Editorial ► Why I fell out of love with Kingdom Hearts

[The Rocky Shoe]

Well I would also like to add that it's just ridiculous that there needs to be excuses for the protagonist to lose their abilities in every game. It's like as if they just throw away their cool stuff just to relearn the same thing. It just feels weird when the head of Magic of Disney Castle (Donald) can only use one spell story wise at the beginning of KH2. Why does he just bring in gameplay and story segregation so I don't feel like they have short-term memory.

Also the fact that Donald and Goofy are starting to become the Krillins of the Kingdom Hearts Universe. Just like D&G, Krillin was my fav character of his series. But then they made him so underpowered that he basically threw himself in battles just to die. I get the same feeling from Donald & Goofy. That they're basically going to be of little help until something that happened like in KH3D with Guardian getting rid of by an accident (which was weaksauce).

Edit: I sometimes just think that Sora can use his stuff from previous games, but just under the circumstances he temporarily can't. Like wasn't that machine suppose to bring his memories back 100%? Otherwise that's some coincidental BS that the only things that are gone are his abilities and spells.

 

[BlackOsprey]

^ Out of all the problems that exist in this series, I think that is the least of them. Whether there's an explanation for the ability reset or not, it's just gonna happen. That's how JRPG's with skills and levels have always rolled. KH just happens to incorporate the reset into its storyline rather than glossing over it like most games would.

 

[The Rocky Shoe]

^ Out of all the problems that exist in this series, I think that is the least of them. Whether there's an explanation for the ability reset or not, it's just gonna happen. That's how JRPG's with skills and levels have always rolled. KH just happens to incorporate the reset into its storyline rather than glossing over it like most games would.

It's just weird that these characters goes through a memory wipe of their abilities w/o any showing of refusal or worry, although that's what keeps them alive for so long. Like why wasn't Mickey in KH2 worried about their power when they were getting beaten by Dusk, which are significantly weaker than SoD. This makes me wonder how they're going to handle Aqua in 0.2 Fragmentary Passage, whether or not she has her abilities and how so. I just find it ridiculous. Sure it won't bother me much if it continues, but it just gnaw on me when I think about it.

 

[LightUpTheSky452]

^ Out of all the problems that exist in this series, I think that is the least of them. Whether there's an explanation for the ability reset or not, it's just gonna happen. That's how JRPG's with skills and levels have always rolled. KH just happens to incorporate the reset into its storyline rather than glossing over it like most games would.

I completely agree, of course, but some of it is a bit silly (though I can't imagine an alternative where it wouldn't be that way, tbh), like when the manga lampshades Chain of Memories' ability erasing by saying, "So does that mean dodge roll's just a regular roll now?"

Or this comic: *Filled with DETERMINATION

Them losing their memories really shouldn't account for them forgetting the most basic things, like how to roll.

Still a really minor problem (if it can really be called a problem at all) compared to everything else, though

 

[The Rocky Shoe]

Well for a more serious problem is Sora's character, especially in KH3D. He's too gullible and stupid in that game.

 

[Launchpad]

Honestly, if Sora is going to be a good main character in what is primarily a fantasy game, he shouldn't know much more or less than the player. He shouldn't feel extreme emotions that the player wouldn't otherwise agree with, either, so while his behavior in KH: CoM was better than acting like a moron in KH2, his angst towards Donald and Goofy felt strange, because I personally didn't want to ditch Donald and Goofy.

 

[Wonderful]

it's the players own fault if they didn't experiment with more than that and try to see what else they can do or find fun.

Flow motion negates combat altogether in favor of just slamming the ground.

if that's how ur using flowmotin isn't that kind of on you?

it seems to care very little about its characters and practically gives us nothing about them anymore.

i find this so foreign a statement to me since ddd held the most genuine and amazing character moments and interactions out of any of the recent games for me. coded was also pretty heavy on focusing on characterization as well.

