Re: Union X: Creature that consumes nightmares

Thanks for the videos!
Man, there's already a lot I wanna say about it (first and foremost, apparently Daybreak Town is confirmed to be still up and about in a post-Keyblade War world), but I'll wait for translations.

Re: Union X: Creature that consumes nightmares

At the very least, we all agree that leaving Blaine and Lauriam alone in the Foreteller's room is not a good idea, right?

Re: Union X: Creature that consumes nightmares

Okay, from the thumbnail and the dialog from the recent quests in NA, I'm betting Chrithy made the Spirits as a way to actively help the player in the dream world, since his own role is more passive. That, or it's an attempt to block out the memories player is having to prevent the sorrow, and thus darkness, that may come with them. Aid in the healing process, in other words. I don't have good enough internet to watch vids atm, so I'll give further thoughts when I can see it.

Re: Union X: Creature that consumes nightmares

Good guess! It's both; Chirithy can't devour nightmares so Blaine suggests creating Spirits to fulfill that role instead, which ties in with what's been happening with the player.

Re: Union X: Creature that consumes nightmares

Whoa...So...that would make Chirithy the progenitor of the Spirits, as well as the progenitor of the Nightmare Dream eaters due to the other Chirithy. Hot damn...But wait. Would Chirithy still be considered a Dream Eater himself if he can't eat dreams? If not...is the symbol for them the MoM's own symbol? I know he's got the Eye on the keyblades, but....he's never actually had a sigil like the BBS crew did, nor have the Foretellers or even the book IIRC. So...could the sigil on Chirithy's back be further linked to MoM beyond "He made Chirithy?" I'm intrigued...

Re: Union X: Creature that consumes nightmares

You know what I think Nomura might have just canonized Dream Eater recepies. Wouldn't that be a kicker if the recipes were actually created by say new union leaders and the reason we find them in the realm of sleep is because that's where the dandelions are.

Re: Union X: Creature that consumes nightmares

One more note: in the scene when you're introduced to the Spirit, the other Chirithy is messing with your Chirithy, who then says "Ow!" And then the other goes to tinker with the flask.

So I wonder if the Spirit is created from one of Chirithy's hairs or something?

Re: Union X: Creature that consumes nightmares

Thanks for the videos. Can't wait for the translation to understand what's going on.

All I got out of it was a lot of plot development going on which ends with Blaine ripping pages out of books and starts looting the place with Lauriam offering to help at the end. Well either that or they started making a meth lab..

Context. What a wonderful thing, right? :p

Re: Union X: Creature that consumes nightmares

As always Hirokey, you are seriously on top of things. That makes a ton of sense, especially having watched the vids now. The Recipes used bits from Dream Eaters to make them, and the one Chirithy did something with Player's Chirithy to get something for the bottle (which might negate my spur of the moment hypothesis) to make the Spirit. Not to mention Nomura loves to make damn near every aspect of the series canon in some way (like the constant explanations for Sora losing his powers at the start of each game), so it lines up really well.

Re: Union X: Creature that consumes nightmares

You guys got it right. Although the one who created the Spirit isn't Chirithy, rather, that was the first work that Ephemera and co. did. So yep, it's to aid the player to forget what happened in KHX.

As always, if there's something wrong with my summary please correct it.
[SPOILER='Summary']Ephemera and Co. are discussing how to divide the players to Unions again, but from what I understood, Ephemera himself is seemingly against it. Despite being written in the rule book that they must divide them up again, Ephemera wants the players to be like him during the events of X: someone who isn't bound by Unions.

Everyone agrees with him. Skuld says she gets what he means, it's to prevent the repetition of the war. Ephemera approaches Ven because Ven only agrees because that's what everyone else agrees to. Ephemera tells him not to worry about matching up with the rest, but nevertheless, Ven still agrees because he's still surprised with having that much authority.

For the meantime, Ephemera says they'll make it sound that the foretellers are still alive. After all, the players are restarting from the very beginning their whole adventure in KHX(so basically this discussion happened probably around the player's first quest in KHUX or so). Lauriam mentions if it needs to be discussed, they'll come back to it anyway especially if it comes to the point where the players reach the end of the reset(KHX events).

Blaine tells them what they should do for their first job and shows the book he just read. Ven and Skuld finds the pictures cute(Makes kawaii sounds). He suggests that they should make a Spirit partner for the players. While Chirithy doesn't have that ability, Blaine mentions that Spirits are living beings that eats nightmares. Skuld and presumably Ephemera, then had that flashback about Chirithy saying the players having nightmares about the KHX era. So yep, in order for the player to forget what happened and erased their feelings of pain, a Spirit partner is a good idea, Blaine says. Everyone thinks it's good too, especially Ven and Skuld.

So Blaine rips a page and asks them to gather materials, which to Ven and Skuld's surprise, it's a lot. Lauriam doesn't like field work, so Blaine tells him that he should help him do the preparations for making them instead. So Ephemera, Ven and Skuld are off to gather materials, while Blaine and Lauriam are preparing the equipment to make them.[/SPOILER]

Re: Union X: Creature that consumes nightmares

Nice summary! That was very helpful.

