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Regarding the Ven- Roxas issue. (Major BBS spoiler alert)



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Is Roxas Ven?


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Laz

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Appearance/Body and Personality/Heart. While Roxas' Body looks like Ven's, it is Sora's and it's true form looks like Sora.
An imperfect analogy would be the child of a mother and father. You can't say the child is only one of the parent's because both gave something that makes them them. Roxas is both Sora's body and Ven's heart.(Let's just forget the personality for a second.) Ven is made up of Ven's body and Ven's heart. Even if Sora's body looked like Ven's, Sora's body was not changed into Ven's by magic.

On the other hand, Roxas is the only Nobody who looks different than their Somebody. Perhaps what the body looks like is caused by the heart and the Nobodys' bodies remember what their heart made their body look like, and Ven's heart changed Roxas.
Okay, I can't quite understand you point in this post. But i'll try to make the most out of my reply. So Roxas' body is from Sora. I get that, but what if we look at roxas' body only as a vessel for ven's heart and consciousness? Even if the body isn't his. He is still him, if you get what i'm saying.
It's like (and i hate to make a reference to another game) Megaman zero 3. Look it up on wiki, you'll see what I mean.

@ thelight: Look at this post
Ok, you do that.
I would but right now i'm not vexing Laz is
See what i mean about spamming? I know you are trying to defend a point and all. But you are obviously dealing with a spammer back there. You won't get anywhere with that guy.
 

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@Laz

I think I understand what you are saying. You are saying anything with Ven's heart would be Ven.
I believe that it takes both Ven's heart and body to be Ven
 

Laz

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I think I understand what you are saying. You are saying anything with Ven's heart would be Ven.
I believe that it takes both Ven's heart and body to be Ven
That's exactly what I believe. Let's not forget that Roxas also looks like Ven.
But then, following your logic. KH II sora is not really Sora. As he doesn't have a body, because Roxas is using it ATM.
 
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Half Full

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That's exactly what I believe. Let's not forget that Roxas also looks like Ven.
But then, following your logic. KH II sora is not really Sora. As he doesn't have a body, because Roxas is using it ATM.

What about the problem of two hearts? Was KH I Sora Ventus and Sora at the same time? Was Ven's heart dormant when it was in Sora? If so, why did it wake in Roxas?
 

Laz

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First of all, Let's take note that you didn't answer my previous statement. You answered a question with a question. With that being said, i'll answer.
What about the problem of two hearts? Was KH I Sora Ventus and Sora at the same time? Was Ven's heart dormant when it was in Sora? If so, why did it wake in Roxas?
Well, I guess that's up to Nomura to decide. But if it was up to me. I'd say that ven's heart was dormant the whole time, and so was kairi's. Otherwise, Sora would be able to triple wield in kh I; which would be totally ridiculous. Also Sora has his own heart, besides of the other two guests. But it's different with Roxas, because when Roxas was created. Ven's heart got transfered to Roxas. But Roxas didn't have heart in the first place. So ven's heart awoke and took control. That's it.
 

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So Roxas' body is from Sora. I get that, but what if we look at roxas' body only as a vessel for ven's heart and consciousness? Even if the body isn't his. He is still him, if you get what i'm saying.

No.

Nobodies are a different type of being than humans, not simply the materials of a body and a soul. They are beings made of a body and a soul and they have their own consciousnesses. They don't NEED hearts to function, at all.

Sora turned into a Heartless, and produced a Nobody. This Nobody is Roxas. Whether Ven was inside Sora or not, Roxas would still be born, and he would still have his own consciousness, just like any Nobody.

Putting a heart other than their Other's inside a Nobody would only serve to give the Nobody emotions, not delete them and replace them with another person. Why would the members of the Org want to get hearts from their fake KH if they knew it would just delete them and make them vessels for some other consciousness?
 

Laz

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Nobodies are a different type of being than humans, not simply the materials of a body and a soul. They are beings made of a body and a soul and they have their own consciousnesses. They don't NEED hearts to function, at all.

Sora turned into a Heartless, and produced a Nobody. This Nobody is Roxas. Whether Ven was inside Sora or not, Roxas would still be born, and he would still have his own consciousness, just like any Nobody.
The vessel concept still applies. Humans have their own consciousness yet demons can take over.Also for the jokers out there. No, I'm not implying Ven to be a demon.
Putting a heart other than their Other's inside a Nobody would only serve to give the Nobody emotions,
We don't know that yet. None of the nobodies other than Roxas, made it to that point.
Why would the members of the Org want to get hearts from their fake KH if they knew it would just delete them and make them vessels for some other consciousness?
We can assume that they were expecting their own hearts to be returned. Not somebody else's heart.
 