For instance, when it was revealed that Coded would have a new scene in it that would help connect to DDD, a lot of us assumed it would show Sora and Riku leaving for their Mark of Mastery: MDG perhaps coming on the gummi ship to pick them up, the crew saying goodbye to Kairi, and maybe they'd even give us an explanation as to why Kairi suddenly decided to stay behind when she was so against the idea of it in KHII.

i don't know why anyone would really suspect a scene like that? the secret endings have always been used to drum up more mystery/mythology related stuff.

 

[DoctahFaz]

I do not believe we are owed any narrative explanation for an "ability reset" at the start. It's a game. It's not reasonable to expect to start at Level 100 with every ability, that would be no fun.

What is unreasonable, however, is the main point in the OP that most narrative explanation is in interviews and other media independent of the actual game. First off, if it's important, it should be in the actual game. Second off, I do agree that it kind of ruins the beauty of ambiguity and the potential for fan theories that aren't immediately disproven and thrown out by virtue of these interviews.

I love this series and while I'm not going to get to the point of being disillusioned, I do acknowledge that Anagram brings up some valid points.

 

[BlackOsprey]

It's just weird that these characters goes through a memory wipe of their abilities w/o any showing of refusal or worry, although that's what keeps them alive for so long. Like why wasn't Mickey in KH2 worried about their power when they were getting beaten by Dusk, which are significantly weaker than SoD.

Well, you also have to remember that SDG were sleeping for almost a year. With or without the memory-wiping shenanigans, it's a diddlying miracle that they can stand, let alone walk, run, or jump... and swordfighting should've been 100% out of the question.

Really, the way I see it, it was more the months-long nap that caused their stats to reset. All the missing abilities aren't necessarily forgotten; they just lost the means to access them. Kinda like... a quarterback's ability to throw a football. If a QB is out of practice and out of shape, he won't be able to throw a football as good as he used to not because he forgot, but because he's just not capable of it at the moment.

I know that the explanation and analogy don't tie up all the loose ends on what's bothering you, but it's something to consider.

 

[rawpower]

Let me elaborate more on why I'm right about the old menu system.

That menu system would be fine if it was for a turn-based RPG. Scrolling through a menu to find exactly what limit, spell, drive, or summon you want to do is fine when you don't really have to worry about your enemy attacking you while you figure out exactly what you want to do. When you're in the middle of an intense boss fight in Kingdom Hearts where your attacker isn't going to wait for you to scroll through a goddamn menu, it becomes pretty clear how idiotic that menu system is. It turns into a matter of either I'm just going whack the hell out of this guy with my keyblade and have my healing spell in my shortcut AND ONLY USE HEALING because I need to conserve my MP for that spell and that spell only, or I figure out the one moment when I have enough time to speed through the menu and choose a limit or summon but you better have the button press memorized to get to it or you're going to end up dead.

In comes BBS with the deck system. No lists of menus, only one simplified list of spells and special attacks. Each of these commands has its own reloading bar, so you don't have to worry about conserving your MP anymore, you can change up your fighting style from being on the defensive until you know that you'll be able to heal to being able to take an active offensive against your opponent while your healing spell is recharging. There's only one list that's easy to scroll through and still pay attention to what's going on during the fight. Not to mention you can use all manner of attacks during your fights instead of going through the "I can only whack this guy with the keyblade but if I'm lucky then maybe I'll trying using a limit but probably not because that takes up a lot of time."

Now as for the type of keyblade and leveling becoming meaningless, yeah I can see how that's an issue but clearly the deck commands and flow motion were experimental systems that might end up in KHIII. I believe this has been said by Nomura himself. Clearly needs to be reworked and tweaked but they're still better than what was had before. As for making which keyblade is being used more relevant I believe the keyblade transformations are the answer to that.

That old menu system was clearly made by people who weren't really familiar with action games but knew a thing or two about turn-based RPG's. It worked well enough, I won't deny that. It doesn't stop me from enjoying those old games. But I at least have the awareness to be able to look back and say "You know, that really wasn't that great and could have been done a lot better. That would be unacceptable for a new installment today." This isn't a matter of preference. It's a matter of recognizing when something is outdated and needs to be put to rest. I will not back down from this so if you really want to report me for spam, go right on ahead.

