Lust

[_EX]

I think I have some confusion as to what this really entails, in Christian beliefs anyway.

I know lust as desire for sex, but how would that would be avoidable in modern society?
I would consider finding someone attractive as a desire for sex, to a certain extent at least. It is only because they are beautiful that I have that desire. If we didnt think they were attractive, we wouldnt desire them like that, would we?
There are plenty of people I think are sexually desirable, purely based on their looks, as I have no deeper knowledge of them. Isnt desire just the natural response for finding someone attractive?
Conscieniously, I just thnk of looks as a positive feature, like athletic ability or intelligence, but subconscientiously that trait as valued differently.
How can I not think of attractive people as attractive? Are we not allowed to think of physical appearances as a positive attribute for others? Is lust based on the conscientious desire ,or in depth contemplation, of sex or just the subconscientious, more primal, instinct for sex?

There are two main reasons to have sex,that I can think of, which are pleasure and reproduction.
Am I to believe there is no Christian way to have sex unless I want to have a child?
If I dont want a child there would be no acceptatble reason to have sex.

I guess you could use a symbol of Love as a reason for sex, but the act of sex isnt neccessary to get that result. You could have the same effect by just being willing to do it, not actually doing it. If you were some how obstructed from having sex from the one you love, for whatever reason, wouldnt the the willingness to do it show as much of a bond as if you have done it fully? You cant get the same effect ,of pleasure and reproduction, from just being willing to have sex with someone. Is it right to group these reasons together when they arnt?

Does anyone know what the Church teaches about this, in regards to what I have said?

 

[Solar]

Everything in moderation. You should try to look good and some people do. The thing is not to be vain and use your beauty to hurt others. As for lust, you shouldonly lust after your significiant other. Obviously some people are more good looking then others, but you shouldn't get super horny. Also, I'm pretty sure Christians encourage sex between a man and his wife.

 

[sweet oblivian]

lust is natural as long as you accact acordingly for those desires.

 

[krexia]

First of all, I don't think that considering someone attractive means you want to sleep with them. After all, it's possible for a straight person to recognise when someone of their own gender is attractive. It's totally possible to admire beauty or strength or athleticism without lust coming into the equation.

Commenting on Christian values is trickier, though. I've met a Christian who thinks it's immoral for him to touch his wife's breasts unless he intends to have sex with her and try to get her pregnant. And I'm pretty sure the Bible says that to commit a sin in your mind is the same as committing it in real life, which makes it impossible for any person to avoid sin.

But then that's a fundamental part of Christianity, right? That since Adam and Eve were expelled from Eden, every human is a sinner and all we can do is to acknowledge our sins, repent, and do whatever we can to avoid committing them.

A sin in the mind may be as bad a a sin in real life in the eyes of God, but in real life we have very little control over our emotional urges. What we can control is how we choose to act on those urges. It's nigh impossible not to feel vengeful when we are wronged, but we can make a choiceabout whether to seek vengeance or to forgive. Likewise it's very difficult to avoid noticing attractive people, but we can choose to act on that lust or to suppress it.

I'm not a Christian in any sense of the word, and I personally don't believe there's anything wrong with natural lust. But the lust urge is an unavoidable part (or flaw, if you choose to see it that way) of being human. You can beat yourself up about it or you can acknowledge that you'll never be "perfect" in the sense that God wants you to be and focus on what you can control - which is your actions.

 

[_EX]

First of all, I don't think that considering someone attractive means you want to sleep with them. After all, it's possible for a straight person to recognise when someone of their own gender is attractive.

But arnt they just judging their on what others, who are meant to desire, would enjoy. I know Mathew Mcconaughey is attractive, because that is what others view him as. I know he is attractive to others so I know he is attractive. I dont find him attractive but I know he is to many people. Kids can judge others on what they would be judge on by others, when they were actually able to desire them sexually, till then they are just using their contemporary checklist for what beauty looks like to base judgement.

