Help/Support ► The LGBT Help and Support Thread (v3)

[TheFreeshooterII]

Do you have a screwdriver handy? If so, use it to pull out the shift key please.

And as for what you were saying, Shuri, I think people put too much emphasis on labels these days. Many times it's not as clean cut as straight, gay, and bi. There are different levels of attraction, and different types of attraction. I know one friend of mine who is gay but does like to kiss girls, even though he'd never go any farther with it. Another friend is straight but he likes kissing guys, but he doesn't consider himself gay or bi.

Sexuality is a lot more complex than people try to make it out to be.

Why Does My Typing Bother You? Cause I Dont Give a Shite

 

[Archetype00x]

Why Does My Typing Bother You? Cause I Dont Give a Shite

Then leave. No one wants to hear about how wonderful your relationship with your lover is. When you have some issues pertaining to your status as a homosexual, let us know.

 

[Shuri]

Do you have a screwdriver handy? If so, use it to pull out the shift key please.

And as for what you were saying, Shuri, I think people put too much emphasis on labels these days. Many times it's not as clean cut as straight, gay, and bi. There are different levels of attraction, and different types of attraction. I know one friend of mine who is gay but does like to kiss girls, even though he'd never go any farther with it. Another friend is straight but he likes kissing guys, but he doesn't consider himself gay or bi.

Sexuality is a lot more complex than people try to make it out to be.

Actually, I think sexuality is pretty simple:
If you have sexual attractions to members of the same sex, you are homosexual.
If you have sexual attractions to members of both sexes, you are bisexual.
If you have sexual attractions to members of the opposite sex, you are heterosexual.

It's just not that hard to figure. Both your friends are probably bisexual, unless the thrill they get from kissing isn't sexual, in which case they're just messing around. But I think, generally, people try to over-complicate sexuality in order to compensate for the fact that they don't want to admit to themselves who they really are. It all ties into some weird new-age bullshit concept that everyone is special and unique, and that sexuality is not one thing or another but some wide spectrum of feelings and emotions and states of being. Sexuality has nothing to do with those things.

As I was saying before in reference to Angels in America, it's much easier to be a man who sleeps with men than to be a homosexual man in this country, if you know what I mean. This ties into a much bigger issue that I think hasn't really been addressed properly, which is that, at least from my experience, most people actually don't care as much if you're gay as they do if you're gay and comfortable with it. As long as you're a little bit ashamed, you can still be degraded and overpowered, and that's better. Obviously it's still wrong that you're gay, but as long as you aren't outspoken and you keep to yourself, you aren't contributing anything to the gay community as a whole and, thus, you are actually crippling equal rights more effectively than any anti-gay organization could. I think that's why I get a bit upset when people try to dodge around sexuality. Sure, we can all believe that sexual attraction is this indefinably wide scope of things, but what purpose does that really serve? Does that help any real world issues? No. It just gives some gay kid who's too indoctrinated to accept his sexuality the ability to pat himself on the back, because his sexuality is whatever he decides it is and just because he likes sticking his dick in guys doesn't necessarily mean he's gay. Like I said, it's a cop out; a fantasy. That kid is gay, and he shouldn't be ashamed to admit it to himself. I think the whole "Sexuality is everything" theory is degrading to gay people who have worked hard to have no shame in who they are, because suddenly, they don't have to be gay at all! They can be "sort of" gay, or "a little" bi. Just like you can be "sort of" black, or "a little" Chinese! Hell, you can be straight and just have a tendency to put penises in your mouth. It's just one more excuse not to be gay, which implicitly reinforces the notion that there is something wrong or shameful about being gay in the first place.

Also,

Then leave. No one wants to hear about how wonderful your relationship with your lover is. When you have some issues pertaining to your status as a homosexual, let us know.

Not to downplay what you're saying, but I actually do like hearing about relationships. I know they aren't necessarily appropriate for discussion here, but it's a bit harsh to imply that nobody cares about what he has to say, not to mention extremely presumptuous. I think what I'm trying to say is, speak for yourself.

