Did anyone dislike Xion?

[*TwilightNight*]

I've grown not to trust Mary Sue Litmus Tests. Though it's fun to waste time on it.

And Smile, your reply will have to wait (mostly until I get my computer back and to finish getting to the parts in Days where I can properly answer. That's as far as I went)

If you're being serious, I think it's because it would almost be self-defeating.
You're garnering attention to a character you don't even like by doing so.

I think when "hate" is used, here at least (and for the most part), it doesn't mean people have some sort of vendetta against Xion (where they're willing to try and convince others of this hate), but that they don't care enough for her character for whatever reason.

It's more like "She wasn't a very great character, didn't do much for me, and don't care to advertise that" rather than "She made a negative impact on the series and I want others to be made aware of this."

That's actually more of what I feel . But I just really get the dislike vibes, instead of neutrality. And usually, when that happens, there's some club made around. And it's a good outlet, actually. Get those negative feelings out where others think the same. It's...therapeutic? >.>

I mean, it's not like it's going to hurt me or make me disappointed in any way. Because I'm more of the type that pretends Xion doesn't exist. "Meh", so to speak. It's just with the comments, you start to wonder. But whatever goes, goes.

The poor girl.

That's probably my main gripe about her in all cases that didn't make me attached. The forced sympathy/pity. I mean, with what I made it through so far in the game, is all:

*Xion faints, cue Roxas, Axel, or Riku saving/holding her in their arms*
*everyone is being mean to Xion, poor girl, just a tool, and she's having nightmares and moping about who she is*
*Xion faints, cue Roxa,s Axel, or Riku saving/holding her in their arms*
*more of that suffering and poor her scenes*
*Xion faints, cue Roxas, Axel, or Riku saving/holding her in their arms*
*More of the feel sorry for me vibes*

Then when you get to the character, it's just so typical. Nice, sweet, kind girl, who tries to do the right thing, and for the sake of everyone, and just this amazing angel. And this little pure soul is now dying. It just didn't interest me. Even Naminé was at least somewhat selfish in what she had done back in CO secretly (you can at least tell she wanted Sora, or a Sora, for herself, or what Kairi had. A friend, someone to care for her, due to all that loneliness. I don't blame her, but that's what makes her growth worth it), and she was incredibly meek. It never felt shoved in my face. Neither did Riku Replica, and I got his story just fine.

In Days, I'm just constantly rolling my eyes. I thought it was only going to be Riku, but once you get to the actual reality, and see that it's much worse than you expected...(with that, I kind of get where goldpanner comes from, with the "appeal". Though fangirls of guys are more possesive, but I have no idea how different reactions in Japan are)

I think that's the most defining Sue trait I've picked on, though.

 

[Goldpanner]

For what it's worth (which i know is nothing) I put Xion through a Mary Sue Litmus test and she only came out as a "Borderline Sue".

Yes, i was bored.

I tested her as a 'addition to an established series' and got a score of 193... 50+ was 'kill it dead'. The results might mean something if Nomura or Kanemaki did it themselves XD

 

[Audo]

Ooh, what test were you using? That one sounds like it would be far more accurate to mine, since mine was technically intended more for original characters in your own stories.

 

[Goldpanner]

This one: The Universal Mary-Sue Litmus Test

I counted her in this part:

Part 3 - Fan Characters & Newcomers
Only answer these questions if you are taking this test for a fan character (fiction or RPG) OR for a new character whom you plan to add to an established original series (consider the original cast as canon and the newcomer as a fan character).

But this test is still for OCs, really. Questions like 'did you base your character's looks off your own?' and 'is the character named something you'd name your own children?' are kind of hard to answer unless you are the one who wrote her (and probably don't work anyway!).

Also, I counted some novel stuff like the heavily implied Xigbar/Xion XD

 

[Smile]

I wonder what results we'd get if we ran it for almost any other character in the series.
Something tells me it wouldn't be all that different :\

 

[Goldpanner]

I did Roxas in the exact same way, as if he were a newly introduced OC into KH2--and he got 65 points. After Days he had 100 points. :/

Axel at the end of KHII got a 49, and so did Kairi, surprisingly. Sora got 81.

(I know these tests mean jack all. )

Oh yeah.

Why, in god's name, do they blame Xion? Days as a whole could've been written better, true. But dammit. Why is it so hard to accept that part of why it's a lacking game isn't Xion's existence, but how they had Roxas treat her?

