I need help regaining faith in Kingdom Hearts III

[jmartin912]

There are many threads detailing the flaws Kingdom Hearts has, mostly post KHII entries. And I'll be honest, in 2012 I would have easily dismissed any point anyone would try and make as being hypercritical, because that's just how much I loved the series. It was extremely easy for me to turn a blind eye to any flaw KH has, no matter how glaring that flaw might be. I don't know exactly when the tables were turned in my mind, but they sure as hell have. I can't watch a new trailer or anything pertaining to KH's future without scoffing and immediately finding something to pick apart.

I think that it really all started with KHIIFM and its secret ending. I watched it more times than I'd like to admit. The hype I had created within my mind for Birth by Sleep was unfathomable. There was a seductive darkness, a darkness the series had never even come close to. Dialogue was nonexistent yet by the end I felt like Terra, Ventus and Aqua were the actual protagonists all along and Sora was some frumpy supporting role. The despair the trio had was basically tangible, things looked absolutely hopeless, things couldn't have possibly gotten any worse so in a paradoxical sense hope was birthed from that despair. And then... The actual game happened. It felt watered down. The darkness was gone, there really wasn't any impending doom, and the chemistry they seemed to have had was nonexistent. And in conclusion we were left with more questions than answers, which has become a staple for this series. That wouldn't really be an issue if Nomura wouldn't incessantly dangle the notion of finally getting those answers over our, rather, my head. I don't want to speak for anyone else, these are only my opinions after all. And yes, I know, Kingdom Hearts has never had a simplistic story by any means, but I do believe there is a difference between complicated/psychologically thrilling and just being a downright convoluted mess. The worst part is, a plot device like time travel was not a necessity for the story to progress, especially not with the "laws" that govern time travel in the KH universe, it just adds insult to injury. Nomura is guilty of the same thing his character is, he's being messy and rushing things along much like Xehanort did in Birth by Sleep. It's obvious he is trying to create an antagonist in the style of other villains such as Voldemort or maybe even Orochimaru. I honestly can't decide if he is trying to make Xehanort come off as pragmatic, cold and calculating or just another villain that got ahead of himself and creates his own demise without much help from the protagonist. I'm sorry, but I'll never believe his bluffs, he's making shit up as it happens creating excruciatingly painful plot holes with each new installment. Maybe he never thought people would love KH as much as they do? That's certainly not a completely outlandish idea, who could've predicted the success of a Disney/Final Fantasy love-child? It was a huge risk, there really is no doubting that.

And now I'd like to rant about gameplay. I'm a bookworm, and I've grown up playing Final Fantasy, so gameplay will pretty much always come second to the presentation of the narrative and whether or not each entry is cohesively relevant to that narrative. But I'm gonna bitch about it anyways.

One advantage to making a video game is that it's made up of two parts, essentially, story and gameplay. If the story isn't that great, the gameplay could be its saving grace and vice versa. For me, KH is slowly deteriorating in both categories. We went from flashy, well-balanced, smooth gameplay to laughably simplistic gameplay. In KHII, we had combo modifiers, limits, drive forms, decent magic, etc. Yes, most people go for button mashing, that's true, but so much more was possible if you took the time to explore your options and nothing was necessarily better than the other. And then there's the command deck era. You'd be wasting a large portion of your time if you actually wanted to take out enemies using normal combos. They're sluggish, repetitive and in most boss battles, they'll get you killed. Sure, there are some beautiful and bad ass commands but seldom are they actually useful. That issue boils down to shitty enemy/boss AI's and little to no invincibility frames during the aforementioned flashy commands. Dealing with mobs? Magnega(Zero-Graviza for 3D)+Thundaga, rinse and repeat. Bosses? Seeker-mines(Balloon/ra/ga for 3D) and homing projectile spells like Firaga and spamming your dodge commands, except for you, Terra, you're shit out of luck. Flow-Motion is fun and addicting but you could spam that for the first half of the game and then it becomes extremely gimmicky and useless during end game bosses. Also, the fact that it went from being gold on Sora and white on Riku to just being pink ticks me off for some reason. There are literally bosses in these games that NEVER, EVER stagger. And because of that, command style changes and Riku's dream eater links are virtually pointless because there's a good chance the enemy/boss will break out of your combo and you'll most likely never get to use the finishing move... Ever. That's not making a boss hard, that's making the boss broke as fuck, pardon the profanity.