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First of all, Let's take note that you didn't answer my previous statement. You answered a question with a question. With that being said, i'll answer.

Well, I guess that's up to Nomura to decide. But if it was up to me. I'd say that ven's heart was dormant the whole time, and so was kairi's. Otherwise, Sora would be able to triple wield in kh I; which would be totally ridiculous. Also Sora has his own heart, besides of the other two guests. But it's different with Roxas, because when Roxas was created. Ven's heart got transfered to Roxas. But Roxas didn't have heart in the first place. So ven's heart awoke and took control. That's it.

Sorry for not answering your question. I'm still not sure about it. The logic is flawless, though I still have questions.
Sora's body looking like Roxas could be similar to Riku's body looking like Apprentice Xehanort, but what about Terra and Master Xehanort?
 

Laz

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Sora's body looking like Roxas could be similar to Riku's body looking like Apprentice Xehanort, but what about Terra and Master Xehanort?
What about them? I don't think their case applies. But i'll try to answer. Vanitas or "apprentice Xehanort", as you call it, is using a suit. The "suit of darkness" if you will. It's a trademark like the ORG coat. So riku wearing the same suit means nothing, he also wore the coat and he wasn't a nobody. Now about Terra and MX; I can answer but it'll spoil the secret ending for you. Do you want that?
 
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Relix

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Wait laz you said that sora and roxas can dual weild key-blades because they have two hearts inside of them, Fine. My question is why does sora have to be in drive form to dual weild while roxas does not

Roxas got his awakened his ability to dual wield through Xion's death while Sora awakened his through the drive forms. They had the ability all along they just have to awaken it. Roxas did it without fancy clothes.

The nobodies of the Organization were not trying to get their somebodies hearts back, they were trying to get hearts of their own. For ex: Axel wasn't searching or a heart to become Lea, he was searching for a heart and still remain Axel. Saix wasn't looking for a heart to return to being Isa, but to have a heart and still be Saix. That is why if anyone's heart entered a nobody they wouldn't become THAT heart's consciousness but just give the current consciousness of the nobody and give it the heart's functions.

...and why is a video game sounding like mad science?
 

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The vessel concept still applies. Humans have their own consciousness yet demons can take over.Also for the jokers out there. No, I'm not implying Ven to be a demon.

That hasn't got anything to do with the mythology of the KH universe. We've seen with Riku the difference between getting possessed, and simply having one's form affected by the heart inside.

Roxas appeared in the BBS secret ending alongside Axel and Xion, while Ventus appeared separately to him alongside Terra. If Roxas was 'possessed' as you say, then we haven't met him once in the entire series, so why would he have appeared there alongside the people who are 'awaiting their birth by sleep'?

We don't know that yet. None of the nobodies other than Roxas, made it to that point.
We can assume that they were expecting their own hearts to be returned. Not somebody else's heart.

Yes, we do know that, because they almost always say 'hearts of their own' when they talk about getting one, and their original hearts are inside a Heartless somewhere or have returned to the original Kingdom Hearts. What would making a new Kingdom Hearts do but make new hearts? They say that their Kingdom Hearts has the power to complete them, to give them hearts of their own, but I don't remember them ever saying anything about getting the old ones back.
 

Laz

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The nobodies of the Organization were not trying to get their somebodies hearts back, they were trying to get hearts of their own. For ex: Axel wasn't searching or a heart to become Lea, he was searching for a heart and still remain Axel. Saix wasn't looking for a heart to return to being Isa, but to have a heart and still be Saix. That is why if anyone's heart entered a nobody they wouldn't become THAT heart's consciousness but just give the current consciousness of the nobody and give it the heart's functions.
@Goldpanner and RelixBBs:We can also assume that they didn't know the effects of that process. As I said earlier, we'll never know what could've been.Since none of the nobodies, except for Roxas, got to that point.

...and why is a video game sounding like mad science?
Because the game itself begins and is full of mad scientists AKA MX, Even, Xehanort, and all the others.

EDIT: for further reference, look at the flash in Goldpanner's sign lol

Roxas appeared in the BBS secret ending alongside Axel and Xion, while Ventus appeared separately to him alongside Terra. If Roxas was 'possessed' as you say, then we haven't met him once in the entire series, so why would he have appeared there alongside the people who are 'awaiting their birth by sleep'?
You can't honestly, expect me to believe this as plausible. It's just for fan service. Let's see, why didn't they add Namine? She is a special nobody, as Roxas.
 
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Goldpanner

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@Goldpanner and RelixBBs:We can also assume that they didn't know the effects of that process. As I said earlier, we'll never know what could've been.Since none of the nobodies, except for Roxas, got to that point.

