Ephemera Skuld Ancestors (Family Ties/Themes in KH)

[Sephiroth0812]

Re: Ephemera Skuld Ancestors (Family Ties in KH)

I was thinking about writing a bigger response, but Master Spockanort basically already made every point I was going to make as well.
I also couldn't formulate it any better so there's no point in repeating it again in slightly different sentences.

I can only underline that post, thank you. ^__^

 

[Popsydoodles]

Re: Ephemera Skuld Ancestors (Family Ties in KH)

What's more, just about every recap or summary of the KH1 story or KH1 Riku that I've seen has made it a point to mention how Riku wanted to escape "the prison surrounded by water."

It's likely that he opened the Door without knowing or thinking of the consequences it would have. And he ran right into the darkness, leaving his friends behind. Too caught up in the prospect of getting away, I suppose. The cutscenes during the night DI fell to darkness indicated as much, anyways.

I guess I'm just not a fan of how it was done. I think I'm going to put some of this blame on BBS for having Riku make the vow to protect his friends when he was a child and Terra being totally willing to pass down the right to use such a powerful weapon to this same child. I mean c'mon. He's a CHILD. He's not smart enough to understand the importance of such a commitment. The worst part of all that being that the events don't tie in well given the events of KH1. You don't just forget an important pact you made with a total stranger like that. If only KH was planned with sequels in mind...

 

[Oracle Spockanort]

Re: Ephemera Skuld Ancestors (Family Ties in KH)

I guess I'm just not a fan of how it was done. I think I'm going to put some of this blame on BBS for having Riku make the vow to protect his friends when he was a child and Terra being totally willing to pass down the right to use such a powerful weapon to this same child.

Terra isn't a bright man, but he saw the potential in Riku in that moment before he decided to give Riku the Rite.

I mean c'mon. He's a CHILD. He's not smart enough to understand the importance of such a commitment.

Are we to now also underestimate the intelligence of children? Children are often more wise than adults due to their unclouded judgements of reality and people.

You don't just forget an important pact you made with a total stranger like that.

Yes you can. Childhood amnesia has been recoded as far as age 5. We do not remember much when we were children. Certain things stick, but we can often even forget the most important things. As it is, Riku does vaguely remember the promise he made as stated in KH3D.

In KH1, if we were to reason it, Riku didn't care at that point. His heart had been tainted by his selfish desires to leave the Islands. When you are blinded by desire and feel disillusioned like he did (i.e. feeling like he wasn't important to Sora and Kairi, that he'd never escape the Islands) you have tunnel vision for just that desire.

 

[Popsydoodles]

Re: Ephemera Skuld Ancestors (Family Ties in KH)

You are misconstruing their point. There are most definitely series that place a strong emphasis on friendship, but let's take Naruto for example. Despite being a series that focuses on bonds, it was loaded up with family relations. They even managed to make Naruto and Sasuke the reincarnation of two brothers who founded the ninja families. They also managed to push a lot of romantic pairings together at the end for the sake of creating children.

This follows for plenty of other shounen series which, despite focusing on friendship, most certainly do place some importance on family and romance and can often be the driving force for many of these stories. Even your typical JRPG will follow a formula with a main male hero, a female love interest, the male rival, and some family tragedy that forces the male hero into action.

Kingdom Hearts has managed to subvert the family aspect for 14 years. Why would they decide to change it now of all times?

Nomura isn't even really big on family. In the games he has worked on and has had some story input, you will often see how family relations are downplayed or subverted.

In FFVIII, we see a cast of orphans and Rinoa. Rinoa had her father, but he fades in importance pretty fast and then there is her late mother whose importance only serves to create a thin link between Rinoa and Squall by association. As for Squall, he had his adopted sister Ellone and then everybody and their dad knows that Laguna and Raine were Squall's parents. Despite that, the game never once says it and no character acknowledges the relation. It's intentionally left vague to show that the game was not trying to push family relations as an important aspect to how these characters were meant to connect to each other.

It was meant to show that their experiences were what truly directed the story.



People die for strangers everyday. Are we to invalidate their sacrifices?

As a fictional series, we are meant to suspend our disbelief in that these friendships are forever despite being brief. We see plenty of films and shows where people fall in love in a day and marry or die for a stranger they only just met. Why is this suddenly a hard pill to swallow?

In times of impending doom and uncertainty, friendships are forged rather quickly. One need only look at people who become friends during wartimes to see how this is very possible. Even in our own average day-to-day lives we can make friends in a day, but it is not a common affair. I know I made good friends with my long-time best friend in about a week of knowing her. It was like we were meant to be best friends.

I became fast friends with one of my other best friend after she jumped into my lap during a thunder storm. Friendships are how you define them. Placing limitations like "needing to know them a long time" to be considered friends for life is merely setting yourself up for disappointment. Friendships that have existed for a long time can just as easily deteriorate.



Think of all of the people out there with no family and only friends. Are we to also invalidate them?



But the series hasn't. We know they have family since they have been brought up in passing in KH1, CoM, and BBS, but the lack of importance placed on them for 14 years shows just how little this series think about family.



Again, you are misconstruing their point. They are saying Kingdom Hearts is about friendship, the family you make without being related to others. They said that in their posts. Nobody is denying that friends are often considered family but I think you are missing the point that while your friends can become like your family, they are not and that is the appeal.

We spend our daily lives surrounded by our families for better or worse, and then there are people who are not so lucky to have families. What about those people who only have friends to rely on? Why do we need to always show family in media?



