Thoughts: Xion data, Armored Ventus and Aqua bosses for 2.5 HD?

[Solo]

Show me an example where a fight has been proved non-canonical, I know unknown was canon.

I believe as of now, there's no way of saying for certain if an optional fight is canon or non-canon (except for the secret fight against Xemnas in KHFM). It's hard to fit the fights into any of those two categories.

It will only be canon if it's touched upon in future games (for example, if in KH3 YX is confirmed to really have time-travelled and appeared at LoD after its destruction) or if Nomura himself states so. However, it will only be non-canon if it falls completely and obviously outside of what's considered canon, such as if the fight against VLS happened before the final showdown at Keyblade Graveyard (but this isn't the case).

I'm sorry if my understanding is erroneous.

 

[Gram]

Show me an example where a fight has been proved non-canonical, I know unknown was canon.

Your missing what I'm saying I'll post it again:

Because their optional and secret. Until you see the fight in a flashback scene or mentioned during the actual progression of a game it can go either way.

There is no way to prove a secret boss fight canon or noncanon until it actually APPEARS in game during the main story as the Unknown scenes did is what I mean.

That's why their seen as "non-canon" until proven to be later.
Besides I can just as easily ask you to show me proof of the Mysterious figure, vanitas senitments or lingering Will fights being canon. Of which there's no answer.
You can make up a time slot for them to have possibly appeared but until commented on characters later or nomura that hardly makes them canon.

 

[Draxem]

Has anything fallen out of what's considered canon though? Like I've never understood where people get these ideas that these fights aren't canon, has Nomura ever said "Oh yea this didn't actually happen..." about anything?

My point is do you guys decide that these things become irrelevant or has there ever actually been any proof that a single optional boss fight wasn't canon? The point is that these things appear in game and I have never seen Nomura say anything he's put in there isn't there for a reason.

 

[Gram]

Has anything fallen out of what's considered canon though? Like I've never understood where people get these ideas that these fights aren't canon, has Nomura ever said "Oh yea this didn't actually happen..." about anything?

My point is do you guys decide that these things become irrelevant or has there ever actually been any proof that a single optional boss fight wasn't canon?

No nomura has never said that but the fights, outside Xemnas, have never been CONFIRMED either. Secret bosses are more for fun or to introduce something for the next title.
This is where they get that, it's up in the air until confirmed later. And since their are neither confirmed nor denied their ruled out until proven later.

Likewise, I dont see why you need every boss fight to be canon. It'd be hard to even explain some of the fights if they were real, such as the data battles or Julius.

 

[Draxem]

Why rule them out if they are in the game though? Sorry but Sora has never mentioned his fight with the Unknown again but Xemnas confirms it, just because he fights LS in KH2FM and no-one mentions it again doesn't mean it didn't happen. My problem here is why does it need confirming? If literally none of it has been shown to be non canonical where do you get this idea it doesn't happen? I'm not missing anyones point here I just don't understand why it needs confirming if its already in the game and there's nothing to suggest anything (other than mirage arena for obvious reasons) in the game is non-canonical.

 

[Gram]

If you dont understand then you obviously are missing everyone's point. I'm just trying to tell you it could go either way I dont particularly sit on either side of the argument.
And it needs confirming for some because just as your fine with what if's there are many that isn't.

Sorry but Sora has never mentioned his fight with the Unknown again but Xemnas confirms it, just because he fights LS in KH2FM and no-one mentions it again doesn't mean it didn't happen.

And likewise it doesn't CONFIRM them either. And also it wasn't xemnas who first confirmed the fight, it was kh2s prologue.

 

[Solo]

We're not trying to dismiss the secret fights as non-canon, neither are we trying to accept them as canon. You see, it's always good to exercise extra caution when dealing with contents of dubious canonicity. It's dangerous to assume that something is right or wrong when in fact it's still drifting between the two ends of the spectrum, because if you've rooted your belief in your assumption and it's proven otherwise later on, there will be lots of backtracking, rectifying, and explaining to do.

It's like this: does extraterrestrial life really exist? So far, there's no concrete evidence for it, but there's no concrete evidence against it either. We can't say for certain, it's all up for guesses.

 

[Draxem]

My question here is why do they need to be debated as canon or not in the first place when they are in game and nothing has been said to be non canon? I would understand if Nomura had said anything at all in the games wasn't canon but he hasn't.

 

[Gram]

Because most of those boss fights take place after the story has ended, like the LW isn't available till after you beat kh2 or how the vanitas remnant isn't available til you beat bbs and how the mysterious figure isn't available till you defeat the vanitas remnant. It's because they are usually available after the main story has ended that their canon to the story is drawn into question.

And so far it's only been the main titles that the secret bosses have lead to grander things, such as the LW making a appearance in bbs, or the unknown becoming Xemnas in kh2 or the mysterious figure later being Young Xehanort along with his time travel concept.
So most of the secret bosses as a whole dont contribute nothing other than a fun battle.