Seeing as the original bunch were scientists, one of them capable of creating fake hearts himself, I'd say we can assume they did know. But I guess we'll have to wait for when they bring Axel back and see if he's Lea. That will end it, I guess.

You can't honestly, expect me to believe this as plausible. It's just for fan service. Let's see, why didn't they add Namine? She is a special nobody, as Roxas.

....They did add Namine. She was the first one in the sequence.

I'd say it was less fan service and more hinting towards the next story arc in the series. That's like saying Deep Dive was just fanservice for Riku. Or Birth by Sleep was just fanservice for guys in armour -___-;


*watches MX wiggle fingers*
 

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Seeing as the original bunch were scientists, one of them capable of creating fake hearts himself, I'd say we can assume they did know. But I guess we'll have to wait for when they bring Axel back and see if he's Lea. That will end it, I guess.
Yeah, I guess we'll have to wait for it.

....They did add Namine. She was the first one in the sequence.
My bad, I guess i forgot that scene. I'll have to watch it again.
I'd say it was less fan service and more hinting towards the next story arc in the series. That's like saying Deep Dive was just fanservice for Riku. Or Birth by Sleep was just fanservice for guys in armour -___-;
Ok, you got a point there. But still, we can assume that they put roxas in the secret ending because "his pain still exists" or something along those lines. I'm resorting to coded now. If i'm correct, the problem with Sora is that he has to go back to heal their pain or something like that.
How is he supposed to save Roxas, Xion, and Namine? They are nobodies that weren't supposed to exist. Xion is a freak show whose existence depended on Sora being in a coma. IT doesn't make any sense. All Sora can do is say "Sorry, my bad y'all". Now TAV can be saved, that i get.

*watches MX wiggle fingers*
Yeah, it's kinda funny.
 

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The point of the Organization was to get new hearts of their own and become complete beings. Complete Xemnas, Xigbar, Xaldin, etc. Not become Xehanort, Braig, and Dilan again. They knew very well that they were aiming to not be their somebodies but complete nobodies. Why would make the concept if getting just any old heart would turn you into that person. this only applies to nobodies of course, but still Roxas gaining what was left of Ven's heart made Roxas a nobody with heart like functions getting him closer to the Organization's goal than anyone. Axel looked to have felt emotions himself or made him feel like having one. When Axel told Sora that Roxas and Sora made him feel like he had a heart, he didn't say they made him Lea again, or feel like Lea, they made him feel as Axel.
 

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=====Day 117: Him and Roxas=====

Roxas is maturing at an impressive rate. His face, the way he handles the
Keyblade, it's all exactly the same.

The worlds seem so divided and alone, but there's always that steady thread
there to connect them. And we Nobodies can never escape the things we did as
humans. So it goes.

Report Author: Xigbar
What do you have to say to that?

The point of the Organization was to get new hearts of their own and become complete beings. Complete Xemnas, Xigbar, Xaldin, etc. Not become Xehanort, Braig, and Dilan again. They knew very well that they were aiming to not be their somebodies but complete nobodies. Why would make the concept if getting just any old heart would turn you into that person. this only applies to nobodies of course, but still Roxas gaining what was left of Ven's heart made Roxas a nobody with heart like functions getting him closer to the Organization's goal than anyone. Axel looked to have felt emotions himself or made him feel like having one. When Axel told Sora that Roxas and Sora made him feel like he had a heart, he didn't say they made him Lea again, or feel like Lea, they made him feel as Axel.
Okay, the ORG nobodies are no diffrenet than their somebedies. What you said doesn't make any sense. Axel is Lea, the only difference is that he can't feel anything; but he acts and thinks the same way as lea did.
 
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I understand your point, but I still don't think Vanitas' situation is comparable here.

The thing is, Vanitas looks like Sora. I think this shows that Vanitas shares Ventus' connection to Sora, and he gets the same 'filling the empty spaces in my heart' thing. Which means Vanitas isn't really wielding on a cut off fraction of a heart alone.

But, Vanitas wasn't comatose when he was born. And that's prior to when Sora filled in Ven's heart. You could suggest that Vanitas is incapable of wielding (since we never see him do so during this time), but I somehow doubt that, especially when he's already capable of being conscious on his own.


I think that Roxas was able to experience ghost emotions as a side effect of having Ven's heart inside him, but he wasn't connected to that heart. If he was connected, then he should have been getting memories from it as well as from Sora, shouldn't he? But he didn't. Roxas didn't see as many Sora memories as Xion did, but he still had a fair few, if you count every time the bottom screen of the DS changed to show Sora. However, there was no hint that he was seeing memories of Ven at all that I could see. Xigbar saw Xion as Ven, but I thought that had to do with Xigbar's own memories projecting rather than the memories inside Roxas or Xion.