Not really. Sora needed to learn how to be an independent person and learn the value of friendship. Prior to that he lived in the shadow of his friend and blinded to what struggles life could bring.



What? Sora was 14, not a child. Parents die or are out of their kids lives constantly and people live on just fine. "Mommy" can't be in somebody's life all of the time.



She was for all purposes dead. Destiny Islands was destroyed. Only Sora, Riku, and Kairi made it out of DI and everybody else was in a state of suspension. If the worlds had not been saved, they likely would have stayed that way or have died.



Not always.



Sure but if somebody's parent isn't around, friends are all you've got in the world. And sometimes a mom may not be loving.



Are we writing fic now?



Okay now I'm not sure where this has gone...

Naruto totally started off as a series solely about a boy with no friends, who then made friends, and then had his best friend join the darkside. Sound familiar? What happened to the series later only serves to prove the point that these same things have a high probability of being added into KH down the line.

Nomura isn't big on family? Wasn't FFXV initially his project? I remember there being some family stuff involved with that game.

FF8 all of these characters were already grown young adults, the time in your life when you're most likely spending time with your friends.

Sure strangers risk lives for total strangers but Ephemera barely did anything to warrant him being more than some guy who was already long gone. There would be no need to risk your life in his memory. Find me a real life person who would risk their own life for a dead man. And at that time in the story of X you are only just finding out about this impending doom. The friendship was apparently forged before all of that. And of course you're going to be friends with your allies in wartime, but Ephemera isn't even in your Union in the game. Not that this conflict is all that serious during this point in the story but still the immediate friendship is rather unlikely. You stated yourself that they are rare occurrences/uncommon.

You made friends with your life long friend after a week? I'd say that's a reasonable amount of time to form a friendship. Far more than what the player spends with Ephemera.

You think those people without their family don't wish they had them? You don't think an orphan might wonder where they came from? HIGHLY UNLIKELY I'd like to see you just walk up and leave your family and never speak to them again. You wouldn't give them up that easily just because you have friends with you. And no I'm not talking about people from broken homes because it's obvious that these characters in KH don't come from a broken home.

I'm not misconstruing their point. They said it themselves about friends being your chosen family. That doesn't have to mean they are your only family. It's not like you just get rid of your biologicals when you decide to make friends. No because more than likely you're friends with people in your family. Friends are just a way to make your circle of family bigger.

Sora already valued his friendships. If he didn't then he would have never set off looking for them. The story was more about being able to rely on good friends in your time of need. Something you could also do with your family.

I think most people would agree that 14 is still a child. I know I couldn't support myself at 14. And you know what happens to kids who lose their parents? If they're lucky they have other people step up and care for them. And once again they may grow up and be fine but I'm sure they still wish they had mommy. Am I right? In most cases I don't think I'd be wrong.

Sora's mom was a small what if scenario. I find it hard to believe you didn't get that. Why are you trying to find fault in everything I've said?

Not always? Seriously? That's what you have to say? Thats like saying a good friend wouldnt stick their neck out for you when you're in trouble. Not always. Then I guess KH would have never happened because you know... Not always. There was no need for you to try and contradict me there.

Sometimes a mom might not be loving... Please quit nitpicking.

No it's not a fan fic. It's a small what if scenario. nitpicking again

You mean to tell me your mom doesn't approve of you having a healthy relationship with a friend? I'm sure your parents are grateful that their kid has made good friends. I'm sure they wouldn't mind helping your friend if they approved of them. I know my friends' parents think of me as their sometimes son. They're cool like that.

Terra isn't a bright man, but he saw the potential in Riku in that moment before he decided to give Riku the Rite.

Are we to now also underestimate the intelligence of children? Children are often more wise than adults due to their unclouded judgements of reality and people.

Yes Terra. Trust the child to understand the importance of a world ending weapon especially when he will receive no guidance in its practices. He's totally mature enough.


I'd also like to say that I had no intention of this turning into a debate on whether are not family is needed. It was intended to be more like how would you like to see KH introduce/handle/manage blood family ties and relationships in KH.

 

[BlackOsprey]

Re: Ephemera Skuld Ancestors (Family Ties in KH)

I'd also like to say that I had no intention of this turning into a debate on whether are not family is needed. It was intended to be more like how would you like to see KH introduce/handle/manage blood family ties and relationships in KH.

Exactly like how friendship is handled, that's how. Meaningful relationships that wouldn't even need a bloodline to tie them together.

This is just a personal thing of mine, but I've always questioned the importance that stories often place upon blood relations. I've always hated the trope of a child inheriting some sort of stigma or legacy just because of who their parents or ancestors were, both in fiction and in real life, and I especially detest it in fiction because it usually is accompanied by some "destiny/fate" bullshit as well. (ex: Star Wars.)

The blood relation thing is a flimsy excuse of a thread to connect two characters together. What does it matter who you're related to if you don't have an actual bond between them? They're total strangers otherwise. A bond- a true, meaningful bond- is not formed just because your DNA happens to resemble someone else's.

Kingdom Hearts already places a very strong emphasis on the bonds between characters and has explored that theme thoroughly. Adding bloodlines honestly wouldn't add very much to this... it would be sidenote information, more than anything. "X character happens to be the [family member term] of this character." Superfluous at best, and a plain lazy way to "tell" a bond rather than "show" it at worst. The bond that could be shown between the two characters could probably be done without this extra information, especially in KH.

