Regardless of what Jiminy Cricket thinks, Sora looks just fine at the end of the fight. Terra, Ven, and Aqua all look fine after the Vanitas Remnant fight too.
Sora vs. Aqua
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Sora would win he is the main character of the story so seriously how can he lose, he wont
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Except with Vanitas there was no source that contradicted that, with Sora there is. And please Jimmy journal is not what "Jimmy thinks" he cant think anything, is just a fictional character which words and actions are nothing more than text inputs inserted there by programmers and animations made in an studio.
Jimmy is a message to us gamers, it cant be more clear it is as cannon as the reports and Nomura's interviews is Nomura talking to us.
Another excellent argument in Sora's defense. So basically you just said "Sora would win due to PIS/Plot".
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Then how bout this? Sora, in a one on one fight, would use trinity. Aqua, having no way to counter would be defeated in seconds. And for real, limit form could destroy Aqua. Sora is invulnerable durring attacks like Ars Acanum and Sonic Blade. Aqua doesn't have a chance.
Yuup thats exactly what i said... questions? problems?
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So then you are aware this is basically the same as if lets say, I put Naruto the main character of Naruto and Living Tribunal a beign who can think megaverses (infinite collection of multiverses which in turn have an infinite collection of universes) in and out of existence and is second only to God and I say "Naruto wins because he is the main character, so he cant lose, seriously he cant".
You are aware saying someone wins due to PIS and CIS (character induced stupidity and plot induced stupidity) is by no mean a demonstrative of the strenght and power of a character right?
I dont really care in the end sora would win and thats that. No offense i dont give to f***s about Narato, If sora and aqua were to fight sora would win
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*Sign* actually, i think we don't have to continue argue in this thread, since XehanortHeartles will keep insisting his aqua is the best, despite what we're arguing, I think if it continue to argue, the thread become a mess.
Anyway, different people having different opinion.
You can't force people to goes along with your opinion.
Anyway, different people having different opinion.
You can't force people to goes along with your opinion.
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Again winning DUE PLOT is BY NO WAY indicative of strenght. If they were to fight they would fight in a neutral ground without PIS and CIS winning due plot means NOTHING strenghtwise.
Actually I already told smile that this would be a very pretty even fight where anyone could win. The only thing I ask is that feats and abilities are taken I want a mature and fair square debate where facts and not fanboyism are taken in count. I expect to hear for example "Sora and Aqua would win because they have X abilities or would stalemate because of Y abilities and this and that, etc." But answers like "Sora would win because the author would force the fight to win" or "would win because he is the main hero" "Because of plot" or "Because he is my favourite character" are in my opinion answers that ignore all feats are based purely on fanboyism and give in no way indicative of strenght.
Want to argue that Sora wins because he is the main character or because of plot? Fine I wont debate that if PIS is not taken out of the battle. But if people want to answer that must be aware that this mean nothing strenghtwise. What bugs me is that people give answers like "Sora would win due tu plot" "He is stronger because he will save everyone" and try to pass those arguments as beign indicative of Sora's superiority, which obviously winning due PIS cant in no way be considered a feat of streght. If 2 fictional characters meet at the ring it is expected they fight using their abilities, without PLOT that will force the win to any side neither CIS and in a neutral arena. Otherwise how can you gauge the strenght of 2 characters when you assume an external force will force the win on a side?
When debating I try to be consistent fair and square and if you can show me Sora wins with FEATS, abilities, powerscaling and word of God which is how proper debating between 2 characters is done in a neutral arena without PIS and CIS I will admit it. Otherwise to me they are equal and the fight could go either way and if the best answers are "I love sora so he wins" "Sora is the main character so Nomura will make him win no matter what" then good luck.
I like how he completely ignored my winning post. lol
I'll say it again. Sora has plenty of abilities that make him invulnerable. He can use limit form by himself. Limit form gives him access to abilities such as Ars Arcanum, Ragnorak, Sonic Blade, and Strike Raid. Unlike Aqua's command styles, Sora's drive forms can be accessed at the beginning of the fight. Also, the trinity move that Sora performs by himself would be more than enough to finish off Aqua.
