The Identity of Chirithy's Master

[Pandymint]

I have to take these words at face value as I'm not familiar with the Metal Gear series beyond some character names and the fact that the story is known to be very complex with many twists.

Complex might be being friendly to it. I love Metal Gear, favorite series out there, but Kojima just loves to dump tons of exposition onto you explaining even the smallest details. That's not even to mention the whole post-modern style of MGS2's internal discussion on information control through the internet and passing memes onto the next generation.

Then you find out everything you know is a lie. But then, that's a theme of almost any Metal Gear.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

I've never played MGS either however dozens of people I know or met have. They understand it's story perfectly given how they all hold the same version of it's tales and complexities. Which with these friends being both across internet and real life tells me it must at least present puts the info to understand it where it should be, in the game, which KH doesn't do for most things.

Your situation is understandable in it's own right but due to the rarity of twins it's also definitely unique. Twins run in my own family actually and my cousins are the latest to appear. Like you I have learned to notice the subtle differences, namely I can tell them apart based on their voices, but distinguishing identical people like that takes time which most dont get. (for instance the only twins I can tell apart at first sight ARE my cousins, any other set would easily fool me)
Basically put most dont get the 'training' of knowing twins to look for slight variances. I myself never looked at eyebrows of in-game models and simply knew them different based on personality but I also understand a more visible distinguishing feature wouldn't hurt. It'd especially go a long way into making them more original rather than just carbon model copies. (add more to the identity as it were)

I think it's painfully obvious BBS failed in that regard and several others. lol

In that case, when Nomura goes to have a meal together with Kojima, he should definitely ask for some pointers to make his own complex story better accessible. A complex story can actually be very rewarding and fun to follow when you're able to put the pieces together, but for that to work all pieces need to be readily accessible.

Yep, that's why it's probably better when I refrain from engaging in this topic too much in the future as my view on it is a bit of a special case.
That it wouldn't hurt I can also see easily, yet when looking at the fact that Ventus was planned to look either like Sora or Roxas from the get go, I'd assume that a more visible distinguishing feature was not wanted by Nomura and the creators. It's not laziness or unprofessional handling but deliberately done this way.

Instances like these make me wonder if it would have been better to keep BBS for the PS2 or make it for the PS3 instead of the PSP. In these cases, they could have given the game a bigger overall scope to flesh things out.

Here's hoping but my hope isn't to high. Not because of popular theories but just track record. haha T_T

Sadly this is true. Individually they had something to them. Ansem & Xemnas in particular were much more unique this way because you could view it as two beings warped by separation and memory loss. Not knowing who to be they were a mess. Master Xehanorts role was to explain the former and he did that perfectly. Doing what DDD honestly just cheapened all of them and even threw out all the possibilities of "is it terra or xehanort!?" of the two in scenes. (personally I think it would've been better if, instead of Xehanort being "it was all me!", that it could've just been "oh I've learned from my mistakes" ya know like an actual human would)

Aqua is honestly the only interest I have in 2.8. I'm curious to see what her short story will be and hope it gives her a development lacking in not only female characters but most characters in general. Also dark realm with destroyed light realm exploration, it'll be like one big version of End Of The World from KH1. (hopefully anyway)
Sadly I'm not sure Ven or Terra or salvageable at this point. Ven is to much like playing Sora for most and Terra's general consensus isn't great among fans. haha

Probably another topic for another thread but bottling anger in any form, RL or here, can bleed into the other making other things being ignored bad. Best to just vent and accept what's annoying you. (of course most would just rather do it continuously which is basically just bitching)
Meh even Audo's examples dont give him credit or elevate his character to me. To me Axel will always just be shoehorned fanservice. (I just dont gripe about him as much because he's more original than most of the cast lol)

Eugh, can't deny that one.

If I have to be honest, even when not counting DDD into anything the "how much of it is Terra"-possibilities were to a large percentage just wishful thinking/overanalyzing by parts of the fandom. In both Xemnas and Ansem there are many actions and behaviours that can be 100% solely attributed to Xehanort-influence and a few which can be attributed to both Xehanort or Terra depending on interpretation, but I don't remember any action or behaviour that indicated solely Terra-influence.
The head-banging worthy issue with that one is that Xehanort admitting to miscalculations and actual failures on his part would be much more in line with the actual central premise of his character: Xehanort is clever, yes, he's also a good tactician, skilled schemer and manipulator, but he's also equipped with an insatiable curiosity (as Eraqus confirmed very vocally) who also likes to experiment and start a scheme/plan just to see what happens. If it doesn't work, Xehanort cuts his losses and comes up with something new very fast.
Xehanort being a good tactician can also mean that he's extremely gifted at improvisation and instead of having everything planned out and bragging about it he could just have admitted that his fetish for trying out things resulted in some failures but that he improvised to come out with no serious losses and has a new plan now.
Heck, this would make his callous speech to Mickey regarding the fates of the TAV-trio or the mess that was caused in KH I and II even more chilling and disgusting, as in this case all the suffering displayed there would have just happened because Xehanort (and his ax-crazy offshoots who inherited that trait from him) wanted to try out some stuff and see what happens. Not some convoluted Destiny and inevitable fate-stuff, lives got ruined left and right because Xehanort wanted to "play", and he has a new plan now to do it all over again.
For the sake of characterisation they could even have written a short cutscene in the Realm of Sleep where the revived Xehanort meets Ansem and Xemnas, explaining to them the flaws and mistakes in their respective plans. Bonus points if in a counter to that Ansem and Xemnas point out Xehanort's mistakes during his own BBS schemes and eventually all three come to the agreement to pool their resources together for a new plan.

I dunno about actual groundbreaking developments though except maybe with Mickey, since the premise doesn't give much room for actual interactions. As for the big version of EoW of KH I I personally can only give a shoulder-shrug on that one as I never thought End of the world to be anything truly special. It's the typical boring gloom and doom-dungeion setting which is probably also the reason why my "excitement" for the Realm of Darkness itself ranges close to zero. I just can't get warm with such settings in general.
If that's really the main complaint about Ven it is strange that people seem to have no problem with playing Roxas, as that one plays even more like Sora, right down to the identical battle stance. As for Terra, well, while it is true that all three main characters from BBS have been handled less than stellar in the game, Terra arguably got the shortest stick out of them all. His voice actor being a newbie (and voice direction in KH being generally flawed) certainly only added fuel to the fire.
And yet I feel this also being only a small snapshot of (mostly) the western fanbase, as I recall in the last Famitsu character popularity poll that was done Aqua and Terra were among the top five (with Sora, Roxas and Axel), Ventus also still in the top 10 while Riku, who's hugely popular in the western fandom, didn't even get 100 votes.
It clearly depends on where and when you look for TAV as well, although I dare to assume that TAV are still not as polarizing as a certain black-haired character introduced in Days.

That's also a possibility, but also depends on how it is handled. Unlike anger stemming from RL sources, anger from virtual or otherwise non-crucial sources can be resolved by simply no longer giving that source any room in your life.
Then let's just agree to disagree on that one, as I obviously give many of the characters much more leeway than you do. ^__^

Answers truly are subjective however even among that subjected atmosphere any fan group can agree some things are pointless or not needing in answer. Naturally things that do warrant answers can also be answered and elaborated poorly leaving many dissatisfied.
The case in point of keyblades. Nothings wrong with elaboration, nothings wrong with them being weapons of mass destruction but things like inheritance ceremonies for example is answering something that already had an answer and worst yet it's a superfluous one proven by it's own story of Sora bypassing it. (you already have established from KH1 that the keybalde itself chooses, that was enough) (teachers and students also needed no elaboration as any tradesmen will seek out apprentices to carry on that trade which could've been the older masters reasoning)
The Xblade too, while good on paper, felt handled poorly. Not because it's original but because its kinda just cheap as hell.

Elaboration being poor (or at the wrong location) can by now probably considered a "staple" of this series I'd say.
The Keyblade issue was already discussed in detail elsewhere, so I'll keep this shorter. That the Keyblade itself chooses from KH 1 is not enough when the story calls for the Masters choosing their apprentices, as for example Xehanort deliberately chose Ventus to be his apprentice or Eraqus with Terra and Aqua, by having only the Keyblade chose the Masters would waste months if not even years of time actually finding those they can take as apprentices. Having an established "order" among the Keyblade Wielders and only the Keyblade itself choosing which adds a huge random factor to the whole scenario is mutually incompatible. If a Master had to choose an apprentice who might never get a Keyblade due to the thingy's moody and picky attitudes, it would lead to a huge waste of time and resources.
The Inheritance ceremony might not be the best possible solution for it, but they had to introduce an additional criteria beyond just "the Keyblade chooses" in order to allow Masters to actively search for and train apprentices instead of having to wait until they stumble upon a person who as been chosen by a Keyblade.
My main gripe with the X-blade is more that it is a) extremely ugly and unwieldy and b) comes over like the result of some satanistic ritual as hearts (and thus essences of living beings) have to be sacrificed to forge the damn thing.

Complex might be being friendly to it. I love Metal Gear, favorite series out there, but Kojima just loves to dump tons of exposition onto you explaining even the smallest details. That's not even to mention the whole post-modern style of MGS2's internal discussion on information control through the internet and passing memes onto the next generation.

Then you find out everything you know is a lie. But then, that's a theme of almost any Metal Gear.

I see, that sounds actually like Metal Gear is the exact opposite of KH in terms of how presentation and elaboration are handled.
If even details are embarassingly accurate explained in the games themselves, Metal Gear should be able to be followed by closely paying attention to the games alone.

 

[Michael Mario]

Honestly, all of the handheld games bar Coded would have fared better on the PS3. Days could have benefited from a sub-story mode that would have given the other Organization members more development since Roxas wouldn't care about them in the main story and allow Xion to not be a "Black Hole Sue", as her many haters peg her as. Birth By Sleep would have benefited from giving TAVS' overarching story lines more room to grow and their relationship to develop rather than having to take a backseat to Master Xehanort's plans reaching fruition. None of those things were remotely feasible to do on the DS and PSP, but would easy to handle on the PS3.

Last but not least, we have Dream Drop Distance... Well, this is kind of already one of the most flawed entries in the main series due to how clumsily they tried to tie Ansem and Xemnas's schemes into Master Xehanort's to the point of ignoring actually happened the first game entirely. They very clearly did NOT know about any overarching scheme Master Xehanort had in their respective games, and only Xemnas would know what his schemes with the Nobodies were since he had Xigbar there to keep him on track. That retcon just made Xehanort feel cheap- particularly because they could have at least given us that implication of Master Xehanort's Keyblade being the "will that is passed on" keeping the two semi-on-track without resorting to that retcon in DDD itself rather than wait until two years later IN AN HD COLLECTION...

...Other than that, more worlds than a meager 7 and an less insultingly empty La Cité des Cloches would have been nice. Kind of off-topic, but how do I quote more than one person in a single message and only quote the snippets I want?

 

[Anagram]

That it wouldn't hurt I can also see easily, yet when looking at the fact that Ventus was planned to look either like Sora or Roxas from the get go, I'd assume that a more visible distinguishing feature was not wanted by Nomura and the creators. It's not laziness or unprofessional handling but deliberately done this way.

Instances like these make me wonder if it would have been better to keep BBS for the PS2 or make it for the PS3 instead of the PSP. In these cases, they could have given the game a bigger overall scope to flesh things out.

It is laziness to a degree because even if he wanted their faces nearly identical the fact is still there that confusion happens due to apparently poorly conveyed personality differences. For there to be so much confusion of the two just shows that there wasn't enough to even distinguish them in personality for most. (you've corrected enough on the topic to know it true)

In all honesty I agree with Micheal Mario that most of the titles probably would've benefited better from a console position. BBS especially so but ya get what I mean. That spread of story, on confined formats at that, kinda made the issue of following the series even worse. If your main line is consoles then the handheld shouldn't be so plot heavy, it alienates those that'd actually wanna keep up with it.