(Also, about the player risking their life for Ephemera... first, this is the player, not you. The player is not you, and he has his own ideals, beliefs, and ways of reacting to things. Ephemera left an impression on him. He considers Ephemera his friend. And then he's told that the Foretellers murdered him... Would you truly expect him to just shrug and walk away? Even ignoring the whole "made friends in a minute" thing, HE WAS JUST TOLD THAT THE FORETELLERS MURDERED A GUY. Who is just gonna walk away from that?)

 

[Oracle Spockanort]

Re: Ephemera Skuld Ancestors (Family Ties in KH)

Naruto totally started off as a series solely about a boy with no friends, who then made friends, and then had his best friend join the darkside. Sound familiar? What happened to the series later only serves to prove the point that these same things have a high probability of being added into KH down the line.

No friends and no family, and he made a pseudo-family with his friends but then family became a MAJOR plot point. My point is that Kingdom Hearts is not Naruto and many people felt all of the crazy family plot points introduced to Naruto only served to overload and bog down the original story which was once a simple story about friendship.

Nomura isn't big on family? Wasn't FFXV initially his project? I remember there being some family stuff involved with that game.

Yes, and there is focus on Noctis' dad but the rest of FFXV is about Noctis' relationship with his friends. It's a road trip with friends being friends.

But then we can look at TWEWY, a game where Nomura was creative producer and we can see how it is Neku's bonds with his new friends that shapes the game. Beat and Rhyme are siblings and their personal story is driven by that but the overall story focuses on the friendships Neku forms.

FF8 all of these characters were already grown young adults, the time in your life when you're most likely spending time with your friends.

They were 17 and only considered adults due to the fact that they were raised to be soldiers.

Sure strangers risk lives for total strangers but Ephemera barely did anything to warrant him being more than some guy who was already long gone. There would be no need to risk your life in his memory. Find me a real life person who would risk their own life for a dead man. And at that time in the story of X you are only just finding out about this impending doom. The friendship was apparently forged before all of that. And of course you're going to be friends with your allies in wartime, but Ephemera isn't even in your Union in the game. Not that this conflict is all that serious during this point in the story but still the immediate friendship is rather unlikely. You stated yourself that they are rare occurrences/uncommon.

But again, we are meant to suspend our disbelief that Ephemera and the player DO become friends regardless of any differences they may have had.

Despite being separate Unions, they were all fighting for the same goal. To gather light to stop the heartless (despite leading it to the world's end). I think fighting Heartless is a pretty risky job that provides a sense of constant impending doom.

And yes, I said they are rare in real life but we are talking about a video game where things move pretty fast.

You think those people without their family don't wish they had them? You don't think an orphan might wonder where they came from? HIGHLY UNLIKELY

Some don't, some do. Some of them have good support systems with the family they have made all on their own that was not their blood family and find happiness in that. Some people willingly leave their families for all sorts of reasons as well, and friendship will be their only support in those times.

So again, why should we invalidate those types of situations and relationships just to throw family into the picture?

I'd like to see you just walk up and leave your family and never speak to them again.

Well that certainly isn't hard at all.

You wouldn't give them up that easily just because you have friends with you.

If my friends were the closest thing to a family that I had, then sure I would.

You wouldn't give them up that easily just because you have friends with you. And no I'm not talking about people from broken homes because it's obvious that these characters in KH don't come from a broken home.

We do not know if they are from a healthy family or not, and even so it is not necessary to know to understand these characters nor is it necessary to focus on family when the series is primarily concerned with friendship on its own separated from the family unit.

I'm not misconstruing their point. They said it themselves about friends being your chosen family. That doesn't have to mean they are your only family. It's not like you just get rid of your biologicals when you decide to make friends. No because more than likely you're friends with people in your family. Friends are just a way to make your circle of family bigger.

I still don't think you get it, though. You are too focused on the point that friends can be family, which is true, but they are still their own part of your life that you choose to have that is separate from your biological family.

We are given our family at birth. We have to put effort into making friends and maintaining those friendships.

Sora already valued his friendships. If he didn't then he would have never set off looking for them. The story was more about being able to rely on good friends in your time of need. Something you could also do with your family.

Are we forgetting the events of Deep Jungle or Hollow Bastion when Sora finally states what he'd finally learned.

No, Sora did not value friendship at the start of KH1. Sora certainly cared about Riku and Kairi but he didn't know the true extent of what friendship really was. He was envious of Riku because he was never as strong or as cool as him and with Kairi he was unable to be truly honest with his feelings.

He was hesitant to meet strangers, but when he saw they were in need he couldn't help but jump in to protect them. As he traveled to different worlds, he saw how friendship could grow and how important it was to have them and finally came to the conclusion that friendship is powerful.

Relying on your family can be much different than your friends. And once you lose your parents or family, all you really do have are your friends.

This is feeling a bit circular...

I think most people would agree that 14 is still a child. I know I couldn't support myself at 14.

14 year olds are young, can act like children, and are not prepared for the world. They are not children cognitively nor biologically.

And you know what happens to kids who lose their parents? If they're lucky they have other people step up and care for them. And once again they may grow up and be fine but I'm sure they still wish they had mommy. Am I right? In most cases I don't think I'd be wrong.

Sure, but wishing and having are two different things. The fact remains that Sora doesn't have his mother around in these games and rather than lingering on the idea that he needed her, the gems focus on a situation where

1) Parents are not the primary focus or support of these characters
2) These characters are able to act independently

It's a coming-of-age story, as lengthy and contrived as it may be.

Sora's mom was a small what if scenario. I find it hard to believe you didn't get that. Why are you trying to find fault in everything I've said?

No, I'm playing devil's advocate to your statements.

