The "Real" Villain of Kingdom Hearts

[kupo1121]

Besides what other's have said that the trope of a greater force behind it all being overused, introducing an even GREATER force would be ridiculous because the sheer time of introducing them (unless they were like Ansem in KH1 where they were hinted at for a very long time) would take awhile I presume...

 

[Chaser]

(e.g., like with the theory about the Guardian being the true villain which has been around for a while).

I would much rather the guardian be Terra.

 

[Noonem]

I can't wait until it was Mickey all along

I would much rather the guardian be Terra.

I don't get this theory, how can the guardian be Terra? I thought AnsemSoD was already the nobody of Terranort, so where would've this guardian come from?

 

[Chaser]

I can't wait until it was Mickey all along


I don't get this theory, how can the guardian be Terra? I thought AnsemSoD was already the nobody of Terranort, so where would've this guardian come from?

Ansem SoD is a heartless. The nobody of Terranort is Xemnas.

You have to ask the question where Terra's heart went. There's a few things that suggest his heart is in the Guardian. One is how it reached out to Riku in Dream Drop Distance. The other is how there's a special attack during the Terranort fight with Aqua where you have to get to Terra and then do a combined attack to hurt the Guardian.

 

[Noonem]

I don't know, it never seemed like Terra's heart actually left his body separately from Xehanort's, more like Master Xehanort took his heart over completely. I always thought that the guardian was an extension of AnsemSoD, maybe the only reason he appears is because there were two hearts inside apprentice Xehanort when he blew himself up, so it could very well be Terra, but to me that doesn't explain why AnsemSoD and Xemnas look more like Terra than Xehanort, and where is Terra's Nobody?

 

[Solo]

but to me that doesn't explain why AnsemSoD and Xemnas look more like Terra than Xehanort, and where is Terra's Nobody?

Wouldn't that be because they were born from Apprentice Xehanort's complete being? Apprentice Xehanort is in fact MX in Terra's body, so it makes sense that at least Xemnas looks like Terra. Had MX lost his heart prior to possessing Terra, then the birthed Nobody would've looked like MX himself.

And isn't the Robed Figure Xehanort's floating heart, essentially a Heartless itself? Then as we know, he went on to possess Riku. I remember reading somewhere that every time we see Ansem SoD on-screen, we're actually seeing Xehanort's Heartless in Riku's body. This piece of information may not be relevant, but is possibly worth noting.

 

[Zettaflare]

The theory of the guardian being the one pulling xehanort's strings is interesting but unlikely. He wasn't even born until xehanort created him during his fight against aqua

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Overused practiced as it may be, the "true villain" practice isn't that bad if it's used correctly. I like the idea of Guardian (or maybe even RF) being the true puppeteer because it really questions if one can control the darkness, or if that control is merely an illusion.

Maleficent thought she could use the darkness by controlling the Heartless, but it ended up using her; having MX being a pawn himself this whole time would be more or less the same.

The main issue isn't that it isn't "bad" if used correctly but that it has been already done to death in the KH series. Even if used correctly all the time there is only a limited number of uses you can do with a single plot device before it becomes stale and eventually either bores or alienates the audience.
They already had a similar setup in Final Fantasy IV with Kain being controlled by Golbez, but Golbez again being controlled by Zemus, yet in KH it's even worse than that.

Guardian being the true puppeteer is a theory that has been around since BBS, and knowing Nomura I doubt that he would go on a route that obvious while the RF is really just a piece in the overall grand plan. Just like Count Dooku was just a piece in Darth Sidious' grand scheme.

The main problem that arises though if you question MX's control of the darkness and thus imply the heinous actions he takes as not of his own free choosing, but manipulated by the darkness (either RF or Guardian or whatever else entity comes to mind) works like a total boomerang that would reduce the "Darkness has not to be evil"-statement to absurdity.
In that case, Eraqus and other Masters would be completely correct in sealing/imprisoning Darkness wherever it is found because any "control" you can possibly have is only an illusion. The arguments that Darkness has to be sealed away/given no quarter at all would then gain much more credibility not even because it's "evil", but because it's something that cannot be controlled, so access to it must be made as slim as possible.