It's totally possible to admire beauty or strength or athleticism without lust coming into the equation.

But isnt beauty designed for oneself to be more sexually desirable? If I aknowledge they are beautiful, am I not, to a certain extent, desiring them?

And I'm pretty sure the Bible says that to commit a sin in your mind is the same as committing it in real life, which makes it impossible for any person to avoid sin.

I am not saying I have some sex lust problems or anything. I just realised that I didnt know what lust was and what I had no idea is was such a big, possibly unavoidable, part of society.

But then that's a fundamental part of Christianity, right? That since Adam and Eve were expelled from Eden, every human is a sinner and all we can do is to acknowledge our sins, repent, and do whatever we can to avoid committing them.

If I start thinking like that, I might end up justifying my sins by thinking I am a predesigned sinner and couldnt help it.

A sin in the mind may be as bad a a sin in real life in the eyes of God, but in real life we have very little control over our emotional urges.

Exactly. That is what I was confused about. I wouldnt actually do what I am desiring, I have enough discipline to avoid the act, but it is the thoughts that I cant avoid. If we could stop sexual urges, there would be no challenge to being abstinent. I am really not trying to find some loop hole in teaching where there is a double standard or anything. I just want to know what, exactly, I have to do.

What we can control is how we choose to act on those urges. It's nigh impossible not to feel vengeful when we are wronged, but we can make a choiceabout whether to seek vengeance or to forgive. Likewise it's very difficult to avoid noticing attractive people, but we can choose to act on that lust or to suppress it.

Yeah, I know. Why would lust even be counted as a deadly sin if we dont choose to do it nor can we avoid it. I can avoid greed and sloth etc but not a natural desire like lust.

You can beat yourself up about it or you can acknowledge that you'll never be "perfect" in the sense that God wants you to be and focus on what you can control - which is your actions.

That is confusing to me when my teachers and Church make it abundantly clear that thoughts are sins too.

Anyway, thanks for your help.

 

[krexia]

But isnt beauty designed for oneself to be more sexually desirable? If I aknowledge they are beautiful, am I not, to a certain extent, desiring them?

In my view, no. Sexual beauty isn't the only kind of beauty. I don't think that noticing someone is attractive is the same thing as feeling lust towards them - I'd consider lust to be sexual arousal. I don't think you should feel guilty every time you see someone you think is pretty. I know I have zero sexual desire for members of my own sex, that doesn't mean I never admire the way they look. Have you honestly never had your own opinion about whether another man is attractive? You don't personally think some men look better than others?

As for the idea of sin, again, my understanding is that according to Christianity all humans are doomed to sin sometimes, because none of us is perfect. But that doesn't mean you can justify your actions by saying "Hey, I can't help myself!" - nor does it mean that you should give up in the face of an impossible task. Isn't all all God asks that you do your best to avoid sin, acknowledge your failures, and ask to be forgiven for them? I guess it's a fine line to walk between the "I can't help it!" justification and honest acceptance of human fallibility, but I don't think you should beat yourself up too much about feelings you have very little control over.

 

[_EX]

In my view, no. Sexual beauty isn't the only kind of beauty. I don't think that noticing someone is attractive is the same thing as feeling lust towards them - I'd consider lust to be sexual arousal.

Which tends to happen when someone finds someone attractive.

Have you honestly never had your own opinion about whether another man is attractive? You don't personally think some men look better than others?

I know some guys are attractive, only because I know what people who find them attractive base their judgement off of. I dont personally find them attractive, I just know that they are attractive because others do find them attractive.

I am just using what I know women find attractive for men to decide whether or not they are attractive. I dont find men attractive, personally, no.

 

[krexia]

[Sexual arousal] tends to happen when someone finds someone attractive.

I guess this might be true for teenage boys. Can't say I remember exactly how I felt going through puberty, but I can say for certain that there are plenty of people I'd consider "pretty" now that I don't have the least bit of desire for.

