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Kingdom Hearts III Ending Theory



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kuraudoVII

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Yeah, that WAS the ending of FF1, albeit, the heores themselves remembered who they were...

Would it be so bad if the reset button was pushed, as long as they provided for the continuing friendships of the characters we've grown to love?

The universe could return to normal, but with them as an organization of protectors, once again traveling from world to world more or less incognito (because Sora, Donald and Goofy always blended right in).

Admittedly, that would be a better way to hit the reset button for the game. My biggest problem in regards to the reset button in other games is that they tend to make everyone forget everything, even the friendships formed. As long as the characters remembered who the others that they met and vice-versa, I guess it wouldn't be too bad if the reset button were pushed like it was at the end of Kingdom Hearts I.
 

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Not saying Ventus is a version of Sora, I misquoted myself. I meant to say that they share a heart. Is anything said in DDD about someone who shares a heart? It could work the same way, and either way Sora has his young self at Destiny Island anyway. What if Sora's destiny is to ultimately defeat Xehanort and Xehanort couldn't change history because it would have interfered with Sora's destiny, but since Sora's destiny is to defeat him he's able to go back in time and alter this?

I'm afraid that won't work either. The rule is universal; history has been written and what has been recorded may not be changed. It applies to Xehanort, to Sora, and to any other time travellers out there.

The KHverse consists of just one single timeline that does not, and will not, branch. Now let's assume, arguendo, that Sora is able to travel back to a point of time during BbS and defeat Master Xehanort for good. That would mean that everything that happened post-BbS as we know becomes moot; one of the consequences among other, equally significant, ones is that Kairi will not have been sent to Destiny Islands and Sora and Riku, among others, wouldn't have gotten to know her. There would be even more undone events if Sora somehow defeats MX between the time of his (Sora's) birth and BbS.

And the way the universe prevents this from happening is not by erasing Sora's and Riku's current memories of Kairi or zapping her back to Radiant Garden, but by making sure that past events leading to this outcome do not happen. Therefore, if Sora does go back in time to slay MX, something will happen to ensure that MX somehow stays alive to carry out his plans. Be it Sora running out of time, getting stung by a bee on his butt before dealing the final blow thus enabling MX to escape, or that the blow turns out to be non-fatal, something will happen.
 

Gram

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Lea said:
Didn't know that, I have to brush up on my Disney classics. Also, how did Timeless River work? Didn't that involve time travel? Time travel is a pain.
Yes it did, actually we've seen several types of time travel.

1. Xehanorts method, requires discarding of the body, can't travel outside your own lifetime, forget anything learned of the future.

2. The method used by Yensid to send Sora and Riku back to DI with they're entire body. Despite bypassing the ditching of the body somehow it still follows the law that you need to have a version of yourself there.

3. The doors of kh2. Though it obviously sent Sora to a time outside his lifetime it too proved to unable to alter history.
Maleficent tried but it only caused heartless to appear in the castle, if she had truly altered it history would've rewritten instantly leaving Sora no one time to find merlin to summon the second door so he can go back and stop pete.

4. Merlin mentions he is a time travler in kh1 when you first meet him and his movie counterpart is shown to be one.

You see paradoxes in kh as well in the form of YX, Ansem and Xemnas. They've been pulled out of their timeline to the present but this is only temporary, they eventually go back to the past and forget everything ensuring time stays secure.

Even time magic like stop can be seen as warping time but it's effects are very short lived.

There are basically many forms of traveling or messing with time but nothing done is ever permanent.

Not saying Ventus is a version of Sora, I misquoted myself. I meant to say that they share a heart. Is anything said in DDD about someone who shares a heart? It could work the same way, and either way Sora has his young self at Destiny Island anyway. What if Sora's destiny is to ultimately defeat Xehanort and Xehanort couldn't change history because it would have interfered with Sora's destiny, but since Sora's destiny is to defeat him he's able to go back in time and alter this?

They don't share a heart but have two that is connected. Ven's heart resides in Sora's currently but isn't a part of it.

As solosis said still wouldn't work, time is "immovable" it can't be altered in any sense. If you could alter time in any way Xehanort would've done did so.

There's just no way to alter it, what's meant to happen will, if it could be changed both Xehanort and Maleficent had chances but nothings altered.
As confusing and convoluted time travel is nomura at least had the foresight to keep one simple rule, that it can't be altered.

When it comes to the complexity that is time travel it's best to just remember that rule and not delve to deeply into it because it'll only cause headaches.

KH basically follows a simpler form of the Novikov self-consistency principle
It is one timeline that is self-contained and unalterable.