Not always? Seriously? That's what you have to say? Thats like saying a good friend wouldnt stick their neck out for you when you're in trouble. Not always. Then I guess KH would have never happened because you know... Not always. There was no need for you to try and contradict me there.

Again, devil's advocate.

Sometimes a mom might not be loving... Please quit nitpicking.

Hey, you mentioned a loving mom. Moms aren't always loving. I was merely responding.

You mean to tell me your mom doesn't approve of you having a healthy relationship with a friend?

As long as they aren't using me for some means to an end, I don't think she cares too much about how healthy the friendship is.

I'm sure they wouldn't mind helping your friend if they approved of them.

Begrudgingly.

I know my friends' parents think of me as their sometimes son. They're cool like that.

So have my own friend's parents, but I was confused on how that related to the discussion xD

Yes Terra. Trust the child to understand the importance of a world ending weapon especially when he will receive no guidance in its practices. He's totally mature enough.

Terra clearly didn't think all that much about the ramifications, but he literally could see Riku's future before his eyes and knew he could trust his legacy with him. Aqua was about to do the same thing to Sora or Riku until she saw Terra passed a Keyblade on to Riku.

I know you weren't looking for a debate. I just like debating lol Nothing I said was meant to offend so I'm sorry if it did.

 

[Popsydoodles]

Re: Ephemera Skuld Ancestors (Family Ties in KH)

No friends and no family, and he made a pseudo-family with his friends but then family became a MAJOR plot point. My point is that Kingdom Hearts is not Naruto and many people felt all of the crazy family plot points introduced to Naruto only served to overload and bog down the original story which was once a simple story about friendship.

How long do you think KH can keep stretching the tale of friendship. What more can they do with it that hasn't already been done? Is that enough to base the next saga around while feeling fresh and new? Eventually it will have to move on to the next subject matter. Family is a nice next step to relate to the themes already present in KH being that the two subjects of friendship and family are so closely related themselves.

Yes, and there is focus on Noctis' dad but the rest of FFXV is about Noctis' relationship with his friends. It's a road trip with friends being friends.

But then we can look at TWEWY, a game where Nomura was creative producer and we can see how it is Neku's bonds with his new friends that shapes the game. Beat and Rhyme are siblings and their personal story is driven by that but the overall story focuses on the friendships Neku forms.

Nomura's views on friends isn't really important. It's his views on family that I want to see. What set's them apart from friends? How are they the same?

They were 17 and only considered adults due to the fact that they were raised to be soldiers.

Exactly. Young Adults. It's normal for them to spend little time with family so a whole journey with an absence of family is more believable. This ones going no where so lets drop it.

But again, we are meant to suspend our disbelief that Ephemera and the player DO become friends regardless of any differences they may have had.

Despite being separate Unions, they were all fighting for the same goal. To gather light to stop the heartless (despite leading it to the world's end). I think fighting Heartless is a pretty risky job that provides a sense of constant impending doom.

Going any further on this is a little pointless. It hardly adds to the main subject. My gripe with this was that it was a corny speech about a guy who you could barely call your friend.

And yes, I said they are rare in real life but we are talking about a video game where things move pretty fast.

I understand the limitation of video games but when the main story of X is mostly padding instead of events that could add to this friendship...I think you can see where I'm coming from. It wouldn't be too hard to have the player and Ephemera go on more than one outing together.

Some don't, some do. Some of them have good support systems with the family they have made all on their own that was not their blood family and find happiness in that. Some people willingly leave their families for all sorts of reasons as well, and friendship will be their only support in those times.

So again, why should we invalidate those types of situations and relationships just to throw family into the picture?

I'm sure they go through some soul searching before they come to a conclusion that they are happy not knowing their origins. It doesn't subtract from them wanting to know in the first place.
Some people willingly leave their friends for all sorts of reasons as well, and family will be their only support in those times. This argument is easily reversible.

No one is invalidating those situations. KH doesn't really even touch on the subjects of not having family. You're looking for a way to invalidate.

Well that certainly isn't hard at all.

Let's try one of your arguments...For some people...

If my friends were the closest thing to a family that I had, then sure I would.

It's cool that you don't let your blood relations hold you back from being with those who you deem to be your true family. That could be a cool theme for KH to explore with new original characters. WINK

We do not know if they are from a healthy family or not, and even so it is not necessary to know to understand these characters nor is it necessary to focus on family when the series is primarily concerned with friendship on its own separated from the family unit.

You commented earlier about people who only had friends to rely on. That doesn't hold true for Sora who had his mom back home but like stated the focus of the story drove away from relying on "family". The story could have worked a supportive mother role but it didn't end up that way. This point won't go any further and it isnt really the main concern so let's drop this one too.

I still don't think you get it, though. You are too focused on the point that friends can be family, which is true, but they are still their own part of your life that you choose to have that is separate from your biological family.

We are given our family at birth. We have to put effort into making friends and maintaining those friendships.

No. I get it, but that doesn't stop your family from being your friends too. There's nothing that says they can't. Just because they are blood related doesn't change the friendship. Or does it?

Are you implying that maintaining a healthy family relationship can't be just as much work as keeping friends just because it was given to us?

Are we forgetting the events of Deep Jungle or Hollow Bastion when Sora finally states what he'd finally learned.

No, Sora did not value friendship at the start of KH1. Sora certainly cared about Riku and Kairi but he didn't know the true extent of what friendship really was. He was envious of Riku because he was never as strong or as cool as him and with Kairi he was unable to be truly honest with his feelings.

He was hesitant to meet strangers, but when he saw they were in need he couldn't help but jump in to protect them. As he traveled to different worlds, he saw how friendship could grow and how important it was to have them and finally came to the conclusion that friendship is powerful.

