Convoluted theory: Xehanort has 2 Heartless/Nobodies and is a vessel

[des97]

I'll start by saying that I had no idea where to post this, so feel free to move it to the most appropriate subforum.
We all know what lack of KH information leads to: theories, convoluted theories. Such as this one I'm about to tell you.
Nomura loves playing with words: Xehanort, as everybody knows, has two anagrams while the X is removed: Another and No Heart. This has been stated so many times it kind of becomes useless to repeat it. But hold on. Could the "X" mean something more? We know it represents the "Recusant's sigil" (English adaptation from the Japanese 異端の印 -Itan no Shirushi-, "Mark of Heresy"). What is this sigil? It's a signature, a sort of seal, a printing. And Xehanort DOES have it. This can potentially mean he's been marked already. Marked by what or by who, you may ask. The most ancient keyblade (aka No Name) could lead to something. The first ever known wielder of this keyblade was the MoM, who then handed it over Luxu, along with a box whose contents are still unknown. Among the six apprentices, Luxu is the only one to have an X on his name. It looks like there is a relation between wielding the No Name keyblade and having an X on one's name. You might already stop me and say: "But all the Org. XIII members had an X in their names, this makes no sense" Well, MX's plan B was to divide his heart into 13 parts, and Xemnas probably followed that plan, failing for reasons that are irrelevant for the continuation of the topic. As you have certainly already noticed by now, this topic is mere speculation. But I'll go on regardless. So, the X. A mark. What if the X represents MoM's heart? The sigil would then represent a somewhat form of the MoM. This could also potentially mean that Xehanort is a part of a bigger plan (which I know has been discussed before, so I will not take credit for that). Nomura's stated that the MoM will not appear in KH3. This probably means our beloved Tetsuya wants him to be present in KH4, or whatever you want to call the next title(s). If that is the case, he already has everything set up. A long preface and I'm still not explaining the theory properly. Damn, I'm so bad at this. Anyway, let's get to the other point. When MX stabs himself to take control of Terra's body, he must've released both a Heartless and a Nobody. The Heartless may be the Guardian, the Nobody is No Heart. Not having a heart is the sole requirement for being a Nobody. No Heart's appearance resembles a Nobody: his toggles are a blatant evidence. Terranort/Apprentice Xehanort then proceeds to repeat the same process between KHBBS and KH1, creating Ansem SoD and Xemnas. The Guardian seems to follow his leader. This means that Ansem SoD may be the sum of two Heartless. When Xemnas and Ansem SoD are defeated, Terranort is revived. When No Heart and the Guardian are defeated, MX is revived.
That is all. Let me know how you feel about that

 

[Ballad of Caius]

The thought of Master Xehanort being "Another" (heeheehee) puppet has been addressed before, but not as specifically as you've tried. It's majorly rejected because it undermines Xehanort as just "Another" (sorry, I can't help myself, haha) tool on an even grander scheme. The idea of MX leaving a Heartless and Nobody aside after stabbing himself has also been speculated. I use the word "speculation" because I don't think there exists hint or evidence that MX left a Heartless and Nobody after he stabbed himself.

Also, like Oracble Spockanort told me in another thread concerning Nomura saying that the MoM won't be in KH3: don't believe Nomura-san. He either blatantly lied, or he "poetically" lied.

 

[KeybladeKnightQ]

Nice theory but I don’t think that’s what’s going to happen/happened. No Heart is just Xehanorts Keyblade Armor that Xehanort stoped wearing after he began to embrace the darkness. When you fight him in BBS Final Mix it’s just a simulation of Master Xehanort inside it. The armor is later adopted by Xemnas who used it in his fight with Sora and co. The Person needs to become a heartless in order for a nobody to be born. Xehanort’s heart didn’t it took over Terra’s body. And his body just vanished. I doubt the guardian itself is Xehanort (though there is a popular theory that Terra’s heart is the Guardian due to the scene in DDD with Riku defeating Ansem SOD) because Xehanort’s heart is the heart that’s dominating and commanding Terra’s body. I do believe Terranort is revived but I believe that due to be the current time Xemnas and Ansem SoD to be merged back together while the ones we see from DDD onward are just them time traveled. How Master Xehanort has come back I have no idea but I think it’s for a reason that hasn’t been explained yet that will be in KH3

 

[Sephiroth0812]

I use the word "speculation" because I don't think there exists hint or evidence that MX left a Heartless and Nobody after he stabbed himself.

The main issue with this one is that as far as is known, in order to create a Heartless the heart in question needs to be lost to darkness, either by succumbing to its own darkness or by being stolen/consumed by another Heartless.
The creation of a Nobody is even more rare as only in a few instances when a Heartless is created it also spawns a Nobody.

Master Xehanort stabbing himself in BBS in order to possess Terra and create Terra-Xehanort fulfills none of the criteria for the creation of either a Heartless or a Nobody as he didn't lose his heart to darkness.

The whole process simply wasn't started at all as the notion of "separating a heart from its body" = "creation of a Heartless and Nobody" is a false equivalence.
This misinterpretation can also be observed when people ask about anyone who ever lost their hearts (like Riku in KH 1 when Ansem SoD banished his heart from its own body or Ventus in BBS when his heart was too damaged to retain control of its body) having a Nobody when it simply doesn't work that way.
Not even the notion of "creating a Heartless" = "creating a Nobody" is correct as not every Heartless created has a corresponding Nobody. A Nobody is a rare occurrence.

Xehanort merely transferred his heart to a different container, a power true Keyblade Masters are capable of using as described in the BBS Xehanort Reports, so while there indeed remains a sort of "sentiment" of his old body, with the current knowledge base it cannot be insinuated that this was a Nobody nor that a Nobody was actually created.

 

[des97]

I must also state that gelandporn's Rebirth theory has influenced me, so I'm gonna give props to him as well.

The thought of Master Xehanort being "Another" (heeheehee) puppet has been addressed before, but not as specifically as you've tried. It's majorly rejected because it undermines Xehanort as just "Another" (sorry, I can't help myself, haha) tool on an even grander scheme. The idea of MX leaving a Heartless and Nobody aside after stabbing himself has also been speculated. I use the word "speculation" because I don't think there exists hint or evidence that MX left a Heartless and Nobody after he stabbed himself.

