News ► SPOILERS Kingdom Hearts X[chi] - Meeting Skuld

[Hirokey123]

Honestly I don't think we have a shred of reason to believe the foretellers are "good" anymore than Eraqus and Xehanort view themselves as being "good". In fact for the history that has been repeated to us multiple times to be true the either the foretellers or the Master of Masters must actually be evil. Why? Because one of the things that has never changed about this tale is that we've been repeatedly told the keyblade was forged specifically to conquer the light, it was forged out of people's greed. Those who used it to defend the light came after people who were using the keyblade to conquer the light were already running around. That doesn't mean the bad guys were really bad though. Eraqus absolutely was a villain of BBS he is the source of nearly all of TAV's conflict and his death is appropriate and just, setting him up for a proper redemption arc or bringing his story to a fitting end. But at his core Eraqus was a good person heck Riku in KH1 for as twisted and messed up as he was wasn't really a bad person and look at the apprentices/org most of them weren't bad people either, they were just mislead by some pretty nasty villains then twisted by circumstance.

In fact it's extremely odd that only the seemingly dark and ominous Nightmare Chirithy (Not the foretellers) is acknowledging that lux is the source of the fighting and strife that is being bred between wielders/unions. And then there is Ava's line about how she is trusting children who are not connected to unions with the future. There is just....a lot to tells us that whatever is going on isn't right.

On the subject of clones I've been reading a lot of homestuck lately and I think it's made me okay with the foretellers being clones in some capacity. I mean think about it like this we have a LOT of clones but we've never had a true clones, the closest we had was repliku. But you know I've been thinking about what if the point of these foretellers is to have true direct clones of Kairi, Riku, Terra, Aqua, and Ventus so we can see how they would act in a totally different situation/life. Specifically see how they would hold together facing a crisis without Sora. Sora's absence seems to be IMO the oddest thing about this foreteller group that's why I think maybe this whole story might just be another way to compound how necessary Sora is. To show that without Sora, without a regular kid with a good empathetic heart, how his special friends fall apart without him and they bring the end of the ancient world. Which then parallels to KH3 where with Sora's help, with Sora being the difference, him and his friends save the present world. Though this is more just ramblings of a theory at this point.

 

[Seighart]

Honestly I don't think we have a shred of reason to believe the foretellers are "good" anymore than Eraqus and Xehanort view themselves as being "good". In fact for the history that has been repeated to us multiple times to be true the either the foretellers or the Master of Masters must actually be evil. Why? Because one of the things that has never changed about this tale is that we've been repeatedly told the keyblade was forged specifically to conquer the light, it was forged out of people's greed. Those who used it to defend the light came after people who were using the keyblade to conquer the light were already running around. That doesn't mean the bad guys were really bad though. Eraqus absolutely was a villain of BBS he is the source of nearly all of TAV's conflict and his death is appropriate and just, setting him up for a proper redemption arc or bringing his story to a fitting end. But at his core Eraqus was a good person heck Riku in KH1 for as twisted and messed up as he was wasn't really a bad person and look at the apprentices/org most of them weren't bad people either, they were just mislead by some pretty nasty villains then twisted by circumstance.

In fact it's extremely odd that only the seemingly dark and ominous Nightmare Chirithy (Not the foretellers) is acknowledging that lux is the source of the fighting and strife that is being bred between wielders/unions. And then there is Ava's line about how she is trusting children who are not connected to unions with the future. There is just....a lot to tells us that whatever is going on isn't right.

On the subject of clones I've been reading a lot of homestuck lately and I think it's made me okay with the foretellers being clones in some capacity. I mean think about it like this we have a LOT of clones but we've never had a true clones, the closest we had was repliku. But you know I've been thinking about what if the point of these foretellers is to have true direct clones of Kairi, Riku, Terra, Aqua, and Ventus so we can see how they would act in a totally different situation/life. Specifically see how they would hold together facing a crisis without Sora. Sora's absence seems to be IMO the oddest thing about this foreteller group that's why I think maybe this whole story might just be another way to compound how necessary Sora is. To show that without Sora, without a regular kid with a good empathetic heart, how his special friends fall apart without him and they bring the end of the ancient world. Which then parallels to KH3 where with Sora's help, with Sora being the difference, him and his friends save the present world. Though this is more just ramblings of a theory at this point.