Not knowing the extent of friendship and valuing friendship are two different things. If anything, Sora realized his friendships were more valuable than he initially thought because of the extent of friendship, not that he never valued them.

Relying on your family can be much different than your friends. And once you lose your parents or family, all you really do have are your friends.

This is feeling a bit circular...

Relying on your friends can be much different than your family. And once you lose your friends, all you really do have are your family.

If it feels circular it's because these relationships can be so similar, but there are differences. I'd like KH to explore them.

14 year olds are young, can act like children, and are not prepared for the world. They are not children cognitively nor biologically.

Child: a young human being below the age of puberty or below the legal age of majority.

an immature or irresponsible person.

Most 14 yr olds fit the bill. And before you can say "some don't," most do. Again, this point is moot so lets drop it.

Sure, but wishing and having are two different things. The fact remains that Sora doesn't have his mother around in these games and rather than lingering on the idea that he needed her, the gems focus on a situation where

1) Parents are not the primary focus or support of these characters
2) These characters are able to act independently

It's a coming-of-age story, as lengthy and contrived as it may be.

Again, they believably could have been, but in the end my point isn't that the game is terrible for not including his Mom. The main point is adding themes that deal with family relations and what that means to people. What does it mean to be family? Do you have to be blood related? The answers are obvious but I'd still like KH to explore them.

A coming-of-age story doesn't have to remove family from the plot to be a coming of age story. Its possible the next saga may still be a continuation of Sora's coming of age. He still has plenty of lessons to learn, not that they have to be based around his family, but maybe learning from someone elses.

No, I'm playing devil's advocate to your statements.

nitpicking: looking for small or unimportant errors or faults, especially in order to criticize unnecessarily.

fussy fault-finding.

While you may have felt it was playing devils advocate, it was more like nitpicking.

Again, devil's advocate.

Again, more like nitpicking. You weren't trying to further the discussion.

Hey, you mentioned a loving mom. Moms aren't always loving. I was merely responding.

Nitpicking lol The very definition.

As long as they aren't using me for some means to an end, I don't think she cares too much about how healthy the friendship is.

Are you purposely making yourself seemed detached from your family for the sake of your agrument?

Begrudgingly.

Sarcasm?

So have my own friend's parents, but I was confused on how that related to the discussion xD

Do you know what I meant now?

Terra clearly didn't think all that much about the ramifications, but he literally could see Riku's future before his eyes and knew he could trust his legacy with him. Aqua was about to do the same thing to Sora or Riku until she saw Terra passed a Keyblade on to Riku.

Eh. I get where the story was trying to go. Just not handled well in my opinion.

I know you weren't looking for a debate. I just like debating lol Nothing I said was meant to offend so I'm sorry if it did.

Not offended. All is fun and friendship here on the KH forums, but never family... apparently we don't want that... lol

 

[Audo]

Re: Ephemera Skuld Ancestors (Family Ties in KH)

I honestly can't believe you guys feel like a friendship focused story isn't just as "cliche" or "overdone" as anything with family trials or romance. Are you kidding me? You don't get more cliche than KH and I'd say they've all been done plenty before on an equal level making that such a super sorry argument.

Well you'd be wrong.

But okay.

(Also, even if we accept what you're saying as true, why would you then want KH to become EVEN MORE cliché by adding family?)

It literally is the basic theme of most shonen anime/manga which I'm sure is a popular medium on a KH forum. Don't pretend like you haven't seen plenty of anime or played other JRPGs where friendship is the main premise or strong focus.

We're not denying that there are other stories that focus on friendship lol. We're saying that in the grand scheme of things, stories, especially in games, that place friendship as the most important thing are rarer and less commonplace than stories that do that with family and romance. We're looking at the entire medium here, especially with games that are popular in the West where the attitude of family/romance being the end all say all are far more prevalent.

Yeah KH gets that "cringey" with it's friendships sometimes.

Friendship being important seems to be a personal issue with you, which is fine, but don't expect all of us to share that sentiment.

Example being that speech the player character gives towards the end of X about Ephemera. You mean to tell me you're going to risk your life for a guy you barely know or spent any time with claiming he's a worthy lifelong friend? Get real. Friendships like that aren't forged in a couple of minutes spent together.

I haven't been following X super closely, but I think it's established that the Player Character feels like he makes no meangingful bonds with anyone. That he's always on the outside, that he's never really had anyone in his life. You can see this in the last mission in the NA version where Snow White and the Dwarves are celebrating and the PC character is outside, looking in, feeling distant from them. But then, all of the sudden, he meets this boy and they connect, and they have purpose, and for once he feels that void starting to fill, only for Ephemera to vanish again. Now he's left all alone. Maybe it is too quick by most people's standards, but for someone whose only real bond was that person -- and who they now suspect something bad may have happened -- you'd be surprised how much they could mean. Skuld's story with Ephemera is similar. She had no one, but then she had him. And that was crucial.

Sure friends are the family you choose to have, but that doesn't mean you don't have a need for ACTUAL family. The story doesn't even need to introduce a conflict in family of any kind

Can I ask why this is so important to you?

but it can't just go and ignore the subject of blood family all together either.

The series managed to do just fine not making blood family important with the first eight games. I sure never felt like we were missing out on anything worthwhile.

Let me ask you guys this. What do we usually compare friendships to? If you didn't say family you're probably lying to yourself. You got your best bud that has stuck with you thick and thin? Man, he's like a BROTHER to me. It's you and your gal pal walking down the halls struttin your stuff, workin it? We're like SISTERS.