If I have to be honest, even when not counting DDD into anything the "how much of it is Terra"-possibilities were to a large percentage just wishful thinking/overanalyzing by parts of the fandom. In both Xemnas and Ansem there are many actions and behaviours that can be 100% solely attributed to Xehanort-influence and a few which can be attributed to both Xehanort or Terra depending on interpretation, but I don't remember any action or behaviour that indicated solely Terra-influence.
The head-banging worthy issue with that one is that Xehanort admitting to miscalculations and actual failures on his part would be much more in line with the actual central premise of his character: Xehanort is clever, yes, he's also a good tactician, skilled schemer and manipulator, but he's also equipped with an insatiable curiosity (as Eraqus confirmed very vocally) who also likes to experiment and start a scheme/plan just to see what happens. If it doesn't work, Xehanort cuts his losses and comes up with something new very fast.
Xehanort being a good tactician can also mean that he's extremely gifted at improvisation and instead of having everything planned out and bragging about it he could just have admitted that his fetish for trying out things resulted in some failures but that he improvised to come out with no serious losses and has a new plan now.
Heck, this would make his callous speech to Mickey regarding the fates of the TAV-trio or the mess that was caused in KH I and II even more chilling and disgusting, as in this case all the suffering displayed there would have just happened because Xehanort (and his ax-crazy offshoots who inherited that trait from him) wanted to try out some stuff and see what happens. Not some convoluted Destiny and inevitable fate-stuff, lives got ruined left and right because Xehanort wanted to "play", and he has a new plan now to do it all over again.
For the sake of characterisation they could even have written a short cutscene in the Realm of Sleep where the revived Xehanort meets Ansem and Xemnas, explaining to them the flaws and mistakes in their respective plans. Bonus points if in a counter to that Ansem and Xemnas point out Xehanort's mistakes during his own BBS schemes and eventually all three come to the agreement to pool their resources together for a new plan.

This is true but in that same vain many things back then was nothing more than fan interpretation. BBS painted him as the typical saturday morning cartoon villain bidding for world domination so personality wasn't exactly expanded.
BUT, to be honest myself here, what mattered to me wasn't who's influence it was but that there was interpretation. It was fun to see discussions on who it could be and many on both sides had good points. While at the same time giving Ansem & Xemnas an air of individuality that they now seem to lack.

I know right? Xehanort was painted as some Aizen-tier character in DDD. (if you dont know who Aizen is count yourself blessed) By Aizen I mean someone that somehow, SOMEHOW, always knew you was "gonna do that" or "that was my plan all along" and other such bullshit. Basically someone with an impossible level of foresight, planning and seemingly godlike understanding of dozens of character personalities. (i.e. it's bad to make an aizen)
It would've fit his character so much better. Ansem & Xemnas both experimented for shits & giggles and you even see Xemnas loving the unexpected results (Xion). With the old Xehanort it's just thrown out now because he apparently knows somehow.
Ugh I hate the "fate card" these days. DDD only made me hate it more.
That scene would've been diddlying glorious. Nothing much, not even long, just a short hilarious moment as three sides of yourself take shots at each other for failures. lol

I dunno about actual groundbreaking developments though except maybe with Mickey, since the premise doesn't give much room for actual interactions. As for the big version of EoW of KH I I personally can only give a shoulder-shrug on that one as I never thought End of the world to be anything truly special. It's the typical boring gloom and doom-dungeion setting which is probably also the reason why my "excitement" for the Realm of Darkness itself ranges close to zero. I just can't get warm with such settings in general.
If that's really the main complaint about Ven it is strange that people seem to have no problem with playing Roxas, as that one plays even more like Sora, right down to the identical battle stance. As for Terra, well, while it is true that all three main characters from BBS have been handled less than stellar in the game, Terra arguably got the shortest stick out of them all. His voice actor being a newbie (and voice direction in KH being generally flawed) certainly only added fuel to the fire.
And yet I feel this also being only a small snapshot of (mostly) the western fanbase, as I recall in the last Famitsu character popularity poll that was done Aqua and Terra were among the top five (with Sora, Roxas and Axel), Ventus also still in the top 10 while Riku, who's hugely popular in the western fandom, didn't even get 100 votes.
It clearly depends on where and when you look for TAV as well, although I dare to assume that TAV are still not as polarizing as a certain black-haired character introduced in Days.

I dont expect anything groundbreaking lmao. I gave up any expectations of that level for this series years ago. haha
Let's just say I liked the EoW by comparison. Compared to the final levels of the other games in the series I felt an even greater "meh" than you do for the EoW itself. (especially TWTNW)
I'm more curious about the dark realm than anything. We've only seen a few areas and a beach. (gotta have some curiosity left or I wouldn't be here lol)

As far as Roxas goes I didn't mind him to much in KH2 (although his prologue was WAY to long) but as of Days I care for him even less than Ventus. For me Ven is nothing more than Roxas with Sora-syndrome or optimism while Roxas is nothing more than Sora filled with pessimism. It's just impossible for me to care anymore about what is basically three version of the same person. (tragic backstories be damned) (at least Ven had a unique fighting style to set himself apart, though wish they had stuck with the left-handed form)
I didn't care about his voice personally, not sure why so many do, but I do hate how he was handled worse. BBS already makes Xehanorts schemes impossibly straight on but Terra is made to be gullible. Sure he was sheltered, presumably, but after so many misadventures it's no longer lack of social experience but just plain gullibility.

You have amused me with that poll. Riku being so low on the totem pole is hilarious~ (also like seeing Aqua so popular)
Oh ho TAV is nowhere near as polarizing as Xion. Xion turned a game meant to explore Roxas and nobodies into being about her from Roxas' standpoint. (that's not counting the pains of the gameplay either)

The Keyblade issue was already discussed in detail elsewhere, so I'll keep this shorter. That the Keyblade itself chooses from KH 1 is not enough when the story calls for the Masters choosing their apprentices, as for example Xehanort deliberately chose Ventus to be his apprentice or Eraqus with Terra and Aqua, by having only the Keyblade chose the Masters would waste months if not even years of time actually finding those they can take as apprentices. Having an established "order" among the Keyblade Wielders and only the Keyblade itself choosing which adds a huge random factor to the whole scenario is mutually incompatible. If a Master had to choose an apprentice who might never get a Keyblade due to the thingy's moody and picky attitudes, it would lead to a huge waste of time and resources.
The Inheritance ceremony might not be the best possible solution for it, but they had to introduce an additional criteria beyond just "the Keyblade chooses" in order to allow Masters to actively search for and train apprentices instead of having to wait until they stumble upon a person who as been chosen by a Keyblade

Sir now we're just arguing things that can't be resolved. (though I probably shouldn't have mentioned it)

But if we're gonna do a brief swap: Before BBS we just knew the keyblade chose people. We had an example of Yen Sid & Mickey as master and student but nothing saying Yen Sid or masters chose an apprentice.
The fact remains that pre-BBS or even now the keyblade just choosing people was more than enough reasoning. It is only incompatible by the standards your using at that. When I mentioned masters seeking students I did so by calling them "teachers" meaning there would be no "order" to create a random factor. Another thing would've been they find people already chosen.
If they can sense potential wielders in the current set up then finding already chosen in another set up is far from far-fetched and would work.

The ceremony isn't the best solution and it's not a good one now. There is just no way to defend it when it's not better than randomly chosen set up with it's "criteria". A criteria that is also clearly faulted in it's own right when the keyblade can just bypass these said limitations (Sora or Terra and his ceremony with Riku) or when you have rogues (Xehanort) running about.
At every turn you have characters basically spitting in the face of these 'criteria' and rankings order of wielders making this set up a flawed one in contrast to the ambiguity of the old. (basically its one of those things that didn't require answers but got one adding to some of the over saturation of mythos)
(if it aint broke done fix it)

In the end the old "random choice" setup was acceptable, no issues, nothing contradicting or over saturated either. It's in all honesty a debate neither me or you will win. It's best to just agree to disagree now and drop it before we derail in a bad way.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

It is laziness to a degree because even if he wanted their faces nearly identical the fact is still there that confusion happens due to apparently poorly conveyed personality differences. For there to be so much confusion of the two just shows that there wasn't enough to even distinguish them in personality for most. (you've corrected enough on the topic to know it true)

In all honesty I agree with Micheal Mario that most of the titles probably would've benefited better from a console position. BBS especially so but ya get what I mean. That spread of story, on confined formats at that, kinda made the issue of following the series even worse. If your main line is consoles then the handheld shouldn't be so plot heavy, it alienates those that'd actually wanna keep up with it.

The laziness then lies however with the scenario and the writing again, not with the design choices. I don't know if one should consider it sad or hilarious that Jesse McCartney manages to differentiate Ventus and Roxas simply by using a different vocal range for a short single scene yet a whole game's scenario writing does not manage to get this across definitive enough.
Riku seems also to be very perceptive as he takes only a single second to realize Ven isn't Roxas when he sees him.

Yea, figures.
It's really somewhat facepalm-worthy as Nomura repeatedly stated that BBS is supposed to be equal to the main numbered titles in scope, yet the PSP obviously didn't allow that kind of scope and while BBS had set some interesting premises, nearly none of them was truly fleshed out as it could have been.

This is true but in that same vain many things back then was nothing more than fan interpretation. BBS painted him as the typical saturday morning cartoon villain bidding for world domination so personality wasn't exactly expanded.
BUT, to be honest myself here, what mattered to me wasn't who's influence it was but that there was interpretation. It was fun to see discussions on who it could be and many on both sides had good points. While at the same time giving Ansem & Xemnas an air of individuality that they now seem to lack.

I know right? Xehanort was painted as some Aizen-tier character in DDD. (if you dont know who Aizen is count yourself blessed) By Aizen I mean someone that somehow, SOMEHOW, always knew you was "gonna do that" or "that was my plan all along" and other such bullshit. Basically someone with an impossible level of foresight, planning and seemingly godlike understanding of dozens of character personalities. (i.e. it's bad to make an aizen)
It would've fit his character so much better. Ansem & Xemnas both experimented for shits & giggles and you even see Xemnas loving the unexpected results (Xion). With the old Xehanort it's just thrown out now because he apparently knows somehow.
Ugh I hate the "fate card" these days. DDD only made me hate it more.
That scene would've been diddlying glorious. Nothing much, not even long, just a short hilarious moment as three sides of yourself take shots at each other for failures. lol

Yep, and yet as the series marches on in some areas and topics some fan interpretations get invariably designated as true and others as false when this particular field of contest gets finally an official interpretation. This is something that is inevitable at some point when you got a constant overaching story that still moves on.
KH 1 also painted Ansem as a nutjob who wanted to destroy everything with his Heartless legions and longed for "supreme Darkness", lol, that sounds also much like a saturday morning cartoon villain, so BBS MX actually kept in line with that.
The discussions were something interesting to follow, no doubt, as is the fact that both sides had some valid points with the knowledge we had at that time. Still, I also remember in these very discussions being voices who longed for the issue to be finally addressed and cleared up by official material. The issue was addressed and cleared up to a certain degree by official material, proving the side with the interpretation that doubts any significant Terra-influence being present as having the "better" points.
How many different interpretations and discussions were there about topics between KH I/CoM and KH II that in the end lost the potential for further discussions down the line because KH II delivered an official interpretation for that specific issue?

That Ansem and Xemnas now "lack" individuality comes primarily from the fact though that their plans in KH 1 and Days/KH 2 are delegated to be subplans of Master Xehanort's design instead of their own with MX's overall goal just in the back with some messed up memories.
If the notion of Ansem's and/or Xemnas' "individualty" would come from the question how much each of their actions is influenced by either Xehanort or Terra, I would assert that they still lack individuality all the same because having your actions influenced by two other persons instead of just one does not make much of a difference.


