The Return of Terra

[gstkh2]

This is the first thread I have ever posted. Pretty much all I have been playing lately is the Kingdom Hearts collection (1.5 and 2.5, been LOVING IT, especially the fully reorchestrated soundtrack, Shimamura is a genius) but that soundtrack is for a thousand other threads.

Playing all of these games has stirred some interesting theories in my head.

The journal description, "his heart may never find its way back where it belongs" got me thinking. In that phrasing, it made it seem like Terra was, in fact, slated to return.
So, naturally, I thought about what I think is the most sympathetic villain in KH: Xemnas.
So, in the wake of DDD, we realize that Nobodies who have been defeated are reborn as actual people once more.
We have also seen that, in the Sleeping Worlds (and also in Timeless River) that it is possible that multiple versions of the same individual can exist in a single spot.

Now, it seems like a person goes through four levels of existence: human, Heartless, Nobody and rebirth.
And if all Nobodies come back as people (excluding exceptions like Xion), that lends a whole new level of optimism to KHII.
Now, how about this: if people are reborn after fading as a Nobody, whose to say that, rather than Terranort, Xemnas wouldn't come back as just Terra?

I mean, it makes sense.

Remember what Terranort said right after his "birth." "Your body submits, your heart succumbs, so why does your mind resist?" Terra's will alone kept him alive.
Master Xehanort stole the heart, and was therefore able to steal everything else.
But what happens when the heart leaves the body?
Then Xehanort's lifeline to Terra's body is gone.
By that time he had firmly taken hold of Terra's body, so obviously he was still mostly in control as Xemnas.
But his grip had clearly, discernibly weakened.
In his search for the Chamber of Waking and his love for the Chamber of Repose, we see Xemnas is strongly defined by his love for his friends. Consciously or not, Xemnas accepts his sleeping memories from both his time as Xehanort and Terra, even though Xehanort's goals are predominant.
But Terra's are strong, too. He had the Organization SCOUR C.O. for Ventus, and he goes to the Chamber of Repose all the time.
So, it's clear Terra's influence was strong in him.
And the majority of Org. XIII (excluding bad eggs like Marluxia, Larxene, Xigbar) were not genuinely evil. Namine said it best: "bad or good, I don't know. They're a group of incomplete people who wish to become whole."

That's the girl who was held captive by them. She could see they weren't evil, all of them. But they were very "means-to-an-end" oriented, and that was the problem with them. That end was good, though. Except for the three who knew what was up.

So who's to say that Xemnas (the currently faded one, not the time-traveled saved one at the end of DDD) would not be reborn as Terra? The original heart would come back to the body, right? Especially since Xehanort's heart is so "busy" being emptied into thirteen vessels.

For those of you who read this far, thanks. What do you think? Plausible?

 

[Korai]

That is very possible, but there are many possibilities that would prevent Terra from coming back as a free person.

First of all, Terra's make-up is very unclear, we don't know for sure what parts of him exist as who. For example, we know Xemnas is Terra's body, but is Terra's heart inside him? Probably not, but possibly a small part of it is, but it's most likely with the heartless Ansem. A popular theory that I really like is that Apprentice Xehanort split his heart in two, part of it stayed in him when he became Xemnas, and the other part became Ansem, while Terra's heart actually became Ansem's heartless guardian.

Also, what about the lingering will? People are made of 3 parts: Heart, body, and soul/mind/will. Xemnas is probably Terra's body, made live by Xehanorts soul, and commanded by Xehanorts heart, Terra's heart is with ansem, so his soul would then be trapped in that armor.

We only know that Terra's body was destroyed. His heart could have also possibly destroyed along with Ansem at the end of KH1, but it could still be roaming around as the guardian. In fact, it could be the guardian time-traveling Ansem is controlling in DDD, and Ansem could have left the other one in the past. But even if both of those were destroyed, then his soul could still be trapped in the lingering will, preventing his completion. And even if parts of what I just said are wrong and terra IS re completed, The organization could've been there waiting and captured him right away.

That is evidenced in DDD when Xehanort says something along the lines of "but one on your list belongs to me now" referring to Terra, though he could've meant a time traveling Terranort or Xemnas.