We have been fighting the same being since the beginning, he has the same conscience which in turn means they all think the same. Xemnas and Ansem SoD is just MX split into two. They all want Kingdom Hearts so they can reach higher existence.

It didn't matter if Xemnas or Ansem SoD would do it first, MX would still be the winner.

And that's exactly what's wrong about this sentence, as they have not all the same consciousness and mind, as Nomura explicitly stated that Ansem SoD and Xemnas function on minds of their own. They have part of Xehanort, yes, and act according to his will, but they aren't MX's own consciousness.
In DDD, MX's own consciousness actually does manifest himself in Young Xehanort overriding YX's own consciousness, as that's what allows YX to suddenly summon a Keyblade.

That is correct though, but because they were all working towards the same goal. To Sora & co, it seemed like Ansem or Xemnas where the highest up guys in charge, when in reality they were just enforcers/Generals acting on order of MX himself while still giving each of their plans a spin of their own.

Funny thing about that is Nomura said that despite Ansem and Xemnas being apart of MX they each have their own distinct minds from one another.

Correct.
In DDD, we even get to see an example of that when MX's consciousness overrides Young Xehanort's, proving that it's not just one consciousness divided between several bodies/incarnations.

The theory of the guardian being the one pulling xehanort's strings is interesting but unlikely. He wasn't even born until xehanort created him during his fight against aqua

Moreso it's so obvious to deduce that it's almost too easy.

 

[Noonem]

Wouldn't that be because they were born from Apprentice Xehanort's complete being? Apprentice Xehanort is in fact MX in Terra's body, so it makes sense that at least Xemnas looks like Terra. Had MX lost his heart prior to possessing Terra, then the birthed Nobody would've looked like MX himself.

I never realised that they did become a complete being. If anything the secret ending confirmed that the two hearts were in one body. Kinda like Sora and Ventus, it's pretty obvious Roxas is Ventus's nobody rather than Sora's, being that Sora's body was still around when Roxas wasn't whole, and he freaking looks like Ventus. So I'd think there would be another nobody that was more Xehanort than Terranort.

I think...

I don't know

And isn't the Robed Figure Xehanort's floating heart, essentially a Heartless itself? Then as we know, he went on to possess Riku. I remember reading somewhere that every time we see Ansem SoD on-screen, we're actually seeing Xehanort's Heartless in Riku's body. This piece of information may not be relevant, but is possibly worth noting.

poof my brain

 

[Solo]

I never realised that they did become a complete being. If anything the secret ending confirmed that the two hearts were in one body. Kinda like Sora and Ventus, it's pretty obvious Roxas is Ventus's nobody rather than Sora's, being that Sora's body was still around when Roxas wasn't whole, and he freaking looks like Ventus. So I'd think there would be another nobody that was more Xehanort than Terranort.

However, Roxas is Sora's Nobody, not Ventus'.

If my understanding is correct, Roxas looks like Ventus because of Ventus' heart. Sora's heart was only lost in darkness for so long, not long enough for Roxas to completely assume his form, and thus he drew his appearances from Ventus.

And also, Sora's body is with Roxas (or rather, Roxas is Sora's body) throughout Roxas' existence; even after his restoration by Kairi's light, he remained a floating heart. It didn't cause Sora's heart to return to his physical body, only washed out the darkness that surrounded his heart, and thus, he wasn't actually whole until his assimilation with Roxas in KH2.

 

[Kevin Perez]

How about this? When defeating the final boss/villian, the game ends with KH1 Sora waking up in the beach as we saw in the original game. WHAM! It was all dream! Two days later, Sora and Kairi are on the dock with the sunset going down and the final lines before the credits roll are "I just can't wait. Once we set sail, it'll be great". WHAM!