Don't get me wrong, Aqua is powerful. But Sora has more abilities and easier access to them.
I'll say it again. Sora has plenty of abilities that make him invulnerable. He can use limit form by himself. Limit form gives him access to abilities such as Ars Arcanum, Ragnorak, Sonic Blade, and Strike Raid. Unlike Aqua's command styles, Sora's drive forms can be accessed at the beginning of the fight. Also, the trinity move that Sora performs by himself would be more than enough to finish off Aqua.
Don't get me wrong, Aqua is powerful. But Sora has more abilities and easier access to them.
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Doesnt Sora need Goofy and Donald to perform some of this?. Also I never ignored your post, I took all these factors in consideration. However you must be aware forms are time limited and no enemy or boss in the history of KH have been able to be finished from the beginning to the end in the time of a form, but of course forms would be a great asset, prehaps the greater.
Sora of course is super powerful, so do Aqua which is why I didnt said Aqua wins, I said that this fight is even based on feats, info and abilities and thus any of them could win.
Sora has:
-Forms
-Limits (IF they dont include Donald and Goofy)
-Trinity (IF they dont include Donald and Goofy)
Aqua has:
- Armor
- Can use the Keyblade as LS did and thus fight basically as him, it is to note the speed of riding the Keyblade totally surpassed final form Sora speed
- Superior magic
- Proper Keyblade training for years
- Masterhood
I say they are evenly matched and anyone could win, I cant see how anyone that base this fight based on feats, abilities and information is going to say otherwise. Of course unless you want to go the "Sora is the main character so he wins" route.
Please note this is without Donald and Goofy unless you want Aqua to have Terra and Ventus.
For those who say "XehanortHeartless will always say Aqua wins" no, I am already saying she is even and the fight could go either way, without possibility of predicting a sure and certain winner. Since I already conceded that I wont assume she can destroy and reshape worlds unless she or Sora and Riku show it after passing MoM thus proving that effectively passing MoM grants that knowledgement, I say they are equal.
I am basing my entire argument entirely on feats, information and abilities rather than preference and fanboyism and I cant see Sora winning over aqua without dispute taking these in consideration, neither the other way around.
And no I dont think Aqua would "win everything"
List of people that I think are even with Aqua:
- Sora
- Riku
- Possibly King Mickey
List of people who would totally destroy/rape/wipe the floor with Aqua:
- Post Meger Xemnas
- Mysterious Figure (assuming all his hype turns out to be true)
- Complete X-blade Vanitas
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I tend to think Mickey's stronger. As for Riku, while he lacks magic, he has his Darkness which might make this an even more interesting match-up.
It should also be added - without Ven holding him back from the inside.
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Mickey was on clearly and without dispute on Aqua's level at KG battle, and since both have trained intensely since that day I think the level should be regular. As for Riku indeed he should be even with Aqua and an interesting fight. As well as Sora.
Yes indeed, unhindered X-blade Vanitas would wipe the floor with Aqua and everyone else in KHverse bar merger Xemnas.
Voting Sora on this one.
While yes, Aqua does hold more experience, simply for the fact she's been doing this gig for years now, that still doesn't impress me as far as the actual character goes.
She isn't the strongest out there, either. I don't know where you people are getting this from, but you should pay closer attention to some of her battles. She's almost lost on several occasions, every time she fought Vanitas was a struggle, and she was damn lucky in the "Venitas" battle she didn't get killed. If Vanitas had been stronger or whatever it was over Ventus, I honestly do not think she'd have been remotely close to prevailing. And I honestly do not believe newly-possessed "Terranort" was at his full potential during that battle, and that there was an internal struggle residing in that heart as well, preventing full potential.
And if we're going to base all this on "strength" and all that crap, start taking a look.
While no, Sora doesn't have the same experience, he is catching up, due to necessity of survival. If he doesn't stay sharp and learn quick, he's good as dead, even WITH Donald and Goofy by his side.
Onto the actual character?
Sora is by far my pick over Aqua.
Now, I'll bet half of you are throwing a tantrum over that.
And I don't care.
But I'll explain as to why.