At that point, i'd believe Player in KHX is Sora. They would fulfil the same roll and bring all of this full circle.

 

[Alpha Baymax]

Honestly I don't think we have a shred of reason to believe the foretellers are "good" anymore than Eraqus and Xehanort view themselves as being "good". In fact for the history that has been repeated to us multiple times to be true the either the foretellers or the Master of Masters must actually be evil. Why? Because one of the things that has never changed about this tale is that we've been repeatedly told the keyblade was forged specifically to conquer the light, it was forged out of people's greed. Those who used it to defend the light came after people who were using the keyblade to conquer the light were already running around. That doesn't mean the bad guys were really bad though. Eraqus absolutely was a villain of BBS he is the source of nearly all of TAV's conflict and his death is appropriate and just, setting him up for a proper redemption arc or bringing his story to a fitting end. But at his core Eraqus was a good person heck Riku in KH1 for as twisted and messed up as he was wasn't really a bad person and look at the apprentices/org most of them weren't bad people either, they were just mislead by some pretty nasty villains then twisted by circumstance.

In fact it's extremely odd that only the seemingly dark and ominous Nightmare Chirithy (Not the foretellers) is acknowledging that lux is the source of the fighting and strife that is being bred between wielders/unions. And then there is Ava's line about how she is trusting children who are not connected to unions with the future. There is just....a lot to tells us that whatever is going on isn't right.

On the subject of clones I've been reading a lot of homestuck lately and I think it's made me okay with the foretellers being clones in some capacity. I mean think about it like this we have a LOT of clones but we've never had a true clones, the closest we had was repliku. But you know I've been thinking about what if the point of these foretellers is to have true direct clones of Kairi, Riku, Terra, Aqua, and Ventus so we can see how they would act in a totally different situation/life. Specifically see how they would hold together facing a crisis without Sora. Sora's absence seems to be IMO the oddest thing about this foreteller group that's why I think maybe this whole story might just be another way to compound how necessary Sora is. To show that without Sora, without a regular kid with a good empathetic heart, how his special friends fall apart without him and they bring the end of the ancient world. Which then parallels to KH3 where with Sora's help, with Sora being the difference, him and his friends save the present world. Though this is more just ramblings of a theory at this point.

As opposed to clones, here's what I think the Foretellers are...

Remember how in the introduction of Kingdom Hearts X, the Master of Master's gave five of the six Foreteller's new names? well, what were their original names? aside Ava, we do not know what their original names were. I have a theory that has figured it all out.


The Master of Master used The Book of Prophecies to summon projections of Riku, Kairi, Terra, Ventus and Aqua. He then rebranded the names of these projected version of our heroes to be called Unicornis, Vulpeus, Ursus, Leopardos and Anguis respectively and made them Foretellers to serve under him. Essentially, the Foretellers are like nobodies in the context that they do not exist, however, they've diverged so far away from their original identity that they've molded new and original identites.


This theory inevitably has two key issues that I'll answer right away.


1) If Ava was Kairi summoned from the Book of Prophecies, why is she called Ava?


Well, as a projection, we do not know how much memory these summons retain from their original versions. Because of this, the summoner of the projections could have the ability to manipulate their memory to their liking. In Kingdom Hearts X, the medal/cards projections are summoned temporarily as an assist in battle. What happens if they're summoned for permanent means?


We know that the Disney worlds and all the inhabitants of the Disney worlds are projections from Daybreak Town, however, they're projections by a world. The medals/cards are not projections from Daybreak Town as the player has access to them at will...


2) What about the pupil that did not end up becoming a Foreteller? who in the world is that person?


Well, my prediction is that the foreteller that was not chosen was an original character. But why? surely a projected version of Sora or Lea could have worked right? well, you see, we know nothing about the Master... why create factions to obtain Lux? division is the last thing you want to go through with if you want to collectively gain light. I believe that the original character was not chosen as a Foreteller because he had too much "sense of self" in order to really assimilate to the bidding of the Masters of Masters. The Master of Masters wanted to conduct the Keyblade War in order to recreate the world in his image.