Tinny said:
(I don't think time travel is going to be used as much as it was 3D, or at least not as prevalently)
I dont think it will either. So far time travel seems to largely just be Nomura's excuse to bring back Ansem and Xemnas (and to fill in his 13 seats bit with YX) for the big finale of the seeker saga.
 
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FudgemintGuardian

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I dont think it will either. So far time travel seems to largely just be Nomura's excuse to bring back Ansem and Xemnas (and to fill in his 13 seats bit with YX) for the big finale of the seeker saga.
I don't think time travel will be used much either. At most, just to explain why certain characters are around and that'll probably be it.

Come to think of it, couldn't Nomura have just had Ansem and Xemnas Hearts shoved into Replica bodies or something?
 

Gram

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Come to think of it, couldn't Nomura have just had Ansem and Xemnas Hearts shoved into Replica bodies or something?
Yes and no, he couldn't put the actual Xemnas and Ansem in such bodies because the components they consist of (Terra/MX's heart and Terra's body+soul) were freed and resulted in Xehanorts revival in DDD.

However he could've made replicas of them I suppose, they just wouldn't be the original versions since those have returned to the whole.
 

Sephiroth0812

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Yes and no, he couldn't put the actual Xemnas and Ansem in such bodies because the components they consist of (Terra/MX's heart and Terra's body+soul) were freed and resulted in Xehanorts revival in DDD.

However he could've made replicas of them I suppose, they just wouldn't be the original versions since those have returned to the whole.

If Xemnas and Ansem grew their own hearts he could very well have done that as since "everything can grow a heart", any hearts grown that would contain the "own individual essence" of Xemnas and Ansem (remember Nomura pointed out that they have their own, separate minds!) would not be part of the puzzle that is needed to revive Xehanort.
Not to mention that Xehanort scrapes off parts of his heart all the time and puts it in several different bodies like Voldemort did with his Horcruxes, so it remains to be seen what being "whole" even means for Xehanort himself.

With Sora, it was only required for Roxas to fuse with him because he held memories of Sora that were scattered due to Naminé's tinkering in CoM, his own heart had nothing to do with it.
 

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If Xemnas and Ansem grew their own hearts he could very well have done that as since "everything can grow a heart", any hearts grown that would contain the "own individual essence" of Xemnas and Ansem (remember Nomura pointed out that they have their own, separate minds!) would not be part of the puzzle that is needed to revive Xehanort.
Not to mention that Xehanort scrapes off parts of his heart all the time and puts it in several different bodies like Voldemort did with his Horcruxes, so it remains to be seen what being "whole" even means for Xehanort himself.

With Sora, it was only required for Roxas to fuse with him because he held memories of Sora that were scattered due to Naminé's tinkering in CoM, his own heart had nothing to do with it.

He technically said they're the "same person but function under different minds" but your point still stands.
Seeing as how Ansem IS the heart of Terranort I dont think he'd grow one as he already has one though he could've vary well have splintered it off into a replica like how MX splinters his off in vessels.

Xemnas would be much easier since, like Roxas, he'd have an entirely separate heart though norted he could transfer.

No one mentioned Roxas or Sora and I dont find them very relatable to Xehanort, not because it isn't similar though different circumstances, but rather because of how each person was revived.
(Xehanort came back because of re-completion started from his heartless and nobodies defeat while Sora simply re-merged with his nobody)

EDIT: cause slow internet today

Talking about it really makes me wish they had taken the replica route with the new org in DDD. Dx
 
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Antifa Lockhart

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It wouldn't have made sense to go down the replica route because the replica project was a colossal failure. Too unpredictable, and too many variables that could go wrong.
 

Gram

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It wouldn't have made sense to go down the replica route because the replica project was a colossal failure. Too unpredictable, and too many variables that could go wrong.

This was cause the replicas became their own people rather than an actual imitation of who they were made after. They meet the requirements of growing a heart and thus rebelled.

Plus there is how Xehanort operates when taking a body, he imprisons the heart already inside so his influence taking full hold wouldn't be out of the realm of impossibility for an empty shell.
 

Sephiroth0812

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He technically said they're the "same person but function under different minds" but your point still stands.
Seeing as how Ansem IS the heart of Terranort I dont think he'd grow one as he already has one though he could've vary well have splintered it off into a replica like how MX splinters his off in vessels.

Xemnas would be much easier since, like Roxas, he'd have an entirely separate heart though norted he could transfer.