Also, like Oracble Spockanort told me in another thread concerning Nomura saying that the MoM won't be in KH3: don't believe Nomura-san. He either blatantly lied, or he "poetically" lied.

We need as well to play on the word "Another" I guess lol. Anyway, we didn't have much evidence regarding the brown robe, but look what happened. Yeah, I know it looks like a retcon, but still. The point I'm trying to make is that at the current state of knowledge there is nothing much we can do but speculate. It may be a "gut feeling", but I don't think anything in this game is left to chance. That X must mean something.
About the MoM: I seriously do not know what to believe anymore. I just have the feeling KHUX is going to be relevant for the next saga.

Nice theory but I don’t think that’s what’s going to happen/happened. No Heart is just Xehanorts Keyblade Armor that Xehanort stoped wearing after he began to embrace the darkness. When you fight him in BBS Final Mix it’s just a simulation of Master Xehanort inside it. The armor is later adopted by Xemnas who used it in his fight with Sora and co. The Person needs to become a heartless in order for a nobody to be born. Xehanort’s heart didn’t it took over Terra’s body. And his body just vanished. I doubt the guardian itself is Xehanort (though there is a popular theory that Terra’s heart is the Guardian due to the scene in DDD with Riku defeating Ansem SOD) because Xehanort’s heart is the heart that’s dominating and commanding Terra’s body. I do believe Terranort is revived but I believe that due to be the current time Xemnas and Ansem SoD to be merged back together while the ones we see from DDD onward are just them time traveled. How Master Xehanort has come back I have no idea but I think it’s for a reason that hasn’t been explained yet that will be in KH3

If it's just Xehanort's Keyblade Armor, how would you explain the Nobodies symbols on its chest and toggles? Why would Square Enix take the time to program 2 "Secret" Bosses without giving them any canonicity? Yeah, I agree that Ansem SoD and Xemnas are dead and the ones we see in KH3D come from the past. I was simply theorizing that Ansem SoD + Xemnas = Terranort and Guardian (or "Another" Xehanort Heartless) + No Heart = Master Xehanort

The main issue with this one is that as far as is known, in order to create a Heartless the heart in question needs to be lost to darkness, either by succumbing to its own darkness or by being stolen/consumed by another Heartless.
The creation of a Nobody is even more rare as only in a few instances when a Heartless is created it also spawns a Nobody.

Master Xehanort stabbing himself in BBS in order to possess Terra and create Terra-Xehanort fulfills none of the criteria for the creation of either a Heartless or a Nobody as he didn't lose his heart to darkness.

The whole process simply wasn't started at all as the notion of "separating a heart from its body" = "creation of a Heartless and Nobody" is a false equivalence.
This misinterpretation can also be observed when people ask about anyone who ever lost their hearts (like Riku in KH 1 when Ansem SoD banished his heart from its own body or Ventus in BBS when his heart was too damaged to retain control of its body) having a Nobody when it simply doesn't work that way.
Not even the notion of "creating a Heartless" = "creating a Nobody" is correct as not every Heartless created has a corresponding Nobody. A Nobody is a rare occurrence.

Xehanort merely transferred his heart to a different container, a power true Keyblade Masters are capable of using as described in the BBS Xehanort Reports, so while there indeed remains a sort of "sentiment" of his old body, with the current knowledge base it cannot be insinuated that this was a Nobody nor that a Nobody was actually created.

You definitely know more than I do and this kinda cut off my legs. I still hope there are elements of truth in this theory haha
For instance, when Sora became a Heartless, his heart was lost to darkness, so why couldn't MX's heart be lost as well? We also see MX trying to "nortify" Sora at the end of KH3D. This time, he does not transfer his whole heart, but just a part of it. This means there are several ways to transfer one's heart. Nevertheless, your points seem more valid than mine.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

We need as well to play on the word "Another" I guess lol. Anyway, we didn't have much evidence regarding the brown robe, but look what happened. Yeah, I know it looks like a retcon, but still. The point I'm trying to make is that at the current state of knowledge there is nothing much we can do but speculate. It may be a "gut feeling", but I don't think anything in this game is left to chance. That X must mean something.
About the MoM: I seriously do not know what to believe anymore. I just have the feeling KHUX is going to be relevant for the next saga.


If it's just Xehanort's Keyblade Armor, how would you explain the Nobodies symbols on its chest and toggles? Why would Square Enix take the time to program 2 "Secret" Bosses without giving them any canonicity? Yeah, I agree that Ansem SoD and Xemnas are dead and the ones we see in KH3D come from the past. I was simply theorizing that Ansem SoD + Xemnas = Terranort and Guardian (or "Another" Xehanort Heartless) + No Heart = Master Xehanort



You definitely know more than I do and this kinda cut off my legs. I still hope there are elements of truth in this theory haha

The word "Another" certainly points towards the many different "versions" and vessels Xehanort himself is using to accomplish his own ambitions, this already validates the anagram in itself.
The "No Heart" moniker may also be meant more metaphysical rather than literally considering Xehanort's sociopathic tendencies, total lack of empathy and acknowledgement of the awfulness/misery many of his actions cause as well as treating other sentient lifeforms as nothing but pawns for his own ambitions all point towards him metaphorically having "no heart".
Or tl;dr: "No Heart" is poetic speech for "He's a uncaring jerkish scumbag".

The X meaning something more is certainly not far off the mark as it clearly predates Xehanort and the original japanese meaning of "Mark of Heresy" points towards it being the ominous "sigil" the great traitor can be identified with as is written on the Lost page according to Gula from X[chi]-Back Cover.
"Heresy" can mean both "false teaching" and "rebelling against established teachings" and it is further established in both the Original Browser-version of X[chi] and Back Cover that the "traitor" apparently had some sort of epiphany and now actively seeks the End of the World/Apocalypse instead of trying to avert it.

