Predestination anyone?

[ozymandius]

Anyone have any thoughts on predestination?

In my opinion, predestination rebukes the whole free will bit, but I want to know what you think.

 

[Duality]

Predetermination is the word you are looking for I believe. In any case, if one does not know the future, (even if another such as God does), then free will still exists. Free will exists so long as we, ourselves, are unaware of the future.

 

[Jopari]

Free will exists so long as we, ourselves, are unaware of the future.

I don't think so. Because even if we know the future it has already been determined for us. This means that we have no say in what happens. It would make free will an illusion, which once again makes the Problem of Evil moot.

 

[Duality]

I don't really know how to explain this without going around in circles with you Jopari.... ummmm...

If we do not know our own fate, predetermination cannot exist for us. We must decide what our fate is. Of course, these were the decisions we were intended to make. God intended them, obviously. However, I believe the core of what we are in disagreement is the definition of free will.

I will try to think about a clearer response, but perhaps, in the meantime, could you put forth a definition and with valid reasons for the definition. Even that is difficult to do. But we must start somewhere.

 

[Jopari]

True, we will probably end up going in circles. The definition of free will is:

free will
-noun
1. free and independent choice; voluntary decision: You took on the responsibility of your own free will.
2. Philosophy. the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.

Therefore, by that definition, if your choices are set in motion by God, even without your knowledge, they are not free will.

EDIT: I forgot to give a reason for the definition. Free will cannot be undertaken without having a total freedom to move along the board. A pawn doesn't have free will in chess. They can move, but they can only move in a way that is predetermined by the game's rules.

 

[Joy]

Predetermination is the word you are looking for I believe. In any case, if one does not know the future, (even if another such as God does), then free will still exists. Free will exists so long as we, ourselves, are unaware of the future.

If God knows the future, predestination exists. Reason being, free will is when we have the choice to do what we want. If God knows, then we have already made the choice, and therefore, are destined to do certain things. We would then only have the illusion of free will, because we are unaware of our destiny.

 

[ozymandius]

Predetermination is the word you are looking for I believe. In any case, if one does not know the future, (even if another such as God does), then free will still exists. Free will exists so long as we, ourselves, are unaware of the future.

1. Pick you poison. I choose Predestination.

2. That contradicts the entire idea of predestination.

 

[Phoenix]

Simple question:

"If God knows you will kill your father tomorrow, is there any possible way you can choose something else?"

 

[ozymandius]

I think that if that were to happen, your father would die no matter what. It wouldn't matter what you'd do.

 

[Einon SAMA]

Cant it be that God determines events to happen and not the actions of everyone? Just an idea. From a Christian's standpoint and imo, total predestination destroys our beliefs. But I'd say that prophecies would most definatley be a form of predestination/predetermination, no? As for what you decide to wear tomorrow, God may know it, but it doesn't mean he decides it.

 

[Phoenix]

Yet that doesn't mean you can change it. Free will is based on the idea that you can always choose something else. If God sees you doing something, and no matter what's what, you cannot choose something else, there is only the illusion of free will.

 

[ozymandius]

That was my point. It doesn't matter if you choose not to see your father for the entire week, he will still die. The reason he'd die is because you didn't have anything to do with it.

 

[Einon SAMA]

Yet that doesn't mean you can change it. Free will is based on the idea that you can always choose something else. If God sees you doing something, and no matter what's what, you cannot choose something else, there is only the illusion of free will.

I don't see it that way. Its like someone who can see the future (hypothetically speaking). They don't choose what happens, but can see it. Its not that hard to differenciate. A poor example, the Force allows a jedi to see glimpses into the future and what not, but it isn't them who changes it, nor is it the Force's will for whatever they see to happen. It is simply what happens. It could be changed, but (back to God) God knows if it will be changed or not. ... Does that make any sense?

Again, back to the prophecies of old. Thats when God determined something. If all things are predestined, then prophecies wouldn't be that big o deal.

That was my point. It doesn't matter if you choose not to see your father for the entire week, he will still die. The reason he'd die is because you didn't have anything to do with it.

Thats an interesting view, but there isn't a way to prove that. It just seems like you've watched the movie De Ja Vu too many times. =P
jk jk

 

[Phoenix]

I don't see it that way. Its like someone who can see the future (hypothetically speaking). They don't choose what happens, but can see it. Its not that hard to differenciate.

Could they change that future? It's a simple enough question. Do they have the choice to change that?

