About Terra and Master Xehanort

[Sephiroth0812]

I was just saying that it was interesting ;A;

And I said that this was very likely exactly Xemnas' agenda.
Beside that though, I think Ven has been through enough bad stuff already by having his heart shattered twice, used to forge a weapon and almost be enslaved by a crazy maniac who was created from his own darkness.
As for why Saix wanted to find the chamber ("for our own reasons", as he said to Axel in Days) I dunno. What would Saix and Axel do with a comatose body? *scratches head*

 

[Memory Master]

For all those saying that Terra being one the current 13 Darknesses defeats the purpose of his confidence in BBS's secret ending. Did you not hear what Terra told MX, "Even if you do wrestle my heart from me. Even if you cast me into the darkest abyss. You'll never sway me from the one cause that keeps me fighting. Whatever the cost i'm willing to pay it." In other words Terra knew MX would probably go to extreme lengths to carry out his plans, Terra knew it was a possibility that he could be put through years of terrible things MX could do to him (Like becoming a heartless and nobody), but that in the end he would stop MX. As Terra said, "You're going to get shown the door, old man."

When dealing with someone like MX, sometimes you have to go to just as many extremes as he does, and to patiently wait just as MX does, in order to find a way to out smart and beat him.

Terra is one of the 13 seekers of darkness right now. But by no means does that mean that Terra has lost to MX. I'm sure MX isn't the only one with backup plans in the works. Terra has Eraqus' heart inside of him, and therefore Eraqus' light. There is an escape route for Terra in all of this madness MX has done to his body and heart, but what that is remains to be seen.

This type of planning isn't uncommon in stories. Mostly villains are known for this type of extensive deception, but heroes have done it as well. It's like a game of chess between MX and Terra, even if Terra isn't directly in control of himself, he would have had someway to ensure he could take control of himself again and force whatever remains of MX in him out.

----------------------------

Sometimes a hero has to play the bad guy, or allow the bad guy to use him or win a few times, to ensure the bad guy loses the war. I believe this is what we are seeing with Terra.

Terra is not Aqua. Aqua has certain lines she is not willing to cross over, even if doing so would stop MX. Terra on the other hand is willing to cross certain lines if it means stopping MX in the end. When Terra said he would pay any price to stop MX, I think we all damn well take Terra literally. Nothing is off the table when it comes to what Terra will do to stop MX (Except for going after his friends of course, since that would defeat the whole purpose of what drives Terra to keep fighting MX)

In KH3 i'm sure Terra is going to get his moment when he's freed of MX and probably has done something to really screw up MX's plan and MX is like, 'You mean you..." and Terra gives a slight victory smirk, "Yes, from the very begining."

And and by the way, Terra and MX's heart fused together to create one heart when MX took Terra over in BBS. It wasn't two seperate hearts inside of Terranort. It was one heart created from a fusion of their hearts. Terranort and Sora are different in the whole having multiple hearts inside of them. Sora's heart isn't fused with Roxas, Xion, or Ventus' hearts. Sora's heart is housing their dormant sleeping hearts, but their hearts are still seperate from Sora's heart. The proof of this is that Sora has not had any physical changes to his appearance despite their hearts being inside of him.

In the case of Terranort, Terra and MX's hearts were fused. MX wanted and believed he could use Terra's darkness to consume Terra's heart. But Terra's heart was more resistant than he predicted. The result was a single heart, created via the fusion of Terra and MX's heart.

Since the awakening stain glass pilars are the inside of a heart and the image on the stain glass reflects the state of that person's heart, then Terranort's heart should look like this at the end of BBS, just imagine an image of MX on one side and Terra on the other, one awakening so one heart, but created via fusing of two hearts. Terranort's awakening probably looked like the one Ventus and Vanitas fought their final battle on (One side of the pillar being Vanitas, the other side being Ventus). Showing MX and Terra still in conflict. But obviously since MX has seem to gain almost all control over Terra, and even though he is no longer in Terranort he still left a fragment of his heart in Terranort and a damn powerful since that was his direct vessel for a period of time. So in KH3D Terranort's awakening probably shows Terra with white hair, tan skin, ect, but their is problem something like a wayfinder symbol or 3 wayfinder symbols on his awakening to show there is still a part of Terra that MX will never be able to control.