Re: Union X: Creature that consumes nightmares

....Man I really feel like I shouldn't be so shocked at the new union leaders being intelligent, communicating as a team, and not just acting as pre-programed robots. But the handling of the previous foreteller group has basically conditioned me to keep my expectations for the leaders low. Anyway nice job on the summary can't wait to see a properly translated video though.

Also yay Nomura canonized dream eater recepies....I think that might mean every single game mechanic in the series has now been successfully integrated into part of the canon. Well wait no technically the command deck in BBS and DDD aren't canonized yet....

Re: Union X: Creature that consumes nightmares

i mean they kinda were (until kh3+0.2). the implication in DDD with Sora and Riku having to forget their self-taught ways and learn how to wield the Keyblade the "proper" way (which had them go from Menu -> Deck) heavily implied that the Command Deck is considered the Proper Way to Keyblade.

Re: Union X: Creature that consumes nightmares

Quite an interesting bit of lore they unveiled this time around to be sure.

I gotta say I really dig the interactions of the new group so far, as with Ephemer trying to encourage everyone to work as a team and not flaunting his "leader status" in everyone's faces, encouraging Ven, who's very humble and modest, to get in with the others more etc.
Blaine without any delay looking into what they can do to improve everyone's situations and everyone agreeing to not go 100% by the book and refusing to split the Dandelions off in competing unions again. Except Ephemer and Skuld they don't know each other from beforehand, yet right now it looks like they work together better than the original Foretellers ever managed for a whole year.

That being said, Blaine takes a book from the desk which is, if I remember correctly, the one where Ira kept his copy of the Book of Prophecies, does that mean the book Blaine takes from there is a copy of the BoP?
Isn't the one having the book supposed to be secret and not tell the others? Or is this one of the "Rule books"?

It is not unusual that a prototype/progenitor model of a certain thing/being does not have all the abilities and traits the later production model possesses, just like the prototype can also have different abilities the production model later doesn't have.

Not to mention that in one of the cutscenes of the original Browser Chi Lady Ava does ask the Player's Chirithy to "protect them from Nightmares". So while Chirithy may not have the "devour Nightmares"-ability, it may have other abilities relating to deter/repel them.



That other Chirithy, have we any hint who this Chirithy belongs to?
Is it Ephemer's?

It would make sense with the "Dream Materials" used in DDD for Production of Spirits.



Great, thanks for the summary.
Possible translation errors not included, I am really positively surprised how well they go together right now despite not having known each other for very long (except Ephemer and Skuld of course).

Lol @ Ven and Skuld squeeing over the Spirit pictures, cinnamon rolls getting excited over other cinnamon rolls. *ggg*

Them all deciding not to go 100% by the book without thinking stuff over is also a huge improvement over how the first set of Foretellers acted. No "this is forbidden by the teachings of the master and that is forbidden"-bullshit that severely limits the course of action that can be taken or the ways that can be traveled to arrive at a better solution.



Maybe that's intended, to contrast the two groups against each other.
There's also another implication in this as the original Foretellers arguably knew each other well for some years but failed to work truly efficient together, while this group with the exception of Ephemer and Skuld, do not know each other from the start yet at least it looks like they're not only working better together, they also show more flexibility than the original Foretellers.

Granted, this group may also "fail" to an extent due to there being possibly a traitor among them (By now I dunno though if this traitor and the one warned against in the Lost Page are meant to be one and the same), but that may be a setup for the "third time's a charm"-plot device which will come to pass in KH III itself.
The first group utterly failed, the second group did something better and may lay the groundwork for eventual success, but fails too in the end but the third group, working off the basics laid out by the second, finally succeeds.

By seeing this now, with Ventus being this excited and positive about the Spirits and moving out with Skuld and Ephemer to gather materials, I wonder if the last scene of Dream Drop Distance where we see Ventus smiling when Sora meets with all the Spirits in Traverse gained an additional meaning.
In Nomura's Ultimania answer he stated that "Ventus felt Sora's happiness and reacted to it", but who knows? Maybe being exposed to the Spirits (his heart is still with Sora after all) triggered some of Ven's old Memories regarding the very first creation of the Spirits?

Re: Union X: Creature that consumes nightmares

Pinky and the Brain, Pinky and the Brain, one is a genius and the other's insane...

Re: Union X: Creature that consumes nightmares

I somehow think blaine is master of the masters since I feel that he is too familiar with things that are in the room just like he has ever been here before and it was for a long time

Re: Union X: Creature that consumes nightmares

Honestly if Blaine is revealed to be, in some crazy context, the Master of Masters, I know I wouldn't be so disgusted by his bad name anymore. The Master of Memes can rename himself Brain any day any time, nothing too shocking.

But really though, Blaine walking around in the room, going straight to the book's place, sitting down on the chair like the environment isn't new to him at all, he seems so very familiar with the place, I can't help but wonder.

Their actions seem to show great development in contrast to the rather rigid Foreteller group indeed. Lookin' forward to the translations when available :]

Re: Union X: Creature that consumes nightmares

Something about the Blaine-Lauriam duo truly is suspicious, especially how Blaine smiles at the end. I dunno.

Also, wow. They're already breaking the rules. This'll be interesting. Hmmm.

Re: Union X: Creature that consumes nightmares

I had my opinion completely turned around seeing Blaine's bright face in the new art and then he immediately starts acting shady again.

Also, I'm not the only one getting a bad vibe from Player receiving his pet from the other Chirithy, right?

