Unbirth quick thought

[Genocide]

Pinwheel is wrong.
Souls =/= Unbirth

This theory was disproven long ago back when people were making "Dis-soul' theories.

 

[Happy Chap]

Soul =/= Unbirth
Soul+? = Unbirth?...
If the life dies when the soul leaves the H+B, what happens to it? Where does it come from to join the H+B and be born?
Heart= Heartless
Body= ?
Soul= ?
Body+Soul= Nobody
Body+Heart= Death
Heart+Soul= ? (wait, life without physical existance? :/)

 

[keybladelegacy]

But Unbirth =/= Soul.
Otherwise, they'd not be extinct.

unbirth is not the soul maybe

Pinwheel is wrong.
Souls =/= Unbirth

This theory was disproven long ago back when people were making "Dis-soul' theories.

The soul could be the unbirths.
Soul equal life, birth
Soul leaves the body death, unbirth

Soul (=) Unbirth
Soul+? = Unbirth?...
If the life dies when the soul leaves the H+B, what happens to it? Where does it come from to join the H+B and be born?
Heart= Heartless
Body= without the soul perish
Soul= Possibly "unbirths"
Body+Soul= Nobody
Body+Heart= Death
Heart+Soul= ? also think this could form an unbirth

fixd

 

[Happy Chap]

heh heh you changed one and turned the rest into unbirth ideas, i like the last one the best

 

[Genocide]

The soul could be the unbirths.
Soul equal life, birth
Soul leaves the body death, unbirth

1. Death =/= Unbirth. They are completely different things.
2. They'd not be extinct if it was as simple as the soul.
3. Heart would die as well, there'd be no Heart+Soul.
4. Unbirths are not a naturally occuring process as the heartless are. They can't reproduce like the heartless. They were created from some other remnants of a person.
5. Don't be a Yannis. Death does not equate to Unbith. The opposite of Birth isn't death, Life is the opposite of death. death does not factor into the Unbirth equation.

You're wrong. the Unbirths are not Souls.
the idea of a soul enemy has been disproven long before you joined.

 

[keybladelegacy]

Here he goes again.

1. Death = Unbirth.
2. They'd not be extinct if it was as simple as the soul unless the events of bbs changes this.
3. Heart would die as well, there'd be no Heart+Soul unless the heart and soul create a vessel to hold themselves.
4. Unbirths are not a naturally occuring process as the heartless are. They can't reproduce like the heartless because souls dont pop out of nowhere so i guess they dont reproduce.

fixed...

5. Don't be a Yannis. Death does not equate to Unbith. The opposite of Birth isn't death, Life is the opposite of death. death does not factor into the Unbirth equation.

Born,Life=Unborn,Death.

You're wrong. the Unbirths are not Souls.

Clearly your not right.

the idea of a soul enemy has been disproven long before you joined.

Oooh looks like im going to try to prove it.

 

[GlaXen]

i like your theory, but i think it may fit better if we realize that Dead is NOT to be unborn; Dead is the last step, just after bein alive, so... i think that unbirths are just the souls before they are attached to a body (and a heart), that would explain why unbirths are not created when someone dies and that wont oppose to your theory of what happened to them.
when someone dies it is because the soul ceaset to exist too.

 

[keybladelegacy]

i like your theory, but i think it may fit better if we realize that Dead is NOT to be unborn;

If you see it as un = opposite and the opposite of born is death than its pretty much going to stay the same to me.
Even the title screams death.

Birth by Sleep, Sleep referring to death and something is being born after death.

Dead is the last step, just after bein alive, so... i think that unbirths are just the souls before they are attached to a body (and a heart), that would explain why unbirths are not created when someone dies and that wont oppose to your theory of what happened to them.
when someone dies it is because the soul ceaset to exist too.

When someone dies the body cease to exist.
And the soul is life. I would say the soul would indicate a birth but a soul leaving a body would create death. Even so your idea still doesnt explain why they cease to exist.

 

[Genocide]

Here he goes again.

And there you go again spreading your souls = Unbirths propaganda again despite the fact that you're clearly wrong.

fixed...

Why fix what wasn't broken.

Born,Life=Unborn,Death.

No, Unborn would equate to Pre life. You're talking about death, a process that comes after life. Thus, by your own chicanery, you're wrong.

Clearly your not right.

Except that I am, and I proved I was using your own "logic"

Oooh looks like im going to try to prove it.

You already did through semantics only to find out that if your theory is indeed correct that Unbirths wouldn't be extinct.

 

[Happy Chap]

Can't they reproduce? It would make it alot easier to explain if they could... they were simply exterminated by people.

 

[keybladelegacy]

Can't they reproduce? It would make it alot easier to explain if they could... they were simply exterminated by people.

If they were the soul then they couldnt reproduce because the soul is acquired during birth.