You're kind of just illustrating my point that family is put on a hierarchy above friendship. You know why people compare their close friendships to family? Because family is taught as being more important and having stronger bonds than those made by choice. That's a big part of why people compare their close friendships to being "like family" because it's trying to legitimize it like that. They recognize the strength of the feelings they have for this person, but everything says that friendships are the least important, so they have to compare it to being like family as a way of expressing this strong bond.

Sure these relationships can be that good that it seems like "Well who needs real family?" Let me answer that. You do. Just as much as you need real friends. Why? Because family are also friends just like friends can be family. It doesn't have to be one or the other. Introducing family ties can easily help strengthen the message of friendship and what it actually means to be "family" if that's what good friendships strive to be.

Again, why is this so important to you? You can turn anywhere to find stories about the strength of family. Why does it have to be in KH?

Just imagine if Sora's mom was somewhat active in the plot of KH1. It would have been a nice little touch. A little boy can't handle the stress of darkness without some help from his mommy. It's unrealistic to even think that he could. She could have been there in Traverse Town after the fall of Destiny Island giving Sora motherly advice whenever things got too heavy. Moms love giving advice and usually give the best. Sure having your new Disney friends support is nice, but nothing beats that familiar face of a loving mother. Heck. Maybe at some point she gets captured by Riku in an attempt by him to break Sora's will and she ends up giving HIM advice. Good moms are like that. They love your best friends too.

All of your examples of potential implementation are kind of terrible. I shouldn't have to point out that KH1 is a coming of age story, meaning, you can't have the mom character be there to give loving advice and make venturing out into your own less scary and daunting. Turning the mom into another damsel in distress is even more bleh.

I guess I'm just not a fan of how it was done. I think I'm going to put some of this blame on BBS for having Riku make the vow to protect his friends when he was a child and Terra being totally willing to pass down the right to use such a powerful weapon to this same child. I mean c'mon. He's a CHILD. He's not smart enough to understand the importance of such a commitment.

Nothing Terra did guaranteed that the Keyblade would go to Riku. Riku still had to prove himself for a Keyblade to choose him. It's not like Terra was literally giving the Keyblade to a five year old. The fact that the Keyblade doesn't even stir for Sora/Riku until ten years later shows that. But yeah, Terra didn't think it that far, but it's also part of the culture in which he is raised. Aqua almost gets that the Keyblade is a heavy burden -- "One Keyblade is enough for any friendship" -- but she doesn't stop to think that maybe the Keyblade shouldn't be passed down at all because that's how she was taught.

The worst part of all that being that the events don't tie in well given the events of KH1. You don't just forget an important pact you made with a total stranger like that. If only KH was planned with sequels in mind...

The series makes it pretty clear that Riku never forgot about Terra, and that fact still meshes fine with KH1.

Naruto totally started off as a series solely about a boy with no friends, who then made friends, and then had his best friend join the darkside. Sound familiar? What happened to the series later only serves to prove the point that these same things have a high probability of being added into KH down the line.

And most people consider that having greatly harmed the series. So it's not exactly a great example.

 

[Popsydoodles]

Re: Ephemera Skuld Ancestors (Family Ties in KH)

Well you'd be wrong.

But okay.

(Also, even if we accept what you're saying as true, why would you then want KH to become EVEN MORE cliché by adding family?)

KH so far is a typical shonen through and through. It's all been done before.

Not cliche. More diverse. Even if its only a little. It'd be cliche if it continued the same plot for the rest of the series.

We're not denying that there are other stories that focus on friendship lol. We're saying that in the grand scheme of things, stories, especially in games, that place friendship as the most important thing are rarer and less commonplace than stories that do that with family and romance. We're looking at the entire medium here, especially with games that are popular in the West where the attitude of family/romance being the end all say all are far more prevalent.

If you want a game that focuses on friendships it's obvious you go Japanese. They're not hard to find. What the West produces is clearly geared toward the COD mindset.

Friendship being important seems to be a personal issue with you, which is fine, but don't expect all of us to share that sentiment.

I'm all for the themes of friendship. I just know they can't keep doing it forever without it becoming stale. They're going to have to mix it up to keep the majority of the audience interested, not just the hardcore fanbase present in the forums.

I haven't been following X super closely, but I think it's established that the Player Character feels like he makes no meangingful bonds with anyone. That he's always on the outside, that he's never really had anyone in his life. You can see this in the last mission in the NA version where Snow White and the Dwarves are celebrating and the PC character is outside, looking in, feeling distant from them. But then, all of the sudden, he meets this boy and they connect, and they have purpose, and for once he feels that void starting to fill, only for Ephemera to vanish again. Now he's left all alone. Maybe it is too quick by most people's standards, but for someone whose only real bond was that person -- and who they now suspect something bad may have happened -- you'd be surprised how much they could mean. Skuld's story with Ephemera is similar. She had no one, but then she had him. And that was crucial.

Actually I seem to have forgotten the events of X. In X its the PC who first lifts Ephemera to his feet after Ephemera had taken out one of the those "invisible?" heartless. From There they go on an errand together. The next day they go on another run together, this time Ephemera saves the PC. I guess they do interact more than I thought. I seem to only remember them having a small chat at the fountain. My mistake. Skuld's story on the other hand was definitely on the corny side for me. It basically was supposed to mirror the PC when they start playing the game. I found it to be funny rather than touching.

Can I ask why this is so important to you?

I don't want to play the next games and experience the same story with different antagonists.