 

[Gonzales95]

I'm with Draxem on this one. Why would it be non-canon? The only thing I do understand is the fact that KH games have the final save point system rather than a Post-Game environment, so things might be added in after (like the LW) but for a series like this, one that prides itself on story, they would not add in random non-canon battles just to confuse people.

Unknown is definitely canon.
Lingering Will is canon.
Mysterious Figure is also canon.
Julius. Canon. Doubt that they'll mention him in a cutscene again (75% sure he isn't story significant) but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

No one argues about the character being canon, but the character being canon doesn't mean that the event you fight them in the game actually is.
The only secret boss where it is actually confirmed that also the battle really happened is KH 1 Final Mix with Xemnas at Hollow Bastion.

All the other events(not the characters) can only be made assumptions about, that's the main point Gram makes, and actually a good one.

I remember even that it was Nomura himself that once stated somewhere that the battle against the Lingering Will in KH 2 Final Mix actually doesn't matter an inch, but the character of the Will itself does.

 

[Gram]

^ THANK YOU. =/ Just cause some things were implemented later dont mean the event itself happened. And besides only three of the secret bosses shown in the series have ended up with larger and canon roles.

 

[Draxem]

The point of debate here is that I don't understand why anyone should feel the need to debate if something that is in the game is canon or not. I am talking about these fights, whether or not they're mentioned again doesn't matter, Sora's fought a lot of people so if he doesn't quite remember Lingering Will straight away I'm fine with that. I am just repeating myself so this is actually the last time I post in this thread, I do not understand why you feel the need to debate whether the fight is canon or not when Nomura has never said ANYTHING in the games wasn't canon, is this just some general fan bullshit where you speculate to a point that you make your own rules up about the kingdom hearts universe? Banging a dead drum here so peace out.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

The point of the debate is exactly that because it doesn't matter what Nomura didn't say but what he did. The alternate scenes in Monstro in KH 1 (when Riku is already possessed by Ansem) if you finish Hollow Bastion before it are also not canon(as in never really happened), despite Nomura never saying they aren't.
The point is not to make up our own rules, but to keep in mind that not everything we see happening in the games also automatically happens in the story itself and thus is automatically canon in story-terms.

To stay with the example of Sora remembering the Lingering Will, he won't only not remember the Will straight away but never will because there is nothing for him to remember if Sora never met the LW actually in the story.
You can fight Sephiroth in the Coliseum in KH 1, yet the in-story-scenes in KH 2 show us that Sephiroth and Sora never met before and do not know each other (which can be deduced from their interactions), making the Sephiroth-fight in KH 1 non-canon by default regardless if Nomura said something about that or not.

 

[Solo]

The point is not to make up our own rules, but to keep in mind that not everything we see happening in the games also automatically happens in the story itself and thus is automatically canon in story-terms.

Truth be told, I think nothing better than this could've been said to explain everything.

Another, and possibly more familiar, example is that one scene in Blank Points, when Aqua was seen conversing with Ansem the Wise on the beach. When she asked who the boy's name was, we are then shown a clip of, among others, Terra and Ventus saying the name "Sora". But just because this happens in-game, does it automatically make it canon?

We know for a fact that during that conversation, Ventus was still asleep in CO and Terra was still under Xehanort's possession. For certain, they were obviously not in the Land of Departure. And on top of that, both Terra and Ventus shouldn't have known Sora's name. If this doesn't prove that not everything that happens in-game is canon, I'm sorry to say that I don't know what else will.

Draxem, if you happen to revisit this thread, please don't be upset about this. We were only trying to have a healthy discussion by stating what we know. I ask for your understanding.

 

[Gram]

The point is not to make up our own rules, but to keep in mind that not everything we see happening in the games also automatically happens in the story itself and thus is automatically canon in story-terms.

This debate wrapped up in one sentence.

 

[Sorakh212]

I must admit some of these ideas are quite creative and interesting to think about, but the unfortunate reality is that with the only exception being the lingering will fight most of these aren't likely going to happen. I think a Xion fight would be interesting especially since one of KH2FM's themes is fighting all of the organization XIII members. As for the armored fights there are already 2 if you include DDD so a Ven armor fight in KH2FM is sort of redundant. I'm still waiting to see if there will ever be an Aqua armor fight at some point because that would be really cool and could possibly happen some time in KH3. I think the coolest idea said though is getting Terra's keyblade after beating the lingering will because that is one of the coolest looking and strongest stat wise. Oh how I wish they could at least add that! One can dream though. Good ideas and nice creativity to say the least.

 

[Gram]

I think the coolest idea said though is getting Terra's keyblade after beating the lingering will because that is one of the coolest looking and strongest stat wise.

This, I've always wanted to rock that keyblade with sora. Xemnas wouldn't know what hit him.

 

[Lanydx reborn]

This, I've always wanted to rock that keyblade with sora. Xemnas wouldn't know what hit him.

Well it is Terra's body so he might....lol/

 

[Gram]

lmao That's what would make it such a wtf moment.