In layman terms, the Master of Masters is the influence that got Xehanort into the mindset of reincarnating the Keyblade War and obtaining vessels to create Kingdom Hearts in his image!

If there's any further loopholes or inconsistencies with my theory, Here's some more details to my theory...


1) The Foretellers existed by being re-branded from their original identities to have new identities (like how Xemnas rebranded the nobodies of Roxas/Radiant Garden characters). Think of the Foretellers as permanent medal/card projections that have a distinguishable sense of self (like Roxas. He's Sora's nobody but he has more than enough to maintain his own identity).


2) Riku, Kairi, Ventus, Terra and Aqua still exist. They're entirely human and real. The one's that don't "truly exist" are Unicornis, Vulpeus, Leopardos, Ursus and Anguis respectively, because, they're the medal/card projections of our heroes summoned from The Book of Prophecies.


3) The heroes of the future and the Foretellers of the past do not "directly affect eachother". This is why this theory is not the "reincarnation theory". If the Master of Masters never hypothetically used the Book of Prophecies to summon projections of our heroes to be Foretellers then our heroes would have still existed. Remember how Mickey, Donald and Goofy were in KHX yet they're not linked with the Disney trio in any way? That's what the Foretellers are.

 

[Ballad of Caius]

So what you're saying is that the Foretellers are like a sort of "Xehanorganization", under the command of the Master of Masters? Sounds something like that because MX and the Master both want to create a group of in order to get the light: Kingdom Hearts.

 

[Alpha Baymax]

So what you're saying is that the Foretellers are like a sort of "Xehanorganization", under the command of the Master of Masters? Sounds something like that because MX and the Master both want to create a group of in order to get the light: Kingdom Hearts.

BINGO: That's exactly what I'm speculating!

 

[Ballad of Caius]

BINGO: That's exactly what I'm speculating!

Now that's... interesting. But wouldn't Master Xehanort be the reincarnated version of the Master of Masters? If so, then who could be the reincarnation of the sixth apprentice? Sora?

 

[Alpha Baymax]

Now that's... interesting. But wouldn't Master Xehanort be the reincarnated version of the Master of Masters? If so, then who could be the reincarnation of the sixth apprentice? Sora?

Not really, no. My theory isn't reincarnation. The Masters of Masters and Sixth Foreteller are entirely original characters with no ties.

Basically this is how I envision the foretellers
A Riku conjured from the Book of Prophecies --> Memories Manipulated --> Renamed and Rebranded --> Unicornis
A Kairi conjured from the Book of Prophecies --> Memories Manipulated --> Renamed and Rebranded --> Vulpes
A Terra conjured from the Book of Prophecies --> Memories Manipulated --> Renamed and Rebranded --> Ursus
A Aqua conjured from the Book of Prophecies --> Memories Manipulated --> Renamed and Rebranded --> Anguis
A Ventus conjured from the Book of Prophecies --> Memories Manipulated --> Renamed and Rebranded --> Leopardos

 

[Ballad of Caius]

Not really, no. My theory isn't reincarnation. The Masters of Masters and Sixth Foreteller are entirely original characters with no ties.

Basically this is how I envision the foretellers
A Riku conjured from the Book of Prophecies --> Memories Manipulated --> Renamed and Rebranded --> Unicornis
A Kairi conjured from the Book of Prophecies --> Memories Manipulated --> Renamed and Rebranded --> Vulpes
A Terra conjured from the Book of Prophecies --> Memories Manipulated --> Renamed and Rebranded --> Ursus
A Aqua conjured from the Book of Prophecies --> Memories Manipulated --> Renamed and Rebranded --> Anguis
A Ventus conjured from the Book of Prophecies --> Memories Manipulated --> Renamed and Rebranded --> Leopardos

So instead of being clones like Repliku and Xion, they're actual people that had identities prior to their transformation?

 

[Alpha Baymax]

So instead of being clones like Repliku and Xion, they're actual people that had identities prior to their transformation?