But in any case, Terranort will for sure not come back in any form besides time-travel or Xehanort possessing Terra AGAIN, the fact that Master Xehanort was recompleted as an old man is proof of that. When people are re completed, they come back in their original form, not as a hybrid of two people that they may have been at some point.

On a separate note, Lea and Ienzo are proof that any aging that happens as a nobody isn't undone upon being re completed, so when Terra comes back, he ought to look just like Xemnas but with brown hair, round ears, light skin, and blue eyes. Ven and Aqua should be virtually the same age as in BBS, but Terra should be about 12 years older, which could make things a bit awkward lol. I can see them just making him come back as his BBS age to make it less weird, though, despite creating yet another inconsistency in the series

 

[Anagram]

^ Except Terranort himself used the guardian in battle. It couldn't have been the heartless form of Terra nor Xehanort because heartless are born from hearts succumbing to darkness. At that point neither Terra or Xehanorts heart had gone through that change. And no possessing another's body nor being possessed makes you a heartless. This was evident in blank points when it showed Terra & Xehanort debating over the body.

Also if Terra's souls had been taken out of his body and put into the armor Terranort would've died. Xehanort stole Terra's body to extent his own life because he felt his body was old and dying.
If this is the case Xehanort wouldn't have placed his soul into Terra because his predicament would be the same as before becasuse souls are the battery. Soul runs out or leaves and the body drops dead.

Souls have only ever been a battery for the body in this series. Even I remember the KH2 part pointing it out.
Besides I don't see why people think the Lingering Will is anything but Terra's will and emotions. If Vanitas can make literal monsters of his feelz then why can't it be as simple as Terra's moving armor?

On topic however I agree with your guys notion that a variety of forms could be there. I've seen a few members talk about something called 'Neo-Terranort', some sorta Terra-Xemnas and just Terra as is.

 

[Korai]

In terranort, Xehanort was keeping Terra's heart under control by manipulating his darkness. His fight in the final episode was a battle on two fronts, against Aqua outside and Terra inside. It was a very temperamental situation, who's to say Terra couldn't have been shifting between a heartless and a heart? That gold dimension, the way I saw it, in there the guardian represented the darkness that made terra into a heartless, terra represented his own self, the pink orb was his heart, and Xehanorts keyblade represented his influence present over terra. Then Aqua came in and helped terra establish his own influence back and get some control. If you watch, when terranort summons the guardian it clearly comes out of his chest, too. Plus there's all the stuff in DDD, they put so much emphasis on the guardian in that game, I'm sure it's tied to the heart of terra or eraqus or both.

As for the soul thing it's not that important, but if he transferred his soul to terra, and bodies age independent of whatever soul is in them, then that would explain why xehanort never made a nobody.

 

[Anagram]

But that's just the thing. We don't really know. The guardian is honestly one of those things that is still a true mystery in the series. There's nothing on it at all.
The only things going against the heartless idea is the facts that:
a) if it was possible to shift between heartless and heart then heartless themselves wouldnt be a big threat
b) it took the powers of PoH to restore Sora to normal, and I highly doubt Xehanort or Terra have those magical light hugs =P
c) As a heartless is born the heart is forced from the body, we know Xehanort and Terra never left that body till Ansem was made
d) the very fact Terra and Xehanort are conversing alone throws heartless theory out the window because heartless are generally mindless even Sora remarks he was becoming such and Ansem himself was called "reduced to a heart" in-game making his heartless state ambiguous

There just to much against it in my mind to call the guardian a heartless if either Terra or Xehanort. BUT that does still leave Eraqus who's heart is also present but never shown speaking with a right mind like Terra or Xehanort.
Or hell the guardian could even be their darkness manifest like some people theorize.

No what explains Xehanort not having two nobodies is that the old coot didn't turn into a heartless. So far every known nobody was born with a heartless in some way, it's their by product. Namine & Roxas born from Soras heartless experience. Xemnas born from Terranorts.
Every nobody is born from that heartless process even if the heart changing doesn't remain a heartless. (aka like Sora & Xehanort)
A soul can't be independent of a body. That goes against the Kh2 journal and quotes I've seen members post bluntly stating that the body dies without its soul.
If something is dead it can't age and if the body dies instantly then soul removal is impossible and also pointless as Xehanorts old body and soul was old and he felt near death. He would drag along a soul that is on its las legs especially when the heart can survive fine without a soul.
The soul is a bodily requirement not a heart one.