Y'know, knowing that Player's Guilt is the cause of the Nightmare Chirithy, this can't possibly be good.

Re: Union X: Creature that consumes nightmares

It wouldn't make sense for Blaine to be the Master of Masters because it's the Master of Masters that selected the new group. Granted, Striletzia was (supposedly) killed off so it's 4/5 members that he chosen, but regardless, why would the Master of Masters recruit himself into a new group when he already part of the original Forteller's?

Re: Union X: Creature that consumes nightmares

@Alpha, why would he recruit himself again? Well, why wouldn't he. He pretty much does anything he wants and however he wants anyway. Not that I believe Blaine is the MoM, as of now I would rather keep to "Blaine is Blaine", but this option just opened up in my mind after reading yuyayuzu's reply
To me it would make sense for the MoM to stick around under some disguise even at Phase 2: Union Leaders, if I could call the Foretellers "Phase 1". As to "why", that's the MoM's logic behind, and there's almost no certain thing we know about his true intentions and planned actions in the big picture

Re: Union X: Creature that consumes nightmares

These few quests are already more satisfying and less aggravating than the totality of Back Cover.

Re: Union X: Creature that consumes nightmares

master of master appointed the new leaderd himself so he knows all the details therefore infiltrating to the group wont be a difficult task. For why that he let himself to be one of the new union leaders, there is a possibiity that he wants to make sure war happens. with previous foretellers, he assigned different task to each foretellers secretly making them suspicious of each other. it just seems to me that he may did that on purpose and with brain, at first he wonder if they should follow ava's rule but now he said that is it okay to not following book of prophecies

Re: Union X: Creature that consumes nightmares

If Blaine really is the MoM, there's also the possibility he was the one circled in red, no? Like, he's the one who inherited the BoP?

Re: Union X: Creature that consumes nightmares

Ephemer went from "these are the rules, Blaine, we must follow them" to "but I don't wanna create the Unions agaaaaaaiiiinnn" in a heartbeat



It sure is refreshing seeing the five people in charge discussing and thinking with their own heads, instead of spending all of their time suspecting and accusing one another.

The five leaders did more in this one session that the Foretellers in all their line of work. Let us all remember Back Cover opens up with them finding out there is a Nightmare around, stating how weird it is, then starting accusing one another and forgetting that, well THERE IS A FRIGGIN NIGHTMARE ON THE LOOSE

Re: Union X: Creature that consumes nightmares

Would be perfectly understandable if that was the case. It would give the appearance that the Book is in the group's hands, when in reality the Book is still just his, in its full form. The only other person who has the full Book is Gula, who suspiciously teleported/fled away after his battle with the Player, during the war, thus he may be still alive, with knowledge of the cryptic book. Well, Gula also manifested a certain freedom in his gestures and in walking around in the Master's, um, "studying room" (how should I call the room), as we see in Back Cover. Like when the MoM gives him the page, explains his role in a dramatic way, Gula just walks off and cuts the MoM's discourse because he already figured out the reasons behind what the MoM wanted to tell him. But from this to theorizing Blaine is Gula... too big of a step just yet.

Re: Union X: Creature that consumes nightmares

It would be cool if the pet was Chirity :P

Re: Union X: Creature that consumes nightmares

Or y'know, he could just keep the book for himself. If he wants to overlook the new Union leaders then he always has Luxu and the all seeing eye. He really doesn't have to shape-shift just to keep things in check. That's just so laborious for the Master of Masters to begin with.

I'm accepting for Brain to be an entirely original character. I am also accepting of him to be a pre-existing character as he does have traits somewhat similar to the Freelance Shooter. But the connection between Brain and the Master of Masters is pretty non-existent (outside of the Master of Masters choosing him but even that's debatable).

Re: Union X: Creature that consumes nightmares

tfw when u realize we could get the sleeping realm adventure much earlier or Xion and Roxas can get their own Chirithy if Marluxia remembers how to synthesize Dream Eaters in his days in the Organization. Or knowing his nature, he decided to keep the Dream Eater synthesizing recipe for his own.

Re: Union X: Creature that consumes nightmares

I think relating the freelance shooter Braig with brain is more far-fetched than relating master of masters with blaine personally. The way Blaine talks is not very different with master of masters to begin with. It is not like that Blaine must be master of masters but I think the possibility is quite high since he is very familiar with the place and how the hell do he know how to make the spirits and explained it to the others so quickly. Well, he maybe learned it from the book but in this scenario, he directly goes to the book. It may seem futile for the masters of masters to recruit himself again at one glance since he can just keep the book of prophecies to himself but you know before giivng the book to ava he said he will be gone according book of prophecies to all the foreteller so what if he purposely create suspicions between foretellers and with himself hiding no one from the foretellers can know who is telling the truth . But why would he do that and calling ava to gather dandelions, I am not sure , there are lots of possiblities one of it is he saw that the previous foretellers are not fit with being the leaders so he decided to try to discard them and tried a new one . All of these are just theories though

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Wow. This just.... stabbed me in my heart. I did not ask for these feels so early in the morning

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^^^ same, if that would be the reason why Ven smiled back then, things once again go so much deeper... I think there will be more story content that will have Ven and the others interact with Spirits or dream world creatures in general anyway, but Ven must have something special though - so far he acts like a pure-hearted cinnamon roll, pretty passive but no negative influence in any way, this way to introduce KHX Ven pretty much looks like that strategy of "introduce a character that seems simple, innocent and good-hearted, but then add a twist or something important because he's actually meant to be much more under that first glance".