While I don't know Aizen, I do know another Disney character who's very similar to Xehanort in regards of almost always coming out on top even if he seemingly loses: David Xanatos from the Disney TV-Series Gargoyles who is also a master schemer and manipulator, capable of reading most character's personalities and has a very high level of planning skills. He's different from Xehanort though in that he does have some redeeming qualities which come into play later in the series and instead of using "foresight" or destiny he is one who seeks to provide for all contingencies when making plans and if there is really something unexpected happening, he is so quick in thinking that he can twist it somehow that if it does not benefit him, it also does not really harm him in any way.
The premise of Xehanort's character was laid out to be something similar and it certainly would fit with what the series as a whole before DDD has shown. With the X-blade-forging process being revealed to be different, the events of BBS done by old Xehanort may also fall into "experimenting for shits & giggles" territory and additionally make all his victims casualties of the same overall source: Xehanort's curiosity without regards for anything screwing them over. It would make Master Xehanort, Ansem and Xemnas consistent without elevating MX to a higher-tier super villain.
The only half-way decent explanation that the series can possibly give for MX's impossible level of foresight now is that he either has access to parts of the tome of prophecy or that he somehow has access to the "eye of the future" ability of the Grand Master.
Likewise, I've never liked the stupid "because Destiny/Fate says so"-card to begin with.
I'm certainly not a fan of Seifer, but this quote from him sums up my own stance towards Destiny pretty well: "Destiny... In that case, let's be friends. I don't feel like cooperating with destiny."

Indeed, lol, and another bonus would be that Ansem & Xemnas would not be just MX's servants/enforcers, but they would all form a big bad triumvirate for the finale, each of them bringing in their best assets to outbalance the "failures" of the other two.

I dont expect anything groundbreaking lmao. I gave up any expectations of that level for this series years ago. haha
Let's just say I liked the EoW by comparison. Compared to the final levels of the other games in the series I felt an even greater "meh" than you do for the EoW itself. (especially TWTNW)
I'm more curious about the dark realm than anything. We've only seen a few areas and a beach. (gotta have some curiosity left or I wouldn't be here lol)

As far as Roxas goes I didn't mind him to much in KH2 (although his prologue was WAY to long) but as of Days I care for him even less than Ventus. For me Ven is nothing more than Roxas with Sora-syndrome or optimism while Roxas is nothing more than Sora filled with pessimism. It's just impossible for me to care anymore about what is basically three version of the same person. (tragic backstories be damned) (at least Ven had a unique fighting style to set himself apart, though wish they had stuck with the left-handed form)
I didn't care about his voice personally, not sure why so many do, but I do hate how he was handled worse. BBS already makes Xehanorts schemes impossibly straight on but Terra is made to be gullible. Sure he was sheltered, presumably, but after so many misadventures it's no longer lack of social experience but just plain gullibility.

You have amused me with that poll. Riku being so low on the totem pole is hilarious~ (also like seeing Aqua so popular)
Oh ho TAV is nowhere near as polarizing as Xion. Xion turned a game meant to explore Roxas and nobodies into being about her from Roxas' standpoint. (that's not counting the pains of the gameplay either)

My expectations for the series were honestly never that high to begin with as I always considered KH more like a fun idealistic fairy-tale ride to enjoy rather than something dead serious. I do not delve into the lore and mysteries of the series because I take them dead seriously, but because it is fun to connect the dots, even if these are scattered around far too wide for the regular follower.
I guess that comes from the issue that I do not really like "doomsday"-settings in general, which is also why the Keyblade Graveyard is not really that appealing to me to begin with. I'm more someone who's into beautiful and/or impressive settings, which is why BBS-Radiant Garden, Daybreak Town, Twilight Town, Symphony of Sorcery or TWTNW are more my cup of tea design- and atmosphere-wise.
I'd rather explore many of the Gardens, fountains and streets in locales like decribed above than run through endless same-looking bridges of dark "tentacles" like in the RoD, dusty and dull rock formations like the Graveyard or piles of weird-colored ruins like EoW.
What makes you deduce that the dark realm is really more than that though? As far as I've seen the landscape of the RoD is the same everywhere.

For Roxas in KH 2 I'm actually more on the opposite view of things. Except for the occassional tear running from Sora's cheek or "holding crystal into the sun"-moment Roxas completely disappears from the story in KH 2 until the very last world, so his Prologue is practically the only instance where this character actually gets some focus at all (if you go by the premise that Days should never have existed).
If we would get a different Days that actually focuses properly on Roxas instead of making him a spectator on the sidelines for the Xion-show, I'd be game for cutting off some edges from the Prologue though like the whole searching for wonders bit.

I see, although I'd say that is looking not far beyond the surface even when not counting the "tragic backstories", I'll refrain from open another can of worms here.
I can't find it at the moment, but I recall that somewhere it was stated that Sora, Ven and Roxas, Vanitas were supposed to contrast by portraying extremes and middle-grounds.
Sora was supposed to be the positive extreme, all cheerful and optimistic.
Ventus was supposed to be the positive middle-ground, with optimism and friendliness prevalent but not as heavy as Sora and with occassional moody bits.
Roxas was supposed to be the negative middle-ground, often moody and pessimistic but with the occassional bright spots.
Vanitas was supposed to be the negative extreme, taking Roxas' negative traits up to eleven without any of the positives.

Ven's battle style certainly sets him apart from both Sora and Roxas, also in the department that he relies almost fully on agility, speed and quick but low-damage hits while Roxas is almost complete unrestrained offensive and Sora goes in like a tank with heavy two handed hits.
Looking at this, I realize that in terms of style, Sora actually has more similarities to Terra than to Ven.
About Ven being a lefty I actually wonder why they bothered to change this, not only do we not have a left-handed KH original character yet, it would also have served as another distinctive trait for Ven beyond his backhand-wielding.
With that they could evenly have made a case for Roxas being ambidextrous by default due to Sora being right-handed and Ven being a lefty.

I'm not too bothered with Jason Dohring's performance either, he also improved over the course of BBS itself and his portrayal of Terra gets better the later in the game you are.
Well, in some parts Terra might be supposed to be slightly gullible, Peter Pan even specifically calls him out on that, but BBS clearly overdoes it on that part.
Having Amano look over BBS' whole script would probably have done wonders for its coherence, and by now I'm actually wondering if BBS as a whole suffered not only because it was moved from PS2 to PSP, but also because its development was often interrupted by other things like i.e. the Osaka team making Re: Chain of Memories etc.
I remember Nomura stating that the development of BBS started first after KH 2 Final Mix (well duh, initially it was the only title Nomura planned to make), but out of the "handheld"-trinity it was the last one to be released due to many breaks in the development process.

I'm glad I managed to amuse you, but honestly I'm a little annoyed since I cannot seem to find the source of this poll anymore and I hate stating unsourced stuff. I know it was that big Famitsu survey Nomura even gave an interview about, but I don't remember where the actual character-rankings beyond the top five (Sora, Roxas, Axel, Aqua, Terra) were released and where the bit with Riku having less than 100 votes comes from.
Then again though, even that survey certainly pictured only a fraction of the whole worldwide fanbase just like anything stated here on KHInsider does as well.
I'm curious what makes Riku being so low so hilarious in your view, as when looking around the net I've found plenty of fans who are still sour about Riku with the stuff he did in KH 1 as well as him kidnapping Roxas and ensuring that he disappears. Not the most wellfounded reasons I know, but they're there. One thing I've also noticed is that many people actually do not really look at how well-developed a character is or take it even as a truly valuable criteria, but rather tend to judge how likeable a character is by their behaviour and actions. If a character does something that results in bad things for their absolute favorite character, that character tends to get hate no matter what the reasons were. DiZ is also a prime example of this mindset.

Xion being an one-entity spotlight-stealing squad is my main gripe about her as well. I'm certainly not a Xion hater, but the way how she was handled was just abysmal.

Sir now we're just arguing things that can't be resolved. (though I probably shouldn't have mentioned it)

But if we're gonna do a brief swap: Before BBS we just knew the keyblade chose people. We had an example of Yen Sid & Mickey as master and student but nothing saying Yen Sid or masters chose an apprentice.
The fact remains that pre-BBS or even now the keyblade just choosing people was more than enough reasoning. It is only incompatible by the standards your using at that. When I mentioned masters seeking students I did so by calling them "teachers" meaning there would be no "order" to create a random factor. Another thing would've been they find people already chosen.
If they can sense potential wielders in the current set up then finding already chosen in another set up is far from far-fetched and would work.

The ceremony isn't the best solution and it's not a good one now. There is just no way to defend it when it's not better than randomly chosen set up with it's "criteria". A criteria that is also clearly faulted in it's own right when the keyblade can just bypass these said limitations (Sora or Terra and his ceremony with Riku) or when you have rogues (Xehanort) running about.
At every turn you have characters basically spitting in the face of these 'criteria' and rankings order of wielders making this set up a flawed one in contrast to the ambiguity of the old. (basically its one of those things that didn't require answers but got one adding to some of the over saturation of mythos)
(if it aint broke done fix it)

In the end the old "random choice" setup was acceptable, no issues, nothing contradicting or over saturated either. It's in all honesty a debate neither me or you will win. It's best to just agree to disagree now and drop it before we derail in a bad way.

Derp, I noticed the same thing after I had already posted, lol.
As for Yen Sid being Mickey's master, don't forget that Yen Sid being a retired Keyblade Master was also something established only in BBS. In KH 2, there was only the fact that Yen Sid is Mickey's teacher, which at that time might have meant strictly magic just like Merlin is Sora's teacher in the magic department.

All correct Sir when you throw out all details and get just to the general setup, so lets drop this one.

 

[BlackOsprey]

I know this will probably sound like a baseless what-if scenario, but... about Xehanort's "It was all meeee!" retcon, do think it's possible that he was bluffing about planning and predicting everything? Sure, Xehanort is a Chess Master villain and a pretty good strategist, but even brilliant strategists need to readjust their plans from time to time, because unpredictable stuff can always come straight out of nowhere. Xehanort's known to simply cut his losses and try a different route whenever it doesn't work out, and it's possible that he saw a whole lot of convenient circumstances lying around from his previous botched plans and decided to connect the dots there, rather than hatching a brand-new scheme all over again. Convenient especially so because he could take advantage of time travel to utilize those events for different purposes than before.

Of course he would play the "destiny" card with the heroes. He really, really wants whatever a Keyblade War will bring to happen, so why not manipulate some more people and beat in the idea that it's 100% unavoidable?

I know the games so far haven't given us any reason to not take the words at face value (other than how ridiculous the planning and predicting became), but it's just a thought.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

I know this will probably sound like a baseless what-if scenario, but... about Xehanort's "It was all meeee!" retcon, do think it's possible that he was bluffing about planning and predicting everything? Sure, Xehanort is a Chess Master villain and a pretty good strategist, but even brilliant strategists need to readjust their plans from time to time, because unpredictable stuff can always come straight out of nowhere. Xehanort's known to simply cut his losses and try a different route whenever it doesn't work out, and it's possible that he saw a whole lot of convenient circumstances lying around from his previous botched plans and decided to connect the dots there, rather than hatching a brand-new scheme all over again. Convenient especially so because he could take advantage of time travel to utilize those events for different purposes than before.

Of course he would play the "destiny" card with the heroes. He really, really wants whatever a Keyblade War will bring to happen, so why not manipulate some more people and beat in the idea that it's 100% unavoidable?

I know the games so far haven't given us any reason to not take the words at face value (other than how ridiculous the planning and predicting became), but it's just a thought.

No, that's actually a good view on the whole issue.
Xehanort is not known to be the most truthful person in any case and the whole schtick of it being "destiny" can easily also be only an excuse brought up for his crimes by Xehanort.

 

[Anagram]

The laziness then lies however with the scenario and the writing again, not with the design choices. I don't know if one should consider it sad or hilarious that Jesse McCartney manages to differentiate Ventus and Roxas simply by using a different vocal range for a short single scene yet a whole game's scenario writing does not manage to get this across definitive enough.
Riku seems also to be very perceptive as he takes only a single second to realize Ven isn't Roxas when he sees him.

I'm afraid it still falls to Nomura to some extents due to his choice of the design and that he generally overlooks this writing last I remember. In the end, even if slight, there's laziness on most involved.
I attribute Rikus moment to DDDs attempt to clarify things. It went out of its way to explain things so me thinks this was just Nomura slightly trying to say "damn it kids these two are different!"

