Mega Theory

[Mr. Wilhelm]

NO NO NO.

Evil is Evil and Good is Good. Ansem is still evil. even Evil villians like being evil. they want to destroy the good, and destroy the light. all that sora is to xemnas is just somethign preventign him from reachign more power in being evil

I disagree. That is true from your point of view. Now, take the one of Xemnas.

Since about 10 years, I am working to a way for me and all nobody re become whole.
That is hard, I create an organization for together we re become whole.
The, I begin to create my KH, thanks to Roxas who helps for this.

And in about what, one week? A boy called Sora destroy my organization, come to my world, destroy my KH and kill me. Now, say me that Xemnas is clearly thinking "I am Evil, Sora is good." I admit the way Xemnas chosed is not the best I would have thought of, but for a being without emotion like he is, nothing evil in this.

As for Ansem, what are others to him? Ignorant who knows nothing, they have no idea of what darkness are and he is the only one deserving to have darkness. He thinks Light is useless and decides it must disapear, Sora is a kid having for dumb reason the keyblade and Ansem despises him. He also is cruel, he must think that toward useless being it is normal, and he thinks except him everyone is useless.

I don't agree with him at all and it is just a fast summary, BUT, from his point of view, nothing evil in him. What he does is the only good things to do if you ask him. Sora, on the other side, is just an annoying ignorant.

Now, from Sora's point of view, Ansem is an evil being from Darkness, and Xemnas just an evil nobody : see how things are different following which point of view is used?

Most people are from Sora's side, normal, I don't think a lot find good what Ansem did good, but, that is our point of view. Not an universal one. Meaning that the world evil is true only if we precise : whch point of view, and can not be used for general things.

At the contrary, in KH, everyone can agree on what Light and Darkness are. So, Darkness is different from evil.

 

[Gildragon]

Cid: a good intention if done in evil methods is evil. its like money. the desire to have money does not make you evil. the having of money does not make you evil, but how you go about getting the money can make you evil.


The desire to be whole does not make you evil, becoming whole does not make you evil, but killing people and destroying their worlds is Evil. I don't understand how you can expect anyone to accept a good point of view form someone who really is only pursuing a goal out of selfish evil intentions. that my friend is evil itself.

 

[Xziled]

I disagree. That is true from your point of view. Now, take the one of Xemnas.

Since about 10 years, I am working to a way for me and all nobody re become whole.
That is hard, I create an organization for together we re become whole.
The, I begin to create my KH, thanks to Roxas who helps for this.

And in about what, one week? A boy called Sora destroy my organization, come to my world, destroy my KH and kill me. Now, say me that Xemnas is clearly thinking "I am Evil, Sora is good." I admit the way Xemnas chosed is not the best I would have thought of, but for a being without emotion like he is, nothing evil in this.

As for Ansem, what are others to him? Ignorant who knows nothing, they have no idea of what darkness are and he is the only one deserving to have darkness. He thinks Light is useless and decides it must disapear, Sora is a kid having for dumb reason the keyblade and Ansem despises him. He also is cruel, he must think that toward useless being it is normal, and he thinks except him everyone is useless.

I don't agree with him at all and it is just a fast summary, BUT, from his point of view, nothing evil in him. What he does is the only good things to do if you ask him. Sora, on the other side, is just an annoying ignorant.

Now, from Sora's point of view, Ansem is an evil being from Darkness, and Xemnas just an evil nobody : see how things are different following which point of view is used?

Most people are from Sora's side, normal, I don't think a lot find good what Ansem did good, but, that is our point of view. Not an universal one. Meaning that the world evil is true only if we precise : whch point of view, and can not be used for general things.

At the contrary, in KH, everyone can agree on what Light and Darkness are. So, Darkness is different from evil.

exactly how come u guys cant understand that

 

[V.A.T.13]

@ VAT: I find it hard to believe that you continually ask for a definition of evil. In stories like this there is a good guy and a bad guy. the good guy happens to be the protagonist and respectively the bad guy is the antagonist. Light always overcomes darkness. that is how light works. Since sora aligngs himself with light and for this story we can tell he is the GOOD guy. we can tell he will always overcome the darkness. Hmm I wonder what trait the enemies he fought that had darkness them had for a trait. Hmmm, DARKNESS.

