*Comes back from school and sees all the wonderful replies. Tries to not to smile too hard.*
Thank you for all the amazing replies, I'm so happy to see people talking about this!
*Gasp* A response from THAT user? I'm so honored!
Thank you for the compliment! And before I go on, I appreciate the difference in opinion. That's what forums are for!
I had a feeling you'd say exactly this. I never really went into Ven and Roxas' feelings very much cause, well.... 1) That's yet to be seen, and 2) I wanted everyone else's feelings regarding that. Guess I should have made that more clear in the OP.
I'm not really expecting any immediate shifting regarding Ventus' feelings since, as I said in a previous response, he is rather unbending (and for good enough reason). But strictly in terms of Vani, it's still important to understand that the subtext that comes with the word "brother" and the word "half" are still very different. One's less human I guess you can say. It doesn't necessarily have to be positive (certainly not at first anyways) for the game to still explore familial themes here. Me and my brother have a somewhat strained relationship where he constantly belittles me or we get into a fight, but we're still brothers, and we're never gonna go out of our way to deny that. Still, I understand that consent is important, but siblings are tied together by a fate (if you believe in that) out of their control, and it's a bond in origin that you simply can't break. Edit: After reading your other responses, I think I can understand how you feel (though I'm still standing by my overall thoughts). It's really just a matter of interpretation I guess, and I enjoyed yours. Thanks for the response!
Well, it is an interesting topic which involves multiple characters and
possible relationships so some debate around it can be expected.
Oi, hey, how flattering that I’ve already such a reputation, lol.
I concede the point that we’ve have seen less from Roxas’ and Ven’s side overall in terms of direct focus, but there is a base with from to work and make interpretations from given from the games at least concerning their direct “othersâ€.
With Roxas we see quite some of his feelings towards Sora throughout the course of KH 2 and how they evolve with some glimpses in DDD.
Ventus doesn’t have it that detailed, but we do know his stance towards Vanitas from the last third of BBS.
If we’re going to talk about relationships which always involve at least two characters, we do have to take into consideration the stances and feelings of both characters as well as the context of these with their actions and statements is all I am pointing out.
I certainly agree with the prospect of exploring additional themes, also in the negative spectrum to show how it shouldn’t be done, but I do not agree that one has to endure or stay in a bad and negative relationship just because some ominous bond weaved by “fateâ€exists. Real Life is full with different people who do not associate or speak in any way with other people even if they are blood-related. Family ties are indeed a different breed of connection, but there is no obligation that one has to maintain them and keep them intact on an interaction level.
As Ansem the Wise said in DDD, connections can be broken through different means and some may even be severed voluntary by some people.
It’s only partially personal feelings as try to not get any character bias in the way, but I do tend to go by already known facts of the narrative first and spin theories from there without jumping already into stuff I’d like to personally play out.
My point is not to paint Vanitas as someone we should empathize with or want redeemed due to his seeing Ventus as his brother. Not even close. That’s exactly the opposite of what I’m saying. The brotherhood of Sora and Roxas is on the opposite end of the spectrum from that of Ven and Vanitas. The intent seems to be that we should feel positive that Sora is feeling this bond with Roxas because we know that Sora wants what is best for Roxas. However, we should feel uncomfortable that Vanitas views Ventus as a brother because it has more malicious meaning, like a Cain and Abel scenario.
Again, just because we are recognizing that they are like brothers does not mean we want them to hold hands and be besties. I have noticed you tend to be understandably defensive of Ventus whenever the subject of his relationship with Vanitas comes up, but this relationship is the centerpoint of Ventus’ storyline outside of his friendship with Terra and Aqua. It’s not going to be written out of the story just because Ventus doesn’t like Vanitas when that is the primary source of tension and conflict in his personal subplot.
I’m not actually overlooking this part. In fact I think I already confirmed that I am in the same boat as you in this area, that Vanitas’ use of the word here is not something to be immediately viewed as something positive when looking at all the context surrounding it. Nothing more and nothing less.