A poor example, the Force allows a jedi to see glimpses into the future and what not, but it isn't them who changes it, nor is it the Force's will for whatever they see to happen. It is simply what happens. It could be changed, but (back to God) God knows if it will be changed or not. ... Does that make any sense?

In so far until you mentioned God. When you said it could be changed, free will remained, but when you put God into the equation, you made it unchangeable, thus, you voided free will.

Again, back to the prophecies of old. Thats when God determined something. If all things are predestined, then prophecies wouldn't be that big o deal.

God's prophecies are simply his sharing of information with his servants. It's a big deal because it's the only time he chooses to share his knowledge with the humans, no? It's nothing special; it voids free will in the same way his omniscience does.

 

[Einon SAMA]

Could they change that future? It's a simple enough question. Do they have the choice to change that?

Simple answer: Yes they could choose to change what they see. But from what I understand, God doesn't change what he sees. What he does change is events, not necessarily a person's actions. Yes he CAN choose to "harden a heart", just as in Pharoh's case. Why was it then noted that God had to harden his heart, if he had already determined it to be hardened? This implies that God acts in the moment, not from the very start.

In so far until you mentioned God. When you said it could be changed, free will remained, but when you put God into the equation, you made it unchangeable, thus, you voided free will.

I do not underestand why putting God into the equation voids free will. Please explain.

God's prophecies are simply his sharing of information with his servants. It's a big deal because it's the only time he chooses to share his knowledge with the humans, no? It's nothing special; it voids free will in the same way his omniscience does.

God shared info with Moses without prophecying. He guided them in the wilderness and what not. He allowed other prophets to prophecy future events, which was a big deal. And I think many people misunderstand the omniscience of God.

 

[Phoenix]

Simple answer: Yes they could choose to change what they see.

Then in this particular instance, they have free will, as they can choose something else.

But from what I understand, God doesn't change what he sees.

Now in this one, free will is lost, because nothing you do can change the path God already has foreseen.

What he does change is events, not necessarily a person's actions.Yes he CAN choose to "harden a heart", just as in Pharoh's case. Why was it then noted that God had to harden his heart, if he had already determined it to be hardened? This implies that God acts in the moment, not from the very start.

I'm confused as to what you're trying to say. Could you reword your point?

I do not underestand why putting God into the equation voids free will. Please explain.

Let me think of an example. Let's imagine you have the power to rewind a moment so that it may happen again.

Now, let's say this man can see the future, and he sees himself killing his father tomorrow. Now, according to what you have said, if you rewind and play that moment 100 times, and the man has free will, sometimes the man will kill his father, other times he will choose another path.

Now, let's see God sees the man killing his father tomorrow. If you replay the moment 100 times, how many times will the man choose not to kill his father?

God shared info with Moses without prophecying.

Yes, present info, not future info, which is what a prophecy is.

He guided them in the wilderness and what not. He allowed other prophets to prophecy future events, which was a big deal. And I think many people misunderstand the omniscience of God.

Omniscience is, if we take the world literally, to know it all, no exceptions.

 

[Einon SAMA]

Now in this one, free will is lost, because nothing you do can change the path God already has foreseen.

heh. Nice. But does that mean he chose that path, or is that simply the path you were always going to choose yourself?

I'm confused as to what you're trying to say. Could you reword your point?

If the God of the Bible has predetermined everything, then why would he act again to do something like harden Pharoh's heart? According to you, he acted at that moment, overriding something he had already set in place.

Now, let's see God sees the man killing his father tomorrow. If you replay the moment 100 times, how many times will the man choose not to kill his father?

Again, just because God sees something in the future, does not mean that he is responsible for making it happen. Yes, I understand that if God sees it, it will not change, but its the path it was going to take anyways. You had made thatdecision already yourself. It could have changed at any moment, according to your wishes, however it absolutly has to be a single choice. That single choice is the one that God knows of. A choice of yours, not of his.

Yes, present info, not future info, which is what a prophecy is.

Prophecy
1. the foretelling or prediction of what is to come.
2. something that is declared by a prophet, esp. a divinely inspired prediction, instruction, or exhortation.

I do not think you are correct in this case.

Omniscience is, if we take the world literally, to know it all, no exceptions.

Yes he knows it all. Does that mean he causes all? To know is a passive verb. To cause is... not.

EDIT: Im sorry if I sound very confusing tonight. I haven't slept in 2 days. Apologies.

 

[Phoenix]

heh. Nice. But does that mean he chose that path, or is that simply the path you were always going to choose yourself?

