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Namine confusion



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billyzanesucks

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It depends on how many hearts were expelled from Xehanort's body. So far, we know of only one, that being XH.
MX was a part of XH. It's very possible his old body became a nobody.
Precisely. I believe his connection with Sora and Roxas gave him the ability to feel emotions. The same can be said for Namine.
Maybe. I can't say anything against this, this is all just speculation at this point.
While Namine does have a body of some sort, I don't think it can be classified as the same type of bodies that make up complete beings and Nobodies.
She was given physical existence through Sora. That's all I'm trying to say here.
She has power over his memories as a result of being created through his body. That doesn't necessarily mean that she's made of it, just that she's connected to it.
He gave her a physical body, just as he gave Roxas a body. The only difference is that Kairi's heart was used to create her rather than Sora's heart.
Come to think of it, if Namine was basically Sora's body split...Why did Ven's heart stick with just Roxas?
Because Roxas was Sora's nobody. The heart used in creation has a lot to do with the outcome.
 

Nayru's Love

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MX was a part of XH. It's very possible his old body became a nobody.

Going by what Sephiroth said earlier, MX hasn't fulfilled the requirements for his old body to become a Nobody. Also, his old body would have to be part of the process of Xehanort becoming a Heartless, otherwise Kairi's actual body would have become a Nobody as soon as she left Sora's heart.

Maybe. I can't say anything against this, this is all just speculation at this point.
Axel's emotions have become less speculation and more concrete fact as the series has been progressing.

She was given physical existence through Sora. That's all I'm trying to say here.
Fair enough.

He gave her a physical body, just as he gave Roxas a body. The only difference is that Kairi's heart was used to create her rather than Sora's heart.
Because Roxas was Sora's nobody. The heart used in creation has a lot to do with the outcome.
So we can agree that there's an exclusive connection between Sora's heart and his body.
 

billyzanesucks

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Going by what Sephiroth said earlier, MX hasn't fulfilled the requirements for his old body to become a Nobody. Also, his old body would have to be part of the process of Xehanort becoming a Heartless, otherwise Kairi's actual body would have become a Nobody as soon as she left Sora's heart.
It was definitely hinted at by Nomura. It also goes with the idea of multiple Xehanorts coming back. I don't think this situation can be compared with Kairi's. She should have produced a nobody when her heart left her original nobody, but she didn't. I think her body was just prevented from leaving the RoL. Actually, I'm pretty sure I heard that somewhere. With our current knowledge, we can't decide if he left a nobody or not, but with the strong hints towards it, I'd say there's a good chance of it.
Axel's emotions have become less speculation and more concrete fact as the series has been progressing.
He did give up his life. Looking back on it, they were very genuine, though I'm not sure about his connection to Sora being the cause. I don't think we can figure that out until we know more about his creation or what the Organization might have done to him.
So we can agree that there's an exclusive connection between Sora's heart and his body.
Agreed.
 

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It was definitely hinted at by Nomura. It also goes with the idea of multiple Xehanorts coming back. I don't think this situation can be compared with Kairi's. She should have produced a nobody when her heart left her original nobody, but she didn't. I think her body was just prevented from leaving the RoL. Actually, I'm pretty sure I heard that somewhere. With our current knowledge, we can't decide if he left a nobody or not, but with the strong hints towards it, I'd say there's a good chance of it.

Kairi couldn't produce a Nobody the first time because there was no Heartless involved. IIRC, Nomura stated how Riku couldn't produce a Nobody for the very same reason. If MX did in fact create some sort of being as a result of his body disappearing, I don't think we can call it a Nobody (or at least a normal one).

He did give up his life. Looking back on it, they were very genuine, though I'm not sure about his connection to Sora being the cause. I don't think we can figure that out until we know more about his creation or what the Organization might have done to him.

Axel said:
He made me feel like I had a heart...You make me feel the same.

That, and Blank Points implies that he has a connection with Sora (albeit a different one from the others in torment).
 

Absolute

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I like the idea Grass made that Namine was a physical representation of the spell aqua placed on Kairi.

Same here. They definitely put a focus on that spell for a reason in BBS. Other than the possibility of that, what other thing could Kairi have lost that went to namine that kairi needed to justify them combining together at the end of KHII?

Also, there has to be a reason why namine was born in Castle Oblivion, or rather, land of Departure instead of Twilight Town.
 

Nayru's Love

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Other than the possibility of that, what other thing could Kairi have lost that went to namine that kairi needed to justify them combining together at the end of KHII?
As far as we know, there doesn't have to be a reason why they joined together in KH2. Furthermore, it's not as if either of them would even have been aware of whatever part of Namine that Kairi would have needed.

Also, there has to be a reason why namine was born in Castle Oblivion, or rather, land of Departure instead of Twilight Town.