Same goes for the No Name/Goatblade as it may indeed be something that neither starts nor ends with Xehanort. Young Xehanort himself stated in Re: Codeds new secret ending that he inherited that blade with some sort of "will" or "legacy" attached.
Nonetheless though all this doesn't have to mean that Xehanort himself is just another pawn in a greater scheme (as this would seriously undermine how he was portrayed throughout the whole series so far), as it can just as easily be Xehanort playing along with whatever this bigger scheme is to further his own ambitions or maybe even hijacking it and defeating him won't end this conspiracy but rather put it back on track on its originally intended road.

Who can actually confirm that this even is the "Nobody-symbol" to begin with? Xemnas and the original Organisation may have adopted it as the official emblem of their cult but it doesn't mean they invented the symbol nor that this was its original meaning.

That armor was worn by Xehanort in his youth, way before the existence of Nobodies was discovered so that should give more food for thought.
Furthermore, not all secret bosses are included to directly intertwine with the canon storyline. So far, both No Heart and the Armor of Eraqus are simulations in the Mirage Arena and the journal entries of them speak more as if they are something similar to Lingering Will or Vanitas' Remnant rather than a Nobody or something similar.

There are certainly parts included that may point correctly to there being more to the whole issue than a first glance might show, as I already detailed above, just probably not in the relation to Xehanort you speculate to be there.
It's nonetheless a good thing to indulge in those speculations in any case. ;D

 

[des97]

The word "Another" certainly points towards the many different "versions" and vessels Xehanort himself is using to accomplish his own ambitions, this already validates the anagram in itself.
The "No Heart" moniker may also be meant more metaphysical rather than literally considering Xehanort's sociopathic tendencies, total lack of empathy and acknowledgement of the awfulness/misery many of his actions cause as well as treating other sentient lifeforms as nothing but pawns for his own ambitions all point towards him metaphorically having "no heart".
Or tl;dr: "No Heart" is poetic speech for "He's a uncaring jerkish scumbag".

The X meaning something more is certainly not far off the mark as it clearly predates Xehanort and the original japanese meaning of "Mark of Heresy" points towards it being the ominous "sigil" the great traitor can be identified with as is written on the Lost page according to Gula from X[chi]-Back Cover.
"Heresy" can mean both "false teaching" and "rebelling against established teachings" and it is further established in both the Original Browser-version of X[chi] and Back Cover that the "traitor" apparently had some sort of epiphany and now actively seeks the End of the World/Apocalypse instead of trying to avert it.

Same goes for the No Name/Goatblade as it may indeed be something that neither starts nor ends with Xehanort. Young Xehanort himself stated in Re: Codeds new secret ending that he inherited that blade with some sort of "will" or "legacy" attached.
Nonetheless though all this doesn't have to mean that Xehanort himself is just another pawn in a greater scheme (as this would seriously undermine how he was portrayed throughout the whole series so far), as it can just as easily be Xehanort playing along with whatever this bigger scheme is to further his own ambitions or maybe even hijacking it and defeating him won't end this conspiracy but rather put it back on track on its originally intended road.

Who can actually confirm that this even is the "Nobody-symbol" to begin with? Xemnas and the original Organisation may have adopted it as the official emblem of their cult but it doesn't mean they invented the symbol nor that this was its original meaning.

That armor was worn by Xehanort in his youth, way before the existence of Nobodies was discovered so that should give more food for thought.
Furthermore, not all secret bosses are included to directly intertwine with the canon storyline. So far, both No Heart and the Armor of Eraqus are simulations in the Mirage Arena and the journal entries of them speak more as if they are something similar to Lingering Will or Vanitas' Remnant rather than a Nobody or something similar.

There are certainly parts included that may point correctly to there being more to the whole issue than a first glance might show, as I already detailed above, just probably not in the relation to Xehanort you speculate to be there.
It's nonetheless a good thing to indulge in those speculations in any case. ;D

No Heart only having a metaphorical meaning is something I cannot accept and never will. I believe Nomura hid something in it but I fear we might be going around in circles despite these hints.

The X might then suggest that either the MoM or Luxu is the traitor.

I get along with the theory that Xehanort is exploiting his destined role to fulfill his desires. This would not discredit the MX's picture we've constructed so far while keeping alive the possibility of a bigger scheme being around the corner.

The Nobody symbol can be seen on Dusks. It is without a doubt the same symbol. I don't want to call it evidence, but No Heart as a name is a hint, his chest is another hint. Two hints may be more than just a coincidence, but who knows.

Why would SE bother making 2 Secret Bosses and just call them "simulations"? I don't think anyone would be satisfied about that. Not even Nomura. If you know what I mean.

Furthermore, I'd like to point out something regarding the Guardian: given that it is indeed a pureblood Heartless (the hole in his chest resembles the Darkside's), it is first seen during the battle between Terranort and Aqua, meaning it didn't exist before Terra and MX merged. If the Guardian is a Heartless, and Ansem SoD is a Heartless as well, this may give a point to my theory.

PS: I'm really enjoying this conversation

 

[Smithee]

The Guardian isn't Terra.

When Aqua enters Terranort's "Heartscape" (or whatever), the Guardian is shown to exist separately from Terra (in fact, he can even help her double-team the thing).

If anything, it seems to just be Xehanort's equivalent to Vanitas's Unversed and/or Terra's Lingering Will.

 

[des97]

The Guardian isn't Terra. When Aqua enters Terranort's "Heartscape" (or whatever), the Guardian is shown to exist separately from Terra (in fact, he can even help her double-team the thing). If anything, it seems to just be Xehanort's equivalent to Vanitas's Unversed and/or Terra's Lingering Will.

I never said it was though

 

[Sephiroth0812]

No Heart only having a metaphorical meaning is something I cannot accept and never will. I believe Nomura hid something in it but I fear we might be going around in circles despite these hints.

The X might then suggest that either the MoM or Luxu is the traitor.

I get along with the theory that Xehanort is exploiting his destined role to fulfill his desires. This would not discredit the MX's picture we've constructed so far while keeping alive the possibility of a bigger scheme being around the corner.