The soul is a very important part of this equation don't right it off while simultaneously trying to push its importance. The entire trinity of heart, body and soul matter to a theory like this.

 

[BlackOsprey]

But that's just the thing. We don't really know. The guardian is honestly one of those things that is still a true mystery in the series. There's nothing on it at all.

I figured the guardian was just a living weapon that anyone with enough darkness manipulation could utilize. It never did represent anything past "this guy has some serious affinity with dark powers."

d) the very fact Terra and Xehanort are conversing alone throws heartless theory out the window because heartless are generally mindless even Sora remarks he was becoming such and Ansem himself was called "reduced to a heart" in-game making his heartless state ambiguous

Heartless generally are mindless darkness zombies. I believe that the two exceptions we know of- Ansem SoD and Sora- were able to hold onto their themselves because of the unusual way they lost their hearts: willingly giving them up, rather than having them ripped out by a Heartless or overwhelmed by darkness in some other way. ASoD's human appearance and sentience can be attributed to his remarkable power thanks to his huge amount of dark power... something that Sora didn't have, so he started losing himself pretty quickly.

 

[Korai]

But that's just the thing. We don't really know. The guardian is honestly one of those things that is still a true mystery in the series. There's nothing on it at all.
The only things going against the heartless idea is the facts that:
a) if it was possible to shift between heartless and heart then heartless themselves wouldnt be a big threat
b) it took the powers of PoH to restore Sora to normal, and I highly doubt Xehanort or Terra have those magical light hugs =P
c) As a heartless is born the heart is forced from the body, we know Xehanort and Terra never left that body till Ansem was made
d) the very fact Terra and Xehanort are conversing alone throws heartless theory out the window because heartless are generally mindless even Sora remarks he was becoming such and Ansem himself was called "reduced to a heart" in-game making his heartless state ambiguous

There just to much against it in my mind to call the guardian a heartless if either Terra or Xehanort. BUT that does still leave Eraqus who's heart is also present but never shown speaking with a right mind like Terra or Xehanort.
Or hell the guardian could even be their darkness manifest like some people theorize.

No what explains Xehanort not having two nobodies is that the old coot didn't turn into a heartless. So far every known nobody was born with a heartless in some way, it's their by product. Namine & Roxas born from Soras heartless experience. Xemnas born from Terranorts.
Every nobody is born from that heartless process even if the heart changing doesn't remain a heartless. (aka like Sora & Xehanort)
A soul can't be independent of a body. That goes against the Kh2 journal and quotes I've seen members post bluntly stating that the body dies without its soul.
If something is dead it can't age and if the body dies instantly then soul removal is impossible and also pointless as Xehanorts old body and soul was old and he felt near death. He would drag along a soul that is on its las legs especially when the heart can survive fine without a soul.
The soul is a bodily requirement not a heart one.

The soul is a very important part of this equation don't right it off while simultaneously trying to push its importance. The entire trinity of heart, body and soul matter to a theory like this.

Where does it say that the soul acts just like a battery? That it is responsible for aging and once it runs out the body dies? Does it actually say that? Because my understanding is that bodies age because theyre bodies and that's what they do, and that the soul is a battery in that it powers he body and keeps it alive, but not that it runs out of power eventually. I'm not righting off its significance at all, I'm saying Xehanort would have immediately put his soul in terra, and THEN Terra's soul would be pushed into the armor. At no point would Terra's body be without a soul.

As for the heartless guardian thing, you're not thinking of the same timeline I am. In the battle, Xehanort would use the darkness of Terra's heart to hold it down. But as the battle progresses, it gets more and more difficult and he has to corrupt Terra's heart with the darkness in order to get stronger control, and he becomes the heartless guardian. There is no princess of heart present, no, but Aqua goes inside the guardian, and like I said, in there the guardian could represent the darkness that Xehanort is using to make terra into a heartless. Aqua then helps terra damage that darkness from the inside, and his heart reverts back to normal. Xehanort then tries to remove Terra's heart with the Keyblade, but instead removes a portion of that darkness from Terra's heart and locks the two away. The darkness manifests behind terra off as the guardian, but since it's just darkness without a heart, it's unstable and collapses into a portal to the realm of darkness.