Also, if getting together with this guy was a huge step for Freeshooter in accepting himself for who he is, I would say it's perfectly understandable that he would want to share it with the "LGBT Support" thread. I know it sounds crazy, but sometimes people just like to share their accomplishments with others.

So congratulations to you, Freeshooter. :3

Shuri/Eli

 

[Rich]

Actually, I think sexuality is pretty simple:
If you have sexual attractions to members of the same sex, you are homosexual.
If you have sexual attractions to members of both sexes, you are bisexual.
If you have sexual attractions to members of the opposite sex, you are heterosexual.

It's just not that hard to figure. Both your friends are probably bisexual, unless the thrill they get from kissing isn't sexual, in which case they're just messing around. But I think, generally, people try to over-complicate sexuality in order to compensate for the fact that they don't want to admit to themselves who they really are. It all ties into some weird new-age bullshit concept that everyone is special and unique, and that sexuality is not one thing or another but some wide spectrum of feelings and emotions and states of being. Sexuality has nothing to do with those things.

As I was saying before in reference to Angels in America, it's much easier to be a man who sleeps with men than to be a homosexual man in this country, if you know what I mean. This ties into a much bigger issue that I think hasn't really been addressed properly, which is that, at least from my experience, most people actually don't care as much if you're gay as they do if you're gay and comfortable with it. As long as you're a little bit ashamed, you can still be degraded and overpowered, and that's better. Obviously it's still wrong that you're gay, but as long as you aren't outspoken and you keep to yourself, you aren't contributing anything to the gay community as a whole and, thus, you are actually crippling equal rights more effectively than any anti-gay organization could. I think that's why I get a bit upset when people try to dodge around sexuality. Sure, we can all believe that sexual attraction is this indefinably wide scope of things, but what purpose does that really serve? Does that help any real world issues? No. It just gives some gay kid who's too indoctrinated to accept his sexuality the ability to pat himself on the back, because his sexuality is whatever he decides it is and just because he likes sticking his dick in guys doesn't necessarily mean he's gay. Like I said, it's a cop out; a fantasy. That kid is gay, and he shouldn't be ashamed to admit it to himself. I think the whole "Sexuality is everything" theory is degrading to gay people who have worked hard to have no shame in who they are, because suddenly, they don't have to be gay at all! They can be "sort of" gay, or "a little" bi. Just like you can be "sort of" black, or "a little" Chinese! Hell, you can be straight and just have a tendency to put penises in your mouth. It's just one more excuse not to be gay, which implicitly reinforces the notion that there is something wrong or shameful about being gay in the first place.

Going on what you're saying, then, bisexuality covers a pretty large spectrum of people. It also means some people can be "more bi" than others. This is why terms can be so confusing, and some people just don't like to use them.

But just because someone doesn't identify as being gay or bi, doesn't mean they don't want to get out and support the LGBT community. Just because they don't label their sexuality doesn't mean they aren't proud of it. Nobody should have any shame in being who they are, be it if they are straight, gay, bi, or none of the above.

So yeah, I don't see it as a reinforcement that being gay is wrong. I see it as an example that the human sexuality is this amazing thing that can take many forms. NOBODY and I repeat NOBODY should be ashamed of who they are.

As for your analogy of being "sort of" black and "a little" Chinese, what about mixed kids? :3

 

[Shuri]

Going on what you're saying, then, bisexuality covers a pretty large spectrum of people. It also means some people can be "more bi" than others. This is why terms can be so confusing, and some people just don't like to use them.

But just because someone doesn't identify as being gay or bi, doesn't mean they don't want to get out and support the LGBT community. Just because they don't label their sexuality doesn't mean they aren't proud of it. Nobody should have any shame in being who they are, be it if they are straight, gay, bi, or none of the above.

So yeah, I don't see it as a reinforcement that being gay is wrong. I see it as an example that the human sexuality is this amazing thing that can take many forms. NOBODY and I repeat NOBODY should be ashamed of who they are.