It's really confounding to me how anyone could say that they want that system to come back and honestly I'm surprised at just how many people actually want it to return. So when I said "I know this will probably piss off a lot of people" I figured that would include an insignificant amount of people. But if that really is your "preference" then I think you just haven't realized how outdated it is yet.

 

[The Rocky Shoe]

Well, you also have to remember that SDG were sleeping for almost a year. With or without the memory-wiping shenanigans, it's a diddlying miracle that they can stand, let alone walk, run, or jump... and swordfighting should've been 100% out of the question.

Really, the way I see it, it was more the months-long nap that caused their stats to reset. All the missing abilities aren't necessarily forgotten; they just lost the means to access them. Kinda like... a quarterback's ability to throw a football. If a QB is out of practice and out of shape, he won't be able to throw a football as good as he used to not because he forgot, but because he's just not capable of it at the moment.

I know that the explanation and analogy don't tie up all the loose ends on what's bothering you, but it's something to consider.

Thank you for your reasoning. I agree with this reason the most. I would like to add that I usually think the reason why they don't relearn the spells although they're fully capable of it is because by the time they maybe able to relearn them they already settled up techniques that's their former moves wouldn't fit in with.

As Limit form shows he didn't forget his KH1 moveset in KH2, but is obviously a completely different style of combat from his KH2. Therefore they basically just move on.

Although I find it funny that they didn't comment on their fighting being rusty.

 

[Chuman]

Let me elaborate more on why I'm right about the old menu system.

That menu system would be fine if it was for a turn-based RPG. Scrolling through a menu to find exactly what limit, spell, drive, or summon you want to do is fine when you don't really have to worry about your enemy attacking you while you figure out exactly what you want to do. When you're in the middle of an intense boss fight in Kingdom Hearts where your attacker isn't going to wait for you to scroll through a goddamn menu, it becomes pretty clear how idiotic that menu system is. It turns into a matter of either I'm just going whack the hell out of this guy with my keyblade and have my healing spell in my shortcut AND ONLY USE HEALING because I need to conserve my MP for that spell and that spell only, or I figure out the one moment when I have enough time to speed through the menu and choose a limit or summon but you better have the button press memorized to get to it or you're going to end up dead.

In comes BBS with the deck system. No lists of menus, only one simplified list of spells and special attacks. Each of these commands has its own reloading bar, so you don't have to worry about conserving your MP anymore, you can change up your fighting style from being on the defensive until you know that you'll be able to heal to being able to take an active offensive against your opponent while your healing spell is recharging. There's only one list that's easy to scroll through and still pay attention to what's going on during the fight. Not to mention you can use all manner of attacks during your fights instead of going through the "I can only whack this guy with the keyblade but if I'm lucky then maybe I'll trying using a limit but probably not because that takes up a lot of time."

Now as for the type of keyblade and leveling becoming meaningless, yeah I can see how that's an issue but clearly the deck commands and flow motion were experimental systems that might end up in KHIII. I believe this has been said by Nomura himself. Clearly needs to be reworked and tweaked but they're still better than what was had before. As for making which keyblade is being used more relevant I believe the keyblade transformations are the answer to that.

That old menu system was clearly made by people who weren't really familiar with action games but knew a thing or two about turn-based RPG's. It worked well enough, I won't deny that. It doesn't stop me from enjoying those old games. But I at least have the awareness to be able to look back and say "You know, that really wasn't that great and could have been done a lot better. That would be unacceptable for a new installment today." This isn't a matter of preference. It's a matter of recognizing when something is outdated and needs to be put to rest. I will not back down from this so if you really want to report me for spam, go right on ahead.

It's really confounding to me how anyone could say that they want that system to come back and honestly I'm surprised at just how many people actually want it to return. So when I said "I know this will probably piss off a lot of people" I figured that would include an insignificant amount of people. But if that really is your "preference" then I think you just haven't realized how outdated it is yet.

i agree with your entire post. as time goes by, i think both systems are lacking and a happy medius needs to be found. oerhaps instead of deck commands, an advanced shortcut system with the directional buttons. up for cure, up twice for aero, etc. there are many ways it can work but III needs to have a better system in order to keep from holding itself back.