Yep, and yet as the series marches on in some areas and topics some fan interpretations get invariably designated as true and others as false when this particular field of contest gets finally an official interpretation. This is something that is inevitable at some point when you got a constant overaching story that still moves on.
KH 1 also painted Ansem as a nutjob who wanted to destroy everything with his Heartless legions and longed for "supreme Darkness", lol, that sounds also much like a saturday morning cartoon villain, so BBS MX actually kept in line with that.
The discussions were something interesting to follow, no doubt, as is the fact that both sides had some valid points with the knowledge we had at that time. Still, I also remember in these very discussions being voices who longed for the issue to be finally addressed and cleared up by official material. The issue was addressed and cleared up to a certain degree by official material, proving the side with the interpretation that doubts any significant Terra-influence being present as having the "better" points.
How many different interpretations and discussions were there about topics between KH I/CoM and KH II that in the end lost the potential for further discussions down the line because KH II delivered an official interpretation for that specific issue?

It's sadly the cause of kids crying retcon right and left when there was little established to retcon. Many more cry plot hole only for me to quote the words actual definition and embarrass them. (srsly how do people not know its proper meaning?)
That KH1 did but it wasn't really a problem as the starting point. After turning into a series it felt like it was building more than that only for it to go back to Saturday morning villain plot. (kinda like they threw out any development, if there was any, or ideas they had)
I must've been rare because the only interpretation I think should've been clarified was the amnesia. Even now that remains one thing that actually could've used elaboration. Everything else would've been fine.
Man I don't even know. There was so many from KH1 up until the handhelds appeared (Days) that it'd be impossible to count. There was so many on Xehanort specifically that people just got more burned out and uncaring of his character than there was discussions officially stated.

That Ansem and Xemnas now "lack" individuality comes primarily from the fact though that their plans in KH 1 and Days/KH 2 are delegated to be subplans of Master Xehanort's design instead of their own with MX's overall goal just in the back with some messed up memories.
If the notion of Ansem's and/or Xemnas' "individualty" would come from the question how much each of their actions is influenced by either Xehanort or Terra, I would assert that they still lack individuality all the same because having your actions influenced by two other persons instead of just one does not make much of a difference.

This is rather ironic to read when I've seen you argue they have individuality over just being puppets now.
It's honestly a semantic to argue. You say that even without being subplots they lacked individuality when it's honestly them being subplots that take their individuality away.

When it was their own plans rather than Xehanorts it gave them individuality. The fact you had so much debate on what was Terra's influence, Xehanorts, or their own warped minds showed it. Yes if they had individuality they didn't have much since they were obviously driven by most Xehanorts desires but they still had more then than they do now because at the time they was acting on those desires in their own ways.
They were basically doing Xehanorts plan their way which gave them more air of individual mindset. Now it's just Xehanorts mindset controlling them.

While I don't know Aizen, I do know another Disney character who's very similar to Xehanort in regards of almost always coming out on top even if he seemingly loses: David Xanatos from the Disney TV-Series Gargoyles who is also a master schemer and manipulator, capable of reading most character's personalities and has a very high level of planning skills. He's different from Xehanort though in that he does have some redeeming qualities which come into play later in the series and instead of using "foresight" or destiny he is one who seeks to provide for all contingencies when making plans and if there is really something unexpected happening, he is so quick in thinking that he can twist it somehow that if it does not benefit him, it also does not really harm him in any way.
The premise of Xehanort's character was laid out to be something similar and it certainly would fit with what the series as a whole before DDD has shown. With the X-blade-forging process being revealed to be different, the events of BBS done by old Xehanort may also fall into "experimenting for shits & giggles" territory and additionally make all his victims casualties of the same overall source: Xehanort's curiosity without regards for anything screwing them over. It would make Master Xehanort, Ansem and Xemnas consistent without elevating MX to a higher-tier super villain.
The only half-way decent explanation that the series can possibly give for MX's impossible level of foresight now is that he either has access to parts of the tome of prophecy or that he somehow has access to the "eye of the future" ability of the Grand Master.
Likewise, I've never liked the stupid "because Destiny/Fate says so"-card to begin with.
I'm certainly not a fan of Seifer, but this quote from him sums up my own stance towards Destiny pretty well: "Destiny... In that case, let's be friends. I don't feel like cooperating with destiny."

Indeed, lol, and another bonus would be that Ansem & Xemnas would not be just MX's servants/enforcers, but they would all form a big bad triumvirate for the finale, each of them bringing in their best assets to outbalance the "failures" of the other two.

lol Man to me Xanatos is a great character. To compare him to Xehanort or especially Aizen is a great character insult. The main difference between Aizen and the other two is that somehow EVERYTHING is a part of Aizens plan, there are no contingencies or fail safes.
Xehanort, as if DDD, is like this now as well. While he's things you listed he's also just a troll "lol planned it" or "it was fate".
Xanatos on the other hand was exactly as you said. Incredibly intelligent but he was also portrayed human, he made errors and learned from it. He was also shown human emotions such as love for a wife and child despite his villainous nature. If his planned failed he just figured "oh well" and took what he could from the failure. (which was always something)
His skill for improvisation also allowed him to adapt to moments quickly and scheme. Which is also a human trait even if it's a bit rare.

That would've truly fit better and held consistency with his character. The fact that he needs explanation for completely inhuman foresight is bad. However another explanation I've seen that would work is that he simply regained YXs repressed memories during DDD since it was no longer his future but now present. (it's not a foolproof explanation but in all honesty there's no way for that time travel set up to have one)

A triumvirate would've worked so much better too. T_T

My expectations for the series were honestly never that high to begin with as I always considered KH more like a fun idealistic fairy-tale ride to enjoy rather than something dead serious. I do not delve into the lore and mysteries of the series because I take them dead seriously, but because it is fun to connect the dots, even if these are scattered around far too wide for the regular follower.
I guess that comes from the issue that I do not really like "doomsday"-settings in general, which is also why the Keyblade Graveyard is not really that appealing to me to begin with. I'm more someone who's into beautiful and/or impressive settings, which is why BBS-Radiant Garden, Daybreak Town, Twilight Town, Symphony of Sorcery or TWTNW are more my cup of tea design- and atmosphere-wise.
I'd rather explore many of the Gardens, fountains and streets in locales like decribed above than run through endless same-looking bridges of dark "tentacles" like in the RoD, dusty and dull rock formations like the Graveyard or piles of weird-colored ruins like EoW.
What makes you deduce that the dark realm is really more than that though? As far as I've seen the landscape of the RoD is the same everywhere.

Your not the only one. I liked it a lot in the beginning but it wasn't like a serious ordeal. A fun game to play and to talk about. Also like you I delved into lore and discussions of it, like many back then, because it was fun. However it's lost that fun. Like Audo I think it's about best to take the "author is dead" approach and interpret it your own way that can still make it enjoyable to you. (since I can say in honesty the more I delved/learned the more I hated it)

We're similar then. I don't dislike doomsday settings and while I like beautiful ones I mostly just wanna be impressed. And so far the only end world level j found impressive even if only by comparison to the rest is EoW.
That's just it though sir. All you can do IS deduce. We've only seen scraps so that realm could be far more. I don't expect it to be, don't get me wrong. I can't have expectations for these series anymore but there's enough unknown about the Dark Realm to hold some slight intrigue. It could be another full wasteland or some vast surprise.

For Roxas in KH 2 I'm actually more on the opposite view of things. Except for the occassional tear running from Sora's cheek or "holding crystal into the sun"-moment Roxas completely disappears from the story in KH 2 until the very last world, so his Prologue is practically the only instance where this character actually gets some focus at all (if you go by the premise that Days should never have existed).
If we would get a different Days that actually focuses properly on Roxas instead of making him a spectator on the sidelines for the Xion-show, I'd be game for cutting off some edges from the Prologue though like the whole searching for wonders bit.

Truly opposite because I cared not even for Soras "Roxas moments". What I preferred of that initial KH2 was his reasonings. He simply wanted to know and left the Org for it. Days takes him on some random emo/angsty teen ride when he shouldn't even be mentally old enough for teen drama.
In KH2 I could take him seriously, now I can not. To me he felt like someone that needed no elaboration. Beyond a few more scenes in Kh2. (perhaps Skra having dream moments like Rkxas did of Sora)

I see, although I'd say that is looking not far beyond the surface even when not counting the "tragic backstories", I'll refrain from open another can of worms here.
I can't find it at the moment, but I recall that somewhere it was stated that Sora, Ven and Roxas, Vanitas were supposed to contrast by portraying extremes and middle-grounds.
Sora was supposed to be the positive extreme, all cheerful and optimistic.
Ventus was supposed to be the positive middle-ground, with optimism and friendliness prevalent but not as heavy as Sora and with occassional moody bits.
Roxas was supposed to be the negative middle-ground, often moody and pessimistic but with the occassional bright spots.
Vanitas was supposed to be the negative extreme, taking Roxas' negative traits up to eleven without any of the positives.

Ven's battle style certainly sets him apart from both Sora and Roxas, also in the department that he relies almost fully on agility, speed and quick but low-damage hits while Roxas is almost complete unrestrained offensive and Sora goes in like a tank with heavy two handed hits.
Looking at this, I realize that in terms of style, Sora actually has more similarities to Terra than to Ven.
About Ven being a lefty I actually wonder why they bothered to change this, not only do we not have a left-handed KH original character yet, it would also have served as another distinctive trait for Ven beyond his backhand-wielding.
With that they could evenly have made a case for Roxas being ambidextrous by default due to Sora being right-handed and Ven being a lefty.

That kinda disappoints me more since it shows just how much thought was put into making what is basically four yet slightly different versions of the same character rather than putting more thought into distinguishing them as more original. After all having connected characters is fine but not to this great extent.

I'm not sure either. Lefties are a largely rare trait in games and I'm unsure why. The only one I know off hand is Link from the Legend of Zelda series. (although he's portrayed as a righty sometimes too)

I'm not too bothered with Jason Dohring's performance either, he also improved over the course of BBS itself and his portrayal of Terra gets better the later in the game you are.
Well, in some parts Terra might be supposed to be slightly gullible, Peter Pan even specifically calls him out on that, but BBS clearly overdoes it on that part.
Having Amano look over BBS' whole script would probably have done wonders for its coherence, and by now I'm actually wondering if BBS as a whole suffered not only because it was moved from PS2 to PSP, but also because its development was often interrupted by other things like i.e. the Osaka team making Re: Chain of Memories etc.
I remember Nomura stating that the development of BBS started first after KH 2 Final Mix (well duh, initially it was the only title Nomura planned to make), but out of the "handheld"-trinity it was the last one to be released due to many breaks in the development process.

I'm glad I managed to amuse you, but honestly I'm a little annoyed since I cannot seem to find the source of this poll anymore and I hate stating unsourced stuff. I know it was that big Famitsu survey Nomura even gave an interview about, but I don't remember where the actual character-rankings beyond the top five (Sora, Roxas, Axel, Aqua, Terra) were released and where the bit with Riku having less than 100 votes comes from.
Then again though, even that survey certainly pictured only a fraction of the whole worldwide fanbase just like anything stated here on KHInsider does as well.
I'm curious what makes Riku being so low so hilarious in your view, as when looking around the net I've found plenty of fans who are still sour about Riku with the stuff he did in KH 1 as well as him kidnapping Roxas and ensuring that he disappears. Not the most wellfounded reasons I know, but they're there. One thing I've also noticed is that many people actually do not really look at how well-developed a character is or take it even as a truly valuable criteria, but rather tend to judge how likeable a character is by their behaviour and actions. If a character does something that results in bad things for their absolute favorite character, that character tends to get hate no matter what the reasons were. DiZ is also a prime example of this mindset.

I'm sure BBs greatly suffered from the unexpected Days, Coded and system shift. Much like how KH2 suffered from rushing. You can clearly tell there was a slightly or maybe even largely different story in mind for BbS from its initial concepts (unbirth) and early scenes and trailers ("evil Terra").

I'm mostly amused due to all the character debates I've seen here over the years. lol

Xion being an one-entity spotlight-stealing squad is my main gripe about her as well. I'm certainly not a Xion hater, but the way how she was handled was just abysmal.