As for your analogy of being "sort of" black and "a little" Chinese, what about mixed kids? :3

How can you be more bi? That doesn't make any sense. You either are or you aren't. There's no system of bisexuality in which some people are more attracted to both sexes than others. No; you either are attracted to both sexes or you aren't. You can't be more or less attracted to something than someone else. Of course if you're comparing people to one another it's going to seem like there's a difference: humans are far too fickle and inconsistent to act as constants in any evaluation of our tendencies. But it still stands that it doesn't make any sense to say you're more attracted to both sexes than this other guy. You may be more balanced in which you would choose while the other guy leans towards guys or leans towards girls, but all the same you are both bisexual. There's no percentile of bisexuality.

Here's the thing; as I've reasoned it out, and I'm obviously not infallible so I could be wrong, but to me, it seems that people who don't want to admit their sexuality to themselves are ashamed. They feel that there is something wrong with who they are and thus they deny it. That's the only motivation I understand for not accepting yourself. That being said, being closeted from others is an entirely different animal, because people can be wary about revealing their sexuality to the people around them for any number of legitimate reasons. Shame does not have to be, and generally is not, the predominant factor in that situation. Usually it's fear or caution surrounding the external: who you're with as opposed to who you are. But someone can completely accept themselves as a gay person and still remain closeted from the people closest to them if they aren't sure how those people will react. That isn't shame, it's common sense. Fear is enforced by those around you; shame is enforced by yourself. Of course, nobody should have to live in fear of who they are, either, but the first step towards changing that is accepting yourself; and I feel that if people are too hung up on the vastness of the sexual experience to recognize their own sexuality for what it is, society will never progress because who in their right mind wants to be gay in America? It's so much easier to just say you're something else or, sure, to not label yourself at all- but it downplays what's really going on here in the real world outside of all these empty theories and philosophical masturbation exercises: discrimination, oppression, stereotyping, and when someone decides to take the easy road and be the straight guy who has casual sex with men he's inadvertently helping foster that society and that outlook on the gay community. He's just as much a problem as the mom beating the bible over the heads of her kids because his indecisive meandering has helped enable that situation to take place.

Let me ask you this: why would anyone NOT want to label themselves homosexual, assuming they are attracted to members of the same sex? Because, you know, the funny thing is, I don't see tons of heterosexual people making claims about the "wide spectrum" upon which sexuality sits. Why? Because heterosexual people have not been historically oppressed and disenfranchised. Because heterosexual people have no motivation to look for excuses to not be straight: they're allowed to be heterosexual, so they can just accept that that's what they are without constantly looking for some alternative title under which to categorize their sexual preferences. But in the gay community it's different. In the gay community, for some reason I can't quite fathom, everyone has to have their own little set of sexualities all lined up in a row. You dress in women's clothes but you're straight but well sometimes you like guys and on occasion maybe you'll have a little romp with a stallion if the mood's right. It's ridiculous. Everyone just needs to get over their stupid misconceptions about the diversity of the human race and realize that we're all pretty much born the same with a few minor details skewed in every three or so individuals. It's our experiences that set us apart, not our birthright.

Lastly, if you'll notice, nobody identifies as "a little" black or "sort of" Chinese. Ever filled out one of those forms that asks for your ethnicity? There's no bubble for "Somewhat Asian in a way." That's because you can have a little or some or a lot of Asian blood, but you either recognize yourself as Asian or you don't. And all Asians are Asians, regardless of how much Asian heritage they have. No one's considered "more Asian" than someone else. Get it?

Shuri/Eli

 

[Raz]

Paragraphs abound.

 

[Shuri]

Paragraphs abound.

You know you like it. <3

 

[Rich]

How can you be more bi? That doesn't make any sense. You either are or you aren't. There's no system of bisexuality in which some people are more attracted to both sexes than others. No; you either are attracted to both sexes or you aren't. You can't be more or less attracted to something than someone else. Of course if you're comparing people to one another it's going to seem like there's a difference: humans are far too fickle and inconsistent to act as constants in any evaluation of our tendencies. But it still stands that it doesn't make any sense to say you're more attracted to both sexes than this other guy. You may be more balanced in which you would choose while the other guy leans towards guys or leans towards girls, but all the same you are both bisexual. There's no percentile of bisexuality.