I dont find men attractive, personally, no.

If I showed you two pictures of men, you honestly couldn't tell me which one you think looks nicer than the other? You don't think this is a better body than this?

I was wondering though - if it's impossible to separate appreciating human beauty from lust, is it also impossible to separate admiring a beautiful painting from greed (wanting to own it)? Is it impossible to separate admiration for a friend's achievements from jealousy?

 

[_EX]

I guess this might be true for teenage boys. Can't say I remember exactly how I felt going through puberty, but I can say for certain that there are plenty of people I'd consider "pretty" now that I don't have the least bit of desire for.

Megan Fox is attractive. Many guys would desire her sexually because of her looks alone.

If I showed you two pictures of men, you honestly couldn't tell me which one you think looks nicer than the other? You don't think this is a better body than this?

I could tell you who was more attractive, but I would be basing my choice on what I know most women would think. To me, finding someone attractive=/= knowning someone is attractive.
I would consider finding someone attractive as being attracted to them, based on their looks, which doesnt happen with guys, personally. I know that guys are attractive because of what the media has taught me is attractive. I am just using the same 'beauty checklist' for guys that I have been taught that most women use.

I was wondering though - if it's impossible to separate appreciating human beauty from lust, is it also impossible to separate admiring a beautiful painting from greed (wanting to own it)? Is it impossible to separate admiration for a friend's achievements from jealousy?

Yeah, I know the feeling. I dont quite know how I cant be proud of myself if I am also expected to love myself and who I am, which originates from my achievements. I dont want to tear apart my religion though. I am sure there are teachings that talk about these and sort out the confusion, which is what I was looking for.

 

[Nyangoro]

Honestly, when it comes to me (a heterosexual) finding another man attractive, I don't think much of it. It seems obvious that there's a difference between sexual attraction (infatuation) and being able to recognize someone as attractive.

Now, with regards to the whole "thinking=doing" facet of the Christian definition of sin, I think it's a matter of exercising good Christian judgment. It's similar to the whole "don't cause your brother to stumble" concept, only more self-analytical. An example of "don't cause your brother to stumble" would be something like not drinking (even though there is no problem with having a drink) around fellow Christians who absolutely oppose the concept. There's no benefit to confusing them about morals (it's fine to talk about it, but don't "flaunt your superior knowledge of the Bible" or whatever you'd call it). Similarly, with the "thinking=doing" notion; if you find yourself wondering if your thoughts are going to far, that's probably a good sign to check yourself.

 

[krexia]

Megan Fox is attractive. Many guys would desire her sexually because of her looks alone.

Oh I absolutely agree that a person can experience lust based on looks alone. My point is that thinking someone looks good doesn't always mean you desire them sexually. I mean, you can recognise when female family members look good in a certain dress, without feeling the slightest bit of lust for them, right?

I could tell you who was more attractive, but I would be basing my choice on what I know most women would think.

You really don't have your own opinion about whether one looks better than the other?

Yeah, I know the feeling. I dont quite know how I cant be proud of myself if I am also expected to love myself and who I am, which originates from my achievements. I dont want to tear apart my religion though. I am sure there are teachings that talk about these and sort out the confusion, which is what I was looking for.

My personal view is that pretty much any "positive" feeling can be seen in a negative light if taken too far - that in most of these cases we're looking at different points on the same scale. Like you said, you're supposed to love yourself but not be proud of yourself - that is, to love yourself, but not too much. I think the same applies to appreciation of beauty and lust. Admiring someone's appearance and lusting over them may only be separated by degree, but that separation is all important.

 

[_EX]

Oh I absolutely agree that a person can experience lust based on looks alone. My point is that thinking someone looks good doesn't always mean you desire them sexually. I mean, you can recognise when female family members look good in a certain dress, without feeling the slightest bit of lust for them, right?

I dont know. I usually just group it all together. I never really thought there were different parts to it.

You really don't have your own opinion about whether one looks better than the other?