I was a hater initially but the manga showed me she could've been handled in manners that even I could enjoy. In the game I was glad she died because I knew I was almost done with the damn game. In the manga I actually cared she died because she and nearly everyone was developed and likable.

 

[gelandporn]

I haven't had the time to read many of these responses, and I don't mean to avert the healthy discussion that is going on, but in light of the most recent chi update, I've decided to expand/alter this theory. First, as I was saying in another thread:

Keep in mind that Riku never encountered Sora within Sora's dreams aside from a few "holographic" instances.

So the likelihood is that if the Daybreak Town in chi is someone's dream within a dream, that particular someone has not shown up thus far in the game. It wouldn't surprise me if that was the big reveal at the end. Whoever this person is, they are almost certainly real (ie not a dream!person) and they've entered the Sleeping Worlds for some reason.

But like with Sora, we've got people invading their dreams. Ephemera is either a special type of dream entity a la Joshua who can pass freely between the different tiers of dreams or he is a real person. This ability is akin to flying like the seeds of a dandelion, not being chained down to one dream. And it's implied by Ava that one can acquire this ability.

So hard to say whether Ephemera is real or not. We know that dream figures can break free from the dreams they originate from--Dream Eaters have been shown to even manifest in the real world. As an aside, amusingly, if this theory is correct that chi takes place in a dream within a dream, then when Ephemera appears to the Player in her or his dream, it's a dream within a dream within a dream lol.

I think probably the most interesting takeaway from this is that, again assuming the theory is true, then the Player and other keyblade wielders are going around collecting the light and/or guilt of one person , the dreamer. I wonder what they're so guilty about...

Now I left the question open as to who that person is, but obbbvvioussllyyy, I'm going to tailor it to this theory, heh.

So! Kairi! Everyone's in Kairi's dreams! She entered the Sleeping Worlds and now chi takes place in her dreams.
There's some evidence for and against this.

One of the most striking things about Daybreak Town is that, if it's in a dream
... Where all my Nightmares at? After all, Nightmares appear to far outnumber Spirits in 3D, yet this is flipped in chi.

I answer that with another question: What would the dreams of a Princess of Heart look like? Given their pure hearts, I don't see much room for Nightmares (Darkness) to be running around.

Of course, there's one big rebuttal to this--aren't Spirits technically Darkness? Yen Sid says that Dream Eaters are the form Darkness takes in the Sleeping Worlds, and Spirits are Dream Eaters sooooo... The transitive property. Yeah.

I think there's room to argue that Spirits might actually be light-based. "Consume the darkness, return it to light." But if that isn't your cup of tea, there's actually a couple ways to get around the presence of darkness inside Kairi:

1.) An outside influence. It isn't Kairi's darkness per se, but the darkness of an individual(s) who has entered her dream and is infecting it. Like with the dark Chirithy.

2.) Namine! Remember, Namine returned to Kairi so it would make sense that she would now harbor some of Namine's darkness as well. The implication here is interesting, though, because I'm not sure if Kairi still qualifies then as a Princess of Heart if she isn't pure-hearted. Can you lose that title? It hasn't been addressed but I can see it being an issue.

Further, Namine's influence would go toward explaining another presence in the game: guilt. There's something to be said about the possibility that Kairi might feel guilty about having to be saved in KH1/KH2---and perhaps that is part of her trial. To go beyond that, like Riku did with his darkness, and recognize your own strength and that you have agency.

Namine would obviously be an even stronger explanation, given that she is arguably one of the most guilt-ridden characters in the series. Sora has to deal with the lingering emotions of Roxas, why wouldn't Kairi also bear the burden of what Namine had to go through?

Lastly, just wanted to point out that the Heartless aren't actually Heartless. As we know, Heartless cannot appear in the Sleeping Worlds. And given that these Heartless release light rather than hearts, they're probably just an illusion from the dreams. Though, why the player is being incentivized to go around and collect Kairi's light... That I haven't hashed out yet.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

I'm afraid it still falls to Nomura to some extents due to his choice of the design and that he generally overlooks this writing last I remember. In the end, even if slight, there's laziness on most involved.
I attribute Rikus moment to DDDs attempt to clarify things. It went out of its way to explain things so me thinks this was just Nomura slightly trying to say "damn it kids these two are different!"

It's sadly the cause of kids crying retcon right and left when there was little established to retcon. Many more cry plot hole only for me to quote the words actual definition and embarrass them. (srsly how do people not know its proper meaning?)
That KH1 did but it wasn't really a problem as the starting point. After turning into a series it felt like it was building more than that only for it to go back to Saturday morning villain plot. (kinda like they threw out any development, if there was any, or ideas they had)
I must've been rare because the only interpretation I think should've been clarified was the amnesia. Even now that remains one thing that actually could've used elaboration. Everything else would've been fine.
Man I don't even know. There was so many from KH1 up until the handhelds appeared (Days) that it'd be impossible to count. There was so many on Xehanort specifically that people just got more burned out and uncaring of his character than there was discussions officially stated.

This is rather ironic to read when I've seen you argue they have individuality over just being puppets now.
It's honestly a semantic to argue. You say that even without being subplots they lacked individuality when it's honestly them being subplots that take their individuality away.

When it was their own plans rather than Xehanorts it gave them individuality. The fact you had so much debate on what was Terra's influence, Xehanorts, or their own warped minds showed it. Yes if they had individuality they didn't have much since they were obviously driven by most Xehanorts desires but they still had more then than they do now because at the time they was acting on those desires in their own ways.
They were basically doing Xehanorts plan their way which gave them more air of individual mindset. Now it's just Xehanorts mindset controlling them.

The approach to write the story and scenario around the game system and often last is actually something I don't really understand. Normally one would think that if you have an overaching story, it should take priority over gameplay-decisions and steps should be taken to ensure coherence.
Lol, you might not even be too off with this one as I remember Nomura stating in one of the earlier interviews about DDD that the ending will have the "longest cutscene" in the entire series and explain/reveal many things. And strictly spoken, the moment Riku sets foot on the Destiny Islands inside Sora's heart where he meets Roxas, Ven and Xion, then talks with Ansem the Wise and gets to hear a whole exposition dump before getting that bottle, is one single long cutscene. I think it even has its own entry in the cutscene theater.

Of course, it's easier to cry retcon or plot hole instead of admitting that there wasn't something substantial established before and one's own opinion/interpretation on this is just that, an opinion that got invalidated by later clarification, not retconning.
As for people not knowing the proper meaning, many people have actually no real idea on writing terms or methods, others also simply don't care but use the terms to conveniently decry facts or developments they don't like regardless if the term even applies in the given case.
This use of these terms has gotten so bad that the term "retcon" itself has by now almost solely a negative connotation in public view despite a retcon not being always bad.

That's it though, it was all murky and vague, another thing that could have been a thing, hence some feelings that there is buildup, but there was never anything truly substantial, as the very first "Xehanort" we were introduced to, the so-called "Apprentice" Xehanort, never got any true coverage beyond one single scene in KH 2 and one in Blank Points, and by now he's almost non-existant and it is even doubtable if he ever was a being on his own at all since all importance of the "middle-aged" Xehanort was split between Terra-Xehanort (with MX in control) and Ansem SoD.
It's funny since the amnesia thing is one of those things that still hangs in the air despite the very first scene of DDD with Braig and "Xehanort". The Goat-blade being revealed to have a will also doesn't help as this opens up possible more wormcans.
Well, on one hand there also wasn't much else to discuss about because Nomura managed to have nearly every other major character that's not Xehanort either incapacitated so throroughly that there isn't any premise to discuss what their role in the story could be (all the tormented ones), sidelined so much that there isn't any basis (like Kairi, Donald or Goofy) or who is often so much out of the loop that discussions going beyond "will he be named finally a Keyblade Master" or "will he become a Darkness after all" are almost pointless (Sora).

Uh, I apologize if that came over wrong, I never meant to imply that I consider Ansem and Xemnas to have no own will anymore, as I still believe they do to an extent just like Xigbar/Braig does.
Egh, no, I didn't mean to imply that they lacked "individuality" from the get go, but that adding the "Terra-influence"-bit would be no help of showing off/making their "individuality" more palpable, because it would still not be "Ansem" or "Xemnas" doing anything, but instead of "Xehanort ordered/influenced this action" in 100% of cases (which I still believe wasn't always the case) it would occassionally be "Terra ordered/influenced this action".

When going by your viewpoint that Ansem and Xemnas are just puppets, bringing just the example with the "Terra-influence" would not change anything except that occassionally the remote switched owners.

Or Tl;dr: The Problem is not that they clarified there truly was no active Terra-influence existing, it's solely making their plans and actions from KH 1 and Days/KH 2 being not their own creations but laid out by Master Xehanort from the shadows what takes some of their credibility away.

The debate of what was Xehanort's influence and what was from their own minds could still be continued if the plans remained being their own creations, only the point of Terra-influence would fall out of the equation and that one was always ambigious to begin with.

lol Man to me Xanatos is a great character. To compare him to Xehanort or especially Aizen is a great character insult. The main difference between Aizen and the other two is that somehow EVERYTHING is a part of Aizens plan, there are no contingencies or fail safes.
Xehanort, as if DDD, is like this now as well. While he's things you listed he's also just a troll "lol planned it" or "it was fate".
Xanatos on the other hand was exactly as you said. Incredibly intelligent but he was also portrayed human, he made errors and learned from it. He was also shown human emotions such as love for a wife and child despite his villainous nature. If his planned failed he just figured "oh well" and took what he could from the failure. (which was always something)
His skill for improvisation also allowed him to adapt to moments quickly and scheme. Which is also a human trait even if it's a bit rare.

That would've truly fit better and held consistency with his character. The fact that he needs explanation for completely inhuman foresight is bad. However another explanation I've seen that would work is that he simply regained YXs repressed memories during DDD since it was no longer his future but now present. (it's not a foolproof explanation but in all honesty there's no way for that time travel set up to have one)

A triumvirate would've worked so much better too. T_T

Xanatos IS a great character, he alongside Demona is the best antagonist in the Gargoyles series (as I don't count Macbeth as a real villain). I also only compared Xanatos to Xehanort in the vein of them almost always coming out on top and both being great schemers and manipulators. The way how they achieve this is vastly different and Xanatos' variant is not only superior but also more sensible. This Aizen-character however sounds more like Xehanort taken up to eleven as Xehanort at least does have backup plans and acknowledges that he could fail.
The way I see it Xehanort stands right now between the two "ideals" that are Xanatos and Aizen, but tends more towards Aizen while his initial premise was at least partly more geared to be similar to Xanatos.
Skill for general improvisation is indeed only a bit uncommon, but to have the skill to adapt quickly in a moment's notice is certainly rare and often the sign of someone of above average intelligence.

I fear that holding consistency with Xehanort's character like this is also something that was sacrificed in order to make things "more surprising". Yet I think revealing that all the plans in BBS, KH 1 and KH 2 were just "experiments for the shits & giggles" instead of a series of pre-planned backup plans and thus hammering in the fact that so many people suffer just because Xehanort and his ax-crazy offshoots wanted to try things out would have also had a "surprising" wham-effect as well and have the audience in awe over Xehanort, but for different reasons and without notable changes to Ansem and Xemnas.
The reveal that now these three are pooling together resources from their experiences to a new plan would then come also as another wham-effect on top.

The triumvirate-scenario would even have further perks as we could then get scenes in KH III between MX, Ansem and Xemnas that are similar to the ones we got in CoM with Marluxia, Larxene and Axel. (and would probably get us a ton of Ansem/Xemnas shippers *cough*)
The second Org XIII-variant could also still happen this way without many problems.

Your not the only one. I liked it a lot in the beginning but it wasn't like a serious ordeal. A fun game to play and to talk about. Also like you I delved into lore and discussions of it, like many back then, because it was fun. However it's lost that fun. Like Audo I think it's about best to take the "author is dead" approach and interpret it your own way that can still make it enjoyable to you. (since I can say in honesty the more I delved/learned the more I hated it)

We're similar then. I don't dislike doomsday settings and while I like beautiful ones I mostly just wanna be impressed. And so far the only end world level j found impressive even if only by comparison to the rest is EoW.
That's just it though sir. All you can do IS deduce. We've only seen scraps so that realm could be far more. I don't expect it to be, don't get me wrong. I can't have expectations for these series anymore but there's enough unknown about the Dark Realm to hold some slight intrigue. It could be another full wasteland or some vast surprise.