Here's the thing; as I've reasoned it out, and I'm obviously not infallible so I could be wrong, but to me, it seems that people who don't want to admit their sexuality to themselves are ashamed. They feel that there is something wrong with who they are and thus they deny it. That's the only motivation I understand for not accepting yourself. That being said, being closeted from others is an entirely different animal, because people can be wary about revealing their sexuality to the people around them for any number of legitimate reasons. Shame does not have to be, and generally is not, the predominant factor in that situation. Usually it's fear or caution surrounding the external: who you're with as opposed to who you are. But someone can completely accept themselves as a gay person and still remain closeted from the people closest to them if they aren't sure how those people will react. That isn't shame, it's common sense. Fear is enforced by those around you; shame is enforced by yourself. Of course, nobody should have to live in fear of who they are, either, but the first step towards changing that is accepting yourself; and I feel that if people are too hung up on the vastness of the sexual experience to recognize their own sexuality for what it is, society will never progress because who in their right mind wants to be gay in America? It's so much easier to just say you're something else or, sure, to not label yourself at all- but it downplays what's really going on here in the real world outside of all these empty theories and philosophical masturbation exercises: discrimination, oppression, stereotyping, and when someone decides to take the easy road and be the straight guy who has casual sex with men he's inadvertently helping foster that society and that outlook on the gay community. He's just as much a problem as the mom beating the bible over the heads of her kids because his indecisive meandering has helped enable that situation to take place.

Let me ask you this: why would anyone NOT want to label themselves homosexual, assuming they are attracted to members of the same sex? Because, you know, the funny thing is, I don't see tons of heterosexual people making claims about the "wide spectrum" upon which sexuality sits. Why? Because heterosexual people have not been historically oppressed and disenfranchised. Because heterosexual people have no motivation to look for excuses to not be straight: they're allowed to be heterosexual, so they can just accept that that's what they are without constantly looking for some alternative title under which to categorize their sexual preferences. But in the gay community it's different. In the gay community, for some reason I can't quite fathom, everyone has to have their own little set of sexualities all lined up in a row. You dress in women's clothes but you're straight but well sometimes you like guys and on occasion maybe you'll have a little romp with a stallion if the mood's right. It's ridiculous. Everyone just needs to get over their stupid misconceptions about the diversity of the human race and realize that we're all pretty much born the same with a few minor details skewed in every three or so individuals. It's our experiences that set us apart, not our birthright.

Lastly, if you'll notice, nobody identifies as "a little" black or "sort of" Chinese. Ever filled out one of those forms that asks for your ethnicity? There's no bubble for "Somewhat Asian in a way." That's because you can have a little or some or a lot of Asian blood, but you either recognize yourself as Asian or you don't. And all Asians are Asians, regardless of how much Asian heritage they have. No one's considered "more Asian" than someone else. Get it?

Shuri/Eli

Haha, I sense you're very passionate about this subject. I can see where you're coming from, and I do understand your point.

When I said that there are different levels of bisexuality, I meant within itself. Some people are more attracted to one gender than the other, some people would only do certain things with one gender, but go all the way for the other. There are many different types of attraction and levels of attraction within bisexuality. Yes, they all are, in some way, sexually attracted to both genders. However, to what degree are they attracted to each gender? That's where the different "types" of bisexuality comes into play.

I understand that you see the people who don't label themselves straight, gay, or bi as just coping out of their own shame, but what I tried to say in my earlier post is that isn't always the case. Some people just genuinely don't know what to call themselves. Their confused over their own sexuality, and don't understand why they like what they like. One guy I know has a lot of issues over this. He loves the male figure, he's very attracted to men, and they turn him on like mad. However, he doesn't want to actually have sex with one. The idea of being intimate with a guy doesn't suit him. But he still thinks they are hot. However, he has what you could call a "normal" attraction to girls. What would you call him, yourself? Gay? Bi? Don't make the mistake that all the people who don't label themselves are filled with shame and trying to get out of being an outcast.

