Time travel question

[Whirz]

At the end of DDD many of the organization disappear and its implied some of them back to their own times.

How are people like Ansem and Xemnas back in KH3? Did someone go back in time for a second time?

Feel like I'm missing something.
I'm a few hours into KH3 for context.

 

[AR829038]

At the end of DDD many of the organization disappear and its implied some of them back to their own times.

How are people like Ansem and Xemnas back in KH3? Did someone go back in time for a second time?

Feel like I'm missing something.
I'm a few hours into KH3 for context.

Play to the end of the game. If you pay close attention, you should understand by then.

 

[Whirz]

Thanks, I will. I was worried it goes completely unaddressed but good to know it's in there somewhere.

 

[Whirz]

Play to the end of the game. If you pay close attention, you should understand by then.

Well I've just finished the game. Still confused. Obviously they are in replica bodies but when did Xehanort travel back a second time after they all disappeared in dream drop distance?

 

[Genocide]

Well I've just finished the game. Still confused. Obviously they are in replica bodies but when did Xehanort travel back a second time after they all disappeared in dream drop distance?

 

[Whirz]

Not sure that answers my question. The video just says they disappear...

 

[Genocide]

Well, off screen. Ansem SoD time was time travelling in KH1. So maybe then?

 

[AR829038]

Well I've just finished the game. Still confused. Obviously they are in replica bodies but when did Xehanort travel back a second time after they all disappeared in dream drop distance?

So, while it's never explicitly stated (as with so many things in this series), it is inferable that Young Xehanort went back in time again after DDD to pull the past hearts of the Org members into their replica bodies in KH3. DDD took place within the Sleeping Realm, so my assumption is that YX gathered their hearts, which were allowed to exist in the Sleeping Realm without the use of replica bodies, and assembled them at The World That Never Was. It would appear that YX's abilities only allowed for him to maintain their presence in the present for a limited time, so by the end of DDD, all the hearts that traveled through time to assemble there all had to return whence they came. Only after DDD did YX begin the process of reassembling the past hearts and bringing them into the future using Replica bodies, which was the only way they could have managed to keep them alive.

 

[Whirz]

So, while it's never explicitly stated (as with so many things in this series), it is inferable that Young Xehanort went back in time again after DDD to pull the past hearts of the Org members into their replica bodies in KH3. DDD took place within the Sleeping Realm, so my assumption is that YX gathered their hearts, which were allowed to exist in the Sleeping Realm without the use of replica bodies, and assembled them at The World That Never Was. It would appear that YX's abilities only allowed for him to maintain their presence in the present for a limited time, so by the end of DDD, all the hearts that traveled through time to assemble there all had to return whence they came. Only after DDD did YX begin the process of reassembling the past hearts and bringing them into the future using Replica bodies, which was the only way they could have managed to keep them alive.

Thanks for explaining. I thought that one of the rules was that you could only go backwards or forwards in time? So how did YX go forward from his time and then go back again?

 

[DizneyXBirds95]

So, while it's never explicitly stated (as with so many things in this series), it is inferable that Young Xehanort went back in time again after DDD to pull the past hearts of the Org members into their replica bodies in KH3. DDD took place within the Sleeping Realm, so my assumption is that YX gathered their hearts, which were allowed to exist in the Sleeping Realm without the use of replica bodies, and assembled them at The World That Never Was. It would appear that YX's abilities only allowed for him to maintain their presence in the present for a limited time, so by the end of DDD, all the hearts that traveled through time to assemble there all had to return whence they came. Only after DDD did YX begin the process of reassembling the past hearts and bringing them into the future using Replica bodies, which was the only way they could have managed to keep them alive.

Tbh, ever since after the release of Dream Drop Distance and Kingdom Hearts III it has become this giant LOOP HOLE and debate about the Real Organization XIII most particular on Young Xehanort and Ansem, Seeker of Darkness if they were the same ones that Sora and Riku encountered in DDD or just them in Replicas cause as revealed in DDD, Ansem (albeit Cloaked) went to the past and gave Young Xehanort powers to go back in time which would explain Ansem and Xemnas appearing in the Sleeping worlds.

But in KH3, it sure doesn't look like Young Xehanort and Ansem used time traveled again even if Sora did recognized the former in Toy Box:

Sora: "You're from the Dream, the first of the Xehanorts!"