As for the needing to become a heartless in order for there to be a nobody, where does it ever say that that's the ONLY way for a nobody to be made?

 

[BlackOsprey]

Throughout the series, it's been clearly stated that Nobodies are the result when a heart gets separated from the soul and body. This same kind of separation almost always results in a Heartless, unless it's one of those weird cases where the heart has no darkness. Ergo, the only way to become a Nobody is to do something to lose your heart and create a Heartless.

It's never been explicitly stated that creating a Heartless is the only way to create a Nobody, but I haven't seen anything that might indicate otherwise.

 

[Korai]

Throughout the series, it's been clearly stated that Nobodies are the result when a heart gets separated from the soul and body. This same kind of separation almost always results in a Heartless, unless it's one of those weird cases where the heart has no darkness. Ergo, the only way to become a Nobody is to do something to lose your heart and create a Heartless.

It's never been explicitly stated that creating a Heartless is the only way to create a Nobody, but I haven't seen anything that might indicate otherwise.

Yeah, but that doesn't mean that there HAS to be a heartless. I don't understand why people are assuming that's the case unless it's explicitly stated somewhere, which I'm not aware of. If it is, please correct me, but otherwise I would assume that if a person with a strong heart has that heart exit the body, then the soul will take over and they will become a nobody, regardless of what happens to the heart

 

[Antifa Lockhart]

Yeah, but that doesn't mean that there HAS to be a heartless. I don't understand why people are assuming that's the case unless it's explicitly stated somewhere, which I'm not aware of. If it is, please correct me, but otherwise I would assume that if a person with a strong heart has that heart exit the body, then the soul will take over and they will become a nobody, regardless of what happens to the heart

Nomura goes around in circles about this in his reports, as does Ansem. It's why Namine is such rare case. We see this rule in action eight times. Each of the seven princesses go into a stasis when their hearts leave their body. Kairi wouldn't have been in a comatose state in KHI, she would have been a nobody. But that never happened. Not to mention all the times Ven's heart left his body. Their bodies stayed, unchanging and inactive, in the realm of light.

 

[Audo]

The soul is nothing but a battery in KH tho.

The scene between the Guardian and Riku in KH3D suggests, to me at least, that there is more to the Guardian than meets the eye.

Xemnas was present in DDD likely due to time travel, but the whole reason MX comes back in the end is directly connected to Ansem and Xemnas being defeated, meaning, for whatever reason, MX IS the recompleted form of those two. (That or multiple people were recompleted due to this, eh.) Terra is confirmed by MX to be a part of the darknesses, in one form or another.

Rebirth isn't really a different form from human. They just become human again.

I get the sense that Terra won't come back until the ending cutscene, once MX is defeated for good lol.

 

[Korai]

Nomura goes around in circles about this in his reports, as does Ansem. It's why Namine is such rare case. We see this rule in action eight times. Each of the seven princesses go into a stasis when their hearts leave their body. Kairi wouldn't have been in a comatose state in KHI, she would have been a nobody. But that never happened. Not to mention all the times Ven's heart left his body. Their bodies stayed, unchanging and inactive, in the realm of light.

The princesses and ven don't become nobodies because they had hearts of pure light, they're special cases.

The soul is nothing but a battery in LH tho.

Nobodies exist because the soul takes over the functions of the heart and allows the person to think, move, and everything else, so it's a bit more than a battery.

 

[Anagram]

Where does it say that the soul acts just like a battery?

Three elements combine to create a life: a heart, a soul, and a body.
But what of the soul and body left behind when the heart is lost?
When the soul leaves the body, its vessel, life gives way to death, but what about when the heart leaves?
A being does not perish when its heart leaves its body. The heart alone disappears into the darkness.

It has been forever since I read this stuff but I always remembered it due to all the debates on it.
Soul=battery, Body=physical form, heart=who you are. A simple three part set up for life in the series. No soul, no life, no body holding the heart on the living plane.

As for the rest about aging and stuff you'll have to ask one of the more informed interview buffs on the site.