And there you go again spreading your souls = Unbirths propaganda again despite the fact that you're clearly wrong.

How in the world am i wrong.

Why fix what wasn't broken.

Well you have yet to prove me wrong.

No, Unborn would equate to Pre life. You're talking about death, a process that comes after life. Thus, by your own chicanery, you're wrong.

To Un born to take away, to stop,undo. To undo a birth is death.

Except that I am, and I proved I was using your own "logic"

Cant you say its possible.

You already did through semantics only to find out that if your theory is indeed correct that Unbirths wouldn't be extinct.

Although i dont know how they would be extinct doesnt mean im not right.

 

[Genocide]

If they were the soul then they couldnt reproduce because the soul is acquired during birth.

We don't know at what point the fetus obtains a soul, but that is an irrelevant point.

How in the world am i wrong.

1. Just by being you.
2. By not being me.
3. you're saying that Souls = Unbirths.

Well you have yet to prove me wrong.

I have, but you have yet to accept it.

To Un born to take away, to stop,undo. To undo a birth is death.

Nooooooo, to undo a birth is a pre-life. A stage before birth. Undo means to take away something previous. To undo a birth would result in a life form existing before a baby.

The Soul splits from the body and goes to Olympus Coliseum. there, the soul rests for all eternity.

Cant you say its possible.

I could, but I'd be lying.

Although i dont know how they would be extinct doesnt mean im not right.

Actually, that would.

IF in the completely hypothetical situation that the Unbirths were in fact souls, there would still be Unbirths around now. But as we can clearly see, there are no Unbirths.

And judging by how there is no Unbirths left, that proves that Unbirths can't corrupt people into becoming Unbirths like Heatless can. They don't reproduce themselves, otherwise, they'd not be extinct.

That leaves only one option; they are artificially created. They were not given the ability to corrupt/reproduce as the heartless. More than likely, they were created by Master Xehanort. And since he's dead/fusion'd/whatever, there is no way for anyone without the knowledge to create them, to do so.

Now if Xehanort regained Master Xehanort's memories, I don't doubt for a second that we could POSSIBLY see Unbirths, but that's still a long way off.

See, people still die. Not everyone goes on to become a heartless/nobody.

And if they die, that means the soul is removed from their body.

Thus, that'd result in an Unbirth, but as I've said before, Unbirths aren't a natural process as the Heartless have become.

Unbirths are extinct. They aren't the souls. They can't be the souls because they'd not have gone extinct in the first place.

Kingdom Hearts is an abstract game. For the Unbirths to be something as simple as the soul, would break the abstract pattern.

Furthermore, the Unbirth are predecessors to Heartless AND Nobody. If they were only the Soul, there'd be no connection to the Heartless. Besides, there's been an enemy to use the Soul; the Nobodies.

 

[keybladelegacy]

Finally, now where getting somewhere.

We don't know at what point the fetus obtains a soul, but that is an irrelevant point.

Im assuming.

1. Just by being you.

Nice point.(sarcastic)

2. By not being me.

I knew i shouldve study.(sarcastic)

3. you're saying that Souls = Unbirths.

Hmm...I still think im right.

I have, but you have yet to accept it.

If you say so.

Nooooooo, to undo a birth is a pre-life. A stage before birth. Undo means to take away something previous. To undo a birth would result in a life form existing before a baby.

Unless you cant reverse a birth but if death accords then it is as if your taking the life from the person by taking the one thing that gives life or birth. Birth, the soul is given. Death the soul is taken. So to undo a birth is to take the soul back.

The Soul splits from the body and goes to Olympus Coliseum. there, the soul rests for all eternity.

Maybe just the souls from that world.

I could, but I'd be lying.

Well i dont want you to be a liar.

Actually, that would.

Actually no because of the lack of info.

IF in the completely hypothetical situation that the Unbirths were in fact souls, there would still be Unbirths around now. But as we can clearly see, there are no Unbirths.

Depending on the process that the soul goes through to become a unbirth is in question. Maybe the process is changed because of the events in BBS which stops the unbirths from being recreated.

And judging by how there is no Unbirths left, that proves that Unbirths can't corrupt people into becoming Unbirths like Heatless can. They don't reproduce themselves, otherwise, they'd not be extinct.

I agree they dont reproduce if they were to be the soul.

That leaves only one option; they are artificially created. They were not given the ability to corrupt/reproduce as the heartless. More than likely, they were created by Master Xehanort. And since he's dead/fusion'd/whatever, there is no way for anyone without the knowledge to create them, to do so.

Could be one way but i still say it has something to do with the soul. Since BBS seems to have death in it.

Now if Xehanort regained Master Xehanort's memories, I don't doubt for a second that we could POSSIBLY see Unbirths, but that's still a long way off.

Okay.

See, people still die. Not everyone goes on to become a heartless/nobody.

And if they die, that means the soul is removed from their body.

I know...