The way they had Roxas treat her was because Xion was who she was. These are not two separate things. If Xion was not designed as a self-insertion opportunity, Roxas would not treat her the way he did.

The male leads of stories are always very nice to Sues, so people can pretend that the male leads are in love with them. Roxas is the male lead. Xion is a Sue. Roxas' behaviour is a symptom of having a Sue in the story.

Sues are poor plot devices. Therefore, the story of Days revolves almost entirely around a poor plot device. This is bad writing. Having Sues in your story is bad writing. Having a Sue BE THE ENTIRE STORY is TERRIBLE writing.

THIS is why the game is lacking.

 

[Smile]

The way they had Roxas treat her was because Xion was who she was. These are not two separate things. If Xion was not designed as a self-insertion opportunity, Roxas would not treat her the way he did.

I wonder, actually. He had the same kind of obsession for Xion as Kairi often has for Sora, and it includes not really taking into consideration the other side's wishes and needs. In that case it matters a lot less they did this for person A. That is to say - yes, they gave him someone to be like that over, but I doubt he'd have acted all that differently without her too. Xion being there was just an opportunity for Roxas to show that side of his character.

Roxas' behaviour is a symptom of having a Sue in the story.

:\ Sora and Riku never treated Kairi like that, is all I really have to say XD

Sues are poor plot devices. Therefore, the story of Days revolves almost entirely around a poor plot device. This is bad writing. Having Sues in your story is bad writing. Having a Sue BE THE ENTIRE STORY is TERRIBLE writing.

I'd sooner blame it on them creating the Organization in such a poor manner that when it came down to it, they couldn't hold on their own a game that was supposedly about them. Bad writing all around, yes, but on a much grander scale XD;

THIS is why the game is lacking.

I still don't see Xion's existence as being the biggest problem here. If anything she's the result of all the other flaws Nomura piled up when dealing with the Organization.

 

[Goldpanner]

I wonder, actually. He had the same kind of obsession for Xion as Kairi often has for Sora

Yeah, he had it--in Days. The writers chose to give him this personality specifically for this game. There were no inklings in KHII that he was anything like this, as I said. They hinted that his TWTN personality was created by Namine (probably as instructed by DiZ), and that his org self was cold and hard.

Why did they give him his obsessively caring personality in this game? To fit what they wanted to acheive with Xion. Because, Days is written badly.

:\ Sora and Riku never treated Kairi like that, is all I really have to say XD

Again, because Days is written badly.

I'd sooner blame it on them creating the Organization in such a poor manner that when it came down to it, they couldn't hold on their own a game that was supposedly about them. Bad writing all around, yes, but on a much grander scale XD;

What I really wanted was a game about the Organisation. I think it would have worked much better if they had done BbS first, got backstory out in the open, then made their org multiplayer game, and worked on fully fleshing out each character. As you said, why have 13 characters and then just turn them into scenery?

I still don't see Xion's existence as being the biggest problem here. If anything she's the result of all the other flaws Nomura piled up when dealing with the Organization.

Nope, I am sure it's the other way around. The concept of having a character for projecting came first, then flaws piled up as they realised they had to make the entire story about her or else she wouldn't be important enough to work. You can see that this is true when you ask yourself 'why would a writer do it like this? What were they trying to make us think and feel?' as you play each scene.

 

[Smile]

Nope, I am sure it's the other way around. The concept of having a character for projecting came first, then flaws piled up as they realised they had to make the entire story about her or else she wouldn't be important enough to work. You can see that this is true when you ask yourself 'why would a writer do it like this? What were they trying to make us think and feel?' as you play each scene.

Oh, I'm not doubting what they were aiming for with Xion. But the Organization's KH2 cast was to me badly written since they were introduced in KH2. So no, Days is not exclusively at fault for those flaws. As I said many, many times before - nothing truly stopped them from doing things with the rest of the Org in Days - but they chose instead to not even give us ice cream scenes on quite a few Days, or tried to get us to feel sorry for ROXAS (Stu much? and no, this IS his KH2 self at work here, being self centered to a fault) when he came to the balcony and neither Axel nor Xion were there. To me, more so than them aiming at basing RAX, it also comes to show the other way around - they're whoring out RAX because they have nothing else to offer. Sue or not, they NEEDED Xion to be in there because they couldn't be bothered with fleshing out the rest of the Organization.
Which leads me back to my #1 reason why I can like Xion while people like you and TN can't -
I didn't care squat for the KH2 cast of the Organization, so it didn't bother me they didn't get spot light, nor that Xion was brought in to "steal" it from them.