The series managed to do just fine not making blood family important with the first eight games. I sure never felt like we were missing out on anything worthwhile.

Maybe you haven't yet but I've seen this same tale of friendship plenty of times. I've also seen plenty of other tales of romance and family and like too. I still would like to see how KH would handle some other themes besides just friendship. For the sake of the thread I've stayed on family but it could venture in other directions too.

You're kind of just illustrating my point that family is put on a hierarchy above friendship. You know why people compare their close friendships to family? Because family is taught as being more important and having stronger bonds than those made by choice. That's a big part of why people compare their close friendships to being "like family" because it's trying to legitimize it like that. They recognize the strength of the feelings they have for this person, but everything says that friendships are the least important, so they have to compare it to being like family as a way of expressing this strong bond.

I've always been taught that both share equal importance. You need your family when you don't have your friends and vice versa. You need your friends when you can't go to your family.

Again, why is this so important to you? You can turn anywhere to find stories about the strength of family. Why does it have to be in KH?

It doesn't HAVE to be. I'd like it to be. I think that KH being also a Disney franchise could tell a nice endearing tale. I'm no writer so maybe I can't convince you with a quickly written what if and I'm not going to try since the peeps on this forum don't really care for the idea.

All of your examples of potential implementation are kind of terrible. I shouldn't have to point out that KH1 is a coming of age story, meaning, you can't have the mom character be there to give loving advice and make venturing out into your own less scary and daunting. Turning the mom into another damsel in distress is even more bleh.

A coming of age doesn't have to have a total absence of parents. I see why most do but its not a requirement. Don't take that what-if so seriously. Those were all spur of the moment thoughts with little preparation. They weren't meant to hold up against criticisms lol. One idea I presented was also straight from FEFates a game that has been received well over all. I haven't played it myself but it can't be that bad of an idea if most people seem to like it.

Nothing Terra did guaranteed that the Keyblade would go to Riku. Riku still had to prove himself for a Keyblade to choose him. It's not like Terra was literally giving the Keyblade to a five year old. The fact that the Keyblade doesn't even stir for Sora/Riku until ten years later shows that. But yeah, Terra didn't think it that far, but it's also part of the culture in which he is raised. Aqua almost gets that the Keyblade is a heavy burden -- "One Keyblade is enough for any friendship" -- but she doesn't stop to think that maybe the Keyblade shouldn't be passed down at all because that's how she was taught.

Terra's ritual absolutely guaranteed Riku a keyblade. If Riku had a strong enough heart at the time and Sora wasn't around things could have turned out bad.

I'm sure if there was a need for the keyblade when they were children it would have manifested to protect them like Terra and Ventus' did in the realm of darkness for Aqua. Its lucky for Riku that TAV were able to halt Xehanort because I'm sure he would have taken interest in Riku much sooner. Terra unknowingly painted a target on that boy.

The series makes it pretty clear that Riku never forgot about Terra, and that fact still meshes fine with KH1.

You already know my opinion on this. I respect yours.

And most people consider that having greatly harmed the series. So it's not exactly a great example.

And yet somehow it managed to keep a large faithful fanbase and push out like 20 games and like 10 movies.

 

[BlackOsprey]

Re: Ephemera Skuld Ancestors (Family Ties in KH)

KH so far is a typical shonen through and through. It's all been done before.

Not cliche. More diverse. Even if its only a little. It'd be cliche if it continued the same plot for the rest of the series.

Last I checked, just because many stories in the same genre share a certain cliché doesn't mean that ALL stories in that genre must have it too. :I
KH isn't what I'd call "typical shounen," excluding II.

If you want a game that focuses on friendships it's obvious you go Japanese. They're not hard to find. What the West produces is clearly geared toward the COD mindset.

The fun little twist with KH is that while it's a Japanese game, it's mostly made up of VERY western properties.
Also, do you have evidence to back that statement up, or are you assuming this?

I'm all for the themes of friendship. I just know they can't keep doing it forever without it becoming stale. They're going to have to mix it up to keep the majority of the audience interested, not just the hardcore fanbase present in the forums.

The family thing is just adding some extra information to what would already count as a KH-level friendship bond. Doesn't really change much at all.

I don't want to play the next games and experience the same story with different antagonists.

The story's pushed along by a lot more than relationships, you know. Usually has something to do with some nutjob unleashing magic darkness zombies on all of existence or something.

For the sake of the thread I've stayed on family but it could venture in other directions too.

Such as? I'm curious. .-.

A coming of age doesn't have to have a total absence of parents. I see why most do but its not a requirement.

A story about bonds between people doesn't always focus on blood relations. I see why many do but it's not a requirement.

 

[Audo]

Re: Ephemera Skuld Ancestors (Family Ties in KH)

Skuld's story on the other hand was definitely on the corny side for me. It basically was supposed to mirror the PC when they start playing the game. I found it to be funny rather than touching.

Out of everything you said, this bit bothered me the most for some reason.

I loved Skuld's story about how she met Ephemera. I liked how it tied into the gameplay (the Party mechanic). I liked how it helped make it feel like you could almost think that Skuld and Ephemera are just other player characters. But most of all, I kind of just liked how understated it was. How, you know, they didn't meet and become friends (and fall out of it) through huge dramatic plot-y ways. But rather it was all just simple and human. The longing expressed in it, idk. I found it relatable and touching and subtle. I thought it was well done in a series that so often paints with such broad strokes. And hearing it dismissed so simply like that was just, bleh.

So, yeah, I'm bowing out of this thread. Have fun pining for blood relations to rear their melodramatic heads in this series. I'm not going to waste my time on this anymore.