The Nobody symbol can be seen on Dusks. It is without a doubt the same symbol. I don't want to call it evidence, but No Heart as a name is a hint, his chest is another hint. Two hints may be more than just a coincidence, but who knows.

Why would SE bother making 2 Secret Bosses and just call them "simulations"? I don't think anyone would be satisfied about that. Not even Nomura. If you know what I mean.

Furthermore, I'd like to point out something regarding the Guardian: given that it is indeed a pureblood Heartless (the hole in his chest resembles the Darkside's), it is first seen during the battle between Terranort and Aqua, meaning it didn't exist before Terra and MX merged. If the Guardian is a Heartless, and Ansem SoD is a Heartless as well, this may give a point to my theory.

PS: I'm really enjoying this conversation

It can go seriously either way with the anagram in itself although no matter how one turns it so far the anagrams of Xehanort's name mainly do have more of a thematic influence/reflection of how Xehanort works and behaves rather than a direct meaning.

It doesn't even have to be Xehanort's destined role in particular he's exploiting if he's just hijacking/piggybacking on something to further his ambitions, as he has always done so far. He may not even give a damn about any bigger scheme that might be there or who's involved in it as Xehanort has been shown to only do what benefits and interests himself.

And that proves exactly what? Dusks bearing the symbol do not make a decisive statement about if this symbol was adapted or newly created for the Nobodies to use. The Keyblade armor seen on No Heart is Xehanort's old Keyblade armor and thus predates anything concerning the Nobodies and the Organisation, which hints more towards it not being newly created to be the sigil of the Nobodies.

Because SE wanted to add extra stuff to BBS Final Mix and throw in a peek preview of how Eraqus' and Xehanort's armors look like is the most simple explanation.
The Vanitas Sentiment, the Org XIII data battles in KH 2 Final Mix or Julius in DDD also have no deeper meaning or impact on the actual canon.
In fact, there was only ever a single secret boss per game that was tied to the story itself, Unknown (Xemnas) in KH 1 Final Mix, Lingering Will in KH 2 Final Mix and Mysterious Figure (Young Xehanort) in BBS/BBS Final Mix.

It not being seen doesn't automatically mean it didn't exist as it may have been simply dormant and was activated by Xehanort just for the first time in that fight.
There's also the possibility that it is simply Xehanort's own Darkness given form, which is similar to a Heartless but not exactly truly a Heartless because it isn't Xehanort's heart consumed/lost to Darkness like i.e. Ansem SoD is.
In that vein one also has to take note that the Guardian always remains attached to its summoner, thus being more of an extension rather than an entire being of its own.

Generally we don't really know anything about the Guardian's nature and species, as despite having many similarities with a Pureblood Heartless it is never addressed as such nor does it have a journal entry in any of the games that could provide further hints, often called simply "Xehanort's shadow" or "shadowy other" in the battle messages.

That's how it supposed to be. Such conversations should be an enjoyable exchange of viewpoints and interpretations.

The Guardian isn't Terra.

When Aqua enters Terranort's "Heartscape" (or whatever), the Guardian is shown to exist separately from Terra (in fact, he can even help her double-team the thing).

If anything, it seems to just be Xehanort's equivalent to Vanitas's Unversed and/or Terra's Lingering Will.

The Guardian may possibly also have something to do with or being connected to the No Name Keyblade as except one instance it is always absent when the Guardian is out used by Terra-Xehanort.

 

[des97]

It doesn't even have to be Xehanort's destined role in particular he's exploiting if he's just hijacking/piggybacking on something to further his ambitions, as he has always done so far. He may not even give a damn about any bigger scheme that might be there or who's involved in it as Xehanort has been shown to only do what benefits and interests himself.

And that proves exactly what? Dusks bearing the symbol do not make a decisive statement about if this symbol was adapted or newly created for the Nobodies to use. The Keyblade armor seen on No Heart is Xehanort's old Keyblade armor and thus predates anything concerning the Nobodies and the Organisation, which hints more towards it not being newly created to be the sigil of the Nobodies.

Because SE wanted to add extra stuff to BBS Final Mix and throw in a peek preview of how Eraqus' and Xehanort's armors look like is the most simple explanation.
The Vanitas Sentiment, the Org XIII data battles in KH 2 Final Mix or Julius in DDD also have no deeper meaning or impact on the actual canon.
In fact, there was only ever a single secret boss per game that was tied to the story itself, Unknown (Xemnas) in KH 1 Final Mix, Lingering Will in KH 2 Final Mix and Mysterious Figure (Young Xehanort) in BBS/BBS Final Mix.

It not being seen doesn't automatically mean it didn't exist as it may have been simply dormant and was activated by Xehanort just for the first time in that fight.
There's also the possibility that it is simply Xehanort's own Darkness given form, which is similar to a Heartless but not exactly truly a Heartless because it isn't Xehanort's heart consumed/lost to Darkness like i.e. Ansem SoD is.
In that vein one also has to take note that the Guardian always remains attached to its summoner, thus being more of an extension rather than an entire being of its own.

Generally we don't really know anything about the Guardian's nature and species, as despite having many similarities with a Pureblood Heartless it is never addressed as such nor does it have a journal entry in any of the games that could provide further hints, often called simply "Xehanort's shadow" or "shadowy other" in the battle messages.

That's how it supposed to be. Such conversations should be an enjoyable exchange of viewpoints and interpretations.

His destiny, one's destiny. Makes no difference, as everybody but Sora seems to be having a prewritten role (Rebirth theory reference).

I dunno, that symbol is a representation of a category. The same applies for the other emblems that appear in the franchise. Even though it simply was an emblem present in MX's armor, a meaningless motif, why would the Organization and the Nobodies use it or adopt it? There must be a connection. And it seems pretty evident to me. Why is the armor called "No Heart"? What if it's more than just a "peak preview"? I mean they could've just given us Final Fantasy bosses and we wouldn't be here speculating lol. Furthermore, Eraqus's armor would pretty much behave like Terra's Lingering Will (the mind), providing a hint that Master Eraqus can be saved as well. I am not saying that those encounters (Eraqus's armor and No Heart) are "canon", I'm just saying they may point to something more, rather than just a simulation. Julius is not comparable, he's a Disney character and has way less relevance than the ones we are mentioning.