It wouldn't surprise me if there was a reason. However, as with the case above, there doesn't have to be one, as all Nobodies are born in the RoN, with no limitations as to where in there that they appear in.
 

billyzanesucks

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Kairi couldn't produce a Nobody the first time because there was no Heartless involved. IIRC, Nomura stated how Riku couldn't produce a Nobody for the very same reason. If MX did in fact create some sort of being as a result of his body disappearing, I don't think we can call it a Nobody (or at least a normal one).
If Namine was an effect of Sora becoming a heartless, she would be Sora's and Kairi's nobody, or just his. Namine was caused by Kairi leaving Sora, likely because that situation would normally cause one to become a heartless. In any case, she was an exception. At this point, saying MX didn't leave anything is like saying there won't be a Birth by Sleep Volume 2.
That, and Blank Points implies that he has a connection with Sora (albeit a different one from the others in torment).
Of course he has a connection, but we're not sure how much that means. It could be that Axel had a heart and emotions, but just didn't know it. Roxas didn't think he had one, because everyone kept saying he didn't. With such a routine schedule and being around people so emotionless, he probably didn't have much reason to feel. It could be the same case with Axel. When he found other people with real emotions, he began to feel some himself.
 

Nayru's Love

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If Namine was an effect of Sora becoming a heartless, she would be Sora's and Kairi's nobody, or just his. Namine was caused by Kairi leaving Sora, likely because that situation would normally cause one to become a heartless. In any case, she was an exception.

If Namine was born simply out of Kairi's heart leaving Sora, then Riku's heart leaving his body would have created a Nobody as well. Fact is that a Heartless has to be involved in the birth process of a Nobody.

At this point, saying MX didn't leave anything is like saying there won't be a Birth by Sleep Volume 2.
If anything, I'd expect his body to be comatose in some other dimension, waiting for his heart to return (if that's even possible at this point).

Of course he has a connection, but we're not sure how much that means. It could be that Axel had a heart and emotions, but just didn't know it. Roxas didn't think he had one, because everyone kept saying he didn't.
Roxas is a different case because, in one way or another, his emotions could be traced back to someone's heart, to which the reason being would usually relate to his status as a special Nobody. While it's possible that Axel may be a special Nobody by birth, there's been no hinting at whatsoever to this possibility.
 

billyzanesucks

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If Namine was born simply out of Kairi's heart leaving Sora, then Riku's heart leaving his body would have created a Nobody as well. Fact is that a Heartless has to be involved in the birth process of a Nobody.
Maybe, but those situations aren't exactly the same. Riku's heart wasn't even touched by darkness at all. Sora stabbed himself with the keyblade of people's hearts, which naturally unlocks the darkness in one's heart. It wouldn't be much of a stretch to say that Kairi was affected too. Since she didn't have any darkness in her heart though, she didn't create a heartless. If she was any normal person, under the circumstances, she would become a heartless. It's possible that she was an exception, fulfilling the requirements even though she didn't actually lose her heart to darkness. Otherwise, she would have been (mainly) Sora's nobody or maybe she would have not existed at all, considering that Kairi was the main reason for her existence. Now you say a heartless has to be "involved." Originally, people said that the heart must become a heartless for the correlated nobody to be formed, which isn't the case with Namine. There is no rule to the exception.
If anything, I'd expect his body to be comatose in some other dimension, waiting for his heart to return (if that's even possible at this point).
Now that I think about it, that's the most likely thing. If he was back, why wouldn't we have seen him already? Unless they pull an Organization XIII on us and MX has been scheming his next plan somewhere in secrecy.
Roxas is a different case because, in one way or another, his emotions could be traced back to someone's heart, to which the reason being would usually relate to his status as a special Nobody.
I'm not sure you understand. I just said that maybe Axel had a heart, and you're saying that it's different because Roxas had a heart.
While it's possible that Axel may be a special Nobody by birth, there's been no hinting at whatsoever to this possibility.
You're just generalizing what I said. I said that Axel might have a heart, which is hinted at by his emotions. It's best to avoid terms like "special nobody," it's just too general.
 
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Fact is that a Heartless has to be involved in the birth process of a Nobody.

This has never been explicitly stated, the fandom has essentially just come to regard this as fact.
I really just think it has to do with misunderstandings.

The Ansem Reports never emphasized Heartless in the creation of Nobodies, ie:
"When the heart casts away the body, where does the body go?"
"But what of the soul and body left behind when the heart is lost? When the soul leaves the body, its vessel, life gives way to death, but what about when the heart leaves?"

The important part here is that the heart leaves the vessel. Not what happens to the heart afterward. Really, why would the heart becoming a Heartless have ANYTHING to do with the creation of a Nobody? Or put another way, why would the absence of a Heartless prevent a Nobody from being created? It doesn't make sense, there's no logical connection.

There are, as always, exceptions. Kairi didn't originally produce a Nobody, NOT because her heart didn't make a Heartless (though that itself shares the same reason), but because, as an entity of light, she could not leave the realm of light to be recreated as a Nobody.
So why didn't Riku make a Nobody? A similar reason. His body could not be recreated as a Nobody because it was being used by Ansem, he retained control of the vessel.

