(Bismillahirahmaniraheem)
▽;5675539 said:
Nelo, you seem to refer to the quran as the only book that as never been changed, but how can you even say that? After all, you could say that you can't really know, it might've been changed a few hundred years after it was first conceived. Of course, the alien might come up with this question, so how will you answer it?
Great question bro. You say that it might have been changed a few hundred years after and you can never know. You see my brother, this is something quite special with the Qur’an, something no other divine doctrine has ever had. It has been preserved in a verbal form from the day it was revealed to this very day, and subhanallah, for days to come. The Qur’an was not a written revelation to begin with. It was always verbal, revealed straight to the Prophet’s (PBUH) mouth. Every word, no every letter, was memorised by not only him, but by the companions. I can name you at least ten but there were many more. The Arab nation were known and are still known for their amazing verbal preservation, they were known to know the lineage of a person spanning back many, many generations, this is one of their proudest skills in their culture. They were not very learned in reading and writing, apart from a few, so they prized themselves on memory. However, every revelation was written, during the time of the Prophet (PBUH), the greatest scriber was Zaid ibn Thabit, who was amongst the few who had written every single revelation. He was later the cheif of scribes when all the written revelations were bought together to back up the verbal memorisation of the companions when the Qur’an was put into one ‘Mushaf’, one book form. The book was not formed a hundred or two hundred or three hundred years later (like other revelations we are now told were), but a mere few years later, after the whole of the Qur’an was complete. This mushaf, known as the Mushaf of the Kaliph Usman (RA) is still available to this day. And whatsmore, the verbal memorisation never stopped. To this day over a million Muslims know the entire Qur’an, letter for letter, from beginning to end. For more information on this Preservation and Literary Masterpiece of the Qur’an, I refer you to the thread I made about it a long while back
Preservation and Literary Challenge of the Qur’an. This would be my clarification to the alien as to why it is not a blind belief to the Qur’an never having changed, but evidences. Again, it would be up to him whether to look into it further or reject the signs.
Well if the quran has never changed can you exlpain Surah 5:51, because I'm pretty sure if our extra terrestrial visitor ever finds out about that then the hostility and hypocrisy would begin
Sure thing bro, I’ll try my best to explain. Firstly, I keep mentioning again and again to other brothers, please read the verses before and/or after, to understand the context. It really makes a world of a difference. Also we need to know what event this verse was revealed in. Its funny you mentioned hostility and hypcorisy, as the verse (I will highlight) were revealed during the time when there were hypocrites amongst the believers and they were causing hostility. People who said they believed in the Message of Muhammad (PBUH) but really they did not and they used to take advice and look for protection if you will with those who did not believe, the Jews and Christians. And they even plotted alongside the mischeivous Jews and Christians at that time to harm the believers of Islam. But, if you continue reading the verse, upto verse 66 I would reccomend, you will see exactly what it is talking about. Allah gives us more detail concerning this statement. I’ll try my best to walk through it.
51. O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as
Auliya' (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but
Auliya' to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as
Auliya', then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allah guides not those people who are the
Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers and unjust).
52. And you see those in whose hearts there is a disease (of hypocrisy), they hurry to their friendship, saying: "We fear lest some misfortune of a disaster may befall us." Perhaps Allah may bring a victory or a decision according to His Will. Then they will become regretful for what they have been keeping as a secret in themselves.
53. And those who believe will say: "Are these the men (hypocrites) who swore their strongest oaths by Allah that they were with you (Muslims)?" All that they did has been in vain (because of their hypocrisy), and they have become the losers.
54. O you who believe! Whoever from among you turns back from his religion (Islam), Allah will bring a people whom He will love and they will love Him; humble towards the believers, stern towards the disbelievers, fighting in the Way of Allah, and never afraid of the blame of the blamers. That is the Grace of Allah which He bestows on whom He wills. And Allah is All-Sufficient for His creatures' needs, All-Knower.
55. Verily, your
Wali (Protector or Helper) is Allah, His Messenger, and the believers, - those who perform
As-Salat (
Iqamat-as-Salat), and give
Zakat, and they bow down (submit themselves with obedience to Allah in prayer).