What you state isn't deniable. The Guardian's never been addressed as a Heartless. But man, it pretty much has the characteristics of a Pureblood. Not knowing more information is killing me damn.

 

[DarkosOverlord]

For funzies: another (eheheh) anagram for the whole No Heart thing is "A Throne". When you face No Heart you're in Land of Departure's main hall, but insted of the three thrones there is... a throne.

To add to Sephiroth's post: remember kids, Kairi didn't generate Naminé back at the Islands because her heart flew into Sora's. I'd say this defeats Xehanort having spawned more Heartlesses and Nobodies until stated/retconned otherwise. Also I keep thinking Xemnas and Ansem are Xehanort's proper spawns rather than Terra's.

This is interesting since parts of this speculation are similar to my own personal theory that I developed with my own group.
It's a pretty big one and No Heart is only a fraction of it, but we also believe (well, more like hope in my case) that No Heart has more to it and he's connected to Guardian and No Name.
Granted in our case No Heart isn't a Nobody, merely someone else wielding the armor (not a Xehanort); I hypotesized the No Heart symbol became the Nobodies symbol only in a second moment, when Xemnas took it, kinda like how Ansem crafted his own emblem from the symbol of Darkness and added the Recusant's Sigil on it.
We know Xemnas has powers over the other Nobodies and could turn Axel into a Dusk, so it could be possible he literally shaped the lesser Nobodies to have that symbol.

Adding to this is the fact that to this day official sources (Diary and Ultimania) still insist that whoever's behind the No Heart in BbS is a mystery, whereas with Eraqus' Armor they state pretty clearly it's just... Eraqus' armor. The secrecy behind No Heart always fascinated me, and I really hope there's more to it.
I'm well aware the majority of the fandom simply accepted No Heart as Xehanort's armor and that's fine, to each their own. Just thought I'd bring part of my own theory up since it fits the thread.

 

[des97]

For funzies: another (eheheh) anagram for the whole No Heart thing is "A Throne". When you face No Heart you're in Land of Departure's main hall, but insted of the three thrones there is... a throne.

To add to Sephiroth's post: remember kids, Kairi didn't generate Naminé back at the Islands because her heart flew into Sora's. I'd say this defeats Xehanort having spawned more Heartlesses and Nobodies until stated/retconned otherwise. Also I keep thinking Xemnas and Ansem are Xehanort's proper spawns rather than Terra's.

This is interesting since parts of this speculation are similar to my own personal theory that I developed with my own group.
It's a pretty big one and No Heart is only a fraction of it, but we also believe (well, more like hope in my case) that No Heart has more to it and he's connected to Guardian and No Name.
Granted in our case No Heart isn't a Nobody, merely someone else wielding the armor (not a Xehanort); I hypotesized the No Heart symbol became the Nobodies symbol only in a second moment, when Xemnas took it, kinda like how Ansem crafted his own emblem from the symbol of Darkness and added the Recusant's Sigil on it.
We know Xemnas has powers over the other Nobodies and could turn Axel into a Dusk, so it could be possible he literally shaped the lesser Nobodies to have that symbol.

Adding to this is the fact that to this day official sources (Diary and Ultimania) still insist that whoever's behind the No Heart in BbS is a mystery, whereas with Eraqus' Armor they state pretty clearly it's just... Eraqus' armor. The secrecy behind No Heart always fascinated me, and I really hope there's more to it.
I'm well aware the majority of the fandom simply accepted No Heart as Xehanort's armor and that's fine, to each their own. Just thought I'd bring part of my own theory up since it fits the thread.

Man another anagram, Nomura is such a genius. Anyway, I'll keep on saying that "No Heart" points to a Nobody or something like that, otherwise I wouldn't know seriously. I also believe Eraqus's armor could probably be his lingering will. I just don't accept simple explanations because KH isn't really familiar with those.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

His destiny, one's destiny. Makes no difference, as everybody but Sora seems to be having a prewritten role (Rebirth theory reference).

I dunno, that symbol is a representation of a category. The same applies for the other emblems that appear in the franchise. Even though it simply was an emblem present in MX's armor, a meaningless motif, why would the Organization and the Nobodies use it or adopt it? There must be a connection. And it seems pretty evident to me. Why is the armor called "No Heart"? What if it's more than just a "peak preview"? I mean they could've just given us Final Fantasy bosses and we wouldn't be here speculating lol. Furthermore, Eraqus's armor would pretty much behave like Terra's Lingering Will (the mind), providing a hint that Master Eraqus can be saved as well. I am not saying that those encounters (Eraqus's armor and No Heart) are "canon", I'm just saying they may point to something more, rather than just a simulation. Julius is not comparable, he's a Disney character and has way less relevance than the ones we are mentioning.

What you state isn't deniable. The Guardian's never been addressed as a Heartless. But man, it pretty much has the characteristics of a Pureblood. Not knowing more information is killing me damn.

The Rebirth Theory is also just that, a theory and thus ultimately speculation. Just because Xehanort or some other characters claims there is no escaping preordained destiny doesn't mean it has to be true.

No one has insinuated that this symbol is a "meaningless" motif. On the contrary, it may have great significance, but not necessarily as the identification symbol of the Nobodies. It being used to give the category of "Nobodies" a sigil does not mean that this is its original meaning.
The swastika also wasn't originally a Nazi symbol despite it being used as such and gaining notorious "fame" for its use. Very many people associate that symbol with the Nazis before the original meaning (if they even know about it that is).
As Nomura also once said about the "X" itself, Xehanort is obsessed with the X-blade, the Keyblade War and everything surrounding it and Xemnas subconsciously inherited some of these obsessions.
It were also not "the Organisation" or "the Nobodies" who decided to adopt the symbol and use it. It was Xemnas alone who decided to use it and since he was confirmed to be the strongest Nobody all others had to submit to his decision.
Another hint at it not being solely a Nobody thing is also that it continues to be used by the new Organisation (the throne room didn't change at all in DDD) where not all of its new members are Nobodies.
The symbol's heraldry itself may also be a hint to it indeed having a deeper meaning as you theorize, just not in specifically in relation to the Nobodies.