 

[RoadtoDawn]

Isn't Terra's current body Ansem SoD? My question is: when Ansem became a Heartless, what happened to Terra's heart? We know Ansem became his own Heartless, but Terra is left a mystery.

This got me thinking. I was always rather confused when it was indicated that Ansem left his body behind, then took over Riku, and that's why he looks how he does--but if that were the case I'd expect him to look a lot more like Riku. Recall that Roxas looks like Ven because he has Ven's heart with his. What if Ansem SoD took Terra's heart with him, and that's why his appearance looks somewhere between Terra/Riku/artistic license? He doesn't look completely like Terra like Roxas did with Ven because Terra was fighting back, as was Riku(some of the time). That would mean come KH3, we're going to have to pull Ven out of a willing host, and Terra out of an unwilling host. That could cause some problems.

 

[Smithee]

For all those saying that Terra being one the current 13 Darknesses defeats the purpose of his confidence in BBS's secret ending. Did you not hear what Terra told MX, "Even if you do wrestle my heart from me. Even if you cast me into the darkest abyss. You'll never sway me from the one cause that keeps me fighting. Whatever the cost i'm willing to pay it." In other words Terra knew MX would probably go to extreme lengths to carry out his plans, Terra knew it was a possibility that he could be put through years of terrible things MX could do to him (Like becoming a heartless and nobody), but that in the end he would stop MX. As Terra said, "You're going to get shown the door, old man."

When dealing with someone like MX, sometimes you have to go to just as many extremes as he does, and to patiently wait just as MX does, in order to find a way to out smart and beat him.

Terra is one of the 13 seekers of darkness right now. But by no means does that mean that Terra has lost to MX. I'm sure MX isn't the only one with backup plans in the works. Terra has Eraqus' heart inside of him, and therefore Eraqus' light. There is an escape route for Terra in all of this madness MX has done to his body and heart, but what that is remains to be seen.

This type of planning isn't uncommon in stories. Mostly villains are known for this type of extensive deception, but heroes have done it as well. It's like a game of chess between MX and Terra, even if Terra isn't directly in control of himself, he would have had someway to ensure he could take control of himself again and force whatever remains of MX in him out.

----------------------------

Sometimes a hero has to play the bad guy, or allow the bad guy to use him or win a few times, to ensure the bad guy loses the war. I believe this is what we are seeing with Terra.

Terra is not Aqua. Aqua has certain lines she is not willing to cross over, even if doing so would stop MX. Terra on the other hand is willing to cross certain lines if it means stopping MX in the end. When Terra said he would pay any price to stop MX, I think we all damn well take Terra literally. Nothing is off the table when it comes to what Terra will do to stop MX (Except for going after his friends of course, since that would defeat the whole purpose of what drives Terra to keep fighting MX)

In KH3 i'm sure Terra is going to get his moment when he's freed of MX and probably has done something to really screw up MX's plan and MX is like, 'You mean you..." and Terra gives a slight victory smirk, "Yes, from the very begining."

And and by the way, Terra and MX's heart fused together to create one heart when MX took Terra over in BBS. It wasn't two seperate hearts inside of Terranort. It was one heart created from a fusion of their hearts. Terranort and Sora are different in the whole having multiple hearts inside of them. Sora's heart isn't fused with Roxas, Xion, or Ventus' hearts. Sora's heart is housing their dormant sleeping hearts, but their hearts are still seperate from Sora's heart. The proof of this is that Sora has not had any physical changes to his appearance despite their hearts being inside of him.

In the case of Terranort, Terra and MX's hearts were fused. MX wanted and believed he could use Terra's darkness to consume Terra's heart. But Terra's heart was more resistant than he predicted. The result was a single heart, created via the fusion of Terra and MX's heart.

Since the awakening stain glass pilars are the inside of a heart and the image on the stain glass reflects the state of that person's heart, then Terranort's heart should look like this at the end of BBS, just imagine an image of MX on one side and Terra on the other, one awakening so one heart, but created via fusing of two hearts. Terranort's awakening probably looked like the one Ventus and Vanitas fought their final battle on (One side of the pillar being Vanitas, the other side being Ventus). Showing MX and Terra still in conflict. But obviously since MX has seem to gain almost all control over Terra, and even though he is no longer in Terranort he still left a fragment of his heart in Terranort and a damn powerful since that was his direct vessel for a period of time. So in KH3D Terranort's awakening probably shows Terra with white hair, tan skin, ect, but their is problem something like a wayfinder symbol or 3 wayfinder symbols on his awakening to show there is still a part of Terra that MX will never be able to control.

