Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness

[Arpack]

Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

Lol, that's a good one. xD But yes, Terra can do it!

Go Terra! Kick his dark ass!

Yes terra has always tried to do good despite the darkness being to much for him to overwelm...but is it possible that terra could be a villian?

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

Yes terra has always tried to do good despite the darkness being to much for him to overwelm...but is it possible that terra could be a villian?

Terra was in fact never a villain, unlike Riku in KH 1, who was really a jerkass and working willingly with the bad guys.

The only thing Terra can be hold up to is that he let his emotions get the better of him (especially rage and hate against Xehanort) which drove him so far into darkness that Xehanort could easily implement his plan.

 

[AdrianXXII]

Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

Terra was in fact never a villain, unlike Riku in KH 1, who was really a jerkass and working willingly with the bad guys.

The only thing Terra can be hold up to is that he let his emotions get the better of him (especially rage and hate against Xehanort) which drove him so far into darkness that Xehanort could easily implement his plan.

I wonder how much of Riku's jerky behavior came from him directly and how much of it came from is fall into darkness. I find it interesting that Riku seemed to have been able to resist the darkness and Xehanort much better than Terra could. After all Riku could resist Xehanort to the point that his heart was kicked out.

Does anyone else wonder how exactly we should define one of the Seven Guardian of Light. Because right now it seems they're just a keyblade wielder that protects the light from the Thirteen Seekers of Darkness. So I'm getting the feeling that either we'll have ten Guardians of the light at the end or we won't be saving everyone until the very end of this saga.

 

[Zettaflare]

Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

I wonder how much of Riku's jerky behavior came from him directly and how much of it came from is fall into darkness. I find it interesting that Riku seemed to have been able to resist the darkness and Xehanort much better than Terra could. After all Riku could resist Xehanort to the point that his heart was kicked out.

Does anyone else wonder how exactly we should define one of the Seven Guardian of Light. Because right now it seems they're just a keyblade wielder that protects the light from the Thirteen Seekers of Darkness. So I'm getting the feeling that either we'll have ten Guardians of the light at the end or we won't be saving everyone until the very end of this saga.

You also have to remember that maleficient was manipulating riku since he arrived in hollow bastion.

 

[Roxie1563]

Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

Yes terra has always tried to do good despite the darkness being to much for him to overwelm...but is it possible that terra could be a villian?

I don't really think so; Terra always promised his friend that he will make this right one day.. and that day is coming soon.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

I wonder how much of Riku's jerky behavior came from him directly and how much of it came from is fall into darkness. I find it interesting that Riku seemed to have been able to resist the darkness and Xehanort much better than Terra could. After all Riku could resist Xehanort to the point that his heart was kicked out.

Does anyone else wonder how exactly we should define one of the Seven Guardian of Light. Because right now it seems they're just a keyblade wielder that protects the light from the Thirteen Seekers of Darkness. So I'm getting the feeling that either we'll have ten Guardians of the light at the end or we won't be saving everyone until the very end of this saga.

It was both to some degree, as he had that competitive streak already back on the islands always clashing with Sora (then still a friendly rivalry), not to mention his ambitions to gain power, both easy entry points for the darkness if stirred correctly (which Maleficent exploited).
So the assets were already existing inside Riku, and over time were amplified and exaggerated by the exposure to the darkness, leading to him shedding more and more of his inner restraint to the point where he was perfectly willing to kidnap (Pinocchio, Wendy, Jasmine) or even kill (The Beast, Sora) people just to prove that he's superior and gain more power.

As for Riku resisting Xehanort better, there have to be two differences kept in mind:
1. Riku was dealing with Ansem, Seeker of Darkness, who, while powerful, holds only a fraction of Xehanort's full power. Terra had to deal with Xehanort's full power and his vast knowledge as a Keyblade Master.
2. The psychological circumstances were different for the two: Riku realized that much of the shit that went down was due to his own fault and by pulling a turn around he could actively change the course, which Ansem didn't expect. Terra on the other hand was manipulated and goaded into a nearly hopeless position, with despair for not being able to rescue his friends clouding his emotional capacity, leading him to lose control of his darkness completely.