Many people have noticed that the "Nobody-Symbol" looks like an upside-down variant of Master Eraqus' symbol which the BBS Trio also carries:

Undoubtedly there is a certain truth to that, but there's another parallel symbol that may apply:

Spoiler Show

Remove the two wings and the detached two smaller spikes of the cover symbol of the BoP and you get an inverted "Nobody"-symbol.

Furthemore though, the "Nobody" symbol explicitly includes a heart, but a damaged/fractured one upside down with spikes/parts being distributed from it. The spikes take the top and thus dominant place while the heart is damaged and subdued, mirroring somewhat exactly what Xehanort is doing with other hearts throughout the entire series, including his own since he has no qualms about using his own heart as just a tool to pursue his ambitions, splitting it apart multiple times among other things.

The BoP symbol on the other hand has a complete, undamaged heart in the top position meaning it is the dominant force there. The spikes also do not look like parts of the heart being send away but more like a stylized system of roots supporting the heart (maybe they also symbolize connection spikes which possibly can connect with the spikes of other hearts).

These are all just graphical comparisons and speculation on a possible deeper meaning, but I think it shows pretty good that it doesn't necessarily have to be Nobody-related, or more detailed, related to a specific other Xehanort-Nobody.

For funzies: another (eheheh) anagram for the whole No Heart thing is "A Throne". When you face No Heart you're in Land of Departure's main hall, but insted of the three thrones there is... a throne.

To add to Sephiroth's post: remember kids, Kairi didn't generate Naminé back at the Islands because her heart flew into Sora's. I'd say this defeats Xehanort having spawned more Heartlesses and Nobodies until stated/retconned otherwise. Also I keep thinking Xemnas and Ansem are Xehanort's proper spawns rather than Terra's.

This is interesting since parts of this speculation are similar to my own personal theory that I developed with my own group.
It's a pretty big one and No Heart is only a fraction of it, but we also believe (well, more like hope in my case) that No Heart has more to it and he's connected to Guardian and No Name.
Granted in our case No Heart isn't a Nobody, merely someone else wielding the armor (not a Xehanort); I hypotesized the No Heart symbol became the Nobodies symbol only in a second moment, when Xemnas took it, kinda like how Ansem crafted his own emblem from the symbol of Darkness and added the Recusant's Sigil on it.
We know Xemnas has powers over the other Nobodies and could turn Axel into a Dusk, so it could be possible he literally shaped the lesser Nobodies to have that symbol.

Adding to this is the fact that to this day official sources (Diary and Ultimania) still insist that whoever's behind the No Heart in BbS is a mystery, whereas with Eraqus' Armor they state pretty clearly it's just... Eraqus' armor. The secrecy behind No Heart always fascinated me, and I really hope there's more to it.
I'm well aware the majority of the fandom simply accepted No Heart as Xehanort's armor and that's fine, to each their own. Just thought I'd bring part of my own theory up since it fits the thread.

You can also make "No Earth" out of it in reference to both Xehanort essentially stealing Terra's existence and his plan to bring about the next Apocalypse.

Indeed, a very good and fitting addition Darkos. Both Xehanort and Kairi are special cases, but the general observation that "heart changing location/leaving body" => no Nobody creation stand and reinforce what has been stated otherwise concerning the creation of a Nobody.
Xemnas and Ansem SoD are strictly spoken spawns of Terra-Xehanort but since the hearts involved were literally fused together (Terra in 0.2 even explicitly says Xehanort's now a part of him) they count for all of them.
Xehanort had the most influence so them were obviously more Xehanort-esque in general.

I'm also pretty on board with there being a big chance of being more to it, just not exactly in the way Des97 proposes it.
It's certainly well thought out, but would in my view acquire a bit too much bending around established procedures.
It is certainly not impossible as there are also lots of unknown factors in play, yet with the current knowledge I deem this particular variant as less likely.

Man another anagram, Nomura is such a genius. Anyway, I'll keep on saying that "No Heart" points to a Nobody or something like that, otherwise I wouldn't know seriously. I also believe Eraqus's armor could probably be his lingering will. I just don't accept simple explanations because KH isn't really familiar with those.

He likes such little games for sure.
Well, just plopping in another Nobody would probably be "simple" in KH terms because it would be a sort of cheap twist entirely with already established elements.
Like I said above, I am in full agreement with the proposal of there being possible more to No heart /the armor and the symbol, just not with this particular variant of it because it would contradict the so far established rules of how a Nobody is created.

 

[des97]

The Rebirth Theory is also just that, a theory and thus ultimately speculation. Just because Xehanort or some other characters claims there is no escaping preordained destiny doesn't mean it has to be true.

No one has insinuated that this symbol is a "meaningless" motif. On the contrary, it may have great significance, but not necessarily as the identification symbol of the Nobodies. It being used to give the category of "Nobodies" a sigil does not mean that this is its original meaning.
The swastika also wasn't originally a Nazi symbol despite it being used as such and gaining notorious "fame" for its use. Very many people associate that symbol with the Nazis before the original meaning (if they even know about it that is).
As Nomura also once said about the "X" itself, Xehanort is obsessed with the X-blade, the Keyblade War and everything surrounding it and Xemnas subconsciously inherited some of these obsessions.
It were also not "the Organisation" or "the Nobodies" who decided to adopt the symbol and use it. It was Xemnas alone who decided to use it and since he was confirmed to be the strongest Nobody all others had to submit to his decision.
Another hint at it not being solely a Nobody thing is also that it continues to be used by the new Organisation (the throne room didn't change at all in DDD) where not all of its new members are Nobodies.
The symbol's heraldry itself may also be a hint to it indeed having a deeper meaning as you theorize, just not in specifically in relation to the Nobodies.

Many people have noticed that the "Nobody-Symbol" looks like an upside-down variant of Master Eraqus' symbol which the BBS Trio also carries:

Undoubtedly there is a certain truth to that, but there's another parallel symbol that may apply:

Spoiler Show

Remove the two wings and the detached two smaller spikes of the cover symbol of the BoP and you get an inverted "Nobody"-symbol.