Re: Union X: Creature that consumes nightmares

Now that you mentioned it, I think ventus may be really holding a dog/cat not his leg in that 2nd anniversary artwork

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On one hand, I know this is probably just a mechanic to give the game yet another way to take your money... but on the other hand, those things are literally cotton candy-colored therapy pets. And how the hell can I say no to therapy pets??

Re: Union X: Creature that consumes nightmares

Always glad to deliver, lol.

It was just an observation I made since I tend to have an eye for such possible cross-game references.
There are possibly hundreds of Spirits surrounding Sora in that scene after all.



Well, interestingly this introduction of Ventus so far is totally in line with how Master Xehanort describes pre-split Ventus in his BBS reports.
Xehanort does say he is "too benign for his own good" so pre-split Ven being a kind, pure-hearted cinnamon roll is not something which comes out of left field nor something out-of-character.
Yea, he's pretty passive and shy compared to his BBS-self, but that seems so far the only major difference between past- and present-Ventus, not to mention that especially Ephemer seems to be working towards getting him out of his shell.

On the contrary, I think all of those persisting fan-interpretations that Ventus before the creation of Vanitas has to have to be some sort of Darkness-infested edgelord are what is out-of-character and not adding up with what is said and shown.
I think both Skuld and Lauriam do assert somewhere in the new story scenes that he's generally a kind person, but I hope this can be cleared up once we have the full translations.

Re: Union X: Creature that consumes nightmares

I never enjoyed the thoughts of edgelord pre-split Ven. Just look at that cute 11 year old cinnabun. He couldn't even fight to defend his life. To think.... this wee boy probably had to suffer through something terrible that landed him into the future only to meet an even greater pain.

Re: Union X: Creature that consumes nightmares

Ven definitely lost his memories or something.
He claimed he wasn't strong enough for a bunch of Neoshadows and now he's (was?) mister Union Leader involved in creating Dream Eaters.
Actually, did he just... contributed in creating species before Xehanort and Vanitas? Wow.

Whatever happened to him is going to be the memory loss to end all memory losses.
Or maybe he's been playing us all the whole time. I dunno.

Re: Union X: Creature that consumes nightmares

To be fair Ventus has been nothing but self deprecating this entire time.

"I'm not special"
"I never really interacted with Ava"
"I never really had friends"
"I never really was in the top rankings"
"I don't believe I can really be a union leader"
"I'll just go along with what you all decide because I'm still uncertain about this union leader stuff"

It's actually gotten a little bit annoying how little value Ventus seems to have in himself and his own abilities. Originally I figured Ventus being self depreciating semi-coward was because Master Xehanort was an abusive caretaker who made Ventus doubt and feel bad about who he is. Now it seems like he just always was like that until he got his original self completely wiped and grew up to be...less annoying.

Re: Union X: Creature that consumes nightmares

[strike]ven is xehanort confirmed[/strike]

[FONT=Verdana][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]chill dude he's like ten[/FONT]

Re: Union X: Creature that consumes nightmares

I'm just saying you don't need memory loss to make the Ven we saw in the flashbacks line up with the Ven we see in Chi, he's already there. Also being 10 isn't much of an excuse, low self esteem like that has little to do with age and is usually based on whatever upbringing you had. Which is why in BBS's flashbacks despite him physically clearly looking older he still has the confidence issues. It's not an age thing it's a Ven thing and it's less he himself is annoying and more the writing for him is annoying when that is the only trait pre-heart split Ventus has been allowed to have and is the focus of most of his dialogue. It's hard to expect him to grow in a game like Chi but I hope moving forward we at least see some other facet to his personality. Though the question is if the game will even care to build past Ven's personality when it knows full well it will all get wiped away.

Re: Union X: Creature that consumes nightmares

As mentioned before, Ephemera has certainly noticed Ven's self-depreciating trait and is steering Ven in a different direction. I think we will see growth in Ven, but it will get wiped away not because of memory loss, but because:

- Ven was unable to stop whatever disaster is coming, wiping away and confidence he might have gained
- Whatever happens is partially his fault, again, wiping away any confidence he might have gained
- Before he's able to become true friends with everyone, bad stuff happens and he never gained confidence in the first place before Xehanort found him and possibly made him worse

Re: Union X: Creature that consumes nightmares

To be honest I don't really understand the constant attempts to turn him edgy/dark-aligned.
We already have Riku and Terra, not to mention that turning him more edgy/darker would actually turn him into a full-fledged Roxas-clone.
Roxas is the one with the sharp edges, anger issues and rather bold attitude, let Ven remain the cute cinnabun who's more soft.

Media doesn't have enough male characters in that category anyways.



There will be at least a partly one I agree.
As it looks right now, yes, he's involved with the creation of the Spirit Dream Eaters.





Uh yea? I remember proposing already years ago before Chi was even a thing that Xehanort's "too benign for his own good"-bit in the reports could mean that pre-split Ventus had severe self-esteem issues (which can stem from several reasons, although ambigiously canon the BBS novels do hint on Ven being an orphan who never knew his parents).
Ventus not being confident and not sure in his own possible power/abilities/potential is actually a character flaw that makes him more relatable in my eyes, not "annoying".