Young Xehanort: "I'm so honored you remembered me."

It's a good thing that the ReMind cutscenes provided better emphasis and explanation on which members were in the Replica bodies from the past hearts that were brought to the future, imao.

 

[AR829038]

Thanks for explaining. I thought that one of the rules was that you could only go backwards or forwards in time? So how did YX go forward from his time and then go back again?

Now, THAT's never really explained. My only explanation is that, when YX said in DDD that "you can only move forward as per the laws of time", he meant that once you've travelled back to a previous version of yourself, you can only go forward, whether naturally or by time-jumping into the future. However, YX could recursively and repeatedly hop backward in time to places and moments where past versions of himself existed. So, for instance, even if YX time-travelled from 75 years in the past to, say, the ending of Coded, which takes place after KH2, he could skill time-jump BACKWARD to whenever Ansem, Xemnas, or any other version of himself existed. In other words, the different versions of himself would serve him as checkpoints in time to which he can travel at will and for however many times he pleases. That's my guess, anyway.

 

[Soaked_Pancakes]

Okay, so I have an additive question: Why were some of the Real Organization members replicas? Unless I'm mistaken, weren't Larxene and Marluxia in KH3 replicas? If so, then why? And how? They maintain their CoM memories -- a set of events that transpired over the course of a like a week, and resulted in their Nobody deaths. So, after CoM, wouldn't Larxene, Marluxia, Vexen, Zexion, and Lexeaus recomplete with their Somebodies? And do so a year before Axel, et al. awoke in the lab in Ansem the Wise's castle in Radiant Garden?

Braig/Luxu and Even were already recompleted and missing when Lea woke up in DDD, but weren't Dilan, Ienzo and Aeleus still recovering from the process of recompletion, despite the latter two having had their Nobodies killed by Riku a year before Axel sacrificed himself to get Sora to TWTNW?

So after their respective Nobody deaths in CoM, shouldn't Lauriam and Elrena have recompleted in Daybreak Town, or wherever their selves split? And then be split again by Xehanort at some point concurrent with DDD and re-join Organization XIII as Larxene and Marluxia again? If they were time-traveling hearts stored in replica bodies, then at what point could that possibly make sense from, and where/when are the real recompleted iterations of Elrena and Lauriam?

In fact, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever for any of the Org members in KH3 to be time travelers...

I do not understand time travel in this series. Maybe they should try implementing clearly defined and consistent rules.

 

[AegisXIII]

Okay, so I have an additive question: Why were some of the Real Organization members replicas? Unless I'm mistaken, weren't Larxene and Marluxia in KH3 replicas? If so, then why? And how? They maintain their CoM memories -- a set of events that transpired over the course of a like a week, and resulted in their Nobody deaths. So, after CoM, wouldn't Larxene, Marluxia, Vexen, Zexion, and Lexeaus recomplete with their Somebodies? And do so a year before Axel, et al. awoke in the lab in Ansem the Wise's castle in Radiant Garden?

Braig/Luxu and Even were already recompleted and missing when Lea woke up in DDD, but weren't Dilan, Ienzo and Aeleus still recovering from the process of recompletion, despite the latter two having had their Nobodies killed by Riku a year before Axel sacrificed himself to get Sora to TWTNW?

So after their respective Nobody deaths in CoM, shouldn't Lauriam and Elrena have recompleted in Daybreak Town, or wherever their selves split? And then be split again by Xehanort at some point concurrent with DDD and re-join Organization XIII as Larxene and Marluxia again? If they were time-traveling hearts stored in replica bodies, then at what point could that possibly make sense from, and where/when are the real recompleted iterations of Elrena and Lauriam?

In fact, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever for any of the Org members in KH3 to be time travelers...

I do not understand time travel in this series. Maybe they should try implementing clearly defined and consistent rules.

Apparently, Marluxia, Larxene, Luxord and Demyx do exist in the present, which is a mystery to be solved in a future instalment.

The only members that were replicas are the one that couldn't exist in the present because old Xehanort got recompleted. So Ansem, Xemnas, Riku Replica, Vanitas, Young Xehanort traveled from the past and used replicas to have physical forms. Terranort is the recompleted body of Terra that was empty of any heart when it reappeared and was used once again as a vessel.