Cain and Abel is perhaps a bit much as these were a pair of brothers which were raised together and liked each other at first. That’s more fitting for Eraqus and Xehanort. Vanitas and Ventus were raised apart from each other and never liked each other at all, with Vanitas hating Ven from the beginning and Ventus’ antipathy only growing the more time passed throughout BBS until it matched Van’s own.
I’d like to correct that as I’m not really “defensive†about Ventus as a character in this vein, but more about the fact that whenever this “topic†of the relationship with Vanitas comes up his part of the whole thing tends to be ignored or shoved to the wayside.
When I get truly “defensive†or biased of something that is worded much more directly and much more harsh I assure you.
Did you speak with Nomura or from where do you know that the relationship with Vanitas is the “centerpiece†of Ventus’ personal story/subplot? There are dozens of possible hooks and other plots to explore in regards to this character, including but not limited to the as very important advertised connection with Sora, the ties to the past era, his own ties to Xehanort and the morbid interest he seems to have and also possibly Roxas (which is also a possible discussion topic in this thread).
Not to forget that Ventus “not liking†Vanitas will have to be addressed and taken into consideration either way regardless of how important this whole subplot is going to because a relationship, even a forced one, has to involve all characters participating in it.
I guess in the end there are those who 1) believe a single word has meaning in this series always 2) don't believe a single word can have a meaning in this series always 3) do believe a single word can have a meaning only if it benefits their point of view.
Just on how many occasions did we center whole discussion around a single word or two in some dialogue of some character? Compared translations and voice acting and all that kind of stuff? Now a seemingly unredeemable antagonist uses a word he was never familiar with and we're going to dismiss the possibility of any kind of change from the "bad possessive psycho" image we painted him with? I appreciate the developed discussion but let's treat all characters equally.
Plus, this paragraph is @Sephy, in my reply I didn't think nor care about what Ventus thinks of the connection anymore or anything. I don't have interest in that at the moment, so I just specifically shared my thoughts on Vanitas. I want to allow both Vanitas and Ventus some space for different character development, not just the same simplistic "me good half you bad half we must fight" plot BBS delivered. And, I don't want to come across as offensive but I would like to ask you to control how defensive you get of Ventus just a little bit. :< it's happening pretty much... always, when Vanitas is mentioned
And yes I do want to see how past!Ventus, BBS!Ventus and current!Ventus can still be the same entity but share so many fragments of .. different lives tbh
I’m sorry but the first paragraph here comes over to me as exactly being defensive and biased towards a single character you accuse me of being in the second paragraph.
You’re welcome to give further examples but the last similar one I remember where we had discussions about a single word was Xemnas calling Aqua’s armor “friend†and we had the exact same debates about if that was genuine Terra-influence coming through or just Xehanort mockery.
And for a while (until DDD’s release) this was truly ambigious. Here, in this case, you’re clinging to that one word and
completely ignoring the whole context around it including what other parts of the current trailer and other KH III trailers show. That Vanitas’ behaviour and actions haven’t changed an inch from what we already know from BBS and pointing that out isn’t “dismissing any possibility of change†but pointing out that the context doesn’t point towards this already being a sign of such change.
I am treating all characters equally here as I am not getting “defensive†of Ventus, pointing out that when it comes to a
relationship all involved characters have to be taken into consideration is not getting defensive.
I'm afraid you are the one getting overly defensive about Vanitas and the possible positive interpretation you project on this single word, which is supported by the fact you admitting to not caring about Ventus at all in this case when it affects him just the same as Vanitas since it is about their forced bond and blending out the wider context because it doesn't support the positive head canon. I do care about Vanitas' role in this as well because I wouldn’t make the effort to go through all the trailers and appearances of him and collect those to put together the whole context of his statements (like i.e. calling Ventus insignificant) and actions (again trying to kill Aqua, threatening Sora) and after those I came to the same conclusion about what all this means as Kirabook and Alexis.anagram did so I’d appreciate not being called “defensiveâ€or biased when I am nothing of the sort.