Do you know how many children and young teens in the real world face exactly the same issues Ventus has?
A character being vulnerable and having low self-esteem isn't a bad thing and as kirabook mentions, it looks like especially Ephemer is already working on the issue to build up Ven's confidence and self-image.
We also don't know the background as to why Ventus is as he is, unlike i.e. with Strelitzia, we didn't get a true introductory episode centered around Ven before he met up with the other leaders.



It is not meant as an excuse but an explanation, as I've already pointed out above the way Ventus behaves is entirely human and can be easily explained several ways.

I really don't see why it is such a problem for him to have a character flaw that isn't too exotic, gives at least a little consistency to the character we already know and it certainly does separate him from both Sora and Roxas.
We already have the "dark edgelord"-stuff with both Riku and partly Terra so Ventus definitely doesn't need it as well. There is nothing wrong or "bad" about a character that is a sensitive character and was also a sensitive character in the past.

People also need to stop to always bring up Vanitas as a prompt or "evidence" that Ventus must have been "darker" or something.
The Vanitas we get to see in BBS is the result of four years of apprenticeship under Master Xehanort and not something that came already existing directly from Ventus.
Xehanort himself stated that Vanitas is an "empty creature" meaning he started out blank like Roxas and one of the main reasons he even decided to perform the split is because Ventus wouldn't use/succumb to the darkness like Xehanort wanted.

Uh, we already know other facets to Ven's personality though?
He's kind, friendly, selfless almost to a fault and has certainly a knack of curiosity to see new things.
In fact, if he hadn't those self-esteem issues which hold him back as a flaw as well as a certain naivety when it comes to see possible wrongs with people he considers friends, people would certainly (and partially rightly) complain that he's "too perfect" of a character.

Some sort of memory loss will have to occur though as otherwise Ventus should have had vast amounts of knowledge when he became first Xehanort's apprentice.
Except of course if you want to suggest that this is one of the sources as to why Xehanort knows so much aside from No Name. Xehanort is an excellent actor and if Ven is already totally messed up due to whatever tragedy happens at the end/climax of Union X Cross, Xehanort could easily goad him into revealing stuff by playing the "caring grandpa role" he already used with Terra as well.



Depending on how the transition will go I'm not ruling out memory loss also playing a role, but probably not in exactly this field.

Yea, those are definitely all plausible possibilities and those reasons might even overlap to some degree.

Re: Union X: Creature that consumes nightmares

I think I like the no memory loss thing because it'd be interesting if Ven accidentally told Xehanort everything he knew. Dang. If Xehanort acted like he cared about Ven (who was probably quite disoriented and confused when he was found, probably) and Ven ended up trusting him and telling him everything... and Xehanort's mask slowly falls until he pits Ven up against a mob of Neoshadows... wat a twist

Re: Union X: Creature that consumes nightmares

Never imagined this, it's terribly interesting to think of
How things could go from a possible "You're my friend, Master" to "PLEASE DON'T DO THIS, MASTER" D:

Re: Union X: Creature that consumes nightmares

I would honestly prefer this as well. The dude already lost his memories (or I guess...will again). That's honestly way too much memory loss lol. But I wouldn't be surprised if it did happen, its very "convenient".

I mean, it wouldn't even create the kind of "What the crap, dude?" issues that Mickey, Donald, and Goofy staying silent about everything that happened with them in BBS kind of did. Like they knew so much about past Keyblade wielders but didn't find it important enough to say? Now we know its supposedly cuz of Yen Sid, but tbh I could have at least seen Donald or Goofy talking about it before, but meh. At least in the case of Ven, by the time he is important in BBS, he would have lost his memories due to Xehanort. And only got them back right before the final confrontation.

Re: Union X: Creature that consumes nightmares

Updated with translations by goldpanner! Transcript is in the OP.

[video=youtube_share;chhczodje-4][/video]

[video=youtube_share;qZZjWkUB0rA][/video]

Thanks for the translations, this is great ; w ;
Gee, Blaine's way of speaking is surely curious. But what did he mean, "lift the ban" of them getting partners? Is such ban mentioned somewhere in the plot before and I forgot? Or is it just the choice of words for the sake of giving just the message in context?

Funny how Ephemer and Skuld act as better friends to Ventus than Aqua ever did. If this positive relationship with Ephemer, Skuld and Ventus continues, I'll make me seriously question why Ventus considers Aqua as a friend when he had better friends to begin with.

Okay, watched them with subtitles.
Skuld seems a lot more "girly" now, she's cute. She and Ven seem like the babies of the group.
There's much to talk about, I'll just outline what hit me:

- lifting the ban on partners. So the MoM wrote about the players not getting partners? Blaine didn't seem fazed about the fact that having partners was possible in the first place.
- Chirithy and Spirit seems to be referred to as two different things. Either Chirithy is just a more powerful Spirit, or a third breed.
- I already said I'm glad the five are working together, but Blaine and Lauriam setting the pace and program is... unsettling.
- So now the Chirithy are going to namedropping the Foretellers, but they're not around anymore, they're just perpetrating the lie. This is becoming quite the orwellian work.
- Again, so it's Daybreak Town still up and about after the War? Are the Leaders in the real world, or can they enter in the Unchained dimension and that's where they were?