 

[LightUpTheSky452]

Well for a more serious problem is Sora's character, especially in KH3D. He's too gullible and stupid in that game.

Some of it was justified, though. I mean, 3D was the first time that Sora was ever really to enjoy world visiting, without it (at first) going on simultaneously while something periling was. Naturally he was going to enjoy that.

And I think that he didn't freak out about the Ansem and Xehanort stuff because they were in the dream worlds, so Sora at first probably didn't even think they were real or a true threat to him.

I also get the sense that Ventus's personality effected Sora's in this game a lot. There are some hints to this, and it's even one of the things that the Xehanorts wanted to worry Sora with to pull him into the darkness.

...

@Wonderful: You've gotta keep in mind, however, that as awesome as Coded is (and I think that it really is, and it has some of the best writing, dialogue and humor that we've seen in this saga to date), that neither of those are the real Sora and Riku, so any real development they got in the game isn't really applied to their real incarnations that much, sadly.

Another thing about Coded and Dream Drop Distance are their abysmal treatment of the female characters. The fact that there's no Data Kairi--when by all accounts there should be--is just ridiculous.

And even the whole Data Naminé plot point really bothers me now, because we have an entire game about how Data Sora and Data Riku are saved and brought back numerous times, and how "they shouldn't have to go away", but what does Naminé get?

Oh, yeah: she appears for one scene to be little more than Miss Exposition, and states how "I'm only data meant to pass along a message. I shouldn't exist right now in this Journal at all. And now the record of me will disappear," and it/she does. We get no one fighting for her right to exist within the Datascape, no one complaining about her getting reset or how "it isn't right or fair", but gosh darn, our two golden boys sure get the better treatment.

As for Dream Drop Distance, they literally keep Kairi out of the game--in a way that makes little sense--to try and have a "shocking" secret ending. She shows up for five seconds at the end of the game with no dialogue, and is barely even referenced before that.

Aqua and Xion are hardly any better. We have Sora see or remember both of them two to three times, but Xion has one line of dialogue. One: "Riku, what do you wish?" And as for Aqua, she only says Ven's name.

Also, it just really bothers me that Hayden Panittiere came back to voice Xion in this game and not Kairi. I'm glad for the Xion thing, but I'm so sick of Kairi getting like no dialogue. This has been a continual problem since KHII.

By far, though, Naminé gets it the worst in Dream Drop Distance. She is in one scene: count it, one scene, and with absolutely no dialogue. Naminé: you know? The girl who until this point was the most important KH lady, and always had something to say or do, and in a lot of ways is the person who always tells our heroes what they need to do?

But the real kicker? It isn't even Naminé that we see! It's Xion! Which means Naminé isn't even in this game once, is never once referenced, and she doesn't even get shown in the cool credits at the end, like everyone else does. -sigh-

And as for how some people thought we might get a different type of secret ending to what we usually get? Well, I don't think at first it was confirmed to be a secret ending we were getting in Coded HD at all. Just a new scene. Plus, Blank Points isn't really as mind screwing and sequel baiting as some of the other secret movies, and is really just a closure thing, so something like that could have happened again.

...Upon rereading my words, Wonderful, I feel like it sounds like I'm lashing out at you. I'm so sorry about that! That's not my intention at all; you seem like a really cool person (that I'm enjoying debating with, actually), and I'm not mad at you at all. Rather, I'm mad at this series' continual bad treatment of its female characters.

Which is why I, personally, think even amidst all the moments of good characterization we get, it hardly stands on its own, because it is mixed within a mountain of bad.

 

[catcake]

This was an interesting read and as much as I hate to admit it, I agree with most of what you said. KH1 is still my favorite game ever and probably always will be, but ever since Days came out I've started to feel the same way as you. KH1 has huge amounts of nostalgia too, but it's not just that. It felt magical and amazing even on the first play. I still remember it clearly. I'll never forget flying around the Clock Tower for the first time. I always felt it should have ended with KH2. While CoM gameplay is so boring and frustrating that I could never manage to suffer through it, I actually really like KH2. Getting to play as Sora when he wakes up after waiting for the game for years… it was like being re-united with an old friend! The battle system is fun and FM, for me, made it even better with Absent Silhouets and critical mode. Sure the story was weird as hell, but at least it kind of wrapped up. It was passable enough. Sora's re-union with Kairi was really disappointing though, I'll give you that. Super awkward and didn't really make sense, but I was able to forgive it because, well, 15 year old boys are kind of awkward.