 

[Popsydoodles]

Re: Ephemera Skuld Ancestors (Family Ties in KH)

The fun little twist with KH is that while it's a Japanese game, it's mostly made up of VERY western properties.
Also, do you have evidence to back that statement up, or are you assuming this?

Western properties handled by a Japanese development team.

Have you seen the games that get the most advertising? COD,Battlefield,Assassins Creed,Destiny,Tom Clancy,Far Cry,Uncharted,GTA etc... All are simple action heavy killing games. I didn't think I'd have to back that up...

The family thing is just adding some extra information to what would already count as a KH-level friendship bond. Doesn't really change much at all.

Not if you added an entire group of new characters that are blood related and pit them against Sora's family of friends. Then whose related to who matters. That would be testing the bonds of friendship vs family and seeing how the two are similar and different. I don't really care if they added anymore actual family to existing characters. I think it'd be cool if they did though sometime later. (like parents for our trio, although we know Kairi's grandma)

The story's pushed along by a lot more than relationships, you know. Usually has something to do with some nutjob unleashing magic darkness zombies on all of existence or something.

Such as? I'm curious. .-.

My next thread will be answering that.(kinda. I think?) It won't be as debate heavy I hope. I really do prefer to keep it light.

A story about bonds between people doesn't always focus on blood relations. I see why many do but it's not a requirement.

If KH can keep everything solely about friendship for its entirety, I will be amazed lol.

Out of everything you said, this bit bothered me the most for some reason.

I loved Skuld's story about how she met Ephemera. I liked how it tied into the gameplay (the Party mechanic). I liked how it helped make it feel like you could almost think that Skuld and Ephemera are just other player characters. But most of all, I kind of just liked how understated it was. How, you know, they didn't meet and become friends (and fall out of it) through huge dramatic plot-y ways. But rather it was all just simple and human. The longing expressed in it, idk. I found it relatable and touching and subtle. I thought it was well done in a series that so often paints with such broad strokes. And hearing it dismissed so simply like that was just, bleh.

So, yeah, I'm bowing out of this thread. Have fun pining for blood relations to rear their melodramatic heads in this series. I'm not going to waste my time on this anymore.

I'm sorry if this offended you. I guess I didn't really think about the people who have made real lasting friends this way. It was a bit insensitive. In my defense I've never had a need to make friends through the internet or online gaming, so the thought never crossed my mind. Once again, I sincerely apologize for any offence.

I will be starting a new thread to discuss themes on a broader level. It will hopefully be less debatey lol. (and hopefully I won't offend anyone...) I would probably close this one but I don't know how.

 

[Alpha Baymax]

Here an alternate thought, what if Ephemera and Skuld gave birth to Braig instead? It could give credence as to why he's intrigued by Xehanort's cause and was openly willing to be a vessel for him?

 

[Muke]

what if Ephemera and Skuld gave birth to Braig instead

no .

 

[Squood!]

no .

Agreed . That would just be crazy.

 

[ultima-demi]

I just don't like the idea of family ties at all in kh.

 

[BlackOsprey]

Here an alternate thought, what if Ephemera and Skuld gave birth to Braig instead? It could give credence as to why he's intrigued by Xehanort's cause and was openly willing to be a vessel for him?

No, it really doesn't.

 

[Alpha Baymax]

No, it really doesn't.

I'm not saying that family ties should happen, I'm just saying that if it "hypothetically" were to happen, it gives depth towards Braig's intentions. Ephemera and Skuld aren't exactly "heroes" (nor villains). They are both heavily involved with the Keyblade War and we don't really know what purpose they have in the grand scheme of things right now. And then we have Braig: why he is interested in tagging along with Xehanort? what's his benefit outside "Wielding a Keyblade?". There's other means of getting a Keyblade.

Again, I stress: I am ambivalent toward family ties. If it turns out that Skuld and Ephemera have no family ties then I'm cool with that. It was just an idea I proposed.

 

[Neyan]

I'm not saying that family ties should happen, I'm just saying that if it "hypothetically" were to happen, it gives depth towards Braig's intentions. Ephemera and Skuld aren't exactly "heroes" (nor villains). They are both heavily involved with the Keyblade War and we don't really know what purpose they have in the grand scheme of things right now. And then we have Braig: why he is interested in tagging along with Xehanort? what's his benefit outside "Wielding a Keyblade?". There's other means of getting a Keyblade.

While the idea does sound interesting, I don't see how such distant relation would affect Braig in his intentions since he doesn't seem like the kind of person to care much about family ties or history. But who knows really, since we don't even know what his goal is anyway.

I don't think the series really needs family relationships since it really is mostly about friendship and the people you choose to surround yourself with, but I think if it doesn't affect the story much, but is just a "hey btw" thing, then it could work, why not? But then I'd rather it just be mentioned in an interview or some in-game report rather than being discussed by the characters themselves.

 

[Popsydoodles]

At this point in the saga it's a bit late to start tying in family characters with heavy significances unless they did it in a way that sets up the next one. Every one who is active on this forum seems to dislike the idea of any family in the series being introduced even in the slightest sense. Personally I just think they're over reacting a tad. I just see it as people who are a little worried about change. If later on it was added down the line I'm sure people would get over it. Some might like it. It happens with everything. I'll be cool with whatever they do even if they continue to ignore family. I can't wait to see what KH tackles next. Family, friendship, or neither. I just can't wait. It's going to be an interesting ride filled with its magical ups and downs, good writing and bad writing, and that delicious gameplay.