With all that said, I'd like to reiterate that these are just my opinions, I won't parade them as fact or act like they are. That's why I'm hoping I can talk to you guys about it, explore our differences of opinion and why they are such in a civil manner.

I desperately want to be excited for KHIII again. Like in those leaked documents, I believe the quote is "This is a story that happened in a world that exists only if you believe it exists" I want to believe in this series again, as sappy as that sounds.

(One more thing, am I the only one that thinks Birth by Sleep would make more sense as the title for Dream Drop Distance? Considering its mythos and what-not)

 

[kirabook]

Personally, I notice many flaws of KH. From gameplay, to story, to its development over the years, and even how what Nomura says often seems to contradict what appears to be happening in the story leading fans who aren't as deep into confusion. For me, Kingdom Hearts is the one series that I am willing to... 'fill in the gaps' or 'correct' the plot as each game comes out.

Let's take Birth by Sleep for example (my favorite game in the series). The biggest flaw of Birth by Sleep in my opinion is that it was developed in on the PSP. MISTAKE. Maybe it seemed like a good move back then, but now a days, for the sake of the fandom and the game mechanics/how it plays, they should have just stuck to the plan and developed it for the PS2. The PSP made some of the game mechanic clunky or unbalanced in my opinion.

Maybe if it had been developed on the PS2, they could have fixed or noticed these gameplay issues? It felt as though they were trying to compensate for more restrictive controls, which resulted in some unbalanced gameplay such as:

• Infinite dodges (Aqua can cartwheel into oblivion and never take damage if timed correctly, even if enemies are right on top of you) and the godly Thunder Surges (that I never used).
• Another benefit of the PS2 would have been more content overall. Maybe they could have properly flushed out their stories and relied less on implied friendship and flashbacks. Maybe the darkness that you wanted (I feel like I got it, BbS is the darkest game thus far) would have been properly handled, but maybe they cut out some of it because it was simply TOO dark (I heard that the same happened for DDD, the ending was too dark and was changed)
• And lastly, maybe a good portion of the fanbase would have played and appreciated Birth by Sleep more as a legitimate title if it had come out on the PS2 instead of a portable console.

That said, this is what I mean by Kingdom Hearts is one of the series I'm willing to fill in the gaps for. I'm willing to pretend that TAV have their capes all through the game. I'm willing to believe that TAV's friendship runs very deep to the point where they literally are family. (I'm willing to believe the same about SRK too to be honest)

I'm willing to believe that Kairi just hasn't gotten her chance yet, but she will be a very capable fighter and a good character when she does. I'm willing to believe Xion existed storywise before KH2 and that she really was forgotten and not just created later and conveniently written out. When it comes to story, I'm willing to put the pieces together instead of waiting for them to do it for me. I will fill in the gaps.

As for the tidbit about Xehanort, he is similar to Voldemort (ignores mention of the OTHER series). He's created all these backups of himself to make sure something remains where he can return and continue his schemes. But, that's all I'll say about their similarities because I only watched the movies and didn't read all of the books, so I'm not gonna pretend like I properly understand Voldemort's true character.

In Xehanort, I see a man who was once just a curious fellow and his curiosity lead him to seek out knowledge, knowledge that eventually ate away at him and he became the man he is today. Cold-hearted, nerves of steel, impatient, and EXTREMELY smug. Xehanort in DDD claimed that his ventures in BbS was somewhat of a mistake. He got impatient and took the random opportunity that Eraqus presented him (Eraqus, why did you trust him?? Tsk) to test his hypothesis. It worked. Kinda. You would think Xehanort would be upset at this failure, but again, he already mentioned that he had backup plans. Failing this time was just an "Oopsie, oh well. I must move on to the next lab since this one exploded." Xehanort almost perfectly embodies a "psychopath" (and Vanitas, a sociopath)

And for the title 'Birth by Sleep', well, even to this day I'm not exacttttly sure what it pertains to. It's related to 'being saved' or 'waking up'. "So many are still waiting for their new beginning. Their birth by sleep. Even me. And even you." TAV are the first in the main storyline (excluding Chi right now) who waiting for their new beginning. Ven is waiting to be woken up. Aqua is waiting to return to the realm of light. And Terra... Terra's fate is really up in the air, but he's obviously waiting to get his heart and body back. Maybe the original concept for the phrase 'birth by sleep' meant something different.