Lauriam: Doesn't sound like my cup of tea, to be honest.


Blaine: In that case, you can help me.


Lauriam: Well *that* sounds like my cup of tea.


i ship it.

Ephemera and Skuld aren't doing anything Aqua (and Terra) already have. All 4 of them clearly noticed Ven's confidence issues. Even when Ven was a zombie, he seemed to still have them. Aqua and Terra were constantly by his side trying to give him a confidence boost. Aqua and Terra did some dumb stuff (because plot called for it), but even from the little we saw of their past together, Aqua and Terra aren't any lesser than Ephemera and Skuld.

I hope Ephemera and Skuld don't have a parent/sibling like relationship with Ven though, since he already has them. He needs some good ole buddies.

Which makes me think if Ven's desire to explore and "find friends" was actually a subconscious desire to find them too.

I agree, especially with the beginning. Only because we didn’t saw it a lot in BBS (since, you know, plot), it’s obvious there’s a lot more to their friendship and everything kira has said.

I’m blaming BBS’ generally awful writing though.

Ok, premise: it's far too soon to compare Skuld/Ephemer to Aqua/Terra for Ventus, but

No they didn't. They kept screaming at him to go home instead of, y'know, ASKING why he went away and what he's worried about.
They had no confidence in him, they kept cutting him short stating they will take care of business in his stead. That's the opposite of confidence.

Ephemer told Ven to believe in himself. Terra told Ven to believe in Terra that would make things right.

I’m blaming BBS’ generally awful writing though.

Ok, you keep saying "it's not them, it's the plot's fault"... Terra and Aqua only exist in the plot. If the plot paint them as bad friends, they're bad friends.

So did I imagine Ven and Terra sparring with Aqua rooting for Ven, or the three of them sitting together and insisting Ven is improving before Terra gave him his wooden keyblade????

Or even Terra reassuring Ven he was ok (even though Terra didn't even know Ven was trying to warn him before he left)????

Or that they were telling to go home not because they didn't like him, but he's almost literally a child and the masterful Aqua was (wrongly) just following Eraqus's orders to a tee???

As always, I can describe in detail the problems with BbS, but some people exaggerate how Terra and Aqua treated Ven, or how they treated Terra, or how they treated Aqua.

Ven was honestly a crap friend too half the time, all of them were. Its why I barely care about their trio as an actual friendship, but rather like all 3 of them individually if anything.



I think what he means is after the flashbacks. Like I feel like BBS TELLS us they were friends, and then immediately shoves us into their biggest fight and expects us to understand all the good times they had but we really don't. There really should have been even more shown before, because yes I agree they were supportive before they all left. But I do see how them constantly shutting him down and not even asking why he left is kind of crappy.

I also think how Ven blew up about silly stuff and started going around all like "OH I don't even have real friends anymore" to be super dramatic. Like dude...you had one argument lol. Also he takes Terra's side way too much when he too was questioning him to himself but meh, I get that. I more don't like the series overall acting like the boys are somehow closer to other boys but not to girls.

aqua: *sacrifices herself for ven and terra, risking her life multiple times and getting trapped in hell for over a decade which breaks her down so much she almost kills herself*
khi: she's a bad friend tbh.

like, y'all. people are allowed to be flawed and imperfect and still be genuinely good people (and friends) who just make mistakes in unfortunate and trying circumstances. and that doesn't make them lesser, lol. like yeah ephemer and skuld are being nice and friendly to ven, but they have also only known him for about a day so far and they aren't faced with any larger conflict that threatens that niceness (YET). that doesn't really make them better people or better friends.

Pretty much.
Also, all of those "good" flashbacks only makes the dumb arguments they get into in the main story even more unnecessary.
"Look at those marks on your wooden sword, Ven. It's proof that you're learning."
...
"Omg Ven go home! Stop pretending you're capable of helping us, jeez!" (accentuated for comedy purposes)

Also also. Being good and supportive at times of peace when literally nothing is wrong is... kind of a no-brainer. I value much more how Terra and Aqua behaved during crisis, I feel they're a tad more important than everyday life.

Or that they were telling to go home not because they didn't like him

Who claimed anything like that. Of course they all like each other and care deeply for one another. Turns out that alone doesn't necessarily makes you an amazing friend.

but he's almost literally a child

The "child" is a young boy who understood and was capable of much more than everyone gave him credit for.
Ironically, Xehanort believed in Ven's abilities more than his friends.

and the masterful Aqua was (wrongly) just following Eraqus's orders to a tee???

And Aqua was a disciplined student in doing that, but an awful friend at the same time. Again, maybe spend five seconds asking Ventus why he ran away in the first place. You can do that, I don't think there was an order telling you not to.
I'm not saying Aqua should've dropped everything and let Ven do whatever he wanted, but at least listen, then decide.
Relationship 101: show the other person you understand, even if you don't agree. That you ackowledge his feelings and emotions. Otherwise, you're just imposing your will over his, thus prompting the other to run away from you (literally, in Ven's case)

I mean, you tell me: imagine you DESPERATELY having to do something, but no one understands, then your friend, possibly even bestie, comes around, and instead of asking if they can help they say "Ok, pal, come on, drop what you're doing and let's go back to [insert name of dull prison-like place]"
Obviously you'll have a better reaction than Ventus and try to explain yourself, but would you really think your friend is being supportive?