Furthemore though, the "Nobody" symbol explicitly includes a heart, but a damaged/fractured one upside down with spikes/parts being distributed from it. The spikes take the top and thus dominant place while the heart is damaged and subdued, mirroring somewhat exactly what Xehanort is doing with other hearts throughout the entire series, including his own since he has no qualms about using his own heart as just a tool to pursue his ambitions, splitting it apart multiple times among other things.

The BoP symbol on the other hand has a complete, undamaged heart in the top position meaning it is the dominant force there. The spikes also do not look like parts of the heart being send away but more like a stylized system of roots supporting the heart (maybe they also symbolize connection spikes which possibly can connect with the spikes of other hearts).

These are all just graphical comparisons and speculation on a possible deeper meaning, but I think it shows pretty good that it doesn't necessarily have to be Nobody-related, or more detailed, related to a specific other Xehanort-Nobody.



You can also make "No Earth" out of it in reference to both Xehanort essentially stealing Terra's existence and his plan to bring about the next Apocalypse.

Indeed, a very good and fitting addition Darkos. Both Xehanort and Kairi are special cases, but the general observation that "heart changing location/leaving body" => no Nobody creation stand and reinforce what has been stated otherwise concerning the creation of a Nobody.
Xemnas and Ansem SoD are strictly spoken spawns of Terra-Xehanort but since the hearts involved were literally fused together (Terra in 0.2 even explicitly says Xehanort's now a part of him) they count for all of them.
Xehanort had the most influence so them were obviously more Xehanort-esque in general.

I'm also pretty on board with there being a big chance of being more to it, just not exactly in the way Des97 proposes it.
It's certainly well thought out, but would in my view acquire a bit too much bending around established procedures.
It is certainly not impossible as there are also lots of unknown factors in play, yet with the current knowledge I deem this particular variant as less likely.



He likes such little games for sure.
Well, just plopping in another Nobody would probably be "simple" in KH terms because it would be a sort of cheap twist entirely with already established elements.
Like I said above, I am in full agreement with the proposal of there being possible more to No heart /the armor and the symbol, just not with this particular variant of it because it would contradict the so far established rules of how a Nobody is created.

But doesn't the Book of Prophecies actually forecast the future? The Book predicted a Keyblade War. It was destined to happen, and it did actually happen. Perhaps it's fated to take place once more. Albeit arousing confusion (what doesn't in Kingdom Hearts?), we can't ignore the fact that the Book of Prophecies took destiny to a whole new level in Kingdom Hearts. I'm pretty confident to say it's changed our perspective regarding the entire series. So yeah, I'm not merely listening to an "old coot" as you may have misunderstood, rather I'm simply accepting the fact that we may indeed start digging a little deeper.

As for the Nobody symbol, you made me ponder less superficially. I asked myself: "Why would Xemnas apply this motif to represent the Nobodies in the first place?" Perhaps there's a subtle connection. A primordial meaning. Perhaps No Heart could be the first Nobody ever appeared in Kingdom Hearts, thus the name and the symbo. But as you noticed, the Nobody symbol is still being currently used by the Neo Org. XIII, so this may invalidate my point. Worthy of mentioning is No Name, which lacks a Heart in its texture (Rebirth reference). I can't grasp it though. Needless to say that both the spikes and the heart are recurrent motives.

I have a question for you. How would you justify the rebirth of MX himself, despite him being inside Terra's body? What I actually mean is: If Xemnas and Ansem SoD both died, wouldn't then be more reasonable for Terranort to reappear, instead of the old man? This riddle could be solved if we allowed Xehanort to have 2 Heartless/Nobodies. Both of them died, both of them are reborn. I'm probably just going crazy, I know. You have proven to have a wider cultural baggage than mine as far as Kingdom Hearts is concerned. Out of sheer curiosity, how many times have you played these games?

Spoiler Show

Another anagram of "Another" is "a Hornet". Xehanort is a Hornet confirmed.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

But doesn't the Book of Prophecies actually forecast the future? The Book predicted a Keyblade War. It was destined to happen, and it did actually happen. Perhaps it's fated to take place once more. Albeit arousing confusion (what doesn't in Kingdom Hearts?), we can't ignore the fact that the Book of Prophecies took destiny to a whole new level in Kingdom Hearts. I'm pretty confident to say it's changed our perspective regarding the entire series. So yeah, I'm not merely listening to an "old coot" as you may have misunderstood, rather I'm simply accepting the fact that we may indeed start digging a little deeper.

On first glance it does, but that doesn't mean that it is infallible nor that it is actually some higher "destiny" pulling the strings.
When one looks at Back Cover and the totally inept way the Foretellers handle the situation it can also be inferred that these things come to pass mainly due to a whole string of bad/unfortunate decisions from individual people forming that future.
Furthermore, if one is stupid enough to believe everything that is written there it is not rocket science that of course everything will happen as it stands in there, and there are some hints and implications that the MoM somehow set things up in order to have things happen as he "saw" them with his future-seeing eye.

This is also emphatized by Luxu stating in slight confusion that he "hasn't done anything yet".
If for example instead of simply following his "task" and doing as the MoM says Luxu would place the No Name Keyblade into a rock like Excalibur and ensure this "eye" never sees anything worthwhile nothing the BoP states would ever come to pass in the exact way the MoM wrote it down.
Thing is though that all parts of the X[chi]-era are essentially a giant flashback so the decisions that made the events written in the book come to pass are already made. They're inevitable not because of "destiny", but because they were already made.

Furthermore, the eye of the Master can really only see what it is allowed to see, aka what the No Name Keyblade is allowed to witness in its sight area.
Again in Back Cover Ira does speak about events occuring that are not in the book, meaning that the BoP is neither omniscient nor covers it every possible path available.

It is rather complicated indeed, but I'd warn to simply take everything in and about that cursed book as a given and set in stone, as that may exactly the reason why it happens in the first place.