Furthermore, in Riku's case, there were both Kairi and Sora to lead Riku on a little and help him regain control. In Terra's case, Ventus was too occupied with his own problems (like a crazy psycho trying to absorb him and his heart being used to forge an ugly super weapon) while Aqua was a) occupied with Braig, b) trying to save Ventus as well and c) wasn't entirely as supportive towards Terra as i.e. Sora was for Riku due to Eraqus' flawed teachings at first.

 

[AdrianXXII]

Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

It was both to some degree, as he had that competitive streak already back on the islands always clashing with Sora (then still a friendly rivalry), not to mention his ambitions to gain power, both easy entry points for the darkness if stirred correctly (which Maleficent exploited).
So the assets were already existing inside Riku, and over time were amplified and exaggerated by the exposure to the darkness, leading to him shedding more and more of his inner restraint to the point where he was perfectly willing to kidnap (Pinocchio, Wendy, Jasmine) or even kill (The Beast, Sora) people just to prove that he's superior and gain more power.

As for Riku resisting Xehanort better, there have to be two differences kept in mind:
1. Riku was dealing with Ansem, Seeker of Darkness, who, while powerful, holds only a fraction of Xehanort's full power. Terra had to deal with Xehanort's full power and his vast knowledge as a Keyblade Master.
2. The psychological circumstances were different for the two: Riku realized that much of the shit that went down was due to his own fault and by pulling a turn around he could actively change the course, which Ansem didn't expect. Terra on the other hand was manipulated and goaded into a nearly hopeless position, with despair for not being able to rescue his friends clouding his emotional capacity, leading him to lose control of his darkness completely.

Furthermore, in Riku's case, there were both Kairi and Sora to lead Riku on a little and help him regain control. In Terra's case, Ventus was too occupied with his own problems (like a crazy psycho trying to absorb him and his heart being used to forge an ugly super weapon) while Aqua was a) occupied with Braig, b) trying to save Ventus as well and c) wasn't entirely as supportive towards Terra as i.e. Sora was for Riku due to Eraqus' flawed teachings at first.

To your first point. Even if it was Ansem, wasn't it the same heart? I can see it being weaker than it was when he was still Master Xehanort but Riku was also weaker than Terra and I'm guessing had a lot less knowlage of light, darkness and the keyblade, so wouldn't that even the odds a little?

I find it actually Interesting that in a way there's a difference how they're friends effected their struggle with their darkness. In Riku's case his friendship with Sora and Kairi gave him the strength to fight the darkness. Where as in Terra's case it lead to him giving into the darkness for he feared that he'd lose them. Though I guess that one could say that Riku's distrust in Sora's loyalty also lead to his fall into darkness and that it's very likely that Aqua and Ven while have a big role in saving Terra.

Aqua might not have been as supportive as Sora, but she did care for Terra just as much otherwise she wouldn't have given up her own freedom to save him.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

To your first point. Even if it was Ansem, wasn't it the same heart? I can see it being weaker than it was when he was still Master Xehanort but Riku was also weaker than Terra and I'm guessing had a lot less knowlage of light, darkness and the keyblade, so wouldn't that even the odds a little?

I find it actually Interesting that in a way there's a difference how they're friends effected their struggle with their darkness. In Riku's case his friendship with Sora and Kairi gave him the strength to fight the darkness. Where as in Terra's case it lead to him giving into the darkness for he feared that he'd lose them.

Don't forget that Ansem was/is the Heartless of Apprentice Xehanort, a being with a combined heart that was a contested battleground between three opposing hearts, unlike the original MX who didn't have that, so its definitely weaker, or rather, more unstable than MX's heart alone.
It's also not like Terra didn't try to pull the same Riku did once Aqua reached through to him in the final battle in the Final Episode. When joining with Terra in that golden dimension blasting the Guardian with dual-limit that represents Terra resisting just like Riku stopped Ansem from killing Kairi, Donald and Goofy.
Xehanort even tries the same stunt Ansem later does with Riku to cast Terra's heart out of its own body, but unlike Ansem, Xehanort fails in that regard and loses all memories for a short time.