I know someone who disagrees, saying that Terra doesn't have the mental strength to Out-Gambit MX. How do you suggest I respond to this person?

 

[Relix]

I doubt Terra can out-think MX, perhaps do something completely reckless and going against common-sense like what LW pulled, but not outright planning and plotting to ditch MX.

So Nomura deliberately avoids telling us where Terra's heart is, but he did say that (its implied) that Eraqus' is heart rested in Terra's body? What's he getting at?

 

[Smithee]

I doubt Terra can out-think MX, perhaps do something completely reckless and going against common-sense like what LW pulled, but not outright planning and plotting to ditch MX.

So Nomura deliberately avoids telling us where Terra's heart is, but he did say that (its implied) that Eraqus' is heart rested in Terra's body? What's he getting at?

I don't see why he can't. After all, he's had more than a decade to improve his thinking capabilities, not to mention the possibility that being fused with MX has allowed Terra to absorb some of MX's knowledge.

 

[JustSnilloc]

I don't see why he can't. After all, he's had more than a decade to improve his thinking capabilities, not to mention the possibility that being fused with MX has allowed Terra to absorb some of MX's knowledge.

I don't see why he can, we see no evidence of Terra being remotely in control for a decade

 

[Smithee]

I don't see why he can, we see no evidence of Terra being remotely in control for a decade

Likewise, we see no evidence of Terra NOT being remotely in control for a decade.


P.S: Where are Memory Master and his walls of text when I need them?!

 

[Relix]

From what I've seen Xehanort was in control the entire time ( I mean the whole scene with him stabbing the crap outta everyone with his key blade as apprentice Xehanort at least points out that MX was at the helm at that point). Terra isn't exactly known for his cunning, slick, or clever before, in fact he's proven otherwise by being doped by almost every villain he's ever come across (I mean Hook? C'mon).

Dont get me wrong, I've always been a fan of Terra for his genuinuity, but he's not that clever to outsmart Xehanort, from the evidence we've seen. Xehanort has outsmarted Eraqus, Yen Sid, Mickey, EVERYONE, and Terra's gonna be the one to get the slip on him? This I gotta see. I can see Terra probably getting "help" from a certain someone that Xehanort wouldn't see coming but to outwardly outthink Xehanort on his own, when the guy has planned everything out from day 1? They better give an amazing explanation for the sudden change in character.

Terra's a goal oriented guy who approaches these goals with brute power

 

[Mirby]

As for why Saix wanted to find the chamber ("for our own reasons", as he said to Axel in Days) I dunno. What would Saix and Axel do with a comatose body? *scratches head*

Well Isa and Lea did meet Ven when they were human... Though judging by Saix's inclusion as one of the 13 darknesses, I have a feeling it was less his own reasons and more Xehanort's, and using the bond from when they were human to guide Axel and trick him into looking again.

Dont get me wrong, I've always been a fan of Terra for his genuinuity, but he's not that clever to outsmart Xehanort, from the evidence we've seen. Xehanort has outsmarted Eraqus, Yen Sid, Mickey, EVERYONE, and Terra's gonna be the one to get the slip on him? This I gotta see. I can see Terra probably getting "help" from a certain someone that Xehanort wouldn't see coming but to outwardly outthink Xehanort on his own, when the guy has planned everything out from day 1? They better give an amazing explanation for the sudden change in character.

He learned some smarts by watching from within his heart? Studied Xehanort's plans and everything since it was really all he could do? I dunno

 

[Relix]

He learned some smarts by watching from within his heart? Studied Xehanort's plans and everything since it was really all he could do? I dunno

Wouldn't Xehanort have thought of that? If he came up with a plan to threat Yen Sid from catching on, I think he'd have something planned for the punk looking over his shoulder ;P

 

[Neko]

Wouldn't Xehanort have thought of that? If he came up with a plan to threat Yen Sid from catching on, I think he'd have something planned for the punk looking over his shoulder ;P

I agree with you. Even if Terra has been watching Xehanort's actions all this time and knows his plans, Xehanort is bound to have something up his sleeve. I think that Terra will have to wait for an opening to use that strength of his to overcome Xehanort's hold on him. For example, if an outside force manages to either weaken Xehanort to the point that Terra overcomes Xehanort, Terra is awakened to the point that his will and strength of heart overcomes Xehanort(like if Aqua, Ven, or Riku reaches him), an inside force acts with him(Eraqus), or someone figures out a way to separate the fused hearts.