Hm, before I reply to this, I'm curious. What do you believe "free will" is?

If the God of the Bible has predetermined everything, then why would he act again to do something like harden Pharoh's heart? According to you, he acted at that moment, overriding something he had already set in place.

Inversely, if the God of the Bible is the champion of free will, why is he hardening the Pharaoh's heart?

Again, just because God sees something in the future, does not mean that he is responsible for making it happen. Yes, I understand that if God sees it, it will not change, but its the path it was going to take anyways. You had made thatdecision already yourself. It could have changed at any moment, according to your wishes, however it absolutly has to be a single choice. That single choice is the one that God knows of. A choice of yours, not of his.

As you yourself stated, it is the only choice you could make. Your birth, your genes, the way you were raised, everything you've seen, learned and believed up to that point culminated in that single choice. If you turned back time, the exact same thing would've have happened, no matter how many times you rewind the tape.

I believe this to be reality, but this belief in of itself nulls "free will". When there is only one choice possible (and, if we accept Got as omniscience, there is), there is no free will.

If you want to look at it from a secular point of view, there is no free will either. Everything you are is a collection of your genes and nature, neither of which you had control over. Going beyond this, this is a result of how certain molecules interacted with each other at a given time, and again, you control none of this either. The concept of "choosing" is an illusion. Your brain weighs the options and picks a path based on your experience and nature: there is a reason why you choose a certain particular path, and this reason would not change if you reply the scene a hundred times, hence you will make the same choice 100 times.

Prophecy
1. the foretelling or prediction of what is to come.
2. something that is declared by a prophet, esp. a divinely inspired prediction, instruction, or exhortation.

I do not think you are correct in this case.

In other words, future info, like I said.

 

[Einon SAMA]

Hm, before I reply to this, I'm curious. What do you believe "free will" is?

To make whatever decision I, myself want to make.

Inversely, if the God of the Bible is the champion of free will, why is he hardening the Pharaoh's heart?

Well, God seeing the future saw that Pharoh's decisions wouldn't benifit God's chosen people, God then decided to act. Free will does exist. It is a gift. Pharoh, at that moment, being defiant of the true God, got his free will taken away. But lets stay on the current topic.

I believe this to be reality, but this belief in of itself nulls "free will". When there is only one choice possible (and, if we accept Got as omniscience, there is), there is no free will.

There is not only one choice possible. There are infinite choices, but you can only choose one. Could have have chosen the other? Sure, but you didn't you chose this one. Its like choosing a spouse, (another poor example) today, you can choose several different mates to be with, however, you can only marry one, and it is completely up to you to decide.

 

[Phoenix]

To make whatever decision I, myself want to make.

free will
–noun
1. free and independent choice; voluntary decision: You took on the responsibility of your own free will.
2. Philosophy. the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.

I would like to emphasize the word "free". Are we "free" from God's omniscience?

Well, God seeing the future saw that Pharoh's decisions wouldn't benifit God's chosen people, God then decided to act. Free will does exist. It is a gift. Pharoh, at that moment, being defiant of the true God, got his free will taken away. But lets stay on the current topic.

No no, this is interesting. What purpose did it serve to harden the Pharaoh's heart (it still deals with predestination, as it is apparent that God intended to punish innocent Egyptians in the first place, thus he limited the Pharaoh's free will)?

There is not only one choice possible. There are infinite choices, but you can only choose one. Could have have chosen the other? Sure, but you didn't you chose this one. Its like choosing a spouse, (another poor example) today, you can choose several different mates to be with, however, you can only marry one, and it is completely up to you to decide.

This current thought pattern is too simple. Why do you make a choice? Well, there are thousands of tiny things that affect what your decision may be, and you control none of those.

Say you come at a crossroads: you could go right or left. You would, ultimately, choose one. Why? Personal preference, past experience, etc. However, you will make one choice. you could have never made the other choice, not if that exact situation were repeated 1,000 times. This is because everything that drove you to make the choice you made would not have changed. There is no mythical power you draw from when you make a choice.

Or let's go with yours: you have a choice, a beautiful shallow girl or a plain thoughtful girl. Which do you choose? Preference and experience, of course. But seeing as how you're you, whichever girl you choose (no. 1 or no. 2) is the only girl you could've chosen, because you're basing the choice based on your experience and your preferences. You would have never chosen the other girl, not with current said experience and preferences.

In other words, it is physically possible to choose the other girl, but you never would've done so.