Like I said, that's also because the circumstances were different. Riku dived into the darkness willingly to some extent, while Terra was always wary of it due to Eraqus' teachings affecting his line of thought as well.
It is because Riku threw away his home world and friends (to an extent) willingly that he managed to see in what a wrong direction he was steering and counteract to it before it was already too late.
Terra wasn't able to see the wrong direction fully due to the much more dire circumstances and once he finally did it was too late. Terra's behaviour and speech patterns in the secret ending Blank Points do indicate though that he saw it after all, opting too for the "never give up"-path which even impressed MX slightly, who then deduced that Eraqus' heart was there to help out as well.

Though I guess that one could say that Riku's distrust in Sora's loyalty also lead to his fall into darkness and that it's very likely that Aqua and Ven while have a big role in saving Terra.

Aqua might not have been as supportive as Sora, but she did care for Terra just as much otherwise she wouldn't have given up her own freedom to save him.

That distrust only grew because of the darkness. When Riku showed the signs of distrust and antagonism to Sora in KH he was already ensnared by the darkness, cultivated by Maleficent. He took her words easily for granted and didn't even try to srcutinize his biased views towards Sora's stance, as even on the islands Sora was always quick to make other friends like Tidus, Wakka and Selphie as well.

That has been even hinted in Birth by Sleep itself, when Terra leaves Radiant Garden:

In the final battle of BBS, Ven wasn't there because he was in grave danger himself, facing Vanitas and the "destiny" Xehanort forced on him with the X-blade, so that can be easily taken as a hint for the future.

Yes, by the time of the Final Episode Aqua was indeed as supportive as Sora was in KH 1 for Riku, and she actually managed to stir Terra up as well, seeing as you can team up with him during the second half of the battle. At that time though, it was almost too late, as again, circumstances prevented Aqua from being fully supportive during the Keyblade Graveyard battle due to Braig's interference (he explicitly says he's "buying time" for Xehanort) and Ven being in danger as well.

 

[AdrianXXII]

Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

Don't forget that Ansem was/is the Heartless of Apprentice Xehanort, a being with a combined heart that was a contested battleground between three opposing hearts, unlike the original MX who didn't have that, so its definitely weaker, or rather, more unstable than MX's heart alone.
It's also not like Terra didn't try to pull the same Riku did once Aqua reached through to him in the final battle in the Final Episode. When joining with Terra in that golden dimension blasting the Guardian with dual-limit that represents Terra resisting just like Riku stopped Ansem from killing Kairi, Donald and Goofy.
Xehanort even tries the same stunt Ansem later does with Riku to cast Terra's heart out of its own body, but unlike Ansem, Xehanort fails in that regard and loses all memories for a short time.

Like I said, that's also because the circumstances were different. Riku dived into the darkness willingly to some extent, while Terra was always wary of it due to Eraqus' teachings affecting his line of thought as well.
It is because Riku threw away his home world and friends (to an extent) willingly that he managed to see in what a wrong direction he was steering and counteract to it before it was already too late.
Terra wasn't able to see the wrong direction fully due to the much more dire circumstances and once he finally did it was too late. Terra's behaviour and speech patterns in the secret ending Blank Points do indicate though that he saw it after all, opting too for the "never give up"-path which even impressed MX slightly, who then deduced that Eraqus' heart was there to help out as well.

Yeah the heart was definitely less stable when Riku was possessed, but we don't really know if the fight continued to this day. I also feel that Riku seemed more interested in stopping Ansem in that moment than actually completely regaining control, that might have helped too. It is after all a smaller goal.
Terra definitely did try to regain control, but he had to fight an unhindered Xehanort. I'm interested why Xehanorts failed attempt opened a gate into the realm of darkness, I have the feeling that might have been Terra's interfering that caused it to happen.