Kingdom Hearts: You Can (Not) Repeat

 

[Noonem]

If my understanding is correct, Roxas looks like Ventus because of Ventus' heart. Sora's heart was only lost in darkness for so long, not long enough for Roxas to completely assume his form, and thus he drew his appearances from Ventus.

And also, Sora's body is with Roxas (or rather, Roxas is Sora's body) throughout Roxas' existence; even after his restoration by Kairi's light, he remained a floating heart. It didn't cause Sora's heart to return to his physical body, only washed out the darkness that surrounded his heart, and thus, he wasn't actually whole until his assimilation with Roxas in KH2.

This doesn't explain when Sora is brought back by Kairi, Roxas still remains, that Roxas still remains until he combines himself back with Sora. Sora always had his body and his nobody at the same time. He was never a floating heart, since I have never actually seen any proof of him ever being one. I don't think it was ever necessary for Roxas to actually combine with Sora, because it sure wasn't necessary for Sora to go to sleep because he had a nobody, it's because Naminé needed him to stay there so she could restore his memories, memories which were locked up with Xion and then Roxas, but if Sora had never gone to Castle Oblivion, which is silly I know, but if he hadn't Roxas would've still existed and Sora would've still been travelling with Goofy and Donald none the wiser. And even when Sora and Roxas are combined Roxas still has a presence in Sora which is nothing like any other nobody turned back human. And if Sora did get a nobody and that was Roxas, wouldn't it make sense for Ventus to get a nobody too?

Kingdom Hearts: You Can (Not) Undo

It all returns to nothing, it all comes tumbling down, tumbling down, tumbling down.

 

[Solo]

This doesn't explain when Sora is brought back by Kairi, Roxas still remains, that Roxas still remains until he combines himself back with Sora. Sora always had his body and his nobody at the same time. He was never a floating heart, since I have never actually seen any proof of him ever being one. I don't think it was ever necessary for Roxas to actually combine with Sora, because it sure wasn't necessary for Sora to go to sleep because he had a nobody, it's because Naminé needed him to stay there so she could restore his memories, memories which were locked up with Xion and then Roxas, but if Sora had never gone to Castle Oblivion, which is silly I know, but if he hadn't Roxas would've still existed and Sora would've still been travelling with Goofy and Donald none the wiser.

Then does the bolded part itself not prove that Sora is a floating heart who still hadn't regained his body? Or, in other words, a heart that took an appearance of a human, yet still without a body?

And that's exactly why Roxas had to assimilate with Sora. If Sora really regained his body back then, there would have been no need to go through the trouble of capturing Roxas for him to return to.

And even when Sora and Roxas are combined Roxas still has a presence in Sora which is nothing like any other nobody turned back human. And if Sora did get a nobody and that was Roxas, wouldn't it make sense for Ventus to get a nobody too?

Roxas is still present in Sora because he chose with his conscious volition to assimilate with him. The other ex-Nobodies, like Lea, don't have their Nobodies' presence ion them because they have been destroyed prior to their recompletion.

And I'm just theorising, but aren't Nobodies created only if someone who has a strong heart loses his heart to the darkness? When Roxas was born, Ventus' heart was still asleep and inactive (and would continue to be so until stirred by Xion's death, yet continued to sleep), which is why probably his Nobody wasn't formed.

Actually, there's a thread that touches on this matter, which is right here: http://forums.khinsider.com/kingdom-hearts-iii/182126-why-heartless-cannot-use-keyblade.html. You might want to refer to this one and continue the discussion there so as not to derail the topic of this thread.

 

[Chaser]

How about this? When defeating the final boss/villian, the game ends with KH1 Sora waking up in the beach as we saw in the original game. WHAM! It was all dream! Two days later, Sora and Kairi are on the dock with the sunset going down and the final lines before the credits roll are "I just can't wait. Once we set sail, it'll be great". WHAM!