56. And whosoever takes Allah, His Messenger, and those who have believed, as Protectors, then the party of Allah will be the victorious.
57. O you who believe! Take not for
Auliya' (protectors and helpers) those who take your religion for a mockery and fun from among those who received the Scripture (Jews and Christians) before you, nor from among the disbelievers; and fear Allah if you indeed are true believers.
58. And when you proclaim the call for
As-Salat [call for the prayer (
Adhan)], they take it (but) as a mockery and fun; that is because they are a people who understand not.
59. Say: "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do you criticize us for no other reason than that we believe in Allah, and in (the revelation) which has been sent down to us and in that which has been sent down before (us), and that most of you are
Fasiqun [rebellious and disobedient (to Allah)]?"
60. Say (O Muhammad to the people of the Scripture): "Shall I inform you of something worse than that, regarding the recompense from Allah: those (Jews) who incurred the Curse of Allah and His Wrath, those of whom (some) He transformed into monkeys and swines, those who worshipped
Taghut (false deities); such are worse in rank (on the Day of Resurrection in the Hell-fire), and far more astray from the Right Path (in the life of this world)."
61. When they come to you, they say: "We believe." But in fact they enter with (an intention of) disbelief and they go out with the same. And Allah knows all what they were hiding.
62. And you see many of them (Jews) hurrying for sin and transgression, and eating illegal things [as bribes and
Riba (usury), etc.]. Evil indeed is that which they have been doing.
63. Why do not the rabbis and the religious learned men forbid them from uttering sinful words and from eating illegal things. Evil indeed is that which they have been performing.
64. The Jews say: "Allah's Hand is tied up (i.e. He does not give and spend of His Bounty)." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for what they uttered. Nay, both His Hands are widely outstretched. He spends (of His Bounty) as He wills. Verily, the Revelation that has come to you from Allah increases in most of them their obstinate rebellion and disbelief. We have put enmity and hatred amongst them till the Day of Resurrection. Every time they kindled the fire of war, Allah extinguished it; and they (ever) strive to make mischief on earth. And Allah does not like the
Mufsidun (mischief-makers).
65. And if only the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) had believed (in Muhammad ) and warded off evil (sin, ascribing partners to Allah) and had become
Al-Muttaqun (the pious) We would indeed have blotted out their sins and admitted them to Gardens of pleasure (in Paradise).
66. And if only they had acted according to the Taurat (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel), and what has (now) been sent down to them from their Lord (the Qur'an), they would surely have gotten provision from above them and from underneath their feet. There are from among them people who are on the right course (i.e. they act on the revelation and believe in Prophet Muhammad like 'Abdullah bin Salam ), but many of them do evil deeds.
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These few verses should (inshaAllah) have clarified as to what that statement meant. It referred to those Jews and Christians at that time (and refers to those in these times who have the same intention and attitude) who intended to take those believers who had either doubts or were outright hypocrites, so that they can follow them in their transgressions. The word used is Auliya, which means a protector or a guide. It says do not take them as guides and protectors, those who do not intend good for you (this distinction is understood as the further verse 65 and 66 make it clear that there are people among them on the right course, who follow their scripture, and an example is given by the translator in brackets in verse 66 of Abdullah bin Salam who was a Jew that accepted Muhammad’s (PBUH) message cz it was clear in his scripture that he would be a messenger), but to take as a
Wali, a guide and protector, only Allah, his Messenger and those who are obedient to Allah and His messenger. So it is talking in terms of issues of your deen, your religion, your faith. As again, verse 59 shows how those that are not to be taken as Auliya, mock the religion of the believers. So it would be foolish of a believer to take those who mock and have intentions of taking you into transgression, as a protector, a helper, a guardian for you.
Hope that made it a lot clearer. It is not spreading racism or hate. But basically saying watch out for those people within those communities, who do not intend good for you but bad. Its basically what every parent will say to a child. And in terms of religion it is far more important as following the footsteps of those who take the religion of Islam as mockery, can make the youth of today, step out of Islam, as verse 54 makes it evident that this is what will happen, you will have people turning their backs on their religion. So Allah tells the believers to stay away from them in this regard. (Allah knows best)
I didn't mention a problem. This is what you said:
"Brother, the problem is here, is that you don’t know Islam, and the History of Islam. Because again you seem to assume that Muhammad came only for the Arabs, or the Middle East, and was their Prophet."