As for the heartless guardian thing, you're not thinking of the same timeline I am. In the battle, Xehanort would use the darkness of Terra's heart to hold it down. But as the battle progresses, it gets more and more difficult and he has to corrupt Terra's heart with the darkness in order to get stronger control, and he becomes the heartless guardian. There is no princess of heart present, no, but Aqua goes inside the guardian, and like I said, in there the guardian could represent the darkness that Xehanort is using to make terra into a heartless. Aqua then helps terra damage that darkness from the inside, and his heart reverts back to normal. Xehanort then tries to remove Terra's heart with the Keyblade, but instead removes a portion of that darkness from Terra's heart and locks the two away. The darkness manifests behind terra off as the guardian, but since it's just darkness without a heart, it's unstable and collapses into a portal to the realm of darkness.

As for the needing to become a heartless in order for there to be a nobody, where does it ever say that that's the ONLY way for a nobody to be made?

Your the one not thinking my friend. Your not paying attention to the series and our examples of heartless and nobodies being formed.
The blunt truth here is your trying to pass your assumption of the guardian and that battle as fact. It's only a fact if the game states something supporting it or if you can find one of the interview buffs to support it.

Other members answered the rest of your stuff so I see no need too. You have fun.

 

[Audo]

Nobodies exist because the soul takes over the functions of the heart and allows the person to think, move, and everything else, so it's a bit more than a battery.

Except it's not, according to the games? And now that we know that Nobodies create their own hearts, you could really attribute all of that to their burgeoning hearts (and their connections to their old hearts as well as memories), not the soul, which again has only be described in the series thus far as a battery and nothing more.

 

[Korai]

Except it's not, according to the games? And now that we know that Nobodies create their own hearts, you could really attribute all of that to their burgeoning hearts (and their connections to their old hearts as well as memories), not the soul, which again has only be described in the series thus far as a battery and nothing more.

When the nobodies are first born, they don't have hearts yet, but they still walk and perform actions. Not just the organization members, but the lower nobodies too. If it were just a battery, then the nobodies would just lie there motionless and not even have any experiences with which to create a heart

 

[Audo]

When the nobodies are first born, they don't have hearts yet, but they still walk and perform actions. Not just the organization members, but the lower nobodies too. If it were just a battery, then the nobodies would just lie there motionless and not even have any experiences with which to create a heart

They have memories, which is shown to be the key difference not the soul, because Nobodies without memories are zombies (i.e. Roxas). Even lesser Nobodies have memories.

 

[Anagram]

They have memories, which is shown to be the key difference not the soul, because Nobodies without memories are zombies (i.e. Roxas). Even lesser Nobodies have memories.

Something that was literally stated in KH2 AND Days.

 

[Korai]

They have memories, which is shown to be the key difference not the soul, because Nobodies without memories are zombies (i.e. Roxas). Even lesser Nobodies have memories.

Okay, I'm not denying this. But where are those memories stored? Chain of memories tells us they're stored in the heart, and the heart remembers and carries out actions based on them. So in a nobody, they must be transferred to something else, right?

 

[Audo]

Okay, I'm not denying this. But where are those memories stored? Chain of memories tells us they're stored in the heart, and the heart remembers and carries out actions based on them. So in a nobody, they must be transferred to something else, right?

It's never explicitly said, but it's implied that the Nobodies retain a connection to their original heart and that's where the memories are. Hence how Vexen was able to pull Roxas' memories from "the other side" of Sora's heart.

That or they break the rules and stay in the body and form a makeshift heart or hang around in their burgeoning heart

Either way, nothing has ever really been implied that the soul plays any role in this.

 

[Antifa Lockhart]

Okay, I'm not denying this. But where are those memories stored? Chain of memories tells us they're stored in the heart, and the heart remembers and carries out actions based on them. So in a nobody, they must be transferred to something else, right?

It's possibly also somewhere in the shell, and over time it contributes to the sense of self, since without them we see Roxas vacant for some time, so it's very likely that they amalgamate and form the beginnings of the burgeoning heart. Either way, it's got something to do with the corresponding heartless, as Roxas was unable to access his memories because Sora returned to personhood almost immediately. Sora even states that he begun forgetting things as a heartless, lending to the idea that those memories filter out and into the nobody.

For the record, Ven and the princesses can't make nobodies because they have hearts of pure light is basically true, and why do you think that is? Because their hearts of Pure light CANNOT turn into Heartless. This isn't really a debate, you're going against what's been established.