 

[Goldpanner]

But the Organization's KH2 cast was to me badly written since they were introduced in KH2. So no, Days is not exclusively at fault for those flaws.

When you say badly written, I don't really understand what you mean. Can you tell me specifically what it was about them that was badly written? Their underdevelopment?

As I said many, many times before - nothing truly stopped them from doing things with the rest of the Org in Days - but they chose instead to not even give us ice cream scenes on quite a few Days, or tried to get us to feel sorry for ROXAS (Stu much? and no, this IS his KH2 self at work here, being self centered to a fault) when he came to the balcony and neither Axel nor Xion were there.

They were stopped by their reluctance to bother with anything that didn't relate to Xion and her tragic tale.

Yep, Roxas was self centred. In KHII, he looked cold and driven and after the truth about himself. That would have made him an interesting character whose personality drove the plot. Instead of a boring Xion fanboy who had plot devices drive the plot.

(And by the way, I understand the definition of a Mary Sue as a perfect, loveable character designed for self-insertion. Roxas was simply an empty character designed to complement Xion; not really a Stu, just the token Sue-love-interest. The whole getting us to feel sorry for him thing was simply fail plot development.)

To me, more so than them aiming at basing RAX, it also comes to show the other way around - they're whoring out RAX because they have nothing else to offer.

Nothing else they can be bothered with working out how to offer to the target age group.

Sue or not, they NEEDED Xion to be in there because they couldn't be bothered with fleshing out the rest of the Organization.

And that is exactly why it was a bad idea to put Xion in there! They should have bothered. They should have left the Sue role out and made the effort.

Which leads me back to my #1 reason why I can like Xion while people like you and TN can't -
I didn't care squat for the KH2 cast of the Organization, so it didn't bother me they didn't get spot light, nor that Xion was brought in to "steal" it from them.

But you don't care that it's bad writing to leave them as flat undeveloped stereotypes? You don't care that it's bad writing to use a Sue? I care. I love this series, as stupid as that may be, and up until now I loved the storytelling. They made such a mistake with this game. I would rather the org multiplayer be a plotless brawler than this embarassing piece of crap story.

 

[Smile]

When you say badly written, I don't really understand what you mean. Can you tell me specifically what it was about them that was badly written? Their underdevelopment?

Mostly that, yes. So it's not like the Org being scenery characters is anything new.

They were stopped by their reluctance to bother with anything that didn't relate to Xion and her tragic tale.

Debatable to a fault. Did they not put it in because of Xion, or did they put Xion in because they had nothing else to put? Egg and chicken, really.

Yep, Roxas was self centred. In KHII, he looked cold and driven and after the truth about himself. That would have made him an interesting character whose personality drove the plot. Instead of a boring Xion fanboy who had plot devices drive the plot.

I don't know about that. I mean, the kid didn't become that until after the end of the year. He was a cute kid for a year long that would've kept being that way unless all the shit hit the fan. And they'd have needed a lot to get the shit to hit the fan with the Organization's prized Keybearer, especially without Xion to be in the picture.
And Roxas didn't really look all that cold and driven to me. Even after he regained his Memories and found his so called answers it was still all about him him him. TLTW Roxas was that perfectly. So it's not like that characterization of him in Days came out of nowhere.

(And by the way, I understand the definition of a Mary Sue as a perfect, loveable character designed for self-insertion. Roxas was simply an empty character designed to complement Xion; not really a Stu, just the token Sue-love-interest. The whole getting us to feel sorry for him thing was simply fail plot development.)

Arguable, again, especially since I never did see RokuShi all that much.

Nothing else they can be bothered with working out how to offer to the target age group.

I find that to be somewhat ironic seeing how the Organization was picked to be the group presented in Days because they weren't all peachy perfect Disney characters, so no one'd whiny about them attacking each other in multiplayer. They were picked because they're the 'villains'.

And that is exactly why it was a bad idea to put Xion in there! They should have bothered. They should have left the Sue role out and made the effort.