Eraqus' order of bringing Ven back was maybe the only sane thing he did. Nothing bad would've happened, or much less.
Strict, yes (and here too, you can still talk to Ven and have a rational, civil conversation about why he has to stay), but if anyone needs to be strict, it's gotta be the head honcho. It's kinda Eraqus' job, making the hard but safe decisions.



Oh, he was. Trust me, Ven wasn't any better. I mean, I do agree BbS' writing is terrible like that.



Honestly? Right back at ya. People are capable of doing good deeds and caring for each other, that doesn't necessarily mean they're great in what they're doing.
I feel like the sacrifice bit is kind of extreme, it's like saying "that person does charity, clearly they're also amazing at every other moral-related thing."

Also. We where talking about friends that are supportive and boost confidence in others. Aqua's sacrifice does not cover this ground.
Again, Terra, Aqua, and Ventus are capable of doing amazing deeds, but they're always one-way, one-man deeds. Aqua will sacrifice HERSELF. Terra will set things right HIMSELF. Ventus will help Terra HIMSELF.
Let me be clear, that's objectively great! Self-sacrifice, in the name of good and friendship! Congrats!
But are TAV great friends that support each other? Nah.
No one is saying they're actively BAD people.

It's outright stated in the character bios in the reports that both Aqua and Terra are somewhat overprotective of Ventus (and considering what a wreck he was when they first met him it's not that unlogical).

Aqua herself also states this at least once.

Yet still, the issue of neither her nor Terra actually ever fully hearing him out can't be denied.
Heck, when they meet in Castle of Dreams Terra even admits to Aqua that he "probably should have listened to what Ven had to say", yet when the next opportunity to do that comes around he doesn't follow up on the epiphany he had back then.

Still, I find it a little unfair and rather cheap to attack specifically Aqua about her relationship with Ven when it is shown both in the final episode of BBS itself and in 0.2 how much she actually cares for him.
In the Final Episode she's all over declaring to Yen Sid how she will take care of Ven and work to restore him, carrying him on her back to find a safe place to rest and the last thoughts she has when falling into the Dark Realm are about Ven.
In 0.2. I'd say the whole sequence with Snow White's coffin speaks for itself.
From Ven's side it is also shown that despite taking Terra's side in the "great falling out" he's still obviously caring about her and yet again asks her to come along to help with things while in the final battles when her life is threatened he manages to thaw himself out of Xehanort's ice "bindings" by sheer willpower in order to try and save her.
In 0.2. in turn it is revealed that despite having an injured heart and despite being comatose, he still subconsciously reaches out towards Aqua and helps leading Mickey to her in the Dark Realm.

While it looks right now indeed like both Ephemer and Skuld are shaping up to become good friends with Ven I won't dare to make this a competition into whether they or Terra and Aqua are "better" friends to Ventus.
Strictly spoken Sora also has two "groups" of friends in Riku/Kairi and Donald/Goofy, so I don't see why Ven shouldn't be able to have the same (even assuming that Ephemer and Skuld will still be around at all somehow in KH III or later) and considering his personality I also strongly doubt that Ven would choose Ephemer and Skuld over Terra and Aqua or vice-versa.

On the contrary, I could imagine Terra and Aqua being happy and supportive for Ven to have some friends that are closer to his own age group.


Also, for the argument about Ven "overreacting" to just one argument between him and Terra/Aqua, him overreacting and not knowing to handle it was the main point of the whole thing.
One has to remember that Ventus has only four years worth of memories in BBS, the four years he spent together with Terra and Aqua (and to a lesser extent Eraqus).
He has no real idea how friendships truly work, but since connecting with Terra/Aqua over these years was what helped healing/nurturing his heart and also his primary source of companionship, closeness and human affection he sort of became dependent on them.
This also explains why Ven can come over as really clingy in some instances, because Terra and Aqua are both his closest friends and idols, them bickering and not getting along is alien and threatening to him.
Then however he meets Lea and Isa and realizes there is more to friendship than his limited knowledge allows him to understand, so he resolves to go out and make some more and other friends to learn about the different aspects friendhips can have, which eventually culminates in Neverland when he finally does realize the argument/falling out at Radiant Garden between him and Terra/Aqua was not the end of the world and can be fixed/remedied with some effort.

Alas, Xehanort and his doom plans got in the way so this plot had to be forcefully put on hold.

That convo is pretty cool. Apparently the first thing the group does is create the Spirits, which is interesting. Hopefully in Global they split up the cutscenes or something so that we don't wait to get our Pets. Given the dialog in the Chirithy scene that would be easy to split and just up the timetable on, and seeing the Leader scenes later could be explained as altered time or something.

Also, interesting how Marly wants to work with Blaine instead of doing fieldwork...I'm gonna try to piece together how this and every detail we get fits into whatever scheme Marly has. Methinks he wants to stay near that book to learn what he can from it. Pretty sure it's not one of the rulebooks Ava handed out or the BoP copy one of them has, so it's likely got some unique details not found elsewhere. As Marly was ever the mastermind, he'd enjoy learning all he can from it to use something from it later.