For me one of the things I've always loved the most about KH is the music. I love it so much and will never get tired of listening to the soundtracks. It's honestly like 70% of the charm for me. I don't even care about Disney, I was never especially a fan of their movies and I've never played Final Fantasy. I like KH the most when it's KH, not Disney or FF. The original worlds for me were always the best and I still love the heck out of End of the World and Hollow Bastion. The mood that the music sets is just so enchanting and amazing, and even just on it's own it's so good. I love it. My favorite music from anything ever, hands down. I'd probably play pretty much anything if you slap Shimomura on it.

I never liked BBS because every single character in it felt completely flat to me. The only one that made me feel anything was Vanitas - and even that was just because it felt weird to hear Sora's voice like that and see him make those expressions. It was also waaaay too easy, even on hardest difficulty I found myself trying to avoid grinding as much as possible to keep it even remotely interesting. Re:Coded is actually a pretty fun game if you just play it for the gameplay. It gets repetitive near the end but I can still enjoy it. DDD had a nice OST and I really enjoyed Traverse Town. That's really all I remember besides the ending that... made me really mad. No one actually died, here's some keyblades for all and time travel. I actually remember enjoying the game pretty okay until then, vaguely, but the ending just overshadows everything so hard that I'm not really even sure anymore.

Also something that has been bothering me is that the enemies have been getting really lame. Heartless felt pretty damn threatening! Darkside and Behemoth and Neoshadows and whatnot, they were actually creepy. Now in DDD we have fluffy puppycats and cute little lizards and snails and whatnot. I almost felt bad beating up a kitten.

But yeah. I'm really not sure how to feel about KH3. Sometimes I feel hopeful. Maybe, just maybe. Other times I'm worried it's going to destroy what good is still left. It looks overly flashy and relying in gimmicks. I've always liked KH fights as basic as possible, nothing feels more satisfying than a successful block and counter attack. In the newer games there's no need to learn your enemy's moves and plan anything out, just spam shotlock/flowmotion/whatnot and win. I want that hands-on feeling you get when you actually beat them with, you know, the keyblade. I don't want it to turn into a train and crash through the opponent.

I remember clearly the years after KH2 and all the discussion, fanart, terrible memes… the fandom was a trainwreck but still - mostly an entertaining one. Now it feels like we're all just tired adults who want to see the ending already hahh. Let's just hope we'll finally get KH3 in 2017. Maybe I'll too finally get off the ride.

 

[Anagram]

This was an interesting read and as much as I hate to admit it, I agree with most of what you said. KH1 is still my favorite game ever and probably always will be, but ever since Days came out I've started to feel the same way as you. KH1 has huge amounts of nostalgia too, but it's not just that. It felt magical and amazing even on the first play. I still remember it clearly. I'll never forget flying around the Clock Tower for the first time. I always felt it should have ended with KH2. While CoM gameplay is so boring and frustrating that I could never manage to suffer through it, I actually really like KH2. Getting to play as Sora when he wakes up after waiting for the game for years… it was like being re-united with an old friend! The battle system is fun and FM, for me, made it even better with Absent Silhouets and critical mode. Sure the story was weird as hell, but at least it kind of wrapped up. It was passable enough. Sora's re-union with Kairi was really disappointing though, I'll give you that. Super awkward and didn't really make sense, but I was able to forgive it because, well, 15 year old boys are kind of awkward.

For me one of the things I've always loved the most about KH is the music. I love it so much and will never get tired of listening to the soundtracks. It's honestly like 70% of the charm for me. I don't even care about Disney, I was never especially a fan of their movies and I've never played Final Fantasy. I like KH the most when it's KH, not Disney or FF. The original worlds for me were always the best and I still love the heck out of End of the World and Hollow Bastion. The mood that the music sets is just so enchanting and amazing, and even just on it's own it's so good. I love it. My favorite music from anything ever, hands down. I'd probably play pretty much anything if you slap Shimomura on it.