Only about what I think I would like to be like, which often isnt commonly seen as attractve. I can see physical traits they have that I would like to share.

My personal view is that pretty much any "positive" feeling can be seen in a negative light if taken too far - that in most of these cases we're looking at different points on the same scale. Like you said, you're supposed to love yourself but not be proud of yourself - that is, to love yourself, but not too much. I think the same applies to appreciation of beauty and lust. Admiring someone's appearance and lusting over them may only be separated by degree, but that separation is all important.

Previously, I had no idea of a seperation between, to any degree. Thanks for explaining it.

 

[Raun]

You can find someone attractive without having lust for them. I see pretty girls in school all the time, but that doesn't mean I want to sleep with them. And as far as sex for Christians goes, it doesn't need to be only for reproduction. You can have sex just to have sex, if you are married. By what you're saying, older couples shouldn't have sex because they are no longer capable of reproducing. If they are married and in love, then it's okay. Even oral sex is allowed for Christians (Song of Songs) and that can't cause pregnancy now can it?

 

[_EX]

And as far as sex for Christians goes, it doesn't need to be only for reproduction. You can have sex just to have sex, if you are married. By what you're saying, older couples shouldn't have sex because they are no longer capable of reproducing.

But if they are having sex for pleasure then that is lust. Lust is a desire for sex/sexual pleasure. If there is no other motive, e.g reproduction, then you are having lust.

 

[Raun]

But if they are having sex for pleasure then that is lust. Lust is a desire for sex/sexual pleasure. If there is no other motive, e.g reproduction, then you are having lust.

But there's nothing wrong with it if its toward your own spouse. If you are married, and you and your spouse ate a nice dinner, at the day of your anniversary, and you two had a romantic day, then what's wrong with sex? If both partners want to have sex because both are aroused, but don't want any kids at that time, you are saying that it's wrong to act on those feelings, even when married? When a couple is married, it's not really even lust.

 

[krexia]

But if they are having sex for pleasure then that is lust. Lust is a desire for sex/sexual pleasure. If there is no other motive, e.g reproduction, then you are having lust.

Yeah, that was the view of the Christian guy I mentioned who thinks it's a sin to touch his wife's breasts unless they're about to have sex to try to get pregnant.

 

[Nyangoro]

But if they are having sex for pleasure then that is lust. Lust is a desire for sex/sexual pleasure. If there is no other motive, e.g reproduction, then you are having lust.

Honestly, I disagree (sort of). It seems to me that lust would be more accurately defined as "desiring sex for the sake of sex". As in, the only thing you want from the person is sex and nothing more. Sexual attraction isn't wrong for the simple reason that if we didn't experience that emotion (otherwise known as infatuation), we'd never want sex to begin with.

 

[_EX]

Honestly, I disagree (sort of). It seems to me that lust would be more accurately defined as "desiring sex for the sake of sex". As in, the only thing you want from the person is sex and nothing more. Sexual attraction isn't wrong for the simple reason that if we didn't experience that emotion (otherwise known as infatuation), we'd never want sex to begin with.

Is that deffinition commonly believed to be the most accurate interperatation of what the Bible was talking about when it said lust was bad? It sounds more realistic for the Bible.

 

[Nyangoro]

Is that deffinition commonly believed to be the most accurate interperatation of what the Bible was talking about when it said lust was bad? It sounds more realistic for the Bible.

To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure (and I'm no Greek scholar either, lol). Obviously, one of the biggest problems with trying to understand the Bible is whether or not an interpretation is valid (often, we understand the general idea, but specifics tend to be more difficult). What I try to do is take the general definition and refine it using the various examples and ideas in the Bible to make it consistent. From that, I've arrived at this conclusion (I could be wrong, obviously, but I think I'm at least headed in the right direction).

 

[Raun]

Nevermore appears to be right with what she(?) is saying. That's kinda what I was trying to say, but I couldn't get it in the right words.