Then the only difference between us in this regard is that you gave up on it while I didn't. I do not find the official stuff to be totally unbearable or irreconcilable. Sure, it's a total patchwork and there are dozens of scenarios proposed by fans alone that are smoother and carry the story to the places it wants to go without leaving any character or fact behind and I love reading those. Recently, that idea that Coded and DDD could take place at the same time, delivering an explanation to both the questions why a Data-Sora has to be used and why Mickey didn't warn Sora about the dangers of facing the hurt directly (and inform the kid that he holds Ven's heart among others) as well as providing a better opportunity for Maleficent to enter Disney Castle was something I sincerely enjoyed.
Still, I also find joy in trying to patch the official mess together regardless of bullshit done with it and look on it positively instead of ranting about it. The whole time travel-shenanigans in DDD were the very first instance where I was truly thrown off as patching this together is magnitudes more difficult than anything before it.

I know Nomura has more than one "tick" which severely hampers the quality of his story-telling, and therefore I can anticipate things more or less because I know the most simple and easy scenarios thought of by fans certainly won't be true.
I don't know if you follow the story-development of x[chi], but the newest developments definitely hint towards there being two Daybreak Towns (one in x[chi] and one in Unchained), just like we had two Traverse Towns in DDD, and Ephemera can apparently cross between the two just like Joshua can in DDD. So it seems that x[chi] builds heavily upon concepts first introduced in DDD.

I see, well, I do not even put the worlds in categories like "Final World" or something, I just go by general atmosphere which is also a reason why I like Land of Departure very much (and why I'm still sour about that you cannot enter the Castle at any time during BBS. I would love to explore the great hall with the mosaic windows, the corridors and all the personal bedrooms of TAV and Eraqus).
True dat, have to concur on that one.
I just hope a vast surprise won't be Aqua suddenly stumbling into a fast food restaurant hidden in the RoD (McDarknald's anyone?) or something similar...;P

Truly opposite because I cared not even for Soras "Roxas moments". What I preferred of that initial KH2 was his reasonings. He simply wanted to know and left the Org for it. Days takes him on some random emo/angsty teen ride when he shouldn't even be mentally old enough for teen drama.
In KH2 I could take him seriously, now I can not. To me he felt like someone that needed no elaboration. Beyond a few more scenes in Kh2. (perhaps Skra having dream moments like Rkxas did of Sora)


That kinda disappoints me more since it shows just how much thought was put into making what is basically four yet slightly different versions of the same character rather than putting more thought into distinguishing them as more original. After all having connected characters is fine but not to this great extent.


I'm not sure either. Lefties are a largely rare trait in games and I'm unsure why. The only one I know off hand is Link from the Legend of Zelda series. (although he's portrayed as a righty sometimes too)

I sense a pattern here. Roxas' original portrayed reasons were plain and simple, possibly even too simple for some people's tastes *cough*Nomura*cough*, and since you're also so fond of KH 1's simplicity it fits together.
That Roxas starts out as a sort of memoryless "Zombie" that needs to learn to emote from scratch and thus develop his own identity is actually something that was portrayed completely correct, yet Days totally butchers the phase that comes between initial clueless "Zombie"-Roxas and the eventual Roxas we see in KH 2. The transition from initial Roxas to KH 2-Roxas was something that Days should have shown developed and elaborated upon.
I'd assume that considering how many fans took a liking to Roxas after KH 2 and wanted to see more of him there was clearly a majority who wanted more elaboration on him. Days just didn't deliver what was actually expected and what would have made sense, in the end hurting Roxas' character overall.

Keep in mind though that I cannot really verify that this bit is actually really from Nomura himself as I cannot really find the original text where this was mentioned, it's also possible that this is part of an analysis-essay from the net or was stated in an interview with a different staff member that isn't Nomura.
On the other hand though there do exist personalities and characters that are very similar even in real life. So characters like Sora and Ventus having similar views and behaviours in certain areas like friendship or being cheerful and open towards others is not really something that is totally out of the ordinary.
Zidane Tribal from Final Fantasy IX is also very similar to both Sora and Ven in general strokes.

I know that Sephiroth is a lefty, but only in his original Final Fantasy-incarnation, the KH-version is also right-handed.
I'm not sure if Ventus being a lefty would really have made much of an impact overall, but it would certainly have brought a little more diversity not only to the "Sora-quartet", but to the whole cast of original characters.

I'm sure BBs greatly suffered from the unexpected Days, Coded and system shift. Much like how KH2 suffered from rushing. You can clearly tell there was a slightly or maybe even largely different story in mind for BbS from its initial concepts (unbirth) and early scenes and trailers ("evil Terra").

I'm mostly amused due to all the character debates I've seen here over the years. lol


I was a hater initially but the manga showed me she could've been handled in manners that even I could enjoy. In the game I was glad she died because I knew I was almost done with the damn game. In the manga I actually cared she died because she and nearly everyone was developed and likable.

Whatever was planned in the early stages though, there are some instances like Terra's overprotectiveness towards Ven that were in it from the start. I remember the scenes where Terra confronts Master Xehanort and furiously asks about what he really did to his friends' heart as well as him carrying Ven under his arm were in it from the very first trailers, only situated at different locations.
In the end, it seems as if the story overall was greatly condensed and trimmed and things that may have been intended to be several different scenes were tossed together into one, like Ven asking to be erased seemed to be a originally a scene that not only involved him and Aqua alone, it also was not placed directly before the final battle (happening at Destiny Islands, and the on the main island on top of it) as it was in the actual game.
To be frank, while I don't like how they portrayed Terra in BBS at all and it didn't do him any justice, I'm relatively glad they scrapped the "evil" Terra too because that would just have been a rehash of KH 1 Riku.

It's obvious that a character poll made here at KH Insider would yield probably a totally different top 10 than the official survey did, depending also on which and how many members would participate in it.
I myself could not participate at all because in my top 10 several places are shared by more than one character. <__<

It is a sad reality that almost all characters except Riku could have been handled better and had their potential never really addressed in the games.
It's another reason why I'm also looking forward to reading the Chain of Memories novel which I got today. Kanemaki absolutely sucks in writing engaging battle scenes, lol, but she can make characters likeable just like Amano.

---

Edit:
I like that view on the new chi-update quite a bit.
If Daybreak Town is truly in the RoS it is perfectly possible for a character of the present to reach it, especially when aided by Yen Sid's magic.

Namine! Remember, Namine returned to Kairi so it would make sense that she would now harbor some of Namine's darkness as well. The implication here is interesting, though, because I'm not sure if Kairi still qualifies then as a Princess of Heart if she isn't pure-hearted. Can you lose that title? It hasn't been addressed but I can see it being an issue.

I doubt that Kairi's status would be really endangered as it is not her own heart that has the Darkness but Naminé's heart. Having Naminé returned to her does not mean that both girl's hearts fused into one.
Riku also met Roxas, Ventus and Xion individually inside Sora's heart, showing that they're still distinct.

 

[gelandporn]

I wasn't really addressing the exact nature of how Namine returned to Kairi, but the effect of it. It doesn't matter if their hearts fused, if they're totally separate yet occupying the same vessel, or if there's some kind of Matryoshka-doll layout where one heart is within another.

Sora felt Roxas' pain and by extension gained darkness from enduring it. Namine holds the same/similar relationship to Kairi as Roxas does to Sora, so it is possible she also can feel the same feelings (including guilt) and perhaps grow darkness.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

I wasn't really addressing the exact nature of how Namine returned to Kairi, but the effect of it. It doesn't matter if their hearts fused, if they're totally separate yet occupying the same vessel, or if there's some kind of Matryoshka-doll layout where one heart is within another.

Sora felt Roxas' pain and by extension gained darkness from enduring it. Namine holds the same/similar relationship to Kairi as Roxas does to Sora, so it is possible she also can feel the same feelings (including guilt) and perhaps grow darkness.

As far as we know though Princesses of Heart/pure light hearts cannot grow darkness.
Kairi has already exhibited negative feelings and didn't grow any Darkness from enduring them, nor did running through an Corridor of Darkness without any protection have any effect on her.
Even Ventus, who has an artificial pure light heart, didn't grow any Darkness even when he was angry, sad or otherwise upset during the course of BBS.
He melted the ice he was encased in out of pure anger at Vanitas, and yet he didn't gain any Darkness from it either.

It's almost as if hearts of pure light have the resistance to Darkness that Riku gained somehow inherently.
So while Kairi is definitely able to do the same with Naminé as Sora did with Roxas, she may not grow Darkness herself.

 

[gelandporn]

I hate to be that guy, but what you're arguing is textbook fallacy of necessity.

A.) PoH do not have darkness in their hearts
B.) Kairi is a PoH

Therefore, Kairi cannot ever have darkness in her heart? You cannot jump to that conclusion. The conclusion is only that she does not have darkness in her heart, not that there is no means by which there ever could be.


Your comparison to Ven is invalid because it's factually distinguishable. Ven is drawing upon his own feelings and he only has light in his heart. For Kairi, an outside agent (Namine) brought darkness and feelings to her. Kairi and Namine make a complete person. So if anything, a closer comparison would be "Venitas" (though I still find it lacking), and we know, obviously, Ven's body was then capable of utilizing darkness.

 

[BlackOsprey]

... So in conclusion, when it comes to the plot of Kingdom Hearts, you might as well throw Occam's Razor out the window, because the simplest answer is never how it actually works out.

Your comparison to Ven is invalid because it's factually distinguishable. Ven is drawing upon his own feelings and he only has light in his heart. For Kairi, an outside agent (Namine) brought darkness and feelings to her. Kairi and Namine make a complete person. So if anything, a closer comparison would be "Venitas" (though I still find it lacking), and we know, obviously, Ven's body was then capable of utilizing darkness.

Yes, but unlike Vanitas, Namine isn't Kairi's darkness incarnate or anything like that. Nobodies have been explicitly stated to be creatures that aren't of light or darkness.

I get what you're trying to go with here, though. It's never been disproven that even a heart of pure light can't have darkness from a foreign or outside source mingling in it. The question here is where the heck did that darkness come from? I doubt that it's as simple as "growing" darkness in there from stressful/painful experiences and emotions, because that's how normal people usually incur darkness anyways. I doubt the PoH's would be distinguished by their purity if their hearts worked the same way as everyone else's.

Sora felt Roxas' pain and by extension gained darkness from enduring it. Namine holds the same/similar relationship to Kairi as Roxas does to Sora, so it is possible she also can feel the same feelings (including guilt) and perhaps grow darkness.

Hm... I can't remember Re:Coded and DDD quote-for-quote, but I don't think that the nasty shards of pain in Sora's heart actually grew darkness. I think it was more like the pain itself left the heart vulnerable and weakened, and therefore much more susceptible to collapsing. That, and they angered Sora into diving head-on further into a dangerous dream that had already been set up like a trap... that certainly didn't help things.

I could certainly see Namine's memories having a damaging effect on Kairi to some degree, considering that the majority of her existence consisted of being lonely, being forced to nearly ruin someone's life, feeling incredibly guilty about that, and being used like a tool by just about everyone around her. Would having that kind of heart-to-heart (ha see what I did there) upset Kairi? Of course. Would it weaken her heart in some way? Possibly. Would it cause darkness to sprout within it? Doubtfully. It certainly would explain where the "guilt" is coming from, though.

 

[Anagram]

Therefore, Kairi cannot ever have darkness in her heart? You cannot jump to that conclusion. The conclusion is only that she does not have darkness in her heart, not that there is no means by which there ever could be.

I'm afraid I agree with the PoH and darkness part. While we can't say for sure they can't grow it we do know for a fact that so far we know not one case of any doing so and we have multiple cases of their hearts being taken by beings of darkness or being exposed to the dark realm itself without ill effect.
It would just seem hollow or counterproductive to their role if they could gain darkness. Whats the point of 7 pure lights if they can be tainted?

