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Making Sense of the Unexplained



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zaqareemalcolm

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The problem with the series existing within a predestined loop is that the Xehanorts would have the entire timeline to work with. If there is no sense of "now" in the KHverse, what exactly is stopping MX from interacting with the future? He should potentially be able to travel until he stops existing. The idea that the present determines the past and future, the past is unchangeable, and the future has yet to happen creates a natural roadblock that Xehanort would not be able to cross. The present would act as a wall and provide a concrete reason why he can't see into the future. Another problem is that we clearly don't have all of the information at the moment. For example, Sora and Riku being able to time travel without giving up their bodies at the beginning of DDD, timeless river, etc.

By 3D's time, there isn't a future yet. MX literally cannot go to the future because the future hasn't happened yet. Once it has happened, him not going into the future from that point in time is already predetermined.
Plus, i guess there is a misinterpretation of time travel. You gain the ability once you give up your bodies once, which Sora and Riku did. Sora gave up his body unlocking his Heart with the Keyblade of Heart, Riku got booted into the Realm of Darkness by Ansem possessing his body.
As for Merlin, chalk it up to being Merlin. He already defies existing laws by being able to travel between Worlds without utilising Corridors of Darkness or a Keyblade to open the Lanes Between or those special Paths prepared for Sora.
 

Nayru's Love

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Plus, i guess there is a misinterpretation of time travel. You gain the ability once you give up your bodies once, which Sora and Riku did. Sora gave up his body unlocking his Heart with the Keyblade of Heart, Riku got booted into the Realm of Darkness by Ansem possessing his body.
I disagree; time travel should only be possible for either RF (Robed Figure/Xehanort's Heartless) or any other Xehanort with a body (although maybe Riku, as well). The way I see it, RF passed on his time traveling powers to Young Xehanort (probably by connecting hearts somehow), to which that ability was inherited by either every other Xehanort that YX became, or by every other person that became Xehanort (Xigbar, Saix, etc.). In other words, I'd reckon that every incarnation of Xehanort holds within himself the power of RF.
 

Odium Crop

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The way I see it, RF passed on his time traveling powers to Young Xehanort (probably by connecting hearts somehow), to which that ability was inherited by either every other Xehanort that YX became, or by every other person that became Xehanort (Xigbar, Saix, etc.)..

But if that happened, the way I see it is that the other Xehanorts would not need to have been brought to the present by Young Xehanort. If that happened, they could have gone to the present by themselves without needing YX as an escort (unless they did not know that this was the plan... I am still not very clear on the concept of every Xehanort knowing the plan before they were killed in the past).

Something else that puzzles me is that, if YX could only move forward while using the time travel, then why was there a scene where Xemnas was shown with YX, when, if I am thinking correctly, Ansem SoD and maybe even one of the as-of-yet unrevealed incarnations should have been with him as well?
 

Nayru's Love

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But if that happened, the way I see it is that the other Xehanorts would not need to have been brought to the present by Young Xehanort. If that happened, they could have gone to the present by themselves without needing YX as an escort (unless they did not know that this was the plan... I am still not very clear on the concept of every Xehanort knowing the plan before they were killed in the past).
YMX's ties to RF are still integral to the formula, so he could still be considered a portal of sorts.

Something else that puzzles me is that, if YX could only move forward while using the time travel, then why was there a scene where Xemnas was shown with YX, when, if I am thinking correctly, Ansem SoD and maybe even one of the as-of-yet unrevealed incarnations should have been with him as well?
That's assuming that time traveling works like some kind of car pooling system; I don't think it works like that, even if YMX literally does "pick them up."
 

ajmrowland

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It's not implausible that yx only made one trip into the future with all the stops made along the way. Meaning he'd fight(presumably) aqua(shes the one that fits best in the timeline) first-as that is canon-and then pick up the other incarnations in order of what time they exist in. Never once has it been implied that he was alone the whole time. And even KH2 final mix doesnt say the number of voices xigbar heard in reference to xemnas in the secret chamber.

Road Trip!
 

Odium Crop

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Simple! (lol)
By possessing Riku Ansem SoD experienced the events of KH 1, CoM, Days and KH 2 in real time (cuz he was always inside Riku) and therefore lost his ability to time travel.
That's why Ansem SoD didn't know everything beforehand, because he experienced the events of the series after he possessed Riku when they occured.

Now I am lost again...

Could you elaborate on that, please? I am aware that that was a very dated post, but I would appreciate if I could get a clearer explanation... The second part was especially confusing...
 

Evello

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Now I am lost again...

Could you elaborate on that, please? I am aware that that was a very dated post, but I would appreciate if I could get a clearer explanation... The second part was especially confusing...
I don't believe that the comment you're quoting is correct. YMX's point about Ansem possessing Riku was supposed to explain how they knew everything in advance; Sephiroth0812 is saying the opposite.

My understanding of the Riku comment is that Ansem experienced the ending of KH1 through KH2 while possessing Riku, then told YMX about what would happen, so that when YMX grew up he unknowingly re-enacted what he had been told by Ansem would happen. Sora then asks how Xehanort knew he would be on DI, since Riku was not possessed yet. YMX hints that he sent Kairi from RG to find the keyblade hero. So that's how the Xehanorts created their plan; they essentially had knowledge of the entire timeline.
 