 

[Mirby]

Yeah, he'll have to wait for an opening. Just as MX took over Terra's body while it was weakened, I'm sure Terra will have to do the same thing to break free. With outside intervention this time, of course.

 

[Smithee]

He learned some smarts by watching from within his heart? Studied Xehanort's plans and everything since it was really all he could do? I dunno

Stuff like that isn't unheard of.

Just look at what Phoenix Wright did to Kristoph Gavin, for example.

 

[Relix]

Stuff like that isn't unheard of.

Just look at what Phoenix Wright did to Kristoph Gavin, for example.

Yeah but you gotta consider the candidates involved in the situation. Terra - keyblade user of brute force vs Master Xehanort - keyblade master of cunning and deceit.

I believe something similar to Aqua helping Terra in the fight against Terranort needs to occur. You remember, how Aqua was in this bright place and found Terra standing there and they both attacked Terranort's Guardian from the inside and out? It didn't require cunning and outsmarting, something both Aqua and Terra can not do, but just forcing their way through Xehanort's control. That's the only way they've been able to best Xehanort and all his incarnations thus far, illogical willpower of the heart if you will.

Which makes me wonder what is the status of Terra's heart

 

[Smithee]

Yeah but you gotta consider the candidates involved in the situation. Terra - keyblade user of brute force vs Master Xehanort - keyblade master of cunning and deceit.

I believe something similar to Aqua helping Terra in the fight against Terranort needs to occur. You remember, how Aqua was in this bright place and found Terra standing there and they both attacked Terranort's Guardian from the inside and out? It didn't require cunning and outsmarting, something both Aqua and Terra can not do, but just forcing their way through Xehanort's control. That's the only way they've been able to best Xehanort and all his incarnations thus far, illogical willpower of the heart if you will.

Which makes me wonder what is the status of Terra's heart

Why not ask Memory Master about the whole "Terra eventually outsmarting MX" theory?

It's his theory, after all. I'm just backing it.

 

[Memory Master]

To all the people saying Terra lacks the mental capacity to come up with a way to stop MX and possible free himself: Do you all really think Terra is just stupid or what? Look i'll admit MX completely outsmarted him in BBS. But Terra is not dumb enough to not learn from his mistakes. No one can be sure exactly what Terra and possibly Eraqus have planned, but it's apparent they have a plan. Not to mention some of MX's clever scheming and sneaky ways have had to rub off on Terra considering all the time they have spent tied to one another. If MX's personality can rub off on Xigbar and Saix then surely the same can be said even more so for Terra who MX was controlling directly. Aside from that we also know that when it comes to protecting his friends Terra will do almost anything. I'm telling do not understestimate the lengths this guy will go to protect his friends and by extension stopping MX.

On top of that we can even look at hints from Nomura. Notice how Nomura has been vague on how Eraqus features into the whole Terranort equation. Also notice how Nomura has been vague on Terra's status. He's purposely doing this so I think it's clear Nomura has something big planned for Terra. If so then it brings up the logical conclusion that if Terra has a big part to play in KH3, then he (Terra) must have had a plan leading up to this big role.

Next let's look at some moments in the series where we can clearly see Terra's will showing itself despite the fact that MX has been in control of him for 10 years.

1. Xehanort's Heartless' appearance: When Xehanort's Heartless took over Riku's body and shaped into one like his own, we see it mostly looks like MX but still retains Terra's youth.

2. Xemnas in the chamber of repose: Aqua's armor was precious to Xemnas. He kept it and stored it in the chamber of repose where he could go to it. He even refers to it as "Friend". Obviously a clear sign of Terra's influence. What if Xemnas had moments where Terra's will was temporarily stronger than his own, and as such Terra's will would lead Xemnas to go to the chamber of repose to visit Aqua's armor, hoping that being near it would help him (Terra) gain more and more control. We know that the chamber of repose likely has a purpose other than simply storing Aqua's armor, so here is an interesting question: What if Terra built the chamber of repose for a purpose that would somehow help him combat MX?