Personally, I never said that Terra and Aqua never showed traits of friendship of friendship, but rather, that Ephemer and Skuld are more encouraging towards Ventus than Terra and Aqua. Yeah, there's flashbacks of their bond, however, we barely see that sort of bond until the climax of the narrative. Terra and Ventus clearly have a brotherly relationship so I can understand where their conflicts of interest lies as they're just doing what they can to look out for each-other. Aqua on the other seems more parental than friend-like. Granted, there's the major age gap, but still. She can try to act more encouraging to him.



At least there's moments where Terra is appreciative of Ventus being around. The reason why Ventus was looking for new friends is because of Terra and Aqua were busy with their own adventures for him to really hang out with them at that period of time. The argument wasn't the cause as much as it was a contributor. Pretty sure that it was his interaction with Lea and Isa that encouraged him to seek new friends.



Personally, I never said that Aqua was a bad friend to Ventus, but rather, that Ephemer and Skuld seem to be more supportive friends. Nobody's dismissing Aqua's sacrifice, but outside of flashback, we've yet to see Aqua be this supportive to Ventus like Ephemer. Granted, you do bring up the point that we've just seen their relationship start, but this introductory glimpse is already proving that Ventus gets along with Ephemer and Skuld better than Terra and Aqua.



Of course, there's no issue with a singular character having multiple friendship groups. But the dynamics of Ventus' friendship's two group is drastically different to that of Sora's. Both Riku and Kairi and Donald and Goofy are playful with Sora and are complimentary to his personality. Ventus' relationship with Terra and Aqua is more familial whilst his relationship with Ephemer and Skuld seems to be more in line with the friendship trio's. At least in my opinion, Ventus fares far better in the latter in which the dynamic where he's seen as the equal.

I do realize it was the point, I honestly brought that up to bring up points about all 3 I guess. Like I feel like the conversation at the time was about Terra or Aqua's failings and I was bringing up how Ven messed up around that point of the game. I was happy that Ven developed out of his stuper for sure, but it still doesn't negate that at the time he was rude to Aqua and naive about Terra's situation and then let it get to his head for a bit.

I like that all 3 had flaws like this, I feel like, as I said before, it would have had more narrative impact if they found a way to show us them happy and getting along longer so that we got the full brunt of this argument/mistreatment of each other in their trying time. To be clear, I don't know if I think that Skuld and Ephemer are somehow more supportive of Ven or anything like others have posited. Like, they have known each other for a day. Not that I anticipate those 2 doing anything purposefully malicious, but tbh, they probably have character flaws as well that could end up messing up at some point.

I think he already had his own BoP. Considering MoM (and Yoko confirmed that the chaotic theme playing during Case of Luxu is MoM's leitmotif, safe to assume he is up to no good) give the Lost page to Gula and results in Gula over-anaylze and is cynical/condescending enough to not ask for any help, he would want to give the BoP to someone that will cause another mess by being cynical/condescending and over-analyze the book. Never it was stated that the copy of BoP the "lucky" Dandelion get did not include the Lost Page. The scene starts with Skuld, Ephemer, And Ven mesmerized by the Foreteller's meeting room, Blaine just casually strolled to the Master's desk and read the BoP as if he always had one, when Lauriam is on the back, watching the others. As many have mentioned, Blaine's familiarity with the BoP and the contrasting unfamiliarity with the Dandelion guide book is sketchy. Blaine sat on the Master of Master's seat, when Lauriam sat on Gula's seat, perhaps symbolize that Blaine was part of the previous generation of Foretellers like the Master is one generation above the Foretellers, and Lauriam sat on Gula's seat implying they have what the others didn't have -the entire BoP in Lauri's case and the Lost Page in Gula's.

Remember, Gula accepted Aced's alliance just to wait when he weakens and strike him down. What if Lauriam is merely doing the same to Blaine? and unlike Gula, he has some bases, which is Blaine's previous familiarity-unfamiliarity contrast to the books.

I figured that Brain sitting in that seat was actually to connect him to Ira. Showing he is the one most like Ira in the group being the thinker and researcher who actually seems to be doing the leading as he was the one who found and proposed their first task, and he is the one who keeps proposing questions about their stuff.

Ironically enough that's what yesterdays episode of South Park was all about, not all people know how to handle stressful situations, they wanted to protect him by bringing him home as ordered by their trusted master, the man who had raised them their entire lives (or the majority of it) to think that he always have the right answer.

No, Ira is just the leader. He tends to read his BoP a lot too, yes, but Gula seems to be even more science-inclined than Ira. The scene in back Cover where MoM made the first Chirithy shows Gula walked closer to examine it after MoM sait it's a spirit. He also mumbles about his own theory about the Lost Page the second he got it. I am getting Ienzo vibes from him...

Part of the fun about TAV is wanting to see them recover after their failures. An important plot point about them is that they failed the friendship test when it mattered most and they suffered for it before they had the chance to make up for it. To me, it's pretty clear they love and care for each other and the best part is that they f-ed up and ended up in a tragic situation. But that doesn't negate everything positive they've tried to do for one another prior to and after their mistakes.

The big payout with TAV is getting to see them finally stand united against Baldy because obviously, the plot of BbS since the secret movie at the end of KH2 destined them to fail at least once no matter what.