Odium Crop

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My understanding of the Riku comment is that Ansem experienced the ending of KH1 through KH2 while possessing Riku, then told YMX about what would happen, so that when YMX grew up he unknowingly re-enacted what he had been told by Ansem would happen..

Thank you, but... I am still puzzled. How could he have 'unknowingly' done it, and at what point in time did Ansem SoD actually tell Young Xehanort about the future? The way I understand it, Ansem was Master Xehanort's 'walking heart' until it possessed Riku at the final keyhole, by 'pushing' Riku's heart out of his body and sending it to the realm of darkness. Long before this, his walking heart went into the past to give Young Xehanort the ability to time travel, and then his walking heart returned to its own time.

From then on, Ansem SoD still somehow had a hold on Riku's body, before being destroyed for good near the end of KHII. So, exactly when could Ansem SoD have told Young Xehanort about the future? Could he even still time-travel by the point he 'possessed' Riku?

I am really bad at retaining knowledge about the series, so I would appreciate some help...
 

Sephiroth0812

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I don't believe that the comment you're quoting is correct. YMX's point about Ansem possessing Riku was supposed to explain how they knew everything in advance; Sephiroth0812 is saying the opposite.

My understanding of the Riku comment is that Ansem experienced the ending of KH1 through KH2 while possessing Riku, then told YMX about what would happen, so that when YMX grew up he unknowingly re-enacted what he had been told by Ansem would happen. Sora then asks how Xehanort knew he would be on DI, since Riku was not possessed yet. YMX hints that he sent Kairi from RG to find the keyblade hero. So that's how the Xehanorts created their plan; they essentially had knowledge of the entire timeline.

Yeah, but that's exactly the point, I guess I just worded it wrong.

Sora said:
Sora: What are you saying? That he knew everything that would happen?

Sora actually asks if Ansem knew everything and then comes this:
Young Xehanort: No, not everything. But remember, Ansem possessed Riku and saw his experiences in real time.

Sora: So? That could only tell him so much. How did he know I would be here today?

Young Xehanort explicitly denies Sora's claim that Ansem knew everything beforehand.

Going by logic Ansem can only knew the following things:

1. Whatever memories he had from Master Xehanort and Apprentice Xehanort/Terranort
2. Everything he experienced while being inside Riku, so he could only know and experience things which Riku experienced during his stay inside Riku's heart even after he lost control of Riku's body.

This does of course also bring up the interesting question when did Ansem SoD start his first journey back into the past to meet Young Xehanort?
Right after Apprentice Xehanort split into Ansem and Xemnas? Or was it rather after the explosion of Ansem the Wise's machine expelled what was left of him (a heart fragment or even his whole heart I'd assume) from inside Riku's heart.

In the second case, there is a high chance that Ansem would know very much (but not everything) from the time of KH 1 to the end of KH 2 since Riku was much more involved into things especially during CoM and Days so he could learn a lot of things that he could later relay to YX.
Then these words he says to Riku at the end of CoM
Ansem: This...is hardly...the end... Your darkness---I gave it...all to you... My dark shadow...lingers... Someday... Someday... I will return!
can gain a multitude of more meanings.

I just thought of another issue though that might explain why Ansem can know even more. The "Norts" all share a close connection through Xehanort's heart and it isn't out of the question that Ansem's heart could somehow contact the growing one of Xemnas and exchange information with him even while still in Riku's body.
Maybe Xemnas even went to the chamber of Repose to sleep (Vexen says in one cutscene in KH2 FM that he sleeps) in order to meet up with Ansem SoD's consciousness in the sleeping realm to discuss plans with him and fill him up on how their plans unfold?
Nomura even says in the Famitsu interview following the Ultimania
— After generating and before attacking Sora, were Xemnas and Ansem somewhere that exceeded beyond time?
Nomura: That’s right.
That Ansem and Xemnas were, despite being "destroyed" (which in essence only means their physical forms, not their hearts/spirits/consciousness) essentially "stored" somewhere outside time itself and then summoned by YX to attack Sora and Riku.

Once Xemnas realized that their initial plan wasn't going to work he could just have informed Ansem in order to start the backup plan with time travel once Ansem was freed from Riku's body.
 
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Odium Crop

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So, what you are saying is that Ansem SoD's heart was still alive after it seemingly disappeared from Riku's body because of Ansem the Wise's machine, and then it did not have a body and so could go back in time?

I also do not understand how Young Xehanort 'unknowingly' re-enacted what Ansem SoD's walking heart told him...
 

Sephiroth0812

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So, what you are saying is that Ansem SoD's heart was still alive after it seemingly disappeared from Riku's body because of Ansem the Wise's machine, and then it did not have a body and so could go back in time?

I also do not understand how Young Xehanort 'unknowingly' re-enacted what Ansem SoD's walking heart told him...