As for the Nobody symbol, you made me ponder less superficially. I asked myself: "Why would Xemnas apply this motif to represent the Nobodies in the first place?" Perhaps there's a subtle connection. A primordial meaning. Perhaps No Heart could be the first Nobody ever appeared in Kingdom Hearts, thus the name and the symbo. But as you noticed, the Nobody symbol is still being currently used by the Neo Org. XIII, so this may invalidate my point. Worthy of mentioning is No Name, which lacks a Heart in its texture (Rebirth reference). I can't grasp it though. Needless to say that both the spikes and the heart are recurrent motives.

If a previous meaning of this symbol exists and depending on what it was, Xemnas (or Xehanort) may have choosen it simply because of its thematic meaning that may apply to the Nobodies in some form. I try to be open minded about this and divorcing the meaning from being strictly tied to and about the Nobodies, but instead for the underlying bigger meaning Xehanort created and maintained the Nobodies in the first place.
In the big picture the Nobodies as a "race" or "species" aren't even that important as just like the other mooks/grunts/monsters of the day they're a means to an end for Xehanort to pursue his ambitions.
There's also a telling piece of propaganda-speech Xemnas does in Days that may be an allusion:

The strength of the human heart is vast. Soon, though...we will have
gained power over it! Never again will it...have power over us.

Going by this and the revelations made in DDD it may be that this symbol is more about subduing and controlling hearts (hence its upside down position below the thorns) in its original meaning.

I have a question for you. How would you justify the rebirth of MX himself, despite him being inside Terra's body? What I actually mean is: If Xemnas and Ansem SoD both died, wouldn't then be more reasonable for Terranort to reappear, instead of the old man? This riddle could be solved if we allowed Xehanort to have 2 Heartless/Nobodies. Both of them died, both of them are reborn. I'm probably just going crazy, I know. You have proven to have a wider cultural baggage than mine as far as Kingdom Hearts is concerned. Out of sheer curiosity, how many times have you played these games?

The justification for this isn't exactly delivered on a silver platter in the games themselves, although Yen Sid does speak about explicitly Master Xehanort returning (and an image of him is shown) in the first secret ending of Re: Coded, "Signs of what's next".

The explanation lies in the restoration process itself, as this process explicitly restores the original person. Meaning the heart freed from the Heartless is reunited/recompleted with its original body+soul, the parts it belongs with.
Terra-Xehanort was a forced conglomerate of several hearts in one body+soul, but that body+soul undeniably belongs to Terra and Xehanort is just forcibly there in violation of natural order.
Ansem SoD and Xemnas are also products of that forced conglomerate, but once both are destroyed the restoration process will put all free parts back together as they are supposed to be (if Xehanort left another seed with Terra's heart which allows him to use him as a seeker in the new Org is another pot of worms) and not how Xehanort forced things to be.
Xehanort may want to be one but he isn't a god yet who can violate any and all natural rules that there are.

Now, this explanation is not provided by the games themselves as Re: Coded only mentions the process existing without addressing it any further.

The actual more in-depth explanation is from March 2007 and was included in the "Director's Secret Report XIII", a book included with KH 2 Final Mix and as so often only in Japan.
There, Nomura already outlined this process before any of the Handheld-trinity games was even out:

VIII. When you defeat Heartless, what happens to the hearts they have stolen? Also, when Nobodies and members of Organisation XIII are defeated, do they return to their original forms?



When a Heartless is defeated, essentially, the owner of that heart returns to life somewhere in the Realm with the body that had once disappeared. Some facts about where hearts go were also established in KHII, but those were exceptional circumstances brought about by the Organisation³. However, there is the rare case in which a body changes into a Nobody. If that has happened, without the vessel it ought to return to the heart will go into a suspended state.
When a Nobody is defeated, it's a little complicated. If the heart has been released they will return to their original form as mentioned above, but if the heart is still dispossessed by a Heartless, the Nobody will be swallowed by darkness. If their heart, wherever it is in the realm, could be taken back perhaps they could return to their original human form.

There are essentially three main cases included.
Number one and the most common is that there is just a Heartless, with the body just disappearing. If that Heartless is now defeated and the darkened heart purified by a Keyblade, the original person is simply restored with the once disappeared original body+soul it belongs to.
Then there is the rare case when the body gets turned into a Nobody, with the remaining two cases for restoration focusing on the order in which Heartless and Nobody are defeated.

If the Heartless is defeated first and the heart purified, but the body+soul being occupied by a Nobody, the heart goes into suspended animation "somewhere".
If the Nobody is defeated first, it is practically the same as case one with the body disappearing/"swallowed" by darkness and if then the heart is taken back the restoration process is done as usual.

Now with Xehanort, as Lea also points out in DDD, we have a "special" case there.
Xehanort willingly threw his own body away (when he possessed Terra in BBS) and as such it disappeared, but there was no Heartless created as Xehanort's heart simply latched onto Terra's body, it didn't succumb to Darkness.
Then later the conglomerate-being that was Terra-Xehanort (according to the KH 1 reports and statements made in CoM) became willingly a Heartless and Nobody, thus in consequence submitting all parts of it to the restoration process if it should ever become applicable.
Thus when Ansem SoD and Xemnas are defeated, all parts of them are reunited with the other parts they belong to. The restoration process is not going to recreate a conglomerate-being that is not supposed to exist this way in the first place.

There is much "extra" lore baggage one can collect together from this supplementary material which can help to make even more sense of things.
In case you're interested, the whole Director's Secret Report XIII has been translated from japanese by our very own goldpanner and is available HERE.

The games themselves I've played three four times at most, what I did do is keeping a whole folder of bookmarks and reference documents with the actual game scripts (mostly from gamefaqs, like THIS for KH 1) and links to important Famitsu- and Ultimania-interviews with Nomura (like THIS) in order to quickly search for important info and clear up possible misconceptions.
KHInsider has on its main site an interview section for each game where additional info can be looked into if one wants to.

 

[Smithee]

Also, why is it "Convoluted theory"?

By this franchise's standards, it's just "theory."

 

[Grono]

Interesting, but implausible. I really don't like the idea of Xehanort being yet another pawn, undermines what I believe to be the best villain in the series.