I never liked BBS because every single character in it felt completely flat to me. The only one that made me feel anything was Vanitas - and even that was just because it felt weird to hear Sora's voice like that and see him make those expressions. It was also waaaay too easy, even on hardest difficulty I found myself trying to avoid grinding as much as possible to keep it even remotely interesting. Re:Coded is actually a pretty fun game if you just play it for the gameplay. It gets repetitive near the end but I can still enjoy it. DDD had a nice OST and I really enjoyed Traverse Town. That's really all I remember besides the ending that... made me really mad. No one actually died, here's some keyblades for all and time travel. I actually remember enjoying the game pretty okay until then, vaguely, but the ending just overshadows everything so hard that I'm not really even sure anymore.

Also something that has been bothering me is that the enemies have been getting really lame. Heartless felt pretty damn threatening! Darkside and Behemoth and Neoshadows and whatnot, they were actually creepy. Now in DDD we have fluffy puppycats and cute little lizards and snails and whatnot. I almost felt bad beating up a kitten.

But yeah. I'm really not sure how to feel about KH3. Sometimes I feel hopeful. Maybe, just maybe. Other times I'm worried it's going to destroy what good is still left. It looks overly flashy and relying in gimmicks. I've always liked KH fights as basic as possible, nothing feels more satisfying than a successful block and counter attack. In the newer games there's no need to learn your enemy's moves and plan anything out, just spam shotlock/flowmotion/whatnot and win. I want that hands-on feeling you get when you actually beat them with, you know, the keyblade. I don't want it to turn into a train and crash through the opponent.

I remember clearly the years after KH2 and all the discussion, fanart, terrible memes… the fandom was a trainwreck but still - mostly an entertaining one. Now it feels like we're all just tired adults who want to see the ending already hahh. Let's just hope we'll finally get KH3 in 2017. Maybe I'll too finally get off the ride.

I'll give ya the music or Vanitas. Vanitas was a fun spot in an ocean of flat in BBS. Couldn't agree more on the enemies. I feel even heartless are even lame these days. I think that's mostly the cartoony recolors the final mixes give them though since the pureblood heartless still look like actually menacing monsters. lol

Tbh I felt absolutely nothing when KH3 got news after so many years. I still feel nothing for it even now since it's story was basically built by the games I dislike.

The Ansem not really being Ansem thing wasn't hinted until KHII at all, I don't think. And I think that's why it remains to be some people's most hated twist in this series, because it really gave nothing to the plot and was just this random thing that seemed to come out of nowhere.

Also, the Kingdom Hearts we see in KH1 not being the "real KH" wasn't mentioned until later. Almost like a retcon, if you will.

Those are just a few of the examples I can think of

...So, I just thought of two other problems with this series. One being something that Anagram just said in a comment: Nomura feels the need to make every game canon, when they probably don't need to be (thus muddying the plot even more), and...

The fact that this game seems so focused on its "amazing and shocking plot" these days, that it seems to care very little about its characters and practically gives us nothing about them anymore.

For instance, when it was revealed that Coded would have a new scene in it that would help connect to DDD, a lot of us assumed it would show Sora and Riku leaving for their Mark of Mastery: MDG perhaps coming on the gummi ship to pick them up, the crew saying goodbye to Kairi, and maybe they'd even give us an explanation as to why Kairi suddenly decided to stay behind when she was so against the idea of it in KHII.

What we got instead was some stupid, clustered mind-screw with Braig and YMX, talking about Chi stuff and how Xehanort's Keyblade is supposedly "the most ancient one", and them deciding to take Saïx with them or something.

This is why this saga barely has any character or humanity left to it. So annoying. And I can't even comprehend why they'd put a scene like that at the end of Coded to begin with, because a) it spoils things for people that haven't played DDD. And b) if someone who was watching that HADN'T played DDD--a very real possibility as these Remasters were supposed to bring in new and lost fans, and DDD hasn't been remastered yet--then they would have been confused as heck.