The underlying exception in these cases is that the body and soul cannot be used to create a Nobody, for whatever reason. It has been pretty clearly stated that a body and soul are needed in the creation of a Nobody.
But what about Namine?

"Naminé is Kairi's Nobody, but came into being via Sora's body and soul." Even I have debated in the past the meaning of this sentence, and argued against this, but I honestly think at this point that it simply means, yes, she used Sora's body and soul. Part of it, anyway. And this isn't at all hard to understand.

The body (and to a further extent, the soul, as what one can define as the "body's battery"), has been shown to be pretty unremarkable in this series. There's nothing very special about them. In fact, when normal humans die/lose their heart, they appear to disintegrate into light (suggesting that that is their material). People need to stop thinking from a western viewpoint that the body or soul are somehow important. They're not. In fact, Kairi essentially makes Sora new ones from her light when she saves him.

So, Sora never needed Roxas back because of his body and soul. He needed Roxas back because of his memories, and that's it.
In other words, I'm saying that Roxas and Namine simply split Sora's body and soul because there were two hearts that left his vessel (regardless of whether or not they made heartless), and only one body. People need to stop being hung up on the earlier statements in the Secret Ansem Reports when DiZ calls Namine a "non-being" that hasn't even become a true Nobody. That was a hypothesis. One that was debunked by another one in the report directly after it.

Yeah. I know I have made a few theories in the past and have spent a lot of time on this subject. I still like my most recent theory (which I conceded would not be the true answer, so it's more of an individual interpretation than a theory). And, of course, the problem is that the manner of Roxas and Namine's creations was conveyed very poorly by Nomura. But I think that many times we have simply overcomplicated things based on misunderstandings and rules devised in the fandom.

So, if Namine was using Sora's body and soul, was she technically Sora's Nobody too? Sure, depending on what you want to emphasize, though she was Kairi's above all else because she personified her. But that explains why she had control over Sora's memories, though did not actually claim them. Because she was born from Sora's body and soul (the containers of memories for the Nobody), but she took on Kairi's identity.

Why then did Namine have to return to Kairi? She didn't. She only did so because otherwise she herself would fade into darkness, it's not as though she was returning anything to Kairi (though it remains to be seen whether or not Kairi gained anything from this). Does it mean Kairi now has a piece of Sora's body and soul? No, because, again, that's western philosophy trying to invade your mind. Namine was made from Sora's body and soul, but these things, broken down into their basic substance, are unremarkable and not very unique (only a heart makes them unique). It may have strengthened the connection between Sora and Kairi at best, but it is not as though Kairi literally has a piece of Sora in her.

So, going back to the original topic, does a Heartless have to be created? No. It simply must leave the vessel. 99 times out of 100 (or really much more than that), this entails that the heart will be lost to a Heartless, but it is not necessarily always the case.
Looking ahead, what does this suggest about the future?
For a hypothetical "Eraqus Nobody," nothing. Eraqus' heart wasn't simply leaving his body, Eraqus died, which is something completely different. It looks the same, but don't let that fool you (they would opt for people to disintegrate into light/darkness rather than have a corpse). As opposed to just letting his heart go back to Kingdom Hearts (or perhaps become a Heartless, whatever happens to the heart after one dies), Eraqus, in his last moments, directed his heart into Terra's heart, probably to act as a guide. But his body and soul are separate and they're gone. There is no Nobody to be made, there is nothing to make it out of.

For Terranort (when he stabbed himself), again, nothing. We probably don't know the full extent of the effects, but no heart was shown leaving the vessel, and in any case, the vessel was still in control (like how Ansem was using Riku's body), so there's no way a Nobody was created.

And for Master Xehanort? Yeah, he might have a Nobody. His vessel was left behind, and that's all that matters. When I made a theory about MX potentially making a Nobody, I thought that I'd have to prove MX made a heartless when he entered Terra's vessel, but that's really not the case.
 

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Anyone hear something..odd when they go to the first page of this topic? I thought it was one of those autoplay youtube videos in sigs, but it's there even after disabling sigs.


EDIT: Grass how do you still maintain this KH fervor in a news drought like this you essay-crazed maniac.
 

billyzanesucks

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I think Grass gave the best explanation. Though I still think Eraqus may have a nobody (the other time).

I think I know what you're talking about, Zulkir. I'm pretty sure it's that one Tron sig. Don't know why it wouldn't turn off.
 
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It's chihuahuaman. Might be an invisible embed in his sig with a video loop?

EDIT: Grass how do you still maintain this KH fervor in a news drought like this you essay-crazed maniac.

boredom and faggotry

I think Grass gave the best explanation. Though I still think Eraqus may have a nobody (the other time).

By the other time, do you mean when Apprentice Xehanort releases his heart?
In order for him to produce an Eraqus Nobody, he would need to have released Eraqus' heart separate from Terra/MX's heart, which is possible. Though I can't say how probable it is.
 
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