If there would be more hints and implications that actually point towards the positive change you envision I would be more inclined towards your interpretation but when looking at everything together there simply isn't
as of yet.
My interpretations and observations are not hammered in stone and subject to change when new information gets available.
Allow both Vanitas and Ventus development outside of the already treaded paths from BBS is certainly a good thing but a) this doesn’t have to happen necessarily between them and b) the current status of their forced “relationship†cannot be ignored nor can the context which the trailers as a whole so far give us.
I am sorry that my observations and interpretations clash with yours and your head canon but I won’t sugarcoat anything or stop giving my opinion on the topic because I do care about context and all involved characters.
You haven’t yet experienced me when I am truly biased towards something.
Past!Ventus aka Ux-Ventus is a totally new thing so I am too interested how Nomura will weave this all together, but I'm not sure if there is much of a difference between BBS!Ventus and Current!Ventus aka DDD/KH 3 Ventus because there is no indicator yet that any significant change took place. The second time when Ven's heart got shattered at the end of BBS caused huge damage, but it wasn't like there was again a part stolen or removed.
I haven't taken Vanitas calling Ven brother as indication of him changing his attitude. The whole phrase put together is him just insulting Ven. He's bothered that his 'brother' is basically useless to him.
I'm not against the idea of Vanitas redemption, but I think the way they played up this trailer, Vanitas' words toward Ven are meant to be in contrast to Sora's feelings (possibly mutual feelings) toward Roxas. Vanitas to Ven is like a curse he wants to be rid of, where Roxas to Sora is someone he wants to reclaim and make whole. Vanitas' scene plays out in a sinister manner where we're all worried about Ven's safety, Sora's scene is seen as sad but hopeful that Roxas can return.
I've said it before in the past, but if Vanitas were to be redeemed, I don't think he's going to be on the side of light either. He's just going to be rogue. I can't imagine Ven or Vani ever being on good terms with each other even if they're the same person or Vanitas sees Ven as a 'brother'. Ven certainly doesn't see it that way, Sora is more of a brother to him than Vanitas will ever be.
I am fascinated by this brother thing mostly because of the Sora/Ven/Roxas dynamic, Vanitas only serves to prove they do all have a bond that goes beyond being enemies or friends (like, a literal bond/connection like blood) and that's about it. Calling someone your brother doesn't equate to fondness or affection. In contrast, Sora doesn't even need to say the actual world to understand that he sees Roxas as his brother.
Could be an ongoing theme too. We've also got Elsa and Anna, another sibling relationship coming up. Who knows.
Complete agreement, that’s literally the same conclusion I read from all available material as well.
Complete agreement yet again as I am not against an arc like that at all if it is well structured and presented, completely independent from the issue if in the end Ventus changes his stance and becomes forgiving or not. A redemption arc must come directly from the character who is in the wrong though and be pursued independently of the prospect of the character’s victims being forgiving. Such an arc is about the character themselves learning to cease doing bad and creating no more victims. If some of their former victims come around to forgive them that is an added bonus on top that comes entirely from every single victims own free decisions, not something the atoning character can expect or demand as a prize for their good behaviour.
I admit that the Sora/Ventus/Roxas triangle is something I had so far only on my radar on the periphery, but then I remembered it was said that both Sora and Ventus could be considered Roxas’ “true selves†so to see if there develops something between all three of them would be also a worthy endeavour.
I’ve already said it multiple times but I’m not getting tired of repeating it. The connection and bond between Sora and Ventus is actually the one that interests me most and where I hope gets certainly put some focus at, even more so than Sora and Roxas because on that relationship we already have a base.
Roxas and Ven as well as Roxas and Vanitas also has some interesting possible paths that could be taken because these characters had zero interaction so far.
Elsa and Anna are more like Sora and Roxas though than Ventus and Vanitas as I can't remember any true hatred between them, just some animosity which Roxas did have with Sora for a while.