No one mentioned Roxas or Sora and I dont find them very relatable to Xehanort, not because it isn't similar though different circumstances, but rather because of how each person was revived.
(Xehanort came back because of re-completion started from his heartless and nobodies defeat while Sora simply re-merged with his nobody)

EDIT: cause slow internet today

Talking about it really makes me wish they had taken the replica route with the new org in DDD. Dx

Remember though that the "body" was with Xemnas and even after being exposed to the light of his own created KH at the end of KH 1 a part of Ansem still remained in Riku, so even if "Ansem SoD" as an individual didn't "grew" his own heart, Xehanort could just cut off another "seed" from his own heart and place "Ansem" into it. Given enough time (and proper care), that seed would grow into a heart and we would indeed have an "Ansem" as an own individual.

Regarding Ansem SoD ther is actually something else I always wondered though, since he technically had the whole heart-conglomerate that was comprised of MX's, Terra's and Eraqus' hearts jumbled together, it would also stand to reason that he also contained the actual consciousnesses/essences of MX himself, Terra and Eraqus.
Were they all dormant like Ven inside Sora? Or could (and did) Ansem's own consciousness actually confer with MX's, receiving advice and further orders from MX?
Beside that, him having the whole "puzzle" that was Terra-Xehanort's heart would also easily explain why he can summon the Guardian while Xemnas can't.

Xemnas is indeed easier, although a curious case as well since he is/was implied to have memories of the time as Apprentice Xehanort, Terra and Master Xehanort. However, Ansem SoD is also said to retain his (Xehanort's memories) and since he holds the heart-conglomerate, how could Xemnas gain some of the memories too if Ansem didn't lose any?

I only mentioned Roxas and Sora as an example for the fact that any newly grown heart by a technically "new" individual is not a required part to make the original person whole again, as it wasn't originally part of the original in those special cases.
Normal cases might be a different issue due to memories of the original being involved in the forming of the new heart like with Lea/Axel.


It wouldn't have made sense to go down the replica route because the replica project was a colossal failure. Too unpredictable, and too many variables that could go wrong.

Nothing that couldn't be worked out over time as Xemnas and Xigbar already had some clues what exactly was wrong with the Replica's during Days.
However, considering Xemnas' words in Days as well, it seems that Vexen/Even was a highly important part of the Replica project and without him they couldn't refine and improve it much more.

Despite all that though, I personally think that using a refined, improved version of the Replica project together with the "everything can have a heart"-issue would have been a more logical and easier to swallow explanation than all this time-travel crap and it would actually have used assets already present in the series mythology instead of introducing something completely new out of the blue with a completely new ruleset.

This was cause the replicas became their own people rather than an actual imitation of who they were made after. They meet the requirements of growing a heart and thus rebelled.

Plus there is how Xehanort operates when taking a body, he imprisons the heart already inside so his influence taking full hold wouldn't be out of the realm of impossibility for an empty shell.

That's what I think as well, although there seems to be something about the "shells", as I pointed out above, that Vexen/Even was crucial for.
 

Gram

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Remember though that the "body" was with Xemnas and even after being exposed to the light of his own created KH at the end of KH 1 a part of Ansem still remained in Riku, so even if "Ansem SoD" as an individual didn't "grew" his own heart, Xehanort could just cut off another "seed" from his own heart and place "Ansem" into it. Given enough time (and proper care), that seed would grow into a heart and we would indeed have an "Ansem" as an own individual.
Where the body was doesn't take away from my point that it was the return of the "body" and the re-completion of heartless and nobody that lead to Xehanorts return
Though whether that's what your referring to or not I'm not really sure as you bringing up the body confuses me here since I dont know what your pointing out.

Which pretty much exactly bleeds into the part of my post saying an "Ansem" could be made from splintered parts.


Regarding Ansem SoD ther is actually something else I always wondered though, since he technically had the whole heart-conglomerate that was comprised of MX's, Terra's and Eraqus' hearts jumbled together, it would also stand to reason that he also contained the actual consciousnesses/essences of MX himself, Terra and Eraqus.
Were they all dormant like Ven inside Sora? Or could (and did) Ansem's own consciousness actually confer with MX's, receiving advice and further orders from MX?
Beside that, him having the whole "puzzle" that was Terra-Xehanort's heart would also easily explain why he can summon the Guardian while Xemnas can't.
Whether Ansem was his own fully separate mind or not, to me, depends on if he truly lost his memories or not in bbs.
If the memories was lost then naturally a new sense of self would form within the heart to fill the void making "Ansem" just a messed up and convoluted personality in a heart that already had three.

If he didn't forget then he'd be essentially an extension of Terranort who was himself just Terra being controlled by MX.

