I really want to believe your post and thoughts about this character are written with sincerity and good faith, but its extremely difficult when you are directly insulting my point of view and responding as if I'm antagonizing you.
Again, my aim is not to insult your point of view, it's to discredit it. Because I think it's wrong. But just to be clear, you initiated this dialogue by making the claim that the feelings that many fans have with regards to Kairi's development and characterization are misplaced, and by implication that the criticism surrounding her role in the games is less than legitimate. Your language, not mine.
And, to be clear, I take no issue with that, nor do I feel antagonized by it. You're totally entitled to put forth that claim if it aligns with your perspective on the series, but nobody else is obligated to hold space for it, or to behave deferentially when daring to detract from it. It's up to you to back it up.
1) I want you to explain what you actually want from her character. You said you want her to have agency and voice, the theoretical I provided was only to show you that those two things are not specific enough. Whatever it is you want out of Kairi, you need to be more specific and explain it to me or there is no point in having this conversation.
I didn't say I want her to have agency and voice, I asserted that those are the building blocks of strong character writing as opposed to your proposition that it is sufficient for Kairi to play the supportive archetype insofar as that still leaves room for strong characterization. It doesn't. It hasn't for the entirety of the series, and I've been highly specific in providing concrete reasoning detailing why there is such a strong collective recognition of that fact. To reiterate: what I personally want for Kairi as a character is not relevant to proving the case that the criticisms of her writing are valid, and that is as far as my burden extends.
To make it as clear as I can: the question is not one of how Kairi should be written, it's one of how she
is written.
2)You can critique her "passivity" and "lack of a propulsive part in the story's action" all you want. If that is what you really want out of Kairi you should have said that rather critique her "voice" and "lack of agency".
These are exactly the same thing, so thanks for proving my point.
And to this I say: Congratulations! Because like I've already said twice to you already, Kairi is in the perfect position after the events of KH3 to directly get involved more in the action of the story.
Apologists for her writing (of which I used to be one, of a sort...I guess to some extent I still am) have been saying this for a decade or more now. With each and every installment post-KH2 finding new ways to depreciate her centrality to the unfolding narrative, there has always come a fresh wave of assurances that Nomura must have
something big planned for her, that she is optimally positioned to realize her dramatic moment, and all that communal consolation culminated in a game in which she is subjected to her worst treatment thus far. In the first place, it's no longer a reasonable belief to hold that Nomura will suddenly figure out how to retrofit Kairi's arc with any degree of meaning or import, but even if we were to permit him the benefit of the doubt (yet again), it's untenable as a solution to the criticism surrounding her portrayal. It's not possible to undo the damage that KH3 has done to her development, not because there aren't plenty of people who would rush to forgive the error at the first glimpse of even the slightest nod to her narrative value, but because the error itself is an unerasable and permanent fixture of her characterization through the most dramatically dense stretch of storytelling KH as a franchise will likely ever be party to. The series peaked, and Kairi didn't peak with it. Though I guess you could just as well make the argument that they cratered together.
I'm really happy for you, but Kairi's "passivity" thus far was merely an aspect of her characterization. To insult her for that, as if passivity inherently makes a character bad, is absurd.
Her passivity is not a quality of her character, it's a product of her forced positioning within the plot relative to
other characters. It's the same lazy writing that afflicts Aqua throughout KH3, but for Kairi it's writ large throughout the series.
I don't know what you think circular logic is but you're wrong. Me saying Kairi's limited role in the story is a by product of her "fate" is not circular logic, it is reality. That is the way her character has been written so far.
And, full stop, that is the legitimizing factor in the critiques surrounding her.
I didn't say her character needed to be written that because she is a supporting character, and I didn't say supporting characters can not have hugely defining experiences, what I said was that supporting characters do not need the same kind of major transformative experiences as the main character in the typical "hero's journey" . There is a significant distinction you missed there.
No, there isn't, your own clarification here issues a distinction without a difference. If you can't decisively argue that Kairi's role needs to be limited by definition, then you can't effectively support your claim that the critiques directed towards her are illegitimate.