Actually I honestly am looking forward to possible interactions with Roxas and Vanitas (despite Vani's face reveal to Sora will be the best thing as well as Roxas and Ven looking the same). They both have the more agressive personality of the two and both are sort of duds to a person. I feel that if anyone can get into Vanitas's head it would be Roxas. And there is the fact that their conversation can go in two completey different ways because they could end up both mistaking each other for someone else and hence causing one big confusion.
And as for vani's brother statement representing a contrast, I honestly never saw that from the trailer myself. I just saw it as something seperate and another sibling relationship, although currently not a healthy one considering Vani actually calls him the younger brother there. :/ The problem we have here is that game Vani is unfortunately a character that hasn't recieved much character development and has been quite neglected by Nomura in general until Kh3. He is still a very interesting character with a lot of potential, especially with all those questions I asked. But as of now we dont know much about him that cant be taken from light novel vanitas who I believe is the superior verson of the character (and is why he is a personal favourite of mine in all honestly). Hopefully now that he is going to be a major character in kh3 and have his whole arc with ven come to a close we will see some much needed character development.
However, as someone who doesn't care so much for Ven but has Vani as a favourite I do admit my view in this subject may be biased in that regard as im seeing the term 'brother' used as a form of hopeful character development from Vani's side of the relationship. I can see why someone who has an opposite view in that they are a fan of Ven but not a fan of Vani would not like this term being used. So I guess we just have to wait and see what happens in the game. :/
Yea, Roxas is certainly more on the aggressive side than both Sora and Ven and on top he has a similar background with Vanitas in terms of having worked quite some time for the villains.
The main difference is that while Roxas
worked for the villains, even at his worst he was never actually truly
villainous in behaviour and actions like Vanitas is, which may have to do with Xion and Axel being there as a sort of support system (however dysfunctional it might have been) and an unstrained connection with his primary “other†as while Roxas was resentful towards Sora (his full hate and wrath was directed at both the Organisation and DiZ) for a while it never went into outright hate as it is in Vanitas’ case nor did Roxas ever go out of his way to specifically hurt Sora.
If Vanitas really calls Ven “kyoudai†that doesn’t mean younger brother, it doesn’t even have to mean “brother†in a family context as “kyoudai†can also be translated as “mateâ€, “bro†or “friend†which can have both positive and negative meaning depending in which context it is said.
That the official KH narrative takes some plot points or character traits from the novels and expands on them has already happened so it isn’t impossible that some parts from this may be included in further development.
Until we have more information to go with though, at least I personally will stick to the material and context we already have available and in these I don’t see much of a difference in behaviour and action of the character compared to BBS times.
It’s less about the term being used in a positive manner but more about how it is placed into the whole picture and that, Vanitas fans may like it or not,
has to involve Ven and his stance on the matter as well as the general context all of this happens in.
I think that for Sora and Roxas the relationship will develop in a more or less straightforward manner, with the caveat being that while Roxas is intrinsically a part of Sora (and, arguably, vice versa), he really belongs with Xion and Axel, his "family" unit so to speak. In that sense, he and Sora may not develop or maintain such a close relationship as brothers, but something more akin to cousins... mm, but again, literalizing it for me kind of removes it from its purpose in the story, so it's almost better to me to think that their connection is unique and will endure regardless.
Vanitas is a more complicated matter. I can't say for sure whether or not he has the capacity to redeem himself, per se, but my gut says no. For one thing, he is pure darkness, so while his animosity towards and desire to co-opt Ven is driven by exigent circumstances his basic instinct so-to-speak would be to spread and consume regardless-- hence the natural manifestation of the Unversed derived from his strongest negative feelings. Unlike other characters, he can't really be turned to the light, and on top of that his personal identity and purpose is at stake in the struggle with Ven: the sense is that he has to (or feels he has to) incorporate Ven in order to actualize himself. This is tricky territory, though, because the series has presented a foundational view of the universe in which not only
can light and darkness coexist, but one in which they
must in order for true balance to be maintained. In that sense, to snuff out Vanitas because he is a creature of darkness would be somewhat hypocritical. He didn't choose the circumstances of his birth: but he is dangerous regardless. That's the dichotomy.