A real bizarre move on their part, and something I feel like would have been better placed somewhere else, while the added bonus to Coded should have been about MDG "passing along the message to the real Sora", or something, like they had built up in that game.

@Launchpad Looking back on it, your earlier comment kind of more easily summed up what I'm going for here. LOL. Basically, KH seems to have a problem of telling and not showing the bonds of the characters in their games, but it's really not effective at all and definitely something they should try and better somehow.

You get it well. T__T All these games truly didn't need to be important to the story. Something I had a long talk with before...can't remember who...(sephiroth0812 maybe?)

The actual problem with the series isn't the console spread but how relevant these games are which is being spread out.
For instance did Days really need to have plot elements or a brand new character that would be integral to later games? No. In fact early stuff was mostly promising a story of Roxas and his time with the Organization. That's all it really needed to be. A fun game you could indulge in if you so chose but it shouldn't have been necessary.

Fun fact: in KH2 interviews Nomura made it clear the original reason for Roxas leaving was to understand the keyblade and meet Sora. The progression to that point is all Days needed to explore.

Same for Chi which was said to be a simple fun browser game but turned into a necessary piece of info to know.

Basically I think the fact that they had to get so many games and put them into remastered collections on the PS3 just to try and draw new fans or catch up older ones that couldn't buy the spread out games is a sign of how poorly this route is to take.

Coded was probably the best handheld for this reason. It was fun, dialogue great, story short but it wasn't necessary to play it to know the series story.

if that's how ur using flowmotin isn't that kind of on you?

Not after I was two hours in. I did everything I could to avoid using flow motion. There was no way to avoid the dodge roll issue in closed in spaces but I managed elsewhere.

Let me elaborate more on why I'm right about the old menu system.

This isn't a matter of preference. It's a matter of recognizing when something is outdated and needs to be put to rest. I will not back down from this so if you really want to report me for spam, go right on ahead.

It's really confounding to me how anyone could say that they want that system to come back and honestly I'm surprised at just how many people actually want it to return. So when I said "I know this will probably piss off a lot of people" I figured that would include an insignificant amount of people. But if that really is your "preference" then I think you just haven't realized how outdated it is yet.

And it's just as confounding to me how your being still have such an attitude with your elaboration.

It is and always will be about preference. You can try to argue that all you want too but it wont change this. There isn't nothing to "recognize" other than your hating on what is opinions differing from your own and then trying to justify this by saying any opposing opinion hasn't "realized" something or by calling them stupid in some fashion like using the word moron.

It's about which system you prefer or which one a person finds dull, fun, annoying or broken.
The deck system is an incredibly broken mess to me and there's plenty of debate threads on this already we both can go to and quote from to get long walls explaining each side of the argument in great detail.

I will report you if you continue to insist on this idiocy because there is no reason to drag this out into a stupid argument over difference in preferences just so you can feel good about yourself for thinking your preferences are correct over anyone else. There's nothing wrong with liking different things and if your not mature enough to accept that then your not welcome here.

There's nothing "right" about your post now accept it and get over it. If you wanna argue this in this manner (since you've done made clear you wanna make this some big argument by saying "I wont back down from this") over respectable discussion or difference in preferences make your own thread.

There's several already that said they prefer one or the other in calm and acceptable ways. Follow their example.

 

[Taochan]

 

[Launchpad]

Let me elaborate more on why I'm right about the old menu system.

That menu system would be fine if it was for a turn-based RPG. Scrolling through a menu to find exactly what limit, spell, drive, or summon you want to do is fine when you don't really have to worry about your enemy attacking you while you figure out exactly what you want to do. When you're in the middle of an intense boss fight in Kingdom Hearts where your attacker isn't going to wait for you to scroll through a goddamn menu, it becomes pretty clear how idiotic that menu system is. It turns into a matter of either I'm just going whack the hell out of this guy with my keyblade and have my healing spell in my shortcut AND ONLY USE HEALING because I need to conserve my MP for that spell and that spell only, or I figure out the one moment when I have enough time to speed through the menu and choose a limit or summon but you better have the button press memorized to get to it or you're going to end up dead.