A chick who had the choice to do all this, threw accusations at her friend for being too close to the darkness, has an issue not looking outside her master's teachings, and is a huge cause as to why the kid, ten years later, has to clean up that mess, AND go save their asses...
She manages to lose both friends in the process too.
Then gets stuck in the RoD.
While yes, she loves her friends dearly, that doesn't make a character superior. She is obligated due to choosing the path of a Keyblade Weilder (I believe she was given a choice to become one) to the tasks a Weilder/Master face. While yes she is strong, and kind, and loves her friends more than anything...she has traits that cause me to turn sour at the mention of her, and her actions and thoughts I sometimes find in poor favor, but that is what helps her character I suppose...she actually has flaws.
Let's take a look at the other candidate, shall we?
A fourteen year old kid, carefree, happy-go-lucky, relatable.
Get's the worlds' problems shoved onto his shoulders, all because the Keyblade itself chose him.
He loses his two best friends in the process, reveives a duty/obligation he did not choose to be a part of, thrust at him, and without a choice BUT to carry on with it.
His best friend of lord-knows how long suddenly turns on him, yada yada. We all know what happens.
Oh, oh! Let's not forget the insanity at Castle Oblivion, nyeh? Marluxia and them pests.
He then gets his memories unchained, ends up in some crazy pod and sleeps for a year, all so he can have his memories restored.
Ends up almost not happening due to a certain genderless replica, too.
Then he wakes up in a pod in a place he can't exactly recall, with no recollection as to what the heck happened aside for he and his two companions on another quest to find Mickey and Riku.
Ends up having to hunt down the girl too, while saving the worlds again.
Finally a tearful reunion with his very bestest friend, they almost get their asses handed to them by a psycho that looks a little like a certain someone.
In the end everyone goes home.
Woop-de-friggin'-do.
Oh oh!
And a letter, saying how he's the only one that can save these people.
He doesn't remember/know them.
Yet you want to know the amazing thing about this kid?
He does it anyway.
While yes, he's naive and not the brightest, or the strongest, and he's just a simple kid, remember: Sora was shoved into this. He didn't receive a choice in the matter. Aqua, we can assume, was given the choice to be apart of this Keyblade-mania. Aqua by obligation from duty was required to protect/save the worlds and all that jazz.
Sora, being the idiot kid some of us can't help but adore, is now doing so out of what his heart is telling him (while for the selfish reason of finding his friends...who can't seem to HELP IT but go MISSING), not necessarily by duty. It's an "along the way" ordeal...
He could look the other way now, technically; he has Riku and Kairi back. But he won't. He knows what's right. He's doing it from the heart, not duty the other Keybladers are obliged to, "protecting the worlds and seven Princess of Heart" and all that. It's more...personal. His entire story is just personal, with every person/friend he meets and makes, it's personal to him. He bonds to them, and vice versa. His journeys are always personal.
I hold a lot more respect for him because of that.
Fun Thought to Consider: (Because this is something to think about)
Let's take a look at these strengths and stuff. ;D
Aqua has been given little to no room for expansion. (I dare you to find that room.)
She's already a Master, her personality and thought process locked in stone- as seen through the Birth by Sleep on several occassions. (She hates darkness, she still holds accusations towards Terra and that darkness, to name a reoccurence...hmmm...)
Sora still has room for growth, both in personality AND in combat.
He is not yet a Master (he may never be, we won't know for awhile, nyeh~), and he's been learning through actual hands-on experience. ;P
You cannot compare the two via ways of learning. One had a Master, the other is acting on hands-on learning and survival. That does not prove which one is better.
Now, if you're going to fight me via the way I see things, you'd better have actual evidence that can change my mind/disprove what I said, and I'll respectfully say I'm wrong. Otherwise my opinion stands: I hold way more respect and approval over Sora's character due to the fact over the reasons he's been doing everything he has been, and the overal personal feel everything he's gone through. He also has room for growth. Growth in itself allows the observer to watch and grow alongside what they're watching. Don't get me wrong, Aqua is in herself an interesting character and I hold both respect and aggravation for her awesome qualities and flaws, but I can't click to her and respect her like I can with other characters. :/ (Sora, Riku, Roxas, etc.)