The ending I would envision for Vanitas at this stage would be something like this: I think that the Guardians, or perhaps Ventus himself, will find a way to sever the connection between him and Vanitas permanently (maybe that has something to do with Sora diving into Ven's heart?). And in the process they might reduce Vanitas to something like a shadow of Ventus. From there, perhaps he could be left to roam in the Realm of Darkness, where he actually belongs on some level... It seems right to me that he would end up there, anyway.
Basically, I believe that Ven and Vanitas will clash in KH3, but it will result in their total dismemberment from one another. What happens to Vanitas after that might just be up to Kingdom Hearts itself.
I've seen this mentioned a couple of times but I'm wondering if that's accurate? To my ear he refers to Ven as "kyoudai," which is an age-neutral term.
I dunno if the “X is intrinsically a part of Yâ€-reading can really be maintained throughout the whole cast when the whole “everyone and every
thing can develop their own unique heartâ€-reading points in exactly the opposite direction. Hearts having a close connection between each other can be interpreted of them being “part†of each other like Fantasia Mickey did in DDD with Sora’s and Riku’s hearts and the symphony they played, but that’s not in the vein of being
literal parts of the same source.
Ansem the Wise already hinted at it being possible and when looking at the long term issues I do think it is needed to have a way to permanently sever/break a connection and
not mending it back together when it comes i.e. to free hearts from Xehanort’s unhealthy influence or generally cut off connections which are bad for certain character’s mental wellbeing.
In this vein your idea of the Guardians (or Ventus personally) severing Vanitas’ connection to Ven would serve a similar purpose and on one hand free Ventus from the constant menace that Vanitas represents, yet I am not necessarily on board with the whole “reducing Vanitas to a mere shadow of Ventus†idea as Vanitas does have his own heart which is independent from Ventus and on the other hand this severing of a connection which is toxic no matter how you look at it could also harbor a chance for Vanitas to find a new purpose totally unrelated to Ven.
This is also a possibility that has to be taken into account, no doubt.
If the term used is really “kyoudai†it can have almost half a dozen different meanings depending on context.
I don't necessarily believe Vanitas is going to be redeemed the way you see it. Vanitas doesn't need Xehanort to 'become whole' if that's still his objective. There's no reason for him to stick to Xehanort's side other than the fact that he's probably norted and has no choice. In BbS, we already saw that his loyalty to Xehanort CAN waiver but that doesn't make him a good guy (he was going to go against Xehanort's orders.... because he wanted to kill Ven).
I also believe Vanitas has done some pretty horrible things not just to Ven, but also to Aqua (and a dash of Terra I guess). Within this own trailer, he was once again threatening Aqua's life exactly like he did in BbS just to get a reaction out of Ven. I cannot imagine Vanitas NOT being antagonistic towards them even if his ties to Xehanort are gone. I cannot imagine TAV and friends easily forgiving Vanitas and laughing together skipping down the yellow brick road.
We're lead to believe Vanitas is as bad as he is because of Xehanort's abuse, but Vanitas has ALWAYS been antagonist towards Ven, even when Ven couldn't do anything to defend himself and was nothing but a zombie. (pretty much exactly like the situation we're in now).
I don't think one word (brother) changes the entire situation, that's for sure. I don't think that was the purpose. At most, Vanitas has to admit Ven screwed him over. When Ven is an acting force, he's his equal. His jabs calling Ven insignificant and useless are just that, irrelevant jabs. They aren't true. Vanitas is the jealous bully on the playground all super salty that you pushed him back for once. (for example, the scene where Aqua beats him the first time in Radiant Garden. He almost sounds happy and excited that Aqua defeated him/ He still says some butthole stuff afterwards 'I'll keep you around' even though he just got beat)
Doesn't mean Vanitas has a new 'fondness' for Ven, doesn't mean he doesn't want to be whole again and recombine with Ven. Doesn't mean he doesn't want to hurt them (he obviously does). He's still the Vanitas we know from BbS. He might've gone from "This person is just the lesser half of me I can't wait to squish it once and for all" to "This person is literally another person that is permanently bound to me whether he likes it or not" but that's all we've seen so far.