In comes BBS with the deck system. No lists of menus, only one simplified list of spells and special attacks. Each of these commands has its own reloading bar, so you don't have to worry about conserving your MP anymore, you can change up your fighting style from being on the defensive until you know that you'll be able to heal to being able to take an active offensive against your opponent while your healing spell is recharging. There's only one list that's easy to scroll through and still pay attention to what's going on during the fight. Not to mention you can use all manner of attacks during your fights instead of going through the "I can only whack this guy with the keyblade but if I'm lucky then maybe I'll trying using a limit but probably not because that takes up a lot of time."

Now as for the type of keyblade and leveling becoming meaningless, yeah I can see how that's an issue but clearly the deck commands and flow motion were experimental systems that might end up in KHIII. I believe this has been said by Nomura himself. Clearly needs to be reworked and tweaked but they're still better than what was had before. As for making which keyblade is being used more relevant I believe the keyblade transformations are the answer to that.

That old menu system was clearly made by people who weren't really familiar with action games but knew a thing or two about turn-based RPG's. It worked well enough, I won't deny that. It doesn't stop me from enjoying those old games. But I at least have the awareness to be able to look back and say "You know, that really wasn't that great and could have been done a lot better. That would be unacceptable for a new installment today." This isn't a matter of preference. It's a matter of recognizing when something is outdated and needs to be put to rest. I will not back down from this so if you really want to report me for spam, go right on ahead.

It's really confounding to me how anyone could say that they want that system to come back and honestly I'm surprised at just how many people actually want it to return. So when I said "I know this will probably piss off a lot of people" I figured that would include an insignificant amount of people. But if that really is your "preference" then I think you just haven't realized how outdated it is yet.

I'll agree with you that NAVIGATING the command deck was much better, however, magic and limits with cool-downs is dumb. The balancing was horrible, and the games were horrible because of it. This is why a lot of people prefer the command menu, because the games were not anywhere near as shitty as the games without it.

 

[Wonderful]

The actual problem with the series isn't the console spread but how relevant these games are which is being spread out.

i feel nomura was in a no-win situation there. if he didn't make the games relevant then people would complain that they weren't relevant (look how much people hate on coded for being "pointless" etc) and that they were just milking the franchise, wasting time, not developing kh3 for useless spinoffs etc; but if he did make them relevant then it leads to the console spread problem and all that. there was no real way for him to win.

 

[Anagram]

i feel nomura was in a no-win situation there. if he didn't make the games relevant then people would complain that they weren't relevant (look how much people hate on coded for being "pointless" etc) and that they were just milking the franchise, wasting time, not developing kh3 for useless spinoffs etc; but if he did make them relevant then it leads to the console spread problem and all that. there was no real way for him to win.

Nomura definitely isn't entirely alone in fault here. Many games came about that weren't intended to start with. Namely Days itself was due to Nintendo. However they didn't need to be crucially relevant. Days being Roxas' story of how he came to his decision to leave in KH2 would've been relevant enough of his character without adding anything necessary to know since we already knew in KH2 that he left for these reasons.
Days could've been that journey. Also remember that a lot of people that complain about Coded are also ones that mention they haven't played it. The cry of "unnecessary" has also be said of Days. Especially when it first came out and it's hate groups was strong.

He just needed a balance which he didn't achieve here. You can have fun and relevant side stories without making them crucial later to games that's not even fully thought out like KH3.

Edit. Nomura is also always slammed with other projects as well.

 

[The Rocky Shoe]

I agree with what a lot of ya'll had to say.

Really Nomura needs other people to help him with the games' writing and story. Because really i feel some of the characters do questionable stuff. Like these plot holes might be small but they're there.

Like why didn't the TVA trio just talk to each other? Are they not suppose to be friends? It's like they didn't know how to communicate with each other at all.

Also really I'm just worried that D&G will get in the back of the KH plot, with them becoming basically irrelevant for Sora to take all the spotlight.

Also will Sora ever question why would he would give up his Drive Forms for his normal clothes, unless they make him more powerful than his previous clothes, or do we just accept it because... ANTI FORM. THE DARKNESS!