To answer your question of why they wouldn't want to just call themselves bi, I have no idea. I'm not them. I'm not going through the same thing they are. I knew as soon as I hit puberty I was attracted to guys, there was no doubt in my mind. I thought it was evil at the time, mind you, and spent 5 years praying for God to take it away and not let me go to hell, but I still knew I like guys and wanted to be with one. I know one guy who's physically attracted to guys, but emotionally attracted to girls. He doesn't know what to call himself.

As for the mixed kids comment, it was only a joke, haha. I swear, I'm not out to get you or anything. xD Keep in mind we are on the same side here. I want acceptance and tolerance just as much as you do.

 

[Crossroads]

Holy crap Shuri.

 

[Shuri]

Haha, I sense you're very passionate about this subject. I can see where you're coming from, and I do understand your point.

When I said that there are different levels of bisexuality, I meant within itself. Some people are more attracted to one gender than the other, some people would only do certain things with one gender, but go all the way for the other. There are many different types of attraction and levels of attraction within bisexuality. Yes, they all are, in some way, sexually attracted to both genders. However, to what degree are they attracted to each gender? That's where the different "types" of bisexuality comes into play.

I understand that you see the people who don't label themselves straight, gay, or bi as just coping out of their own shame, but what I tried to say in my earlier post is that isn't always the case. Some people just genuinely don't know what to call themselves. Their confused over their own sexuality, and don't understand why they like what they like. One guy I know has a lot of issues over this. He loves the male figure, he's very attracted to men, and they turn him on like mad. However, he doesn't want to actually have sex with one. The idea of being intimate with a guy doesn't suit him. But he still thinks they are hot. However, he has what you could call a "normal" attraction to girls. What would you call him, yourself? Gay? Bi? Don't make the mistake that all the people who don't label themselves are filled with shame and trying to get out of being an outcast.

To answer your question of why they wouldn't want to just call themselves bi, I have no idea. I'm not them. I'm not going through the same thing they are. I knew as soon as I hit puberty I was attracted to guys, there was no doubt in my mind. I thought it was evil at the time, mind you, and spent 5 years praying for God to take it away and not let me go to hell, but I still knew I like guys and wanted to be with one. I know one guy who's physically attracted to guys, but emotionally attracted to girls. He doesn't know what to call himself.

As for the mixed kids comment, it was only a joke, haha. I swear, I'm not out to get you or anything. xD Keep in mind we are on the same side here. I want acceptance and tolerance just as much as you do.

NOYOU'REWRONGI'MRIGHT./whine

I'm passionate about everything I do. People constantly say that my rants intimidate them since I don't half-ass anything. Don't worry, it's not just you- I freak out about everything. xD

But, I think we actually pretty much agree. I definitely understand that people have different specific attractions. I'm bisexual and I lean a bit more toward guys, and I look for different things in males than I do in females. Likewise, I have a friend who leans more towards girls, but also has sexual feelings for certain guys. Even so, we're both bisexual- neither of us is more or less bi than the other. I think you and I were just describing that concept differently. So it comes down to semantics, once again...

And I was talking about people who know their sexuality but won't admit it to themselves. Obviously, someone who doesn't know their sexuality can't admit it to themselves. People do get confused, and I definitely don't mean to bash them. And there are, of course, some people who experiment just to see what they like. But, like, in the case of your friend who has a physical attraction to guys but would only have sex with girls, I would say that if his physical attraction to men is sexual, he is bisexual (for instance, would he get aroused at the sight of a man jacking off, stuff like that?). If not, he isn't. He doesn't have to want to be physically intimate with a guy to be gay. After all, sexuality only deals with attraction: it doesn't deal with what you do based on that attraction. I'm sure there are tons of guys who become aroused at the sight of other men but get totally skeeved at the idea of having intercourse with them. Just like some people are averse to anal sex and some people will only give or receive oral, that's just a specific set of preferences that has more to do with fetish than with sexuality. I think the two get confused a lot.

But it's a good analogy anyway, so I kept with it to prove my point. xD
And you're wrong. I want acceptance and tolerance way more than you do. And I can prove it using my usual infallible logic. (I've been watching too much George Carlin lately. Does that explain a lot?)

Holy crap Shuri.