 

[EternalDream]

Before we forget, Xigbar/Luxu was the one to "scout" Larxene and Marluxia for the original organization in the first place. The guy likely knew all too well where they would be upon re-completion, and could have easily gotten Xehanort to turn them back into nobodies on the spot. As for why they recall CoM, but not their real selves, a Nobody's memories seem to be tied to how long their Heartless existed for (see Sora/Roxas). It's entirely possible Xehanort dispatched their Heartless the moment they appeared so neither Larxene or Marluxia could recover any memories from their complete selves, merely retaining what they had from their time as a Nobody prior. This is without even assuming their complete selves aren't just amnesiac to begin with, which is very likely given Ven and Subject X's state.

This allows them to be current day nobodies again like Xigbar himself, Luxord, Demyx, Saix and Vexen, no time-travel involved, and with their memories the way they are (only Nobody memories, nothing else).

As for time travel itself, Nomura plays it fast and loose, but there is some internal consistency at play:

1) It IS possible for a time-travelling heart to manifest itself into the real world temporarily. This is done multiple times throughout the series, from KH1's Ansem confronting YX on Destiny Islands, to BBS's YX fight as the Mysterious Figure (Terra vs MF was deemed canon iirc), DDD's real org appearance, and KH3RM Sora's intervention during both the Terranort fight and saving the Guardians of Light in the KBG from the keyhole portals and an Armored Xehanort Replica.

2) A suitable vessel is required for a time-travelling heart to remain anchored to that time, hence the replicas needed for YX, Ansem, Xemnas, Vanitas and Riku Replica.

3) While time-travelling, your heart remembers everything you do, but to prevent paradoxes in its own lifetime, suppresses those memories (similar to how Sora will likely never remember CoM, but the memories remain in his heart). Why KH3 YX remembers DDD is unclear, but it seems likely that time-travelling again unlocks those suppressed memories.

4) No such memory restrictions apply to the memory of a heart from the future travelling to the past (and then back to the future), which is also precisely what the MoM was prepared for when Maleficent time-traveled to the age of KHUX as to prevent her from learning too much about the past, but since she knows of the box and the book of prophecies, he notably failed to contain her entirely (due to Darkness).

5) Stable time-loops with no determinate starting point can exist while still following all of the above, such as Re:Mind Sora being the reason normal Sora could beat MX in the first place (the destruction of Armored Xehanort in KBG weakened MX in Scala enough for SDG to overpower the X-Blade), or Ansem SoD being what set YX out on his path.

There's one thing that bothers me throughout all of this though.
How exactly are the 'norts time-travelling to the future to begin with? Ansem SoD had to sit around on Destiny Island for decades till possessing Riku, "as per the normal passage of time" after setting YX on his path, as described by YX in DDD. YX can seemingly jump to the future at will, and even has time stop/rewind powers for whatever reason, and he can pull other hearts along for the ride while time-travelling. He's also blatantly using a different method than the one described by Darkness in KHUX, which requires a machine (the Ark), a marker (someone that remembers you at your destination, like the 3 fairies) and a vessel/catalyst (such as Maleficent's cloak), because if he knew of this method, he'd just be able to keep coming back - after all; it's unlikely any of the main cast will ever forget him.

 

[vaderskywalker]

As for why they recall CoM, but not their real selves, a Nobody's memories seem to be tied to how long their Heartless existed for (see Sora/Roxas). It's entirely possible Xehanort dispatched their Heartless the moment they appeared so neither Larxene or Marluxia could recover any memories from their complete selves, merely retaining what they had from their time as a Nobody prior. This is without even assuming their complete selves aren't just amnesiac to begin with, which is very likely given Ven and Subject X's state.

I don't think that's how that works, you see, your partly right, Roxas didn't remember because Sora was still alive or If he had stayed a heartless and/or was slain by a keyblade then Roxas would have remembered anyway but Sora turned back into a human in a very unconventional way, (Kairi's light),and Axel/Lea remembered his past as a human and so did Saix and their heartless were destroy by the end of KH2, and there is specific Quiteria(I don't know if that's spelled right) to be recompleted, the heartless has to go first then the Nobody, and yeah I do think there was something about the type of time travel they used to come to this era that caused them to forget their time in the age of fairy tales, except their names, I mean their Nobody names are still anagrams of their original names.