They were Sora's memories flowing into him that got the ball rolling, bringing him out of the blank slate mode. I think that perhaps some of those memories resonated with Ven's heart, and produced ghost emotions, but I don't think there's enough evidence to prove that the Keyblade itself belonged to Ven.

This issue goes both ways, though.
If you ask why Roxas wouldn't be capable of experiencing Ven's memories if he were using Ven's heart throughout Days, you also have to wonder why he wouldn't experience them if he "awoke" Ven's heart at the end of Days, either. We're both claiming that Ven's heart is active at one point or another, without any perceivable memories.

It may have to do with the memories being buried deep in his heart. As Namine says in coded, they were buried deep in Sora's heart, so they may have been buried deep in Ven's to start. It makes sense, considering he's been sleeping for a good decade. In "sleep," as in being taken by the Heartless, I imagine that you gradually forget.

It just makes sense that the Keyblade is Sora's. If it wasn't, then why would Xion become unable to use one when Roxas swings the power balance? lame plot device to force them to spend time together? Noooo

Xion's power hinges on the absorption of memories through Roxas, Roxas' power does not. He had it from the getgo and while he himself got weaker, he never lost the ability to wield. So I don't think Xion's ability to wield really has any correlation to whether or not the keyblade Roxas uses is Sora's or Ven's.

Actually, I was talking about this line

As in, 'from the time that the two were both using the Keyblade at the same time' is referencing what was said previously about them both using the Keyblade, and 'the Organisation itself was using Sora' references Castle Oblivion.

Ah, got ya.

Lol, I'd say the convulsion went into overdrive with Ansem/DiZ/Rikunort/Terranort/Xehanort/what-the-fuck-ever-nort, but at least they explain that in-game....

Right, confusing, but it's there. And the parts that aren't explicitly explained are things that don't need to be. For example, how much of Xemnas was Terra and things of that nature offer some healthy speculation. Even then, though, we're supposed to be getting some hints about that in the next game (presumably 3D).

You'd figuring working out all of this keyblade stuff would be more important, but even more of it is left to interviews.


You know, there was another interview (that Days-era fan powered one) that had paraphrased him as saying
and him saying 'Sora's power' made me think that the second blade is Sora's, back when I first read that text (another translator did it on Heartstation, I can't remember how they actually translated the line).

So, in conclusion, who the fuck knows. I guess we just have to wait and see if we're tossed any more bones.

Just shoot me.
 

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What about them? I don't think their case applies. But i'll try to answer. Vanitas or "apprentice Xehanort", as you call it, is using a suit. The "suit of darkness" if you will. It's a trademark like the ORG coat. So riku wearing the same suit means nothing, he also wore the coat and he wasn't a nobody. Now about Terra and MX; I can answer but it'll spoil the secret ending for you. Do you want that?
My question is to why bodies look different. Sora's body looks like Ven when only Ven's heart is inside it. Post-COM Riku looked like Apprentice Xehanort's(or Terranort's) heartless. I did not mean Vanitas.
 

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What do you have to say to that?

Okay, the ORG nobodies are no diffrenet than their somebedies. What you said doesn't make any sense. Axel is Lea, the only difference is that he can't feel anything; but he acts and thinks the same way as lea did.

So are you going to tell me that Sora and Roxas have the same conscious? Or Xemnas and Ansem SoD?

They mimic they're somebodies conscious because they have their somebodies memories. They are non-existent mirrors of their somebodies. That is what they stress in KH2 and Days. They can't escape what they're somebodies have done because they have their somebodies memories. If you were a blank sheet and was given memories of your life, you would think you were you. Wanna an easier example? Riku Replica. Yes he's not a nobody but the concept still kinda applies. Riku replica totally different from Riku in his first few moments of life (in the beginning of Reverse Rebirth had his own personality and everything.) but when he was given memories of Riku's and some made up by Namine he believed himself to be Riku, was he? Of course not but his memories made him so. The nobodies have the memories of their somebodies and therefore can develop their old ways or so but they are still seperate from their somebodies, that is why they are distinguished between each other. The somebody and the nobody. Damn.

Edit: I think Roxas took on the appearance of Ven because when the process of the nobodies appearance made, (which I believe to be the memories) and Roxas was cut from Sora because Kairi restored him, he had to draw on something else, so he drew on Ven. Does this mean that Ven was latched to Sora's body or that when Kairi restored Sora she seperated Ven from Sora and what was Ven went into the body I don't know but I just believe that because Sora wasn't available to give to Roxas Ven had to somewhat.
 
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