But you're forggeting something: This is a Jrpg. And Square. Things are not always black and white. I mean, look at what we see from BBS. Terra, who we assume to be "good" his eyes turn yellow. yellow is a sign of darkness. Does that mean he is suddenly evil?

The desire to be whole does not make you evil, becoming whole does not make you evil, but killing people and destroying their worlds is Evil. I don't understand how you can expect anyone to accept a good point of view form someone who really is only pursuing a goal out of selfish evil intentions. that my friend is evil itself.

So what you're saying, killing is evil?
Well I guess that makes Sora 'evil' as well since he has killed also.
Being selfish is evil? Puh-lease. If anything, being selfish will keep your ass alive.
They were destroying worlds and people because:
Ansem: Because he thought HIS way was right
Orgy 13: Because they want to live again.
Sacrifices must be made yo.

Let me ask you something: Is God in the bible evil?

Oh that's right. I went there.

 

[Gildragon]

Sora only killed evil things. it is not evil to kill evil. evil wouldn't be around if it killed itself. it is a good thing to rid evil.

 

[V.A.T.13]

Are you THAT close minded?
You didn't answer my question.

Let's switch that around:
Nobodies are trying to kill Sora because he is evil for trying to kill them.

 

[Mr. Wilhelm]

Cid: a good intention if done in evil methods is evil. its like money. the desire to have money does not make you evil. the having of money does not make you evil, but how you go about getting the money can make you evil.

So, someone who needs money to feed his wife and children, who gets this money, but who had to steal someone, is evil since by definition stealing is bad? Random sample, but the way is bad but the purpose one of the noblest.

The desire to be whole does not make you evil, becoming whole does not make you evil, but killing people and destroying their worlds is Evil. I don't understand how you can expect anyone to accept a good point of view form someone who really is only pursuing a goal out of selfish evil intentions. that my friend is evil itself.

You see, from someone having no emotion, what Xemnas do is not that bad.

Look, you're reacting like that because, like everyone of us, you have grown up in a world where we have our idea of what is Evil and what is good. BUT that doesn't mean it is true.

I don't say I find Xemnas point of view good because like you, and everyone else, we have same point of view, where Xemnas is evil.
But. I accept that my point of view is not the only one and I try to see from Xemnas point of view. And, in doing, in trying to look things like he does, I understand that at least for him, he is not, evil. And from him, Sora is evil (and uses light).

 

[risingfalls]

The desire to be whole does not make you evil, becoming whole does not make you evil, but killing people and destroying their worlds is Evil. I don't understand how you can expect anyone to accept a good point of view form someone who really is only pursuing a goal out of selfish evil intentions. that my friend is evil itself.

Now, that is only evil to the people who's worlds are being destroyed, that is only selfish to the majority, for they [the people inhabiting the worlds] are being hurt.
To them [the nobodies], they are
a) devoid of actual feeling, so they don't know better.
b) trying to remedy [a]

Sora only killed evil things. it is not evil to kill evil. evil wouldn't be around if it killed itself. it is a good thing to rid evil.

lol. Go watch Death Note.
Yet we have still failed to define evil.

....Evil is only evil when contradicted with another's good or virtue.
so...one person's evil is another person's good.
Find a universal good, and you will find a universal evil.
....That was freakin oblique, but yeah, that's as open as I can get.

Let's switch that around:
Nobodies are trying to kill Sora because he is evil for trying to kill them.

lol, Sora's a douche.
Again, dependent on perspective.

 

[Xziled]

gildragon now u got me in this conflict now heres a perfect example:

lets say i just killed someone from your point of view im evil now lets add something to that say that person was trying to kill me first. from my point of view i was doing something good but say u didnt know that part but someone else did am i still evil? i may not have done something noble but i had to do something. all u have to do is think outside the box and you'll understand what everyone else is telling you

 

[Gildragon]

gildragon now u got me in this conflict now heres a perfect example:

lets say i just killed someone from your point of view im evil now lets add something to that say that person was trying to kill me first. from my point of view i was doing something good but say u didnt know that part but someone else did am i still evil? i may not have done something noble but i had to do something. all u have to do is think outside the box and you'll understand what everyone else is telling you

I do understand, but your example does not apply.

You are defending yourself from harm. That did not need to happen for the nobodies if they weren't destorying worlds.