Though in the end I dont think the exact nature is important as both Xemnad and Ansem obviously operated under MX's influence whether directly or indirectly.

Xemnas is indeed easier, although a curious case as well since he is/was implied to have memories of the time as Apprentice Xehanort, Terra and Master Xehanort. However, Ansem SoD is also said to retain his (Xehanort's memories) and since he holds the heart-conglomerate, how could Xemnas gain some of the memories too if Ansem didn't lose any?
Nomura was once asked how it was all divided but he never gave a clear cut answer so who had what and how each exactly operated as a being will likely always be a mystery to us.

No matter what each held all the memories held in Xemnas as well as the body+soul would've been returned along with whatever Ansem possessed as Xehanort reformed.

Though I do think it may be possible to copy or share memories. Think about it, throughout CoM they made cards shaped from Sora's memory and Xion herself was created by copying said memory. (as Sora didn't truly lose any memory until CoM)
Roxas also seen Sora's memories as dreams in kh2 even though they were also being restored to sora.

So I think it may very well be possible for a memory to be duplicated or even remembered by more than one version of yourself.
Meaning I find it possible that both Ansem and Xemnas remembered things and had the same sets it's just that distinguishing between the three sets they had left them confused at times. (at least in the case of Xemnas)

I only mentioned Roxas and Sora as an example for the fact that any newly grown heart by a technically "new" individual is not a required part to make the original person whole again, as it wasn't originally part of the original in those special cases.
Normal cases might be a different issue due to memories of the original being involved in the forming of the new heart like with Lea/Axel.
The reason I dont count it is due to how Roxas and Sora merged. Rather than destruction Roxas simply returned the body+soul which caused his heart to go with it.
While in the case of Xehanort his two halves were destroyed and the components that made them reassembled into the whole.
Even though Xemnas and Ansem were special they reformed like Lea/Axel who seems to have fully assimilated with his nobody self.

Xehanort also dominates and makes the heart of who's bound to him a part of his own which makes me wonder that perhaps Ansem and Xemnas became a part of Xehanorts.
Sora in contrast only shelters he doesn't forcibly merge.

Of course, at the core, we'll likely never know the full mechanics and all we can really do is throw possibilities around. (which makes debating it all a bit moot)
 

Antifa Lockhart

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Time is something they don't have, not to mention: wouldn't time hurt the progress? If every replica grows their own heart and gets their own sense of self there's no guarantee they'd be good or compatible candidates. Hearts being unpredictable is also a major piece of the mythology of the series.
 

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Time is something they don't have, not to mention: wouldn't time hurt the progress? If every replica grows their own heart and gets their own sense of self there's no guarantee they'd be good or compatible candidates. Hearts being unpredictable is also a major piece of the mythology of the series.

He wouldn't really need time. The other cases were of things that were based on data and over time grew to be their own self.
In Xehanorts case, who has the power to splinter his heart, could just make a replica body, put a part of his heart in and without resistance that his other vessels usually have could take immediate control making a true replica of himself that he controls like all the other vessels containing his heart seeds.
 

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Admittedly, that would be a better way to hit the reset button for the game. My biggest problem in regards to the reset button in other games is that they tend to make everyone forget everything, even the friendships formed. As long as the characters remembered who the others that they met and vice-versa, I guess it wouldn't be too bad if the reset button were pushed like it was at the end of Kingdom Hearts I.

That's exactly what my second to last paragraph was saying lol.
 

Sephiroth0812

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Where the body was doesn't take away from my point that it was the return of the "body" and the re-completion of heartless and nobody that lead to Xehanorts return
Though whether that's what your referring to or not I'm not really sure as you bringing up the body confuses me here since I dont know what your pointing out.

Which pretty much exactly bleeds into the part of my post saying an "Ansem" could be made from splintered parts.
Agh, sorry, I didn't spill out the whole issue. That was actually meant as another proof towards that Ansem couldn't have grown a heart, as Xemnas states in DDD that in order to give birth to a new heart there is at least a vessel needed, and Ansem didn't have one save for the last third of KH 1.
Since I write my reponses in notepad and then copy them over (in case of a possible browser- or forum crash), I might have not copied over everything the first time.

If Xehanort still somehow "has" Ansem's essence and mind (if he has a separate one that is) like i.e. Sora has Xion's and Roxas' (and Kairi Naminé's) this is entirely possible and may even play into account with the Key to return Hearts, as who is to say that it can only be used by the good guys?

Whether Ansem was his own fully separate mind or not, to me, depends on if he truly lost his memories or not in bbs.
If the memories was lost then naturally a new sense of self would form within the heart to fill the void making "Ansem" just a messed up and convoluted personality in a heart that already had three.