Kingdom Hearts: You Can (Not) Repeat

Because that's a gigantic middle finger to the general audience. "Hey you played through all these games and learnt about the importance of friendship etc. btw, none of it's real"

 

[Javelin434]

Because that's a gigantic middle finger to the general audience. "Hey you played through all these games and learnt about the importance of friendship etc. btw, none of it's real"

Admittedly, it'd be one helluva plot twist...

 

[Solo]

Admittedly, it'd be one helluva plot twist...

Truly so, but a horrible one at that. It may allow the developers to come up with completely unrelated concepts that defy everything we've known thus far to be used for the next saga, but I really wouldn't want that.

It's like baking a beautiful, delicious cake and showing it to everyone else only to flush it down the toilet bowl. KH without Keyblades, Heartless, and the theme on light and darkness and the power of friendship... I'm having a hard time imagining it.

 

[Zettaflare]

Admittedly, it'd be one helluva plot twist...

and it would cause an uproar in the entire fanbase. square enix would be getting hate mail for years, lol

 

[Kevin Perez]

LOL guize, I was joking. I was simply coming up with another half-assed, half-baked, contrived idea as a shocking twist than the idea of another major antagonist pulling the strings.

 

[The_Echo]

One could make the argument that the true villain of Kingdom Hearts is Darkness itself. Without its influence, Xehanort would never have grown into the man he became.

Going even further back, it was the power and influence of Darkness that nearly ended the World to begin with.

I would much rather the guardian be Terra.

I'm sort of wondering whether or not the Guardian may actually be Eraqus.

I mean... it's the Guardian... Terranort/Ansem was Terra's body... of course I have little else to back this up, but I feel it might hold more ground than it being Terra's heart (which I've sort of taken to believe as being bound inside the body not unlike Ventus).

 

[Noonem]

Then does the bolded part itself not prove that Sora is a floating heart who still hadn't regained his body? Or, in other words, a heart that took an appearance of a human, yet still without a body?

No it doesn't. It doesn't prove in any way that Sora is a floating heart. No Ansem report has ever said that he was, and nothing on screen proves that he ever was. It's very contrived that Sora's heart would take the form of his own appearance and it doesn't stand on anything.

And that's exactly why Roxas had to assimilate with Sora. If Sora really regained his body back then, there would have been no need to go through the trouble of capturing Roxas for him to return to.

There's no proof that Roxas had to combine with Sora for him to wake up, the only reason he did was because he had no other choice, basically his whole life. And the reason why everyone went through with the trouble of keeping Roxas in the digital Twilight Town was because he had Sora's memories locked within him. Roxas being apart from Sora was never the reason why Sora had to go to sleeeeeeeeep.

Roxas is still present in Sora because he chose with his conscious volition to assimilate with him. The other ex-Nobodies, like Lea, don't have their Nobodies' presence on them because they have been destroyed prior to their recompletion.

And I'm just theorising, but aren't Nobodies created only if someone who has a strong heart loses his heart to the darkness? When Roxas was born, Ventus' heart was still asleep and inactive (and would continue to be so until stirred by Xion's death, yet continued to sleep), which is why probably his Nobody wasn't formed.

I doubt that the heart weakens when someone is asleep, but I have no idea so that could very well be the case. Still doesn't explain why, to me alteast, does Roxas look like Ventus.

Actually, there's a thread that touches on this matter, which is right here: http://forums.khinsider.com/kingdom-hearts-iii/182126-why-heartless-cannot-use-keyblade.html. You might want to refer to this one and continue the discussion there so as not to derail the topic of this thread.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaafuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuckididn'treadthisbeforeihadeverythingwrittenuuuppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp

Sorry, I will go to this thread now. But to be fair all of this this stems from my question of why Master Xehanort doesn't have his own nobody.