn't do it and would instead go the long route with them, and I could never come up with a way that made sense beyond a stable time loop thing.

The Master of Masters presumably wanted this inevitable conflict to occur for the sake of having Kingdom Hearts be revealed to him. The Master of Master intentionally gave the Foreteller's this tome. It wasn't necessary but he did it anyway in order for the Foreteller's to doubt each other. This would inevitably cause conflict which would spiral into the Keyblade War. As far as "the point in time in which the projections were summoned" is concerned, remember, in the Kingdom Hearts series, any being that has its memories manipulated from birth, the being is fairly unresponsive at first (Roxas, Replica Riku, Xion). The Master of Master probably didn't want to go through that hassle too late in the process so he selected them at a more malleable stage.

I think to argue what the book of prophecies actually can and can't do, when we don't know how it works in the first place, is moot. I don't think it's some kind of creation machine nor that it can create anything you wish for (get Genie's lamp instead) since it's tied to the future that is (seemingly) destined to happen.

According to Ephemera the stuff conjured are actually illusions, maybe they can be become "real" (by growing a heart), maybe they can't. Illusions can still be used to influence people and that's happening on a grand scale and on multiple levels in [chi].

Then again, what's real and what isn't can also be debated in the Kingdom hearts Universe. I'm still unsure of datascape Sora can become a different meatspace Sora or not.

I dunno, the fact that the Disney worlds are projections from Daybreak Town kind of implies that The Book of Prophecies is indeed a Genie-esque type of device, besides, you remember this scene? Maleficent flat out states what The Book of Prophecies is capable of...

[video=youtube;wLMoa5-yI28]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLMoa5-yI28[/video]

Wait there we go maybe that's why the Foretellers weren't taken from their entries. Maybe they needed hearts, real hearts, and heart growth takes time. He needed foretellers with hearts shaped by the experiences of whatever training/teaching he had to give and thus choose to use an earlier entry of them, when they were Riku/Kairi/Terra/Aqua/Ventus, and mold them from there. Because then even if he could just kind of take the end product foreteller from their later entry they would still just be shells devoid of a true heart.

But then that's make them nobodies (which I highly doubt they are). As of right now, we really do not know how exact a being from The Book of Prophecies is from their original counterpart. I suppose that there would be a catch in summoning something from The Book of Prophecies, e.g, summoning Disney worlds means that they will follow the path destined for them (recreating the original Disney movie), or if a being is summoned, they are only summoned temporarily to prevent time loopholes.

Not Nobodies it would make them the same thing Data Sora and all our little data copies from the journal are. Empty shells made from memories stored inside of a book taking a physical form.....but yes fundamentally that does make them like Nobodies. That's kind of the point Coded makes about Data Sora what with Pete emphasizing he is just an empty lump of data who can't really feel anything, just a construct they made a being without a heart.