3. Finally we have the fact that Nomura stated once that a part of Terra may reside in Riku. If a part of Terra does reside in Riku then at some point (Likely when the light of KH destroyed XH) Terra must have gained enough control to place this piece inside of Riku.

So I think it's pretty clear that Terra can, and has, shown he can combat MX's will, and the fact he continues to have the ability to act of his own accord shows that Terra has not been completely consumed by MX. And as the secret ending of BBS showed, Terra has a plan. Since we can see Terra still has not been completely consumed by MX, then why should we think he has abandoned his plan? After all Terra made clear there is nothing MX could do that would make his stop fighting. The question is what exactly Terra's plan is.

 

[Relix]

Combating someone's will is not the same outsmarting. Xehanort has outsmarted, outplayed, and outmatched the tacticians and masters of this series with little effort. The wisest people of the series. Terra is not one of them. The only time he's trumped MX in any way was through sheer willpower and strength. Terra knows MX knows more than him, Terra knows MX can outsmart him, but Terra's will is all he has that Xehanort cannot combat, well not through cunning means anyway. Pretty words won't put Terra on an equal playing field as Xehanort.

For example's sake take Suzaku and Lelouch, or if you want to remain in the kh universe, Sora and any incarnation of Xehanort. One side are expert tacticians, liars, and masters at what they do while the other relies solely on their willpower, not their intelligence. And do not mistake knowledge for wisdom. Terra may not be an idiot but he IS niave. He may not be unintelligent but he is far from the wisdom required to match Yen Sid, let alone Xehanort.

Terra relies on willpower and strength to achieve his goals. When MX had the master plan in BBS, Terra's master plan? Swing my keyblade and make sure I protect what I want to protect. Lingering Will is pretty much the embodiment of Terra's character: the materialization of pure willpower. That's who Terra. That's the Terra we've seen. That's the same Terra who's gonna need that willpower to find a way to push Xehanort out.

And if you think Xehanort rubbing off on Terra is the way he can suddenly outsmart Xehanort than you don't believe he can outsmart Xehanort on his own either and are grasping on to wishful thinking

 

[Smithee]

Combating someone's will is not the same outsmarting. Xehanort has outsmarted, outplayed, and outmatched the tacticians and masters of this series with little effort. The wisest people of the series. Terra is not one of them. The only time he's trumped MX in any way was through sheer willpower and strength. Terra knows MX knows more than him, Terra knows MX can outsmart him, but Terra's will is all he has that Xehanort cannot combat, well not through cunning means anyway. Pretty words won't put Terra on an equal playing field as Xehanort.

For example's sake take Suzaku and Lelouch, or if you want to remain in the kh universe, Sora and any incarnation of Xehanort. One side are expert tacticians, liars, and masters at what they do while the other relies solely on their willpower, not their intelligence. And do not mistake knowledge for wisdom. Terra may not be an idiot but he IS niave. He may not be unintelligent but he is far from the wisdom required to match Yen Sid, let alone Xehanort.

Terra relies on willpower and strength to achieve his goals. When MX had the master plan in BBS, Terra's master plan? Swing my keyblade and make sure I protect what I want to protect. Lingering Will is pretty much the embodiment of Terra's character: the materialization of pure willpower. That's who Terra. That's the Terra we've seen. That's the same Terra who's gonna need that willpower to find a way to push Xehanort out.

And if you think Xehanort rubbing off on Terra is the way he can suddenly outsmart Xehanort than you don't believe he can outsmart Xehanort on his own either and are grasping on to wishful thinking

See Took A Level In Badass, specifically this part:

• Phoenix Wright in Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney. Seven years of fighting to take down Kristoph and clear his name have turned him from a downtrodden lawyer whose main skills are luck and bluffing to a complete Magnificent Bastard who played puppetmaster to Apollo and was the architect behind completely reforming the justice system just to make sure Kristoph goes down and goes down hard.

The moral: people can change.

KH3-Terra may turn out to be a completely different person than BBS-Terra. If 7 years made such a drastic change in Phoenix Wright, imagine what 11 years may have done for Terra.

 

[Relix]

If you want to believe Terra is capable of outsmarting Xehanort, something that the smartest and wisest people in this series failed to do, instead of him overpowering Xehanort like he's always done and has shown to be the only thing Xehanort is not capable of combatting then be my guest. I mean Xehanort's been outsmarted before right?