When it comes to gameplay, I think the sole issue is its constant transition from platform to platform. I only recently started watching blind LP's of Kingdom Hearts (because I typically do not enjoy watching people who already intricately know the game) and it's only then that I noticed some of the unbalanced gameplay for titles like BbS and DDD. In BbS, all the surges pretty much sucked for me and I never used them, same for Shotlocks more often than not. In DDD, Balloon and Balloonra was just annoying to use and I took damage while using them. I think the problem comes down to not enough testing, or that their testers aren't creative enough to find the broken mechanics (or just that, it's easier to break their handheld titles)

I enjoyed BbS combat the most because of the variety of attacks and magic. I never noticed the stuttering in combos because I used commands over physical attacks, or I just didn't see it until someone else pointed out the difference. I think KH2 combat is nice as well... but I really hope that the Reaction Commands stay gone for good. I hated that for some fights, you had to use them to win or to get a chance to attack. Sometimes it came down to "Press Triangle to win". (it wouldn't have been so bad maybe if it were more like BbS or some FF games where it's a random button combination, not just triangle)

They streamlined the fights too much. There are some bosses you have to defeat a certain way and that's that. You get moments of fighting any way you like, but then you have to press triangle at this time every single time or you lose and there's no other way to overcome it. There's quite a few fights like that. One that sticks out is Axel's where you HAVE to get rid of the hot and spicy fire floor before you can kill him. In Birth by Sleep, I feel like I don't HAVE to use certain very specific commands to beat a boss. I don't have to use thunder surges, I don't have to use shotlocks, I don't have to use D-links, I like the variety. In KH2, it often felt like you have to do X, Y, and Z or the bosses are practically impossible to defeat. I don't want anymore "You must press triangle to win" moments.

Blah. After all is said is done, it comes down to this: If you're looking for gameplay like KH2, you're probably going to get it based on the 2.8 Demo. The combos look better (words from the mouths of people who pointed out the combo problem to me in the first place), movement is more dynamic, staggering seems to be a thing, the classic command menu is back, and other KH2 mechanics have returned as well. If all goes well, KH3 will be improved KH2 mechanics with some ideas from BbS (shotlocks, keyblade transformation) and DDD (flowmotion) thrown in.

If you're looking for story like KH2, well, I hope you DON'T get it because KH2 created a situation where it needed multiple games to explain all the side plots it created (it introduced TAV, Xehanort, Vanitas, and furthered the plot of the 'war'. It implied that the Organization was more than it appeared, and even hinted at their 'other interest in Sora. KH2 left many things to be desired even if the ending seemed like a wrap up). I want a game where Disney worlds matter to the plot again, not another KH2 where they just feel tacked on and boring. I want them to use KH3 to properly wrap things up, not create more questions than answers. Since we know little of the story of KH3, this is up in the air.

 

[jmartin912]

If you're looking for story like KH2, well, I hope you DON'T get it because KH2 created a situation where it needed multiple games to explain all the side plots it created (it introduced TAV, Xehanort, Vanitas, and furthered the plot of the 'war'. It implied that the Organization was more than it appeared, and even hinted at their 'other interest in Sora. KH2 left many things to be desired even if the ending seemed like a wrap up). I want a game where Disney worlds matter to the plot again, not another KH2 where they just feel tacked on and boring. I want them to use KH3 to properly wrap things up, not create more questions than answers. Since we know little of the story of KH3, this is up in the air.

NO. Not at all, haha. Hopefully that'll never happen. When I said the tidbit about a video game being two parts, I meant that KHI had the phenomenal story, with some questionable gameplay, and KHII had the phenomenal gameplay and a sub-par plot. It is quite literally painful having to sit through KHII's cutscenes. I can't remember the last time I played that game and sat through more than 30 seconds of any cutscene. KHI, however I could watch a thousand times over. My apologies, I should have clarified.

You hit the jackpot with Disney worlds and their roles in any entry to the series other than KHI. The movie rehashing has GOT to stop. The Disney villains in KHI were so involved and self-aware. It really made them feel like a genuine part of Kingdom Hearts. Maleficent is the only worthwhile Disney villain at this point.