And I'm saying that they couldn't. It's like making water come out of a rock, it just doesn't happen unless you're Jesus or Moses or something. If the rock has no water to give to normal people - it wouldn't. And that's the hollow characters the KH2 Organization members are.

But you don't care that it's bad writing to leave them as flat undeveloped stereotypes?

Seeing how little screen time they received as compared to, say, Kairi? Not all that much, no. Scenery characters are scenery characters and deserve the appropriate amount of attention.

You don't care that it's bad writing to use a Sue?

Seeing how for the vast majority I don't consider her a Sue because of the quality I see in her character, as opposed to her plot placement? Not really, no. She could be the biggest Sue plot device ever - I'd still love the "person" Xion more than a lot of characters in the series.

They made such a mistake with this game.

They made a lot of mistakes up to this game. If this game had mistakes, again - it's the accumulation of everything up to this point. Days is a victim of a lot of stuff from KH2, to me.

EDIT:
You know what? Here's a thought.
If it wasn't for Xion fainting all the time, the one who would faint would be Roxas :\ since nothing would be keeping him from going through the motions of getting Sora's Memories. Because we saw what happened to him when those did connect to him.

And if you really want a character that was MADE to be sympathized with and go "oooh, so sad" over, then look at KH2 Roxas, ok? Because I'm sorry, as drama inducing as it was, I didn't get half as emotionally attached as I should've to him to really let the "looks like my summer vacation is over" line. Not after what could amount to 20 minutes of gameplay.

 

[Audo]

http://forums.khinsider.com/fanclubs/139942-xion-hate-club.html
Of relevancy.

 

[Aqua.]

They made a lot of mistakes up to this game. If this game had mistakes, again - it's the accumulation of everything up to this point. Days is a victim of a lot of stuff from KH2, to me.

Victim? If Days was and everything in it was so "great" as you say, and then you use Kh2 as an excuse for it's failure, then shouldn't Days have been a good game compared to Kh2?

And please tell me how exactly Kh2 is a failure. The gameplay might have been bad, but the plot wasn't bad. Compared to Days as well.

 

[Audo]

I found the plot of KH2 far worse than the gameplay... I thought everyone felt that way.

 

[Aqua.]

Well not me.

 

[Luap]

XION IS THE MOST POINTLESS CHARACTER IN KINGDOM HEARTS HISTORY!

She Did Nothing for the Series except make more questions. She was never even hinted at in the other games. When I first heard about Days I thought it was going to be Epic and like a small Civil war in the Organization of Roxas vs. Everyone else. That would of Been cool and an it would of made sense cause this Game answered why Roxas left the Organization. But No. They made Xion. A Crappy and Not Needed character. Unless they fit her into other games that makes sense I will always hate. The only good thing about days is the Battle System. The Story, just because of Xion, Sucked!​

 

[Audo]

She Did Nothing for the Series except make more questions.

This is how I feel about Ventus.

 

[rokudamia2]

hating fictional people is stupid.
What did they ever do to you?
As someone said theres no such thing as bad publicity.

 

[Azrael]

This is how I feel about Ventus.

He has a point and to say something, at least we saw Xion at least somewhat physically different than whoever we thought of her as.

 

[Goldpanner]

*i totally do not have the time for this D: typetypetype*

Mostly that, yes. So it's not like the Org being scenery characters is anything new.

Exactly! They were scenery in KHII, and I thought this game was going to be their time to be fleshed out. In KHII they were mysterious villain type characters (and even then, not the only villains in the game), so of course they were scenery. That was Sora's story. I thought Days was going to finally be the Org's story. Why did they end up scenery again in a game that should have been theirs?

Debatable to a fault. Did they not put it in because of Xion, or did they put Xion in because they had nothing else to put? Egg and chicken, really.

They put Xion in because she was easier to pull off and more appealing to the biggest portion of the target audience; kids who love the org and wish they could have been in it. Here ya go kiddies, a space for you!

I don't know about that. I mean, the kid didn't become that until after the end of the year. He was a cute kid for a year long that would've kept being that way unless all the shit hit the fan. And they'd have needed a lot to get the shit to hit the fan with the Organization's prized Keybearer, especially without Xion to be in the picture.