Not actual people, "projections" of actual people formed by The Book of Prophecies, remember, The Book of Prophecies can conjure up beings (imagine them like data versions from Re:Coded).

 

[Hirokey123]

Honestly I don't think we have any reason to believe Ava is actually her true name. The Master of Masters has intentionally gone out of the way to hide their identity including giving them new names so we've every reason to believe Ava is the name she was given, not that name she started out with. Especially since random wielders know Ava's name as Ava, wouldn't be a very good hidden identity if everyone just knew her true name. They've never to my knowledge actually said the union names were the new names given. I think the union names are just that, union names. Which is to say those particular names are no different than the other group names in the series like Organization XIII, Seekers of Darkness, Guardians of Light, etc... So as a comparison...

Ienzo>renamed Zexion>help forms the Organization
Kairi>renamed Ava>forms the Vulpeus Union

As for the rest I had a theory like that but then someone poked a pretty big hole into it I couldn't quite find a good way to work around. It was something along the lines of "why bother summoning Riku, Kairi, Terra, Aqua, and Ventus from the book to turn them into foretellers when they could have just summoned the foretellers themselves from the book". Which was a pretty good point...I mean what exactly are the benefits to summoning copies of wielders to manipulate when they could of just skipped the busy work entirely and jumped straight to the end product?

 

[Alpha Baymax]

Honestly I don't think we have any reason to believe Ava is actually her true name. The Master of Masters has intentionally gone out of the way to hide their identity including giving them new names so we've every reason to believe Ava is the name she was given, not that name she started out with. Especially since random wielders know Ava's name as Ava, wouldn't be a very good hidden identity if everyone just knew her true name. They've never to my knowledge actually said the union names were the new names given. I think the union names are just that, union names. Which is to say those particular names are no different than the other group names in the series like Organization XIII, Seekers of Darkness, Guardians of Light, etc... So as a comparison...

Ienzo>renamed Zexion>help forms the Organization
Kairi>renamed Ava>forms the Vulpeus Union

As for the rest I had a theory like that but then someone poked a pretty big hole into it I couldn't quite find a good way to work around. It was something along the lines of "why bother summoning Riku, Kairi, Terra, Aqua, and Ventus from the book to turn them into foretellers when they could have just summoned the foretellers themselves from the book". Which was a pretty good point...I mean what exactly are the benefits to summoning copies of wielders to manipulate when they could of just skipped the busy work entirely and jumped straight to the end product?

That's a surprisingly easy loophole to solve, the Master of Masters needed to better understand what he was conjuring up in order to execute his plan intricately. By default, Riku, Kairi, Ventus, Terra and Aqua exist beyond the foretold Keyblade War whilst the “lost masters” are foretold to perish. For someone who has foresight to the future, the Keyblade wielders that exist beyond the Keyblade War would be more of a benefit for The Master of Master. However, The Master of Master would not be aware that the projected heroes end up becoming the “lost masters”. The Book of Prophecies only conjures up beings, it doesn’t give a detailed profile of who they are (or at least, there’s nothing in KHX lore that states so), therefore, that loophole is solved.


In layman terms, Master of Master would rather summon projections of Riku, Kairi, Ventus, Terra and Aqua because they exist beyond the Keyblade War and the “lost masters” do not. Unaware, the Masters of Master does not realise that the summoned projections of our heroes trained under the Master end up becoming the “lost masters”.

 

[Hirokey123]

But the book actually has a prophecy in it about the foretellers themselves, about one of them betraying one another...so there should be an entry of them that can be summoned forth. So the question remains he knows there is an entry about the foretellers he trained betraying one another, the foretellers know this as well because it's a big point of contention. So he could of just summoned the foretellers from those entries instead getting the final product without the busy work. That's why there has to be a reason he wouldn't do it and would instead go the long route with them, and I could never come up with a way that made sense beyond a stable time loop thing.

 

[Alpha Baymax]

But the book actually has a prophecy in it about the foretellers themselves, about one of them betraying one another...so there should be an entry of them that can be summoned forth. So the question remains he knows there is an entry about the foretellers he trained betraying one another, the foretellers know this as well because it's a big point of contention. So he could of just summoned the foretellers from those entries instead getting the final product without the busy work. That's why there has to be a reason he wouldn't do it and would instead go the long route with them, and I could never come up with a way that made sense beyond a stable time loop thing.