Birth by Sleep is not a bad game by any means. Honestly my distaste for it probably came from the fact that I played that crap NONSTOP when it came out. I imported it, played it until it was localized and then continued to put an insane amount of hours into that copy as well. The command deck system works incredibly well, just not in a way that I like, I guess? Ugh, I'm just so conflicted when it comes to this series. I want to say that I'm glad Birth by Sleep wasn't released for PS2, but only because it would seem a bit mad to release a PS2 game in 2010. The PSP was on its way out as well, but not completely past its prime like the PS2. I just have a feeling that it wouldn't really have been as successful or gotten as much attention like it did on PSP.

And I can only hope that Kairi will become an amazing heroine like Aqua. Give or take the horrid English dub, haha. Then again any voice actor would pale in comparison to Leonard Nimoy and Mark Hamill.

The only game that reeks of mediocrity was, for me, Re:Coded.

 

[kirabook]

The most relevant part of Re:Coded is its ending... buttttt, it could also be more relevant now thanks to "Chi" and this continued idea that worlds exists in objects like books and using them to affect the real world.

As for Aqua's VA, she really grew on me and she sounds great in the demo so far. There are only a few times that I cringe, but Terra is the actual cringe master. I don't blame them after hearing that their voice director is the same as the japanese one... which can present various problems. I think they should give the VA's a bit more freedom and they should focus on making words make sense, not matching the lip movement of the japanese first and foremost.

 

[namidawa]

The most relevant part of Re:Coded is its ending... buttttt, it could also be more relevant now thanks to "Chi" and this continued idea that worlds exists in objects like books and using them to affect the real world.

As for Aqua's VA, she really grew on me and she sounds great in the demo so far. There are only a few times that I cringe, but Terra is the actual cringe master. I don't blame them after hearing that their voice director is the same as the japanese one... which can present various problems. I think they should give the VA's a bit more freedom and they should focus on making words make sense, not matching the lip movement of the japanese first and foremost.

I found some hope for voice acting...in KHIII anyways. YX's lip syncing is different between the JP and EN versions (2015 E3 trailers). Which leads me to believe that SE is working on a separate English script that'll be less awkward and freedom for the voice actors. I hope that's the case anyways. Gameplay they've confirmed the team from BBS + DDD as well as the original KHII team are working together to attack the issues that said BBS+DDD team have sorely lacked or overcompensate. Hints of stagger are supposedly shown on the E3 2015 trailer. But of course, they're only hinted, not concretely confirmed.

Onto a more relevant topic, maybe you need a break from KH. I'm not trying to berate you for KH (been this way myself) but everyone needs a vacation away from home, including beloved games such as KH. You've been through the die-heartedness and the critical, both completely opposite sides of the fandom spectrum. You've practically aged with KH. But being aged with a video game can bring extremities that can leave someone tired and worn away from the series, especially lasting as long as this. I can't promise it'd fix the pressing problems in the KH series, but it should give time to reflect and refresh your interest in KHIII again. Give ya some hope ye know?

 

[Sephiroth0812]

The most relevant part of Re:Coded is its ending... buttttt, it could also be more relevant now thanks to "Chi" and this continued idea that worlds exists in objects like books and using them to affect the real world.

Re: Coded also practically spoiled most twists of DDD apart from the whole time travel stuff for people who pay attention as well as deepening already introduced concepts from Chain of Memories/KH 2.

The only thing Coded doesn't have is a "oh-my-god" floor-breaking surprise plot twist and another nort following yet another extra detailed plan to somehow get his grubby hands on KH.


As for BBS, in terms of story it barely scraped the surface of the actual potential it had laid out for both the overaching plot and the characters themselves.

 

[kirabook]

I found some hope for voice acting...in KHIII anyways. YX's lip syncing is different between the JP and EN versions (2015 E3 trailers). Which leads me to believe that SE is working on a separate English script that'll be less awkward and freedom for the voice actors. I hope that's the case anyways.[/COLOR]

For most of the english games (except for the cutscene movies), the lips were changed to fit the English voice acting. But from what I heard, they still originally try to make the movement fit as closely to the Japanese as possible before tweaking it later. (which results in sometimes weird sentences and translations)

I could be wrong though.

Re: Coded also practically spoiled most twists of DDD apart from the whole time travel stuff for people who pay attention as well as deepening already introduced concepts from Chain of Memories/KH 2.