That's how it went down in Days--playing KHII, you have no clue that he was a cute kid for the whole year. I thought that him having no heart AND no memories of having one would make for one hard kid. And even if he did have to have emotions cause of Ven or whatever, he was under the illusion that he didn't. Emotions or not, he still would have been much more interesting if he was a little colder.

BUT that wouldn't work in a game targeted at children. They need their heroes to be good people that they can relate to. It's hard for children to relate to emotionles punks.

TLTW Roxas was that perfectly. So it's not like that characterization of him in Days came out of nowhere.

Do you mean the TLTW Roxas personality that DiZ said Namine shaped?

Arguable, again, especially since I never did see RokuShi all that much.

Ahh. Well I am a seasoned slash shipper, and dissecting interactions to judge all subtle nuances of romantic intention is second nature to me I need to find an off button for that.

I find that to be somewhat ironic seeing how the Organization was picked to be the group presented in Days because they weren't all peachy perfect Disney characters, so no one'd whiny about them attacking each other in multiplayer. They were picked because they're the 'villains'.

EXACTLY ;__________; They were meant to be my villains. My fleshed out, nasty villains. Roxas too. But they couldn't be bothered figuring out how to handle that properly when targeting it at children, and so instead just left most of them as villainy cardboard cutouts.

And I'm saying that they couldn't. It's like making water come out of a rock, it just doesn't happen unless you're Jesus or Moses or something. If the rock has no water to give to normal people - it wouldn't. And that's the hollow characters the KH2 Organization members are.

I agree that it was impossible. They couldn't have done it unless they a) made the game after BbS and b) changed the target audience (which probably means putting it on PSP instead of DS, but that would have been counterprodictive seeing as DS is probably better for multiplay).

Being impossible and all, it was a mistake to make this game at all. They made something horrible instead of either leaving it alone or planning it better.

Seeing how little screen time they received as compared to, say, Kairi? Not all that much, no. Scenery characters are scenery characters and deserve the appropriate amount of attention.

But Days should have been their game. They should not have been scenery characters in the only game that would ever have the chance to have them as main characters instead of villains.

Seeing how for the vast majority I don't consider her a Sue because of the quality I see in her character, as opposed to her plot placement? Not really, no. She could be the biggest Sue plot device ever - I'd still love the "person" Xion more than a lot of characters in the series.

In other words, you can't bring yourself to have a sweet, adorable little girl with a strong sense of friendship? Guess what--if she was real, I wouldn't either. But she's not real, and she was written to be like that for very bad reasons.

If it wasn't for Xion fainting all the time, the one who would faint would be Roxas :\ since nothing would be keeping him from going through the motions of getting Sora's Memories. Because we saw what happened to him when those did connect to him.

Going by the existing plot of Days, yes. But, someone somewhere decided that people had to faint when that happened. Why was it neccesary for someone to faint? Plot device. It never used to be set in stone that when people are affected by memories, they faint. If so, when Roxas finally remembered everything in the KHII prologue he should have fainted instead of getting a headache and screaming and smashing a computer.

And if you really want a character that was MADE to be sympathized with and go "oooh, so sad" over, then look at KH2 Roxas, ok? Because I'm sorry, as drama inducing as it was, I didn't get half as emotionally attached as I should've to him to really let the "looks like my summer vacation is over" line. Not after what could amount to 20 minutes of gameplay.

Yeah, he was. And do you kind of see how it can be boring? I don't know, sympathised a hell of a lot more with Roxas. He had his tragic story: everyone lied to him, he was used, he ended up losing everything... and I felt really sad. The KHII prologue made me cry (all those years ago ). BUT. Then he was gone, and Sora came back, and the game got on for real. Roxas was made to be sympathised with as a point--it makes us question whether the nobodies are really all that bad, whether Sora is doing the right thing, whether Yen Sid is telling the truth... it makes us think.

As for Xion, her tragic story was designed so that the pretty boy characters (not only us) would all worry over her and console her (so that fangirls could pretend to be in her shoes, or have proof that it is possible to be in that place). Her tragic story did not make us think anything outside of 'poor girl, Saix and Xemnas are assholes', when they were written as assholes for that exact reason. And, last but not least, her tragic story was the WHOLE GAME. It wasn't a short and sweet 20 minutes. It was the WHOLE GAME.

And I already felt sad for Roxas about the getting lied to, getting used and losing everything. It was massive dejavu trying to twinge those same heartstrings again.