The Master of Masters presumably wanted this inevitable conflict to occur for the sake of having Kingdom Hearts be revealed to him. The Master of Master intentionally gave the Foreteller's this tome. It wasn't necessary but he did it anyway in order for the Foreteller's to doubt each other. This would inevitably cause conflict which would spiral into the Keyblade War. As far as "the point in time in which the projections were summoned" is concerned, remember, in the Kingdom Hearts series, any being that has its memories manipulated from birth, the being is fairly unresponsive at first (Roxas, Replica Riku, Xion). The Master of Master probably didn't want to go through that hassle too late in the process so he selected them at a more malleable stage.

 

[ShardofTruth]

I think to argue what the book of prophecies actually can and can't do, when we don't know how it works in the first place, is moot. I don't think it's some kind of creation machine nor that it can create anything you wish for (get Genie's lamp instead) since it's tied to the future that is (seemingly) destined to happen.

According to Ephemera the stuff conjured are actually illusions, maybe they can be become "real" (by growing a heart), maybe they can't. Illusions can still be used to influence people and that's happening on a grand scale and on multiple levels in [chi].

Then again, what's real and what isn't can also be debated in the Kingdom hearts Universe. I'm still unsure of datascape Sora can become a different meatspace Sora or not.

 

[Alpha Baymax]

I think to argue what the book of prophecies actually can and can't do, when we don't know how it works in the first place, is moot. I don't think it's some kind of creation machine nor that it can create anything you wish for (get Genie's lamp instead) since it's tied to the future that is (seemingly) destined to happen.

According to Ephemera the stuff conjured are actually illusions, maybe they can be become "real" (by growing a heart), maybe they can't. Illusions can still be used to influence people and that's happening on a grand scale and on multiple levels in [chi].

Then again, what's real and what isn't can also be debated in the Kingdom hearts Universe. I'm still unsure of datascape Sora can become a different meatspace Sora or not.

I dunno, the fact that the Disney worlds are projections from Daybreak Town kind of implies that The Book of Prophecies is indeed a Genie-esque type of device, besides, you remember this scene? Maleficent flat out states what The Book of Prophecies is capable of...

[video=youtube;wLMoa5-yI28]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLMoa5-yI28[/video]

 

[Hirokey123]

Wait there we go maybe that's why the Foretellers weren't taken from their entries. Maybe they needed hearts, real hearts, and heart growth takes time. He needed foretellers with hearts shaped by the experiences of whatever training/teaching he had to give and thus choose to use an earlier entry of them, when they were Riku/Kairi/Terra/Aqua/Ventus, and mold them from there. Because then even if he could just kind of take the end product foreteller from their later entry they would still just be shells devoid of a true heart.

 

[Alpha Baymax]

Wait there we go maybe that's why the Foretellers weren't taken from their entries. Maybe they needed hearts, real hearts, and heart growth takes time. He needed foretellers with hearts shaped by the experiences of whatever training/teaching he had to give and thus choose to use an earlier entry of them, when they were Riku/Kairi/Terra/Aqua/Ventus, and mold them from there. Because then even if he could just kind of take the end product foreteller from their later entry they would still just be shells devoid of a true heart.

But then that's make them nobodies (which I highly doubt they are). As of right now, we really do not know how exact a being from The Book of Prophecies is from their original counterpart. I suppose that there would be a catch in summoning something from The Book of Prophecies, e.g, summoning Disney worlds means that they will follow the path destined for them (recreating the original Disney movie), or if a being is summoned, they are only summoned temporarily to prevent time loopholes.

 

[Hirokey123]

Not Nobodies it would make them the same thing Data Sora and all our little data copies from the journal are. Empty shells made from memories stored inside of a book taking a physical form.....but yes fundamentally that does make them like Nobodies. That's kind of the point Coded makes about Data Sora what with Pete emphasizing he is just an empty lump of data who can't really feel anything, just a construct they made a being without a heart.