I can understand that Xemnas form his point of view is doing the right thing but We know as established from the stance of the character whose shoes we fill that he is in fact doing the wrong thing.

to your example if you killed someone as a result of them trying to kill you? yes you would have done something wrong. because life is the most precious thing, but dealing with people (real world) you shoudl always be willing to forgive. now I am not saying that you should not defend yourself but you shoudl nto kill. that is no up to you to decide whether a person lives or dies.

In the case of sora. the things he is killing are evil and it is not wrong to reid the world of evil. (this is video game world now)

But to answer your question. sure from Xemnas point of view he is doing the right thing. but even evil people can think that evil is right. for example the White Witch in The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe summons evil to her. she actually calls it by name. but she is only doing things for her own good.

 

[Awesome Ansem]

YOU GUYS ARE THINKING ABOUT THIS WAY TOO HARD! In kingdom hearts (not the real world!) there is a clear line between good and evil. Sora is good. Ansem is evil. that's it. This is not about any point of view crap. If you want to tell me that you honestly sympethize with Ansem and think sora is evil, fine, go ahead. But I don't think any person on the face of the earth feels that way. When your parents read you fairy tales when you were younger, did you tell them to define evil, or tell them that the badguy is not actually evil, and that the protagonist fighting for good and light is actually morally questionable?!? NO! you just knew that the protagonist is good, and the bad guy is evil. And this has nothing to do with the game being japanese, or that it was made by square.

In the real world, light and dark has nothing to do with good or evil. yes. But kingdom hearts emphasizes the stereotype that good=light and evil=dark to a point where even a two year old could tell you that.

If any of you want to be f***ing philosophers, do it somewhere else besides the kingdom hearts forums. Kingdom hearts is NOT as complex as you're making it out to be.

 

[Yannis]

YOU GUYS ARE THINKING ABOUT THIS WAY TOO HARD! In kingdom hearts (not the real world!) there is a clear line between good and evil. Sora is good. Ansem is evil. that's it. This is not about any point of view crap. If you want to tell me that you honestly sympethize with Ansem and think sora is evil, fine, go ahead.

This true, man! Ansem is evil, no one can sympethize with that guy.

btw, Awesome Ansem, are you coming to KH-Chat now?

 

[Mr. Wilhelm]

YOU GUYS ARE THINKING ABOUT THIS WAY TOO HARD! In kingdom hearts (not the real world!) there is a clear line between good and evil. Sora is good. Ansem is evil. that's it. This is not about any point of view crap. If you want to tell me that you honestly sympethize with Ansem and think sora is evil, fine, go ahead. But I don't think any person on the face of the earth feels that way. When your parents read you fairy tales when you were younger, did you tell them to define evil, or tell them that the badguy is not actually evil, and that the protagonist fighting for good and light is actually morally questionable?!? NO! you just knew that the protagonist is good, and the bad guy is evil. And this has nothing to do with the game being japanese, or that it was made by square.

In the real world, light and dark has nothing to do with good or evil. yes. But kingdom hearts emphasizes the stereotype that good=light and evil=dark to a point where even a two year old could tell you that.

If any of you want to be f***ing philosophers, do it somewhere else besides the kingdom hearts forums. Kingdom hearts is NOT as complex as you're making it out to be.

This would be true if only KH1 existed. But since CoM, they did it more complex. The Organization is the perfect sample of complexity of good and evil in KH's world.

 

[risingfalls]

Haha, lol.
AwesomeAnsem, I guess that it's no fun to discuss things on the level of a 2 year old.
=D
btw, CoM's take on the whole dark =/= evil kinda contradicts that.
Actually, it straight up contradicts that.

 

[Awesome Ansem]

no the organization is not evil; they can't be. but they are bad.

 

[Mr. Wilhelm]

no the organization is not evil; they can't be. but they are bad.

Now, ask to Sora if they're evil. He will say "yes", finishing to prove that evil cannot be used that easily in KH.

 

[Xziled]

Now, ask to Sora if they're evil. He will say "yes", finishing to prove that evil cannot be used that easily in KH.

and the argument continues. can we please drop this already

 

[Anima Relic]

^This may be one of the longest arguements of all time :glare:

 

[Mr. Wilhelm]

and the argument continues. can we please drop this already

I honestly agree. No one will ever agree, so we need to stop.

 

[Xziled]

I honestly agree. No one will ever agree, so we need to stop.

does anyone even remember wat this thread was for