Which is something I never assumed in the conversation, so I was making my statement clearer to avoid confusion.
Brother, the statement you quoted from me was not in relation to this question you posed. That was made in relation to the statement you made that seemed to show you thought Muhammad (PBUH) was sent only for the Arabs. Here I am trying to say I don’t see the point of saying no non Muslim has heard of Islam until a Muslim told them about it, because that is general to nearly every topic. And it was something that seemed to be assumed to be a problem by you so I clarified further, but looks like we have both come to a better understanding of this Alhamdulillah.
I seem to be, again, being unclear. I did not say you were coming across as ignorant. Let me be as direct as I possibly can: if you don't know how gravity works, is it not arrogant to claim its origin with absolute certainty? You cannot have absolute certainty on a topic you lack absolute knowledge of.
Hm brother, you did say I was being ignorant, if you look back at your previous post, which is why I explained that it shouldn’t be interpreted that way. But nevertheless, if now you say that you didn’t then ok, as its good you have understood that was not my intention alhamdulillah. I simply said I am stating my viewpoint to the alien, as he would to me, and the particular topic that was in discussion was about the universe being obedient to its creator. Not gravity. If he can give me evidence of it not obeying a creator but following a law of someone or something else, then fair enough.
I would appreciate a direct answer, though. And a definition of what the word "nation" means in Islam, if there's any.
You're saying that if I find an isolated Amazonian tribe that lacked such prophet, Islam would be false?
When it says Ummah, it means either a group of people (or even one person, as some Hadiith mention that the Ummah of certain messengers were just one person or none) that are grouped by either geographical location, culture, beliefs e.t.c.
You may say you know or have found a tribe that lacked a prophet. For one, you can’t be hundred per cent certain that they never had one, it may not have been them in particular but could have been the generation of their forefathers who have taught them the same message of that messenger, to which they may have either accepted and follow or have deviated from. But now, in this age, this time, the entire world has the same messenger, no matter what location. That messenger sent for them is Muhammad (PBUH) as he was sent as the Final Messenger and the only one for the whole of creation. His message is still in existence today and the followers are commanded to tell those who do not know. This is basically them getting the guidance from Allah through this Messenger.
If I may ask, what are these six articles?
No problem bro. I will simply (again..) refer you back to the thread
Outlines of the Basic Principles of Islam, as that first post detailed the six articles.
I fear you're not reading what I'm saying thoroughly. I never once blamed the religion, and in fact blamed false Muslims for this:
"It's normal history; one kingdom beats another. You might say that true Muslims would never use force, but then Islam (and countless others) spread because of the hard work of false Muslims."
And the statement is true. Claim, if you like, that true Muslims don't spread their beliefs violently, but a big reason 25% of the world is Muslim is because of warfare.
You mentioned you could think of countless opposite examples. Provide one. Tell me of one historical conversion of a nation that didn't involve blood or coercion.
I feel you’re not understanding me either. Regardless of the examples, you are missing the key point. Islam is the religion that is to be followed and not the followers. Alhamdulillah, to which you have just agreed that the religion is not to blame. Then if this is the case, I don't see the point in highlighting the issues that seem to contradict your statment. Are you sayng all those who came to Islam out of ‘coercion and bloodshed’ accept it and follow it, pray 5 times a day, give Zakat, keep fast, read and understand and teach the Qur’an, e.t.c cuz they got a gun to their head? Hm. Or could it be they are they following it for another reason? A reason that Islam, the religion, has proved itself to them to be
the religion of God.
A simple example is of the time when Muhammad (PBUH) spread the message of Islam in Arabia transforming the entire nation on its forehead to worship none but Allah and made the a nation of transgressors who were looked at as the worst of mankind to the torchbearers of the world at that time bringing knowledge to the western civilisation who were in the dark ages. What was the reason for this is what we gotta remember, and look at that. It was Islam.