Just gonna have to wait and see on that one I say. But I'm not gonna go with she can for what is basically "just cause".
I will agree though that Namine could effect the situation. Even if Kairi can't be tainted or gain darkness Namine isn't of that same PoH stature and has used CoD before. Meaning even if Kairi is taint free maybe Namines darkness can form the nightmares which would attack Kairi's heart. Being pure her heart is after all a prime target.

I mean let's be fair here. While your bringing up "why can't she?" to Sephiroth, your own argument is that she basically can "just cause" when it also has no really valid backup. It's arguing a thing neither of you can really win or lose here without further proof on the matter.

The approach to write the story and scenario around the game system and often last is actually something I don't really understand. Normally one would think that if you have an overaching story, it should take priority over gameplay-decisions and steps should be taken to ensure coherence.

This use of these terms has gotten so bad that the term "retcon" itself has by now almost solely a negative connotation in public view despite a retcon not being always bad.

You would think so but the sheer lack of coherency shows he either doesn't care or know how to be coherent properly. That or they keep slamming him with so many projects that he just can't overlook properly. (maybe all of them)

True. There are some stories were a proper retcon is welcome. lmao

That's it though, it was all murky and vague, another thing that could have been a thing, hence some feelings that there is buildup, but there was never anything truly substantial, as the very first "Xehanort" we were introduced to, the so-called "Apprentice" Xehanort, never got any true coverage beyond one single scene in KH 2 and one in Blank Points, and by now he's almost non-existant and it is even doubtable if he ever was a being on his own at all since all importance of the "middle-aged" Xehanort was split between Terra-Xehanort (with MX in control) and Ansem SoD.
It's funny since the amnesia thing is one of those things that still hangs in the air despite the very first scene of DDD with Braig and "Xehanort". The Goat-blade being revealed to have a will also doesn't help as this opens up possible more wormcans.
Well, on one hand there also wasn't much else to discuss about because Nomura managed to have nearly every other major character that's not Xehanort either incapacitated so throroughly that there isn't any premise to discuss what their role in the story could be (all the tormented ones), sidelined so much that there isn't any basis (like Kairi, Donald or Goofy) or who is often so much out of the loop that discussions going beyond "will he be named finally a Keyblade Master" or "will he become a Darkness after all" are almost pointless (Sora).

But that is the thing. The vagueness helped these characters. It wasn't something that needed a clarification or at least if it did it needed a better one because the clarification we were given made them not only as hollow as the apprentice but also made Xehanort completely unbelievable as a villain for his foresight and so on. (which is saying a damn lot for a magical and fantastical setting)

haha I still laugh over the Apprentice ordeal. Talk about wasted potential though I dont really mind in his case. We knew not enough about him for me to consider him a loss like Ansem or Xemnas. He is however, as your pointing out here, my main reason for considering that, as of DDD, no Xehanort had truly free thought or individuality. All just puppets to a spread out mind and heart.
Of course Xehanorts that started out as other people like Braig have that individuality.

So true. Depending on this 'will' it could make even Xehanort a puppet which would kinda suck devaluing him even further. That scene, I think, was meant to answer the amnesia question but seems to just be a part of the conundrum now. (though in my opinion it clearly shows there was only ever old Xehanort)(when you combine the scene with Xehanorts "it was all me" revelation anyway)
Sad but true. Another nail in the coffin of the fanbase after the arrival of the handheld three. They left nothing to talk about in a bad way down to even the character level.

Uh, I apologize if that came over wrong, I never meant to imply that I consider Ansem and Xemnas to have no own will anymore, as I still believe they do to an extent just like Xigbar/Braig does.
Egh, no, I didn't mean to imply that they lacked "individuality" from the get go, but that adding the "Terra-influence"-bit would be no help of showing off/making their "individuality" more palpable, because it would still not be "Ansem" or "Xemnas" doing anything, but instead of "Xehanort ordered/influenced this action" in 100% of cases (which I still believe wasn't always the case) it would occassionally be "Terra ordered/influenced this action".

When going by your viewpoint that Ansem and Xemnas are just puppets, bringing just the example with the "Terra-influence" would not change anything except that occassionally the remote switched owners.

Or Tl;dr: The Problem is not that they clarified there truly was no active Terra-influence existing, it's solely making their plans and actions from KH 1 and Days/KH 2 being not their own creations but laid out by Master Xehanort from the shadows what takes some of their credibility away.

The debate of what was Xehanort's influence and what was from their own minds could still be continued if the plans remained being their own creations, only the point of Terra-influence would fall out of the equation and that one was always ambigious to begin with.

No need to apologize but if I remember right you was arguing they had individuality while the other was arguing they basically didn't. At least in terms of beings born from Xehanort (apprentice, ansem, xemnas) so it's ironic to see you say how little they have now. lol
Sadly I agree with whoever it is you was debating with. To me it was all basically Xehanort at this point. If there was any individuality it was just fragments of Xehanorts to me at this point. (kinda like remote control xehanorts)
Might be another one of those topics for another thread at this point maybe...
I never considered much a Terra influence. I was just bringing up the topic of that time. Before DDD the influence I believed they had was largely fragmented mindsets and memory loss.

Xanatos IS a great character, he alongside Demona is the best antagonist in the Gargoyles series (as I don't count Macbeth as a real villain). I also only compared Xanatos to Xehanort in the vein of them almost always coming out on top and both being great schemers and manipulators. The way how they achieve this is vastly different and Xanatos' variant is not only superior but also more sensible. This Aizen-character however sounds more like Xehanort taken up to eleven as Xehanort at least does have backup plans and acknowledges that he could fail.
The way I see it Xehanort stands right now between the two "ideals" that are Xanatos and Aizen, but tends more towards Aizen while his initial premise was at least partly more geared to be similar to Xanatos.
Skill for general improvisation is indeed only a bit uncommon, but to have the skill to adapt quickly in a moment's notice is certainly rare and often the sign of someone of above average intelligence.

I fear that holding consistency with Xehanort's character like this is also something that was sacrificed in order to make things "more surprising". Yet I think revealing that all the plans in BBS, KH 1 and KH 2 were just "experiments for the shits & giggles" instead of a series of pre-planned backup plans and thus hammering in the fact that so many people suffer just because Xehanort and his ax-crazy offshoots wanted to try things out would have also had a "surprising" wham-effect as well and have the audience in awe over Xehanort, but for different reasons and without notable changes to Ansem and Xemnas.
The reveal that now these three are pooling together resources from their experiences to a new plan would then come also as another wham-effect on top.

The triumvirate-scenario would even have further perks as we could then get scenes in KH III between MX, Ansem and Xemnas that are similar to the ones we got in CoM with Marluxia, Larxene and Axel. (and would probably get us a ton of Ansem/Xemnas shippers *cough*)
The second Org XIII-variant could also still happen this way without many problems.

Aizen is like DDD Xehanort taken up to 20 rather than eleven. His plan never fails, he's powerful on a godlike level before he's even the final boss or gets what he wants and even when he was finally defeated they couldn't kill him due to his power. Aizen is what I fear Xehanorts end result will be as of DDD. =[

The consistency was definitely thrown out for this purpose but given just how many are disinterested or even annoyed by him at this point to me says the wham-effect had an actual inverse effect. If it were just a handful I'd say it's just me but no matter where I go I rarely find people pleased or caring with Xehanorts development. At most the only Xehanort that still seems somewhat liked is the young one. lol (because he's the bishie-nort)
(sssshhhh dont mention the shippers, they lurk~)

Then the only difference between us in this regard is that you gave up on it while I didn't. I do not find the official stuff to be totally unbearable or irreconcilable. Sure, it's a total patchwork and there are dozens of scenarios proposed by fans alone that are smoother and carry the story to the places it wants to go without leaving any character or fact behind and I love reading those. Recently, that idea that Coded and DDD could take place at the same time, delivering an explanation to both the questions why a Data-Sora has to be used and why Mickey didn't warn Sora about the dangers of facing the hurt directly (and inform the kid that he holds Ven's heart among others) as well as providing a better opportunity for Maleficent to enter Disney Castle was something I sincerely enjoyed.
Still, I also find joy in trying to patch the official mess together regardless of bullshit done with it and look on it positively instead of ranting about it. The whole time travel-shenanigans in DDD were the very first instance where I was truly thrown off as patching this together is magnitudes more difficult than anything before it.

I know Nomura has more than one "tick" which severely hampers the quality of his story-telling, and therefore I can anticipate things more or less because I know the most simple and easy scenarios thought of by fans certainly won't be true.
I don't know if you follow the story-development of x[chi], but the newest developments definitely hint towards there being two Daybreak Towns (one in x[chi] and one in Unchained), just like we had two Traverse Towns in DDD, and Ephemera can apparently cross between the two just like Joshua can in DDD. So it seems that x[chi] builds heavily upon concepts first introduced in DDD.

I had to give up. It just wasn't fun anymore....in fact the more I delved the more I hated it. By taking the casuals approach I can somewhat care again and at least enjoy playing KH1, Aqua and to some extents KH2FM.
That actually is a decent scenario idea. Is there anything contradicting the Coded-DDD running parallel idea?
Surprisingly the time travel in DDD was my only major story gripe and it wasn't major at that. Thanks to other series I have followed time travel is easy for me to wrap my mind around. String theory, Novikov, alteration, I got all that time jargon down fine. What I hated about DDD was honestly it's gameplay. I literally can't stand to sit and play it.

Sadly I do not follow up on Chi. I gave up the mythos game after the final handheld BBS came about. (didn't even bother with DDD) I do plan to try unchained though if it's still free. lol (only the stubborn wont try that which is free haha)

I see, well, I do not even put the worlds in categories like "Final World" or something, I just go by general atmosphere which is also a reason why I like Land of Departure very much (and why I'm still sour about that you cannot enter the Castle at any time during BBS. I would love to explore the great hall with the mosaic windows, the corridors and all the personal bedrooms of TAV and Eraqus).
True dat, have to concur on that one.
I just hope a vast surprise won't be Aqua suddenly stumbling into a fast food restaurant hidden in the RoD (McDarknald's anyone?) or something similar...;P

I'm kinda surprised the castle wasn't an option myself....I was never vastly impressed with the world though. One world I was impressed with was DDD's Fantasia and Grid levels or KH1's Hollow Bastion.
Ssssshhhh, it's Nomura, he's friends with Kojima who's known for random (although often funny) random shit in games. Dont give him ideas. o_o.....

I sense a pattern here. Roxas' original portrayed reasons were plain and simple, possibly even too simple for some people's tastes *cough*Nomura*cough*, and since you're also so fond of KH 1's simplicity it fits together.
That Roxas starts out as a sort of memoryless "Zombie" that needs to learn to emote from scratch and thus develop his own identity is actually something that was portrayed completely correct, yet Days totally butchers the phase that comes between initial clueless "Zombie"-Roxas and the eventual Roxas we see in KH 2. The transition from initial Roxas to KH 2-Roxas was something that Days should have shown developed and elaborated upon.
I'd assume that considering how many fans took a liking to Roxas after KH 2 and wanted to see more of him there was clearly a majority who wanted more elaboration on him. Days just didn't deliver what was actually expected and what would have made sense, in the end hurting Roxas' character overall.

Keep in mind though that I cannot really verify that this bit is actually really from Nomura himself as I cannot really find the original text where this was mentioned, it's also possible that this is part of an analysis-essay from the net or was stated in an interview with a different staff member that isn't Nomura.
On the other hand though there do exist personalities and characters that are very similar even in real life. So characters like Sora and Ventus having similar views and behaviours in certain areas like friendship or being cheerful and open towards others is not really something that is totally out of the ordinary.
Zidane Tribal from Final Fantasy IX is also very similar to both Sora and Ven in general strokes.