Sora's heart is what I find admirable, and the bonds he and so many characters, both Disney, Final Fantasy, and original to the series itself share make it all the more special to me personally, and gives me more insight to the actual character presented to me.
That's the character I can approve and appreciate, even through his/her flaws. (He's quite snarky now, hm?)
I'm exhausted...bleck. x.x
(And Smile, holy crap your posts are inspiring, and well thought out!! <3 Had me thinking a lot while I was reading this thread...)
While yes, Aqua does hold more experience, simply for the fact she's been doing this gig for years now, that still doesn't impress me as far as the actual character goes.
She isn't the strongest out there, either. I don't know where you people are getting this from, but you should pay closer attention to some of her battles. She's almost lost on several occasions, every time she fought Vanitas was a struggle, and she was damn lucky in the "Venitas" battle she didn't get killed. If Vanitas had been stronger or whatever it was over Ventus, I honestly do not think she'd have been remotely close to prevailing. And I honestly do not believe newly-possessed "Terranort" was at his full potential during that battle, and that there was an internal struggle residing in that heart as well, preventing full potential.
And if we're going to base all this on "strength" and all that crap, start taking a look.
While no, Sora doesn't have the same experience, he is catching up, due to necessity of survival. If he doesn't stay sharp and learn quick, he's good as dead, even WITH Donald and Goofy by his side.
Onto the actual character?
Sora is by far my pick over Aqua.
Now, I'll bet half of you are throwing a tantrum over that.
And I don't care.
But I'll explain as to why.
A chick who had the choice to do all this, threw accusations at her friend for being too close to the darkness, has an issue not looking outside her master's teachings, and is a huge cause as to why the kid, ten years later, has to clean up that mess, AND go save their asses...
She manages to lose both friends in the process too.
Then gets stuck in the RoD.
While yes, she loves her friends dearly, that doesn't make a character superior. She is obligated due to choosing the path of a Keyblade Weilder (I believe she was given a choice to become one) to the tasks a Weilder/Master face. While yes she is strong, and kind, and loves her friends more than anything...she has traits that cause me to turn sour at the mention of her, and her actions and thoughts I sometimes find in poor favor, but that is what helps her character I suppose...she actually has flaws.
Let's take a look at the other candidate, shall we?
A fourteen year old kid, carefree, happy-go-lucky, relatable.
Get's the worlds' problems shoved onto his shoulders, all because the Keyblade itself chose him.
He loses his two best friends in the process, reveives a duty/obligation he did not choose to be a part of, thrust at him, and without a choice BUT to carry on with it.
His best friend of lord-knows how long suddenly turns on him, yada yada. We all know what happens.
Oh, oh! Let's not forget the insanity at Castle Oblivion, nyeh? Marluxia and them pests.
He then gets his memories unchained, ends up in some crazy pod and sleeps for a year, all so he can have his memories restored.
Ends up almost not happening due to a certain genderless replica, too.
Then he wakes up in a pod in a place he can't exactly recall, with no recollection as to what the heck happened aside for he and his two companions on another quest to find Mickey and Riku.
Ends up having to hunt down the girl too, while saving the worlds again.
Finally a tearful reunion with his very bestest friend, they almost get their asses handed to them by a psycho that looks a little like a certain someone.
In the end everyone goes home.
Woop-de-friggin'-do.
Oh oh!
And a letter, saying how he's the only one that can save these people.
He doesn't remember/know them.
Yet you want to know the amazing thing about this kid?
He does it anyway.
While yes, he's naive and not the brightest, or the strongest, and he's just a simple kid, remember: Sora was shoved into this. He didn't receive a choice in the matter. Aqua, we can assume, was given the choice to be apart of this Keyblade-mania. Aqua by obligation from duty was required to protect/save the worlds and all that jazz.
Sora, being the idiot kid some of us can't help but adore, is now doing so out of what his heart is telling him (while for the selfish reason of finding his friends...who can't seem to HELP IT but go MISSING), not necessarily by duty. It's an "along the way" ordeal...