Ahhhh, music to my ears~. <3

Shuri/Eli

 

[Rich]

NOYOU'REWRONGI'MRIGHT./whine

I'm passionate about everything I do. People constantly say that my rants intimidate them since I don't half-ass anything. Don't worry, it's not just you- I freak out about everything. xD

But, I think we actually pretty much agree. I definitely understand that people have different specific attractions. I'm bisexual and I lean a bit more toward guys, and I look for different things in males than I do in females. Likewise, I have a friend who leans more towards girls, but also has sexual feelings for certain guys. Even so, we're both bisexual- neither of us is more or less bi than the other. I think you and I were just describing that concept differently. So it comes down to semantics, once again...

And I was talking about people who know their sexuality but won't admit it to themselves. Obviously, someone who doesn't know their sexuality can't admit it to themselves. People do get confused, and I definitely don't mean to bash them. And there are, of course, some people who experiment just to see what they like. But, like, in the case of your friend who has a physical attraction to guys but would only have sex with girls, I would say that if his physical attraction to men is sexual, he is bisexual (for instance, would he get aroused at the sight of a man jacking off, stuff like that?). If not, he isn't. He doesn't have to want to be physically intimate with a guy to be gay. After all, sexuality only deals with attraction: it doesn't deal with what you do based on that attraction. I'm sure there are tons of guys who become aroused at the sight of other men but get totally skeeved at the idea of having intercourse with them. Just like some people are averse to anal sex and some people will only give or receive oral, that's just a specific set of preferences that has more to do with fetish than with sexuality. I think the two get confused a lot.

But it's a good analogy anyway, so I kept with it to prove my point. xD
And you're wrong. I want acceptance and tolerance way more than you do. And I can prove it using my usual infallible logic. (I've been watching too much George Carlin lately. Does that explain a lot?)


Ahhhh, music to my ears~. <3

Shuri/Eli

Haha, and I do agree with you that people who know their sexuality, but avoid it, should be open about it. They are detrimental to acceptance and tolerance.

I think we may have arrived at a resolution. :3

Oh and I insist, please do prove that you want acceptance and tolerance more than me. =O I'm interested in seeing your logic.

 

[Shuri]

Because if you wanted acceptance and tolerance as much as I did than you would have just accepted and tolerated my point of view instead of persisting in your argumentative stances! I was blinded by the heat of passion, but you clearly retained your sense and conscience in the midst of my misdirected raaaaage. You should have been the bigger man, Rich.

God, I just totally pulled that out of my ass.
xD

Shuri/Eli

 

[Rich]

Because if you wanted acceptance and tolerance as much as I did than you would have just accepted and tolerated my point of view instead of persisting in your argumentative stances! I was blinded by the heat of passion, but you clearly retained your sense and conscience in the midst of my misdirected raaaaage. You should have been the bigger man, Rich.

God, I just totally pulled that out of my ass.
xD

Shuri/Eli

I would hardly call a healthy debate pestering. And as for my sense and conscience, wouldn't that make *me* the more tolerant one? :3

Your logic is far from infallible, lol. And I can tell you pulled that out of your ass. xD

 

[Shuri]

1) I said "persisting."

2) Fine.

And you're wrong. I want acceptance and tolerance way more than you do. And I can prove it using my usual improvisational logic.

Fixed. xD

Shuri/Eli

 

[Rich]

1) I said "persisting."

Gah, that's what I get for not paying close enough attention. At least I'm not an English major.

 

[Shuri]

Actually, the somewhat odd thing is, I was actually going to write something akin to, "...pestering argument..." at some point in there. You read what I didn't write. ^.0

 

[Crossroads]

I notice there are no lesbians.
At all.
WTF.

 

[Shuri]

I notice there are no lesbians.
At all.
WTF.

Girls don't play video games.

 

[Sora'sOtherSide]

They also don't exist on the internet.

 

[TheFreeshooterII]

Then leave. No one wants to hear about how wonderful your relationship with your lover is. When you have some issues pertaining to your status as a homosexual, let us know.

Actually It was Very Much a Problem But Whatever Obviously You Didnt Read my Other Post