Yes, the way that Riku and Terra approached the situation did definitely play into when and how they could try to properly fight back. I think he probably was able to see that he'd been going the wrong direction during the fight against Aqua, hence why he managed to show up.

That distrust only grew because of the darkness. When Riku showed the signs of distrust and antagonism to Sora in KH he was already ensnared by the darkness, cultivated by Maleficent. He took her words easily for granted and didn't even try to srcutinize his biased views towards Sora's stance, as even on the islands Sora was always quick to make other friends like Tidus, Wakka and Selphie as well.

That has been even hinted in Birth by Sleep itself, when Terra leaves Radiant Garden:

In the final battle of BBS, Ven wasn't there because he was in grave danger himself, facing Vanitas and the "destiny" Xehanort forced on him with the X-blade, so that can be easily taken as a hint for the future.

Yes, by the time of the Final Episode Aqua was indeed as supportive as Sora was in KH 1 for Riku, and she actually managed to stir Terra up as well, seeing as you can team up with him during the second half of the battle. At that time though, it was almost too late, as again, circumstances prevented Aqua from being fully supportive during the Keyblade Graveyard battle due to Braig's interference (he explicitly says he's "buying time" for Xehanort) and Ven being in danger as well.

I don't know if it was only because of the darkness, I feel it grew because Riku gave into that distrust and jealousy just like Maleficent encouraged him to.

As you pointed out they were all in some kind of peril, so even though they were there and wanted to help they couldn't.

I personally feel Aqua would have done it at any point. Even if she had her differences with him, she seemed to be concerned about him. Her whole "that's not what the master told you to do" and her reaction after learning from Terra what happened to their master were probably her way of expressing concern that he'd fall into darkness. So she might not have been supportive of his actions, but she still cared about him. But that could just be my interpretation of her character.

 

[Roxie1563]

Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

Heh, finally, sephly and Adrian are talking like it should been. You guys are so interesting to watch/read about anything of Kingdom Hearts.

Now, I see major differences between Riku and Terra, but the same thing is they're fighting the Darkness no matter what. Riku grew more mature and wiser during his adventures trying to get rid of Darkness yet used it for the right reasons, i.e. fighting Roxas to reawaken Sora.
If you ask me, I think Riku is the real main character after all, but that's just me.

 

[Zettaflare]

Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

Heh, finally, sephly and Adrian are talking like it should been. You guys are so interesting to watch/read about anything of Kingdom Hearts.

Now, I see major differences between Riku and Terra, but the same thing is they're fighting the Darkness no matter what. Riku grew more mature and wiser during his adventures trying to get rid of Darkness yet used it for the right reasons, i.e. fighting Roxas to reawaken Sora.
If you ask me, I think Riku is the real main character after all, but that's just me.

I always like to think that sora and riku where both the main characters of the series as their stories parallel each other. The story of the keyblade wielder following the light and the story of the one following the darkness. But i can see why you feel that riku is the true main character as he gets the most character development in the series. I cant wait for riku and terra to meet again in kh3 after 11 years apart. Given both of their experiences with xehanort and the darkness, i would imagine they would have a lot to talk about. Their discussion is one of the things i look forward to in kh3.

 

[Roxie1563]

Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

I always like to think that sora and riku where both the main characters of the series as their stories parallel each other. The story of the keyblade wielder following the light and the story of the one following the darkness. But i can see why you feel that riku is the true main character as he gets the most character development in the series. I cant wait for riku and terra to meet again in kh3 after 11 years apart. Given both of their experiences with xehanort and the darkness, i would imagine they would have a lot to talk about. Their discussion is one of the things i look forward to in kh3.

Me too! Lol, it'll be amazing to see everybody up and running, talking about what has been happening since they stopped Xehanort in the Keyblade Graveyard..