I wont lie I do love simplicity because more often than not it works best. However I have no issues with complexity either. (which you likely assume from my former nature of following the series)
Like you I love a complex puzzle but only if they are coherent, done well and present things in ways to discover the answer.
And as you know KH's complexity does none of these. It's not coherent, many of it's visual cues are easily and often misinterpreted, it's puzzle pieces are all over the damn place and it's rarely done well to the point fans have better ideas half the time. I want good puzzles, not jumbled or halfhearted ones.
Basically put I favor simplicity in KH in favor and/or comparison of what it's "complexity" offers.

Exactly my point. We didn't see that development. Just his emo/angst ride. Not that his emoness wasn't warranted but at the same time it's like Days went out of it's way to try and make me care or feel sad about him or his friends when it did the adverse by shoving it in my face constantly. (I believe it was you who once compared saying Days tried to hard and failed while BBS didn't try enough and failed)

By no means are they out of the ordinary. Remember I said having connected characters isn't bad but he just pushes it to hard. There are people, me included, that know others with personalities and mindsets so similar yet faintly different it's scary. KH just does it a bit poorly or in overly complex and unbelievable ways.

Whatever was planned in the early stages though, there are some instances like Terra's overprotectiveness towards Ven that were in it from the start. I remember the scenes where Terra confronts Master Xehanort and furiously asks about what he really did to his friends' heart as well as him carrying Ven under his arm were in it from the very first trailers, only situated at different locations.
In the end, it seems as if the story overall was greatly condensed and trimmed and things that may have been intended to be several different scenes were tossed together into one, like Ven asking to be erased seemed to be a originally a scene that not only involved him and Aqua alone, it also was not placed directly before the final battle (happening at Destiny Islands, and the on the main island on top of it) as it was in the actual game.
To be frank, while I don't like how they portrayed Terra in BBS at all and it didn't do him any justice, I'm relatively glad they scrapped the "evil" Terra too because that would just have been a rehash of KH 1 Riku.

It's obvious that a character poll made here at KH Insider would yield probably a totally different top 10 than the official survey did, depending also on which and how many members would participate in it.
I myself could not participate at all because in my top 10 several places are shared by more than one character. <__<

It is a sad reality that almost all characters except Riku could have been handled better and had their potential never really addressed in the games.
It's another reason why I'm also looking forward to reading the Chain of Memories novel which I got today. Kanemaki absolutely sucks in writing engaging battle scenes, lol, but she can make characters likeable just like Amano.

Some scenes were moved around. The Ven scene in particular. There was another Ven scene in which Xehanort is referring to his heart which was later placed at the Badlands instead when it was previously at Olympus.
We're opposites then because, while we both hate Terras actual portrayal, I would've welcomed a Riku-like route in comparison to what I was given. Could've made them parallels in the sense that Riku is the example of redemption while Terra was the example of damnation. (i.e. it could've been done decent, maybe not grand but better than what we do have)

lol I couldn't participate myself because I can only honestly rank three.
I've never read the novels but if they're like Amano then it should be good. =D

 

[LightUpTheSky452]

Yes, but unlike Vanitas, Namine isn't Kairi's darkness incarnate or anything like that. Nobodies have been explicitly stated to be creatures that aren't of light or darkness.

Just to play devil's advocate here (though I really don't give much stock behind these ideas), Naminé is still very much an anomaly. So much, in fact, that there's that whole "The Truth About Naminé" book seen in Days.

Furthermore, Naminé has been referred to as a "shadow" more than once. And in the Chain of Memories novel, she even goes as far as to call herself "Kairi's darkness". Really, I think she's just using that as a metaphor--as Kairi isn't supposed to be able to have darkness at all--but you never know. And she has done some pretty questionable--possibly seen as "dark"--things, I mean (not that any of them were her fault, of course).

Also, I have seen some pretty crazy fan theories that maybe Kairi lost her Princess of Heart status when Naminé was created, because perhaps she was created out from the light of Kairi's heart, and therefore took a majority of it. Though personally, I don't buy that at all.

...But even so, I thought this all worth mentioning, if for no other reason than to further the discussion. LOL.

 

[Antifa Lockhart]

Just to play devil's advocate here (though I really don't give much stock behind these ideas), Naminé is still very much an anomaly. So much, in fact, that there's that whole "The Truth About Naminé" book seen in Days.

You keep bringing this up, but I'm quick to add that this may just be a report in a volume of studies by Vexen. I can't imagine, even the most prolonged of explanations about Naminé, taking up an entire book. I always took it to mean that Axel read that Naminé was Kairi's nobody and therefore Xion didn't really have a connection to either of them. Before this Axel only recognized Xion as having Naminé's face, and this starts him on his path of learning about Xion's connection to Sora. Though I'm fuzzy on when this scene takes place.

 

[Wildbullet]

Just to play devil's advocate here (though I really don't give much stock behind these ideas), Naminé is still very much an anomaly. So much, in fact, that there's that whole "The Truth About Naminé" book seen in Days.

Furthermore, Naminé has been referred to as a "shadow" more than once. And in the Chain of Memories novel, she even goes as far as to call herself "Kairi's darkness". Really, I think she's just using that as a metaphor--as Kairi isn't supposed to be able to have darkness at all--but you never know. And she has done some pretty questionable--possibly seen as "dark"--things, I mean (not that any of them were her fault, of course).

Also, I have seen some pretty crazy fan theories that maybe Kairi lost her Princess of Heart status when Naminé was created, because perhaps she was created out from the light of Kairi's heart, and therefore took a majority of it. Though personally, I don't buy that at all.

...But even so, I thought this all worth mentioning, if for no other reason than to further the discussion. LOL.

It's more complicated than that. By far the most confounding topic among the mythos concerning the Nobodies is Naminé herself. The thing is, why would Vexen make an entire study about a slip of a girl despite having interesting samples and subjects around him, oh say, that blond boy who was already carrying a train-wreck of a heart and why he could wield a legendary weapon that could be aligned to the Light despite their Twilight-Darkness affinity. Let me contradict myself though with Devil's Proof. There is no evidence that Vexen did not have a study dedicated on other subjects like Roxas, but there is also no evidence that Vexen did have a study dedicated on Roxas as a subject.

So why would a scene in Days show a book that is entirely dedicated to Naminé rather than any other subject? What we know is that she has powers of Darkness, just as any Nobody do. She was sourced from the purest Light. She doesn't have a template for a body, Roxas already took that.

I am not a Xion hater, and that girl(?) even has some of my sympathy, but even if she shares the same voice actress and hairstyle, it can be said that Naminé has a closer resemblance to Kairi than Xion does. Roxas' closeness to her MIGHT have had a foundation with that the most precious memories are of Kairi, and Xion is the manifestation of those memories. The thing is, majority of the older player base have their sympathy on Naminé (like me), while majority of the newer fanbase like Xion. But those will just incite Shipping Wars and I don't want to derail the topic so treat this paragraph as an opinion piece and ignore it but for the above, it's for discussion.

 

[gelandporn]

Yes, but unlike Vanitas, Namine isn't Kairi's darkness incarnate or anything like that. Nobodies have been explicitly stated to be creatures that aren't of light or darkness.

I get what you're trying to go with here, though. It's never been disproven that even a heart of pure light can't have darkness from a foreign or outside source mingling in it. The question here is where the heck did that darkness come from? I doubt that it's as simple as "growing" darkness in there from stressful/painful experiences and emotions, because that's how normal people usually incur darkness anyways. I doubt the PoH's would be distinguished by their purity if their hearts worked the same way as everyone else's.



Hm... I can't remember Re:Coded and DDD quote-for-quote, but I don't think that the nasty shards of pain in Sora's heart actually grew darkness. I think it was more like the pain itself left the heart vulnerable and weakened, and therefore much more susceptible to collapsing. That, and they angered Sora into diving head-on further into a dangerous dream that had already been set up like a trap... that certainly didn't help things.

I could certainly see Namine's memories having a damaging effect on Kairi to some degree, considering that the majority of her existence consisted of being lonely, being forced to nearly ruin someone's life, feeling incredibly guilty about that, and being used like a tool by just about everyone around her. Would having that kind of heart-to-heart (ha see what I did there) upset Kairi? Of course. Would it weaken her heart in some way? Possibly. Would it cause darkness to sprout within it? Doubtfully. It certainly would explain where the "guilt" is coming from, though.

Namine doesn't have to be "darkness incarnate," she just has to have some darkness in order for it to be a factor. Which she obviously does. All Nobodies do, to an extent, even if they're "rejected" by darkness. The proof is in her ability to open Corridors of Darkness.

I'm not saying Kairi is growing her own darkness but that the presence of Namine's is what allows it.

I'm afraid I agree with the PoH and darkness part. While we can't say for sure they can't grow it we do know for a fact that so far we know not one case of any doing so and we have multiple cases of their hearts being taken by beings of darkness or being exposed to the dark realm itself without ill effect.
It would just seem hollow or counterproductive to their role if they could gain darkness. Whats the point of 7 pure lights if they can be tainted?

Just gonna have to wait and see on that one I say. But I'm not gonna go with she can for what is basically "just cause".
I will agree though that Namine could effect the situation. Even if Kairi can't be tainted or gain darkness Namine isn't of that same PoH stature and has used CoD before. Meaning even if Kairi is taint free maybe Namines darkness can form the nightmares which would attack Kairi's heart. Being pure her heart is after all a prime target.

I mean let's be fair here. While your bringing up "why can't she?" to Sephiroth, your own argument is that she basically can "just cause" when it also has no really valid backup. It's arguing a thing neither of you can really win or lose here without further proof on the matter.

Counterproductive to their role? Yes, they're wanted as seven pure-hearted beings, even by the villains so that they can take advantage of that power. I didn't say anything about being counterproductive.

Guys, am I not coming across clearly here? I'm not positing, "Maybe if Kairi gets mad enough she'll just develop darkness out of nowhere!"

That "contaminating" a Princess of Heart has not happened to our knowledge absolutely goes to show the exceptional nature of their pureness, so then it's a matter of asking if something exceptional in nature could overcome that pureness. Namine is by all accounts exceptional. No other Princess of Heart has made a Nobody because of how darkness factors in, and yet she came to be. I shouldn't have to spell this out, I'm starting to sound like the Ansem Reports.

Sora can feel Roxas' emotions. This is confirmed.
That's reason to believe that Kairi can feel Namine's emotions.

Roxas' heart and by extension the darkness it harbored now rest within Sora.
Is it that much of a stretch to say the same of Kairi and Namine? And Kairi's vicarious feelings from Namine feeding that darkness?

I'll say it's far from the stretch it took to allow Namine to exist in the first place lol.

I mean, seriously. I recall discussions back in 2006 about this implication for Namine returning to Kairi, but from what I've seen here it's like NOPE THAT DEBATE IS OVER.
Since then we've even seen a pure hearted individual created and then re-corrupted lol.

 

[Anagram]

Your being perfectly clear but it's apparent our arguments to you aren't. No ones saying something asinine like she's gonna sprout dark blots on the heart from anger or anything similar to it.

Your also not taking into account Namines unique existence into your own argument. Just because Sora felt something of Roxas does not mean it goes both ways. Your making jumps in assumption there.
If your gonna use Namines unique nature to argue against the norm then the norm of Roxas-Sora must also be looked at with grains of salt. Especially when we've never seen or had written words to say or even hint that Kairi has felt Namines feelings or memories. (unlike Sora in which we see him feel moments or when Roxas shows him his memories in DDD)

So once again I say you are basically making a cause of "just cause" here while trying to prove it on things that dont back it. They leave possibility but no incentive just like the counterarguments your fighting.
In the end pure hearts, natural ones like Kairi here, have no known instances of being corrupted. Does this mean it's impossible? Nope, not at all. But it also leaves nothing to say it is possible either. =/ There's really no way to dance around that.

You even ignored people like me admitting the namine part is possible but only hypothetically. "lol" =P

Eidt: Hell for all we know it's Namines darkness just running lose within the dreams but not actually corrupting Kairis own heart. Things being in a dream in the first place leaves any concretes iffy due to the nature of dreams in general. (such as how heartless behave upon destruction in Chi or how the RoS has dream eaters which devour dreams/nightmares rather than hearts like the heartless do in other realms)