As I stated before in my first comment, family has never been a thing for the original cast. We heard Sora's mom call for his dinner once and never again. We saw ghost Sora's dad rowing over to pic them up (aka, we didn't see Sora's dad at all). This is the first time we're seeing family brought up like this.
When Sora thinks of his brother, he fondly thinks about someone to depend on and then Roxas shines through. Sure, fans have pictured Sora and Roxas as brothers for years, but that's never been canon. It's never really been hinted at. Roxas just calls Sora a "good other" and that's it. This is a completely new development.
In contrast to them, the other pair (Ven and Vanitas) could also be considered 'brothers'. Like Sora and Roxas, they are technically the same person and yet they aren't. Sora comes to the conclusion that he and Roxas are like brothers... and so does Vanitas. But just because one is your brother doesn't make it a positive development or a tic towards Vani's redemption. The "change" is Sora has become more attached to Roxas in a positive way, Vanitas has become more attached to Ven in an antagonistic way.
So, while I do think Vanitas' redemption is possible, I don't think it has anything to do with this brother moment and I don't think that means he will join the light side. The original keyblade war had 5 sides, I don't think the suggestion that Vanitas will reach his own conclusions and become his own 'side' to fulfill his own goals, whatever they may be. What Vanitas currently wants (to reunite with Ven) is directly against what Ven wants so again, I believe their relationship is always going to be antagonistic and Vanitas' 'redemption' is not as simple as, "Yeah, I'm totes buddies with you guys now on the light side."
There is "development" in breaking free from an abusive dude and doing what he wants to do instead. Every nort that isn't destined to die with Xehanort is gonna go through something similar.
--------------------
I have rambled here, but in the end, what I want to say is I don't think Vanitas calling Ven his brother has made him any kinder, softer, or tender or anything of the sort. He's still an ass. At MOST, the use of brother could be similar to Sora to Roxas in which Vanitas now views Ven as an entirely different person, separate from himself. Vanitas' motives might have changed to where he doesn't want to combine with Ven, he just wants him up and about again so that they're a pair, like brothers.
I wouldn't call that redemption or even a positive development in Vani's favor because Ven wants nothing to do with Vanitas. Ven doesn't want to be on the dark side. Ven would probably rather sleep in that room forever than let himself fall in the hands of Xehanort or Vanitas.
Vanitas may develop, but I'm not convinced he's going to develop... toward the light side. I've theorized Vanitas is going to go 'rogue' by breaking off on his own side against Xehanort and the light side.
Full agreement.
Yep, that’s what I am pointing out the whole time as well. Making such a deal out of this single word isn’t very
convincing when all the other factors remain the same.
If any parts of the novels regarding Van’s backstory are transferred to actual game canon the observation that he is largely what he is due to Xehanort’s abuse and, ahem, “parenting skills†is something that cannot be denied, and yet that only serves as an
explanation as well as there being a possible way to redeem him somewhat.
It does not obligate
any of the characters he victimized, least of all Ventus or Aqua, to extend any sympathy or mercy towards him or be the characters that help him taking on a redemption arc,
especially if he continues this behaviour throughout most of KH III.
It is not a victim’s task to redeem their abuser, no matter if that abuser is themselves a victim from other circumstances.
Now if we talk about
other characters though there might be a chance, even if it just results in Vanitas becoming a sort of semi-neutral third party force which sides with neither the villains nor the heroes and his continued relationship with Ventus (if there even will be one considering alexis.anagrams theory about Ventus cementing the "I don't want to associate with you"-stance by severing their connection somehow) would be totally independent from that.