 

[AdrianXXII]

Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

Heh, finally, sephly and Adrian are talking like it should been. You guys are so interesting to watch/read about anything of Kingdom Hearts.

Now, I see major differences between Riku and Terra, but the same thing is they're fighting the Darkness no matter what. Riku grew more mature and wiser during his adventures trying to get rid of Darkness yet used it for the right reasons, i.e. fighting Roxas to reawaken Sora.
If you ask me, I think Riku is the real main character after all, but that's just me.

The series does focus on Riku a lot but he's more like the deuteragonist, while Sora is the protagonist because the story does revolve mainly around him.

 

[Roxie1563]

Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

The series does focus on Riku a lot but he's more like the deuteragonist, while Sora is the protagonist because the story does revolve mainly around him.

True. Though, they should have put like two stories to play through like they did with Re:Chain of Memories: Sora's path to Light and Riku's path to Darkness/Dawn. It would be interesting to see different side of their adventures.

 

[Zettaflare]

Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

If vanitas is one of the thirteen, i hope he gets some character development in kh3. I thought he was a great villain in bbs, but what really sold me on him was the revelation of his past in the novel kh bbs to the future. Even though it didnt excuse his actions, the novel gave his character a lot of depth, which is why he was my favorite character from bbs.

 

[AdrianXXII]

Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

True. Though, they should have put like two stories to play through like they did with Re:Chain of Memories: Sora's path to Light and Riku's path to Darkness/Dawn. It would be interesting to see different side of their adventures.

Well BBS vol. 2 kind of seemed like it was going to show the other side of the story, but seeing we won't get it we'll never know. I really hope the games in the future of this series remain multi scenario stories it's really nice getting to play as multiple characters and get more than one side of the story.

 

[Roxie1563]

Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

If vanitas is one of the thirteen, i hope he gets some character development in kh3. I thought he was a great villain in bbs, but what really sold me on him was the revelation of his past in the novel kh bbs to the future. Even though it didnt excuse his actions, the novel gave his character a lot of depth, which is why he was my favorite character from bbs.

Um, what novel? I didn't hear anything about it like that.

I'm pretty sure he's in KH3.. we saw his image beside Young Xehanort in Sora's story.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

Yeah the heart was definitely less stable when Riku was possessed, but we don't really know if the fight continued to this day. I also feel that Riku seemed more interested in stopping Ansem in that moment than actually completely regaining control, that might have helped too. It is after all a smaller goal.
Terra definitely did try to regain control, but he had to fight an unhindered Xehanort. I'm interested why Xehanorts failed attempt opened a gate into the realm of darkness, I have the feeling that might have been Terra's interfering that caused it to happen.

Yes, the way that Riku and Terra approached the situation did definitely play into when and how they could try to properly fight back. I think he probably was able to see that he'd been going the wrong direction during the fight against Aqua, hence why he managed to show up.

I don't know if it was only because of the darkness, I feel it grew because Riku gave into that distrust and jealousy just like Maleficent encouraged him to.

As you pointed out they were all in some kind of peril, so even though they were there and wanted to help they couldn't.

I personally feel Aqua would have done it at any point. Even if she had her differences with him, she seemed to be concerned about him. Her whole "that's not what the master told you to do" and her reaction after learning from Terra what happened to their master were probably her way of expressing concern that he'd fall into darkness. So she might not have been supportive of his actions, but she still cared about him. But that could just be my interpretation of her character.

That Riku seemed more interested in stopping Ansem at all cost seems to be the case indeed, as he implores Kairi, Donald and Goofy to flee, indicating that he doesn't expect himself to be able to hold Ansem off for long.
This is all part of the whole mystery that surrounds the "Terra/Xehanort/Eraqus"-mess that this whole heart-conglomerate is and which Nomura refused to delve further into yet (even worse, in DDD he even deepened the mystery). We do not even know why Xehanort's attempt to expel Terra's heart didn't work, Ansem succeeded with Riku just fine and he had no Keyblade at hand, unlike Xehanort.
It has been theorized that this may have already been an instance of Terra and Eraqus working together against MX, but we don't know anything for sure.