The only thing Coded doesn't have is a "oh-my-god" floor-breaking surprise plot twist and another nort following yet another extra detailed plan to somehow get his grubby hands on KH.


As for BBS, in terms of story it barely scraped the surface of the actual potential it had laid out for both the overaching plot and the characters themselves.

Yes, but that doesn't exactly contradict that the important part is the ending. Specifically, the Data-Roxas and Sora conflict along with the secret ending. None of these are ground breaking or grand reveals. Technically, since DDD covered these topics, the whole game can be skipped... unless like I said, Jiminy's Journal and everything that went on in that game is not unlike the Book of Prophecies. I say this because of Maleficents lack of knowledge of the "Date Escape", but more importantly, her mention of the Book of Prophecies. (Maleficent is showing her ageeee)

I don't hate Re:Coded, though I probably wouldn't have played it myself if I had a chance. I loved the Data-Roxas and Sora interactions, and I'm glad it happened in DDD, though actual Roxas was a lot less aggressive.

 

[jmartin912]

I'd kill to have a choice in which dub you get to hear. Everybody says it, I know, but nothing compares to the Japanese voice acting. And the Japanese script in general. I'm nowhere near fluent, but I'm able to get the gist of most dialogue when I play any of my imported copies. When they localize they tend to either miss the point of what was said in Japanese or they over complicate things. The sentence structure is a bit jarring at first but once you get the hang of it its not so bad.

 

[jmartin912]

As for BBS, in terms of story it barely scraped the surface of the actual potential it had laid out for both the overaching plot and the characters themselves.

My thoughts exactly. It's not that it was bad, it just could've been better. KHIIFM's secret ending almost looks like an entirely different game. I don't get why they didn't just insert that pre-rendered scene in with BbS.

 

[kirabook]

They've never done that before, it'd be really weird to be honest. The only pre-rendered scene inserted mid-game was the Sora vs 1000 Heartless battle right? They should have just done a better job trying to imitate it (as well as made their reasons for being there better), but again, I think a major role in this was the limitations of the PSP visual wise.

Maybe they should have gotten there already armored with their final words already said and ready to fight Xehanort. I mean, I can insert other fanficy thoughts here, but I shall leave that for another day.

 

[jmartin912]

No, you're right, its never really been done before. They used scenes from the secret ending in the opening montage or whatever you want to call it. With every single glaring inconsistency imaginable, haha. The capes, them picking up the two Kingdom Keys and Riku's Way to Dawn... Which reminds me, has that every really been expanded on? It really bugs me, and only proves that BbS was an afterthought rather than some secret Nomura had been keeping or planning. Riku couldn't materialize Way to Dawn until the end of KHII.

Some things should have remained a mystery, to be honest. The Keyblade used to be mythical and seemingly sentient. Now it just feels like a hunk of metal like any other weapon out there. Hell, there's a whole world that serves as a junkyard of sorts for Keyblades. Millions of 'em laying around like scrap metal.

 

[kirabook]

No, I believe the secret ending was a bunch of concepts smashed together that changed a lot over the course of the development. I like to think the keyblades in the middle somewhat relate to their stories in the vaguest way imaginable (for example, Ven picking up Way to Dawn when he and Vanitas combined are a perfect balance of light and darkness). Other concepts like that are just as vague (such as the 'Chasers'). There are some things we still don't understand (the structure Terra was standing on before it disappeared, which looked vaguely similar to something Xemnas would have)

Whatever Birth by Sleep was originally going to be is not really what it ended up being.

 

[BlackOsprey]

No, I believe the secret ending was a bunch of concepts smashed together that changed a lot over the course of the development.

That's pretty much what all the secret endings are: intriguing visuals, loosely defined concepts, and mysterious (and undesigned) characters all thrown in together as a sort of "more to come" sales pitch.

I like to think the keyblades in the middle somewhat relate to their stories in the vaguest way imaginable (for example, Ven picking up Way to Dawn when he and Vanitas combined are a perfect balance of light and darkness).

I remember hearing a theory that the Keyblades that each character picked up alluded to their respective fates. Ven picked up Way To Dawn and his comatose body ended up in the Realm of In-between; Terra picked up the Kingdom Key and his story ends with him possessed by Xehanort in the RoL; Aqua picks up the Kingdom Key D and is currently trapped in the Realm of Darkness.

Whether this was done deliberately or it just so happened to conveniently fall into place, I have no idea.