If he didn't forget then he'd be essentially an extension of Terranort who was himself just Terra being controlled by MX.

Though in the end I dont think the exact nature is important as both Xemnad and Ansem obviously operated under MX's influence whether directly or indirectly.


Nomura was once asked how it was all divided but he never gave a clear cut answer so who had what and how each exactly operated as a being will likely always be a mystery to us.

No matter what each held all the memories held in Xemnas as well as the body+soul would've been returned along with whatever Ansem possessed as Xehanort reformed.

Though I do think it may be possible to copy or share memories. Think about it, throughout CoM they made cards shaped from Sora's memory and Xion herself was created by copying said memory. (as Sora didn't truly lose any memory until CoM)
Roxas also seen Sora's memories as dreams in kh2 even though they were also being restored to sora.

So I think it may very well be possible for a memory to be duplicated or even remembered by more than one version of yourself.
Meaning I find it possible that both Ansem and Xemnas remembered things and had the same sets it's just that distinguishing between the three sets they had left them confused at times. (at least in the case of Xemnas)
Correct, so in the latter case, if there wasn't really a memory loss, Terra-Xehanort from BBS and and "Ansem" would practically be the same thing/same consciousness only in a different state of being with MX sitting in the MX/Terra/Eraqus-mess of a heart and directing a figurehead/puppet named "Ansem".

It could become important though if the question comes up if Ansem and Xemnas can be treated as own individuals separate from Master/Terra-Xehanort like Roxas and Xion are in regards to Sora, and of course how much (if any) influence Terra and/or Eraqus had.

Yea, and he also stated that it is a mystery that would become a key in later parts of the story, however, it doesn't get much later than KH III since DDD also kept silent on the issue on purpose.

As would their true essences if they have any. So Xehanort would technically have the "true" Ansem and Xemnas sleeping within him while the two seen in DDD are versions taken from the past.

Copying memories is definitely possible, as those were used with the Riku Replica, but they needed Naminé to do something with them.
That Roxas had these dreams in KH 2 was because they were restored to Sora. As Sora regained them, they flowed through Roxas and he experienced them in dreams. That's also the second reason DiZ placed Roxas in that digital Twilight Town as it was connected to Sora.

Which makes the issue even more confusing, especially on the issues of the current status of Terra and Eraqus.

The reason I dont count it is due to how Roxas and Sora merged. Rather than destruction Roxas simply returned the body+soul which caused his heart to go with it.
While in the case of Xehanort his two halves were destroyed and the components that made them reassembled into the whole.
Even though Xemnas and Ansem were special they reformed like Lea/Axel who seems to have fully assimilated with his nobody self.

Xehanort also dominates and makes the heart of who's bound to him a part of his own which makes me wonder that perhaps Ansem and Xemnas became a part of Xehanorts.
Sora in contrast only shelters he doesn't forcibly merge.

Of course, at the core, we'll likely never know the full mechanics and all we can really do is throw possibilities around. (which makes debating it all a bit moot)

Granted, that's a severe difference so that comparison may not work.

IF Ansem and Xemnas are truly individuals of their own and not just puppets directed by Master Xehanort's consciousness, the whereabouts of their "present" essences should indeed be within Xehanort's main heart.
In that case, if Terra and Eraqus are also still there, it would become quite crowded in there just like in Sora, with the huge difference though that Sora's heart is a hospital/hotel while Xehanort's is a prison.

Yea, that's why we probably should go back to the main topic of the thread, that being the proposal of (again) using the reset-button on everything and if it's even possible.

Time is something they don't have, not to mention: wouldn't time hurt the progress? If every replica grows their own heart and gets their own sense of self there's no guarantee they'd be good or compatible candidates. Hearts being unpredictable is also a major piece of the mythology of the series.

Only if the Replica is allowed to roam free and form connections. If Xehanort keeps it/him/her isolated and only exposed to himself or one of his heart seeds, it should be not such a grave problem as with Repliku and Xion.

He wouldn't really need time. The other cases were of things that were based on data and over time grew to be their own self.
In Xehanorts case, who has the power to splinter his heart, could just make a replica body, put a part of his heart in and without resistance that his other vessels usually have could take immediate control making a true replica of himself that he controls like all the other vessels containing his heart seeds.

Exactly, they would have to reconfigure the way to "raise"/activate the Replica in question.
 

NeoshadowXC

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Something like that, definitely! It's hard to say because a lot of Normura's story decisions lately have been questionable at best... but it would still be great if it went something like that :)
 
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