He could look the other way now, technically; he has Riku and Kairi back. But he won't. He knows what's right. He's doing it from the heart, not duty the other Keybladers are obliged to, "protecting the worlds and seven Princess of Heart" and all that. It's more...personal. His entire story is just personal, with every person/friend he meets and makes, it's personal to him. He bonds to them, and vice versa. His journeys are always personal.
I hold a lot more respect for him because of that.
Fun Thought to Consider: (Because this is something to think about)
Let's take a look at these strengths and stuff. ;D
Aqua has been given little to no room for expansion. (I dare you to find that room.)
She's already a Master, her personality and thought process locked in stone- as seen through the Birth by Sleep on several occassions. (She hates darkness, she still holds accusations towards Terra and that darkness, to name a reoccurence...hmmm...)
Sora still has room for growth, both in personality AND in combat.
He is not yet a Master (he may never be, we won't know for awhile, nyeh~), and he's been learning through actual hands-on experience. ;P
You cannot compare the two via ways of learning. One had a Master, the other is acting on hands-on learning and survival. That does not prove which one is better.
Now, if you're going to fight me via the way I see things, you'd better have actual evidence that can change my mind/disprove what I said, and I'll respectfully say I'm wrong. Otherwise my opinion stands: I hold way more respect and approval over Sora's character due to the fact over the reasons he's been doing everything he has been, and the overal personal feel everything he's gone through. He also has room for growth. Growth in itself allows the observer to watch and grow alongside what they're watching. Don't get me wrong, Aqua is in herself an interesting character and I hold both respect and aggravation for her awesome qualities and flaws, but I can't click to her and respect her like I can with other characters. :/ (Sora, Riku, Roxas, etc.)
Sora's heart is what I find admirable, and the bonds he and so many characters, both Disney, Final Fantasy, and original to the series itself share make it all the more special to me personally, and gives me more insight to the actual character presented to me.
That's the character I can approve and appreciate, even through his/her flaws. (He's quite snarky now, hm?)
I'm exhausted...bleck. x.x
(And Smile, holy crap your posts are inspiring, and well thought out!! <3 Had me thinking a lot while I was reading this thread...)
@Z3N wow....just wow XD
Now I choose Aqua because I think she is fun to play as but I do think Sora is the best main character
Now I choose Aqua because I think she is fun to play as but I do think Sora is the best main character
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;A; I love you so much for bringing this up. Truly, part of why Sora's better than a lot of characters is that very same conflict and dilemma they presented in KH1 - Sora never asked for any of this, but he's stuck with it because the Keyblade chose him (temporarily at first, and then permanently down the road). It gets worse the longer the story progresses - the people he cares for are no longer victims in their own right - Riku he locked with his own hands behind the DtD. Namine was used as a hostage against him BECAUSE of him. Kairi was kidnapped and he had to go save her. Hollow Bastion was swarmed by Heartless just so Sora'd be forced to use the Keyblade to slay them.
He's the key that connects everything - and everyone he cares for suffers because of something he was thrust into unwillingly.
A lot of people will call him a bland, under-developed character, but seeing how by the time he WAS happy-go-lucky, it was confirmed to be a show, I think the poor kid deserves a big hug and a pat on the back and us telling him it'll be alright ;A; And like you said, the fact that he keeps on going shows a great deal about his priorities - friends before anything else.
Not quite so the case with Aqua, for one.
Darkness.
Though I really doubt they'll go down that line, even though BBS halfway set it up for Aqua to become the other one travelling the Middle Road - it's just that she and Riku will be getting there from different directions.
Some might say Sora's better for that reason alone. I tend to agree. It's true that Aqua's had her share of development in BBS itself, but looking at how far Sora's gone from the start of KH1 to the end of KH2... he's gonna fight with teeth and nail to bring his opponents down. In that sense he's like a wild dog, whereas Aqua doesn't seem to be the type.
;A; I sense the inevitable forming of a wonderful friendship.