Me saying "Kairi was fated to play this role" does not mean her role can not change in the future or that her character is incapable of growth, it means that the events and the efforts she had put into her life culminated in that being her role for that moment of time. And at the same time, YES Kairi has played a significant part in the story despite her being a supporting character (are you suggesting supporting characters can not play huge roles..?) There is no contradiction here. One day she is playing a minor supporting role, the next a major one, the next day perhaps she'll be the main character - who's to say?
By definition, supporting characters do not play huge roles. They play supporting roles. As you accurately suggest, if the role they play increases in scope, their category of characterization likewise changes. The mental gymnastics you're asserting here to avoid admitting that Kairi's apparent role is
not consistent with her intended one nevertheless exemplifies and underscores that point. Kairi is whatever Nomura contrives her to be according to the demands of the plot: she is the third wheel on the lead trio, but her participation is routinely driven by plot action, and she is virtually never positioned to drive the action. This is despite the fact that, as a character with the level of inherent significance she contains, she has every natural reason to be driving action; her potential is left unmined for no good reason.
Yes, I understand this perfectly based on your highly emotional and inflammatory posts towards me. The problem is your highly opinionated ideas of "where she ought to be" are not necessarily what is best for her character or best for the story.
And yet it was your contention just a few paragraphs ago that I
must tell you
exactly what I want for Kairi, or this conversation is
pointless.
And, again, I find myself content to allow you to contradict yourself as surely as it suits you to tie yourself in knots directing hyperbolic accusations at me instead of addressing the substance of the discourse at hand.
They are merely your opinions and (compared to Nomura's) objectively lacking in scope. Imo, at this point the best argument in the defense of her character is how passionate some of the fans are in where they want her character to go. If she was really as bland as you say I'd think you wouldn't put forth so much effort in trying to "fix" her.
I can see how, given the pattern of logic you've applied up to this point, you could eventually arrive at this conclusion.
It's not, it's just a quote I liked and personally felt reflects the culture quite well based on other sources I've read.
Since you've permitted me to hazard a guess: you also feel very strongly about the tradition of Japanese narration reflected by such culturally astute entries in the common lexicon as Shōgun and Memoirs of a Geisha.
And you've obviously never seen the movie I guess because the role Tom Cruise plays is a white man within the context of a historically accurate setting.
It was filmed in New Zealand and Burbank, but, sure.
Wikipedia said:
The historical roles of the
British Empire, the
Netherlands and
France in Japanese
westernization are largely attributed to the United States in the film, for American audiences.
They were really straining for historical accuracy.
I would highly suggest you (or anyone else reading this) read up on Japan's encounter with the West in the 1850's - present day and how the Samurai and Bushido have influenced modern Japanese culture. It has been a very enlightening subject for me.
Not to disavow the notion that these traditions have had a credible impact on modern Japanese society (but then I don't fashion myself an expert in this arena), but I do think it's telling that your first point of reference in supplementation of the passive literary archetype you ascribe monolithically to eastern ("not western"?) worldviews is a reinterpretation of these historical modes of thinking by western writers, producers, and performers. Add to that the choice of buttressing your argument on a specific period of philosophy in which the social dynamics between men and women in Japan were pretty clear-cut and it's not hard to discern the style of "supportive archetype" on which you're seeking to rest your case.
They should, those are perfectly dignified roles.
Whoops, there it goes.
They should also aspire and work hard to whatever they want to achieve in their lives.
Yes. Secondarily.
This is the crux of the difference between Japanese and Western thought and why I'm actively trying to move there. Everyone in the west feels they are kings and queens who are so far above real work that they can't manage to take pride in their own jobs. Believing that everything below your ideal is beneath you is a tortured existence, there is plenty of honor and dignity to be found in living a quiet "passive" life.
I don't even disagree with you here, but I'm not convinced that your reading on Kairi relative to any of this is especially well-informed.