"Hearts" in the KH Universe practically cannot be "killed" or destroyed so that there is nothing left of it since they consist mostly of memories which are confirmed to be immortal in Chain of Memories.
They can be damaged and injured to the point that they cannot function anymore, but they are never completely "gone" in the sense of that there's nothing left of it.
That whatever is left of Ansem disappears from Riku's body is a fact as he returns to normal and cannot open dark corridors anymore. The core question is what happened to all the parts (like Ansem's mind, as Nomura stated that Xehanort, Ansem and Xemnas each have a mind of their own) that weren't needed to recomplete Xehanort?

In the original japanese, they use the word "kokoro" for "Heart".
"Kokoro" however has also additional meanings in Japanese which are:
- mind
- spirit
- essence of the individual/sense of self.

Maybe that helps a bit to understand what Hearts in their entirety in KH actually are.


As for Young Xehanort, he had always a desire to see the outside world, but the stuff Ansem SoD told him and his time travel (which he all forgets once he returns to his own time, therefore "unknowingly") deepen and intensify that desire and as YX says, it is "etched" into his heart and so he follows "his heart" to do what is already engraved there.
 

Odium Crop

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"Hearts" in the KH Universe practically cannot be "killed" or destroyed so that there is nothing left of it since they consist mostly of memories which are confirmed to be immortal in Chain of Memories.
They can be damaged and injured to the point that they cannot function anymore, but they are never completely "gone" in the sense of that there's nothing left of it.
That whatever is left of Ansem disappears from Riku's body is a fact as he returns to normal and cannot open dark corridors anymore. The core question is what happened to all the parts (like Ansem's mind, as Nomura stated that Xehanort, Ansem and Xemnas each have a mind of their own) that weren't needed to recomplete Xehanort?

In the original japanese, they use the word "kokoro" for "Heart".
"Kokoro" however has also additional meanings in Japanese which are:
- mind
- spirit
- essence of the individual/sense of self.

Maybe that helps a bit to understand what Hearts in their entirety in KH actually are.


As for Young Xehanort, he had always a desire to see the outside world, but the stuff Ansem SoD told him and his time travel (which he all forgets once he returns to his own time, therefore "unknowingly") deepen and intensify that desire and as YX says, it is "etched" into his heart and so he follows "his heart" to do what is already engraved there
.

Allow me to understand this...

Apprentice Xehanort was disobeying Ansem the Wise by making experiments on humans and somehow eventually starting the heartless outbreak. Eventually, he intentionally used his Keyblade to split his heart from his body. His memories and mind were shared between both his Heartless ('Ansem') and Nobody (Xemnas). Because he intentionally split his heart from his body, he had full control over his heart, but did not become a real heartless like Sora did, because the KoPH brings out the darkness in whoever it is used on, which is seemingly not true in the case of Xehanort.

Some time before splitting his body into a heartless and nobody, Apprentice Xehanort sent Kairi out to sea, as she was believed to be a princess of heart, and he believed that her being this would make her go to the future Keyblade wielder. After his theory proved true, this is when he split himself 'in two'.

As I was saying, the 'robed figure' (Xehanort's walking heart) went to the Destiny Islands, which is where Kairi landed (how he knew, I am not sure). After a long time of waiting, the robed figure confronted Sora, saying that the world had been connected, meaning that the heart of the world was falling prey to the heartless.

Much later, Xehanort's walking heart possessed Riku, being only a heart and having the capability to do this. Riku's own heart was forced out of his body, and sent to the realm of darkness. 'Ansem SoD' was eventually destroyed by the light that came from his Kingdom Hearts, seemingly destroying his heart and making 'his' body go back to Riku, who became fully resurrected in the realm of darkness. Ansem SoD's Kingdom Hearts was made from the hearts of worlds, and this Kingdom Hearts soon became 'dismantled'.

Through some means, Ansem SoD planted a fragment of his heart inside Riku's body while he was using it. This heart fragment could somehow show its physical form in CoM without using Riku's body. At the end of CoM, Riku seemingly defeated the Ansem SoD of this fragment, but other than being 'destroyed', it was just weakened. This heart fragment continued to have an effect on Riku, eventually overpowering him in Days and forcing him to use the dark power of this heart fragment to finally defeat Roxas.

Near the end of KHII, this heart fragment was somehow 'pushed' out of Riku's body because of the explosion of Ansem the Wise's machine, and this is when it became the 'robed figure' again, travelled back in time to pass on his ability to time travel to Young Xehanort, and told Young Xehanort that he needed to pick up other incarnations of Xehanort and (for some reason) also told him about all of the events that happened from before Kingdom Hearts to near the end of Kingdom Hearts II (stupid KHwiki).

Because Young Xehanort's mission at collecting the other incarnations was not finished by Re: Coded, it obviously took some time.

There are two holes in what I have said, though...

1. If what I said is true, then this means that Xehanort's wandering heart is still 'alive'.

2. The robed figure could not have been at Destiny Islands at the beginning of DDD if he was never defeated and if he did come back after being fully expelled from Riku's body; this would be because he cannot be in that past and the present at the same time.


I really want to be corrected here... I still do not see how the bold part works...
 
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