(I know this is Terra, not Aqua) but the description of the Lingering Sentiment in KH2FM had "he can master the keyblade's power much more than sora" and Terra and Aqua seemed evenly matched, so that's direct evidence right there that TAV was stronger. Also Braig "you're not half the heroes the others were" also points to the past keyblade wielders being more powerful(he fought both Terra and Aqua). I feel that we are often thrown off by KH2's overblown flashy gameplay, but the dialogue, as well as journal descriptions, point to past characters being more powerful than present ones.
Evidence to the contrary seems more based on his character "he didn't have formal training but he was still able to save the world!" keep in mind that he had the assistance of donald and goofy against Ansem SoD, who was half of MX with amnesia, and the assistance of Riku against Xemnas(who would have killed Sora with his "can you spare a heart?" move) who is Terranorts leftover shell.
I'll call bullshit on the Aqua-Terranort fight though. I can understand her winning, being justified by the fact that it was Terra AND Aqua fighting Xehanort (you can even go in his heart IN battle and see Terra and do a dual limit technique to damage him).
But the fact that she didn't so much as seem tired or have a scratch on her after fighting him? Xena-warrior-princess moment right there.
Terranort is the result of a man with decades upon decades of experience with dark powers, in the body of a young, strong man in his prime youth. That's like a war general having the knowledge he has now in the body he had when he was 20.
It doesn't matter how much of a star private first-class you are, that general should kick the shits out of you.
Evidence to the contrary seems more based on his character "he didn't have formal training but he was still able to save the world!" keep in mind that he had the assistance of donald and goofy against Ansem SoD, who was half of MX with amnesia, and the assistance of Riku against Xemnas(who would have killed Sora with his "can you spare a heart?" move) who is Terranorts leftover shell.
I'll call bullshit on the Aqua-Terranort fight though. I can understand her winning, being justified by the fact that it was Terra AND Aqua fighting Xehanort (you can even go in his heart IN battle and see Terra and do a dual limit technique to damage him).
But the fact that she didn't so much as seem tired or have a scratch on her after fighting him? Xena-warrior-princess moment right there.
Terranort is the result of a man with decades upon decades of experience with dark powers, in the body of a young, strong man in his prime youth. That's like a war general having the knowledge he has now in the body he had when he was 20.
It doesn't matter how much of a star private first-class you are, that general should kick the shits out of you.
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I wonder. I agree that Sora's a novice as far as truly utilizing the Keyblade's powers go (hell, he needs the help of a Drive Form even for the sake of magic to better use it...) and skills are just as important as strength if not more, but Sora has strength in abundance. And with him being both strong, fast, AND good at magic, he has the potential to take down Terra and Aqua. Strength is only good if you can land a hit, something Terra (not LS, mind - I still consider most of that fight to be non-canon and only take to heart what made it into BBS - being that the Gliders are not part of their combat methods, and that it takes a while to charge their Ultimate Abilities, time Sora can use wisely) might not be able to do. As for Aqua, Ven himself had more physical attributes than she did if in-game stats are any indication (I mean it. Had to level the girl up twice as much to survive the blows Terra and Ven managed at a lower level) AND he has some magic of his own. He'll be able to put up a damn good fight, and that's before we get to the part where it depends on what kind of a battle they'll have. Terra and Aqua were deemed equals by Eraqus in a fight Aqua didn't use her magic in. That is not to say she's stronger since relying on magic might've let Terra act accordingly (they HAVE known each other for years), and along the way Terra got his Darkness so that's a whole new ball game. But I am saying that she might not use her magic against Sora either - putting her in quite a disadvantage imo.
I never knew that o.o I was over-leveled so the fight was a joke. If that's the case it confirms what I thought up to now, and that the Aqua-Terranort fight is the same as with Aqua-Venitas - she was basically the plot device to take them down from the outside (seeing how I have to wonder if she'd have lived through either fight without her friends helping her from within).
unless it's to make a plot point or something along those lines, like Riku getting his arse kicked by Darkness in R-R, Sora being a newbie at the start of KH1, or Riku taking a direct plot blow against Xemnas, they don't usually seem to be tired or wounded, iirc. One of the lone exceptions in regards to fatigue is the KH2 Hollow Bastion but they were literally fighting thousands of Heartless there. It more than adds up, because they bothered with the plot for that.
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