I'm more inclined to believe that during that fight, Terra inside Xehanort was finally able to overcome his feelings of despair and rage to a certain extent, and seeing Aqua believing in him and trying to best Xehanort brought him into action, in the hope of not losing Aqua after he already (supposedly) lost Ven (last thing Terra saw was the energy pillar of Vanitas initating X-blade sorcery). The Lingering Will came already into being due to Terra's immense rage and determination, something we'll notice Riku wasn't doing, not because he might be incapable of it, no, at least at first Riku welcomed Ansem as an opporunity for power, while Terra rejected Xehanort from the very beginning.

I could imagine that there was at least partly an interdependency at work, with the negative emotions increasing the darkness more while the darkness caused even those emotions to intensify until Riku was incapable of any rational judgement.

Did I ever imply Aqua didn't want to help him? As you said above, unlike Sora, she was incapable of doing so during the Keyblade Graveyard events because of Braig and Vanitas. Xehanort freezing Ventus into a popsicle had certainly more meaning than just to make Terra mad and hurt him "for the lulz". Xehanort knew that both Aqua and Terra were very protective towards Ven and by putting him in peril (and send Vanitas after for the X-blade) he effectively put Aqua into a tough choice-situation. Go help Terra against Xehanort? Nope, bad idea, then Vanitas would get to a helpless, frozen Ven.
The fact that Aqua actually choose to help Ven first (she also didn't expect Braig appearing to stall her) proved that she had still faith in Terra, which she also rubs right into Braig's face when he shows up.
Being a master of manipulation though, Xehanort expected that and proceeded to drive Terra to a point where he would lose control of his darkness.

Heh, finally, sephly and Adrian are talking like it should been. You guys are so interesting to watch/read about anything of Kingdom Hearts.

Now, I see major differences between Riku and Terra, but the same thing is they're fighting the Darkness no matter what. Riku grew more mature and wiser during his adventures trying to get rid of Darkness yet used it for the right reasons, i.e. fighting Roxas to reawaken Sora.
If you ask me, I think Riku is the real main character after all, but that's just me.

Looks like we got a spectator, *ggg*.

Of course, despite all similarities, they need some differences in order to better show off the different possible paths and actions they take.
Sora and Ventus are in fact also different in some aspects.
I would be cautious with saying Riku cheating with Darkness to kidnap Roxas and set him up to disappear against his will were the "right reasons" though. In the very end, his goal might have been noble (to awaken Sora), but not his actions. In regards to Roxas he, Naminé and DiZ weren't any better than the Organisation in that they were just using and treating Roxas as a tool to further their own goals instead of treating him as an individual with his own wishes and will.

Riku is definitely the deuteragonist, meaning the second most important character of the series after Sora. All the trios and Mickey, Goofy and co. might be main characters, but Sora and Riku still stand one level above them.

 

[KeyofEvil'sBane]

Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

There seems to be a mix here of "the ends justify the means" and "darkness is something that should never be willingly given into". Its true that DIZ was not much better in his pursuit of the Org and treatment of Roxas, but our understanding of Nobodies was different at the time, and they were thought to have no hearts (some of them still might not have). I would say Riku wouldn't have had to use darkness to cheat against Roxas had he just approached him a different way, but seeing as Days revealed Roxas was in full on rage mode and hell bent on destroying everything about the Org, that might not have worked as well.

 

[Zettaflare]

Re: Seven Guardians of Light and Thirteen Seekers of Darkness.

Um, what novel? I didn't hear anything about it like that.

I'm pretty sure he's in KH3.. we saw his image beside Young Xehanort in Sora's story.

The novel "to the future" is a short story that goes into detail about vanitas' past and his relationship with xehanort and ven. It also fleshes out his relationship with the unversed and shows him in a more sympathetic light. You should check it out, as im sure there is a translated version online somewhere