Thus, that'd result in an Unbirth, but as I've said before, Unbirths aren't a natural process as the Heartless have become.

Um...Lets see (Where heartless in BBS) NO (Where their darkness within peoples heart)YES
So their could be a way unbirths are a natural process.

Unbirths are extinct. They aren't the souls. They can't be the souls because they'd not have gone extinct in the first place.

Their is always an exception which has been proven multiple times in KH.

Kingdom Hearts is an abstract game. For the Unbirths to be something as simple as the soul, would break the abstract pattern.

The process wouldnt break it. Besides the heartless was the heart it was simple that the nobody was the body and soul.

Furthermore, the Unbirth are predecessors to Heartless AND Nobody. If they were only the Soul, there'd be no connection to the Heartless. Besides, there's been an enemy to use the Soul; the Nobodies.

Not if the unbirths are wild and the heartless attack on instinct.

 

[Genocide]

Hmm...I still think im right.

Most wrong people do.

Unless you cant reverse a birth but if death accords then it is as if your taking the life from the person by taking the one thing that gives life or birth. Birth, the soul is given. Death the soul is taken. So to undo a birth is to take the soul back.

That's what you were saying. To be Unborn would be reversing Birth.
Doesn't matter though; Unborn and Unbirth are two different things.

And again, the soul, along with memories, are not strong enough to hold form. Otherwise, we'd have seen it already. It seems you're still not understanding what I'm saying.

Undoing a birth would not result in death, it'd result in pre life. Now the taking of a soul AFTER birth would result in death, but that's not undoing birth. That's ending life.

Maybe just the souls from that world

And that'd leave billions of souls without a final resting place. That is of course IF there's no heaven or hell. Where would dead people go after they die? They don't take up lives of their own.

Well i dont want you to be a liar.

Well take your false propaganda elsewhere.

Actually no because of the lack of info.

Actually yes. The Unbirths are extinct.

Depending on the process that the soul goes through to become a unbirth is in question. Maybe the process is changed because of the events in BBS which stops the unbirths from being recreated.

Of which would have been a forced process. Dead people wouldn't become Unbirths. Dead and Unbirth do NOT mean the same thing.

Could be one way but i still say it has something to do with the soul. Since BBS seems to have death in it.

Yes, BBS does involve death, but to make death a major theme?
You're just stretching.

Um...Lets see (Where heartless in BBS) NO (Where their darkness within peoples heart)YES
So their could be a way unbirths are a natural process.

No, because if it were, then there'd still be Unbirth.
And Heartless are natural NOW. I severely think you misunderstand me now.

Their is always an exception which has been proven multiple times in KH.

Let's say that you are right

That they were a natural part of life; death.
MX took advantage of this and found a way for the dead to do his bidding.
Then MX defeated himself [because TAV can't do it]

Then where are the Unbirths?
If Unbirths are a natural part of life, then where are they?
I mean, if they are the starting point for heartless and nobodies, then why did they end?

The process wouldnt break it. Besides the heartless was the heart it was simple that the nobody was the body and soul.

Again, you miss my point.
An entity solely of heart + darkness. Abstract.
An entity of a body + soul. Abstract.
An entity comprised completely of soul. Not Abstract.

Aside from the fact that it's already used in the cosmology, the soul is not a corporeal entity like the heart and shell.

The soul is a non corporeal energy powering the body. There's a reason why it's never come up before. Because it's not important. The soul only gives life to which it clings to. It can't take a form of it's own because all it does is sustain life.

The soul by itself is not abstract. It's plain. A heart is abstract. A body and soul is abstract, but to a lesser extent than just a heart.

And still, you're mistaking life for Birth. Life and Birth are not the same thing.
Birth is the process after Pre-life and before Life. Life and Birth are two different things. Besides, the game is called "Birth by Sleep" not "Life by Death." The latter being the concept you're trying to sell.

Yes, death will occur in BBS.
Will it be a major theme? Don't be silly.

Not if the unbirths are wild and the heartless attack on instinct.

No. That's stupid.
They have a larger connection than how they act. Take off the Yannis cloak and not be so stu-
THANK YOU AND GOOD NIGHT!

 

[keybladelegacy]

Most wrong people do.

"shrug"

That's what you were saying. To be Unborn would be reversing Birth.
Doesn't matter though; Unborn and Unbirth are two different things.

But you cant reverse a birth they only way to take the soul back is through death.

And again, the soul, along with memories, are not strong enough to hold form. Otherwise, we'd have seen it already.

Their extinct even so like i said something in bbs screwed up the process.

It seems you're still not understanding what I'm saying.

I was thinking the same thing.

Undoing a birth would not result in death, it'd result in pre life.

But you cant take the develop of the body back but if death occurs then the soul is taken back.

Now the taking of a soul AFTER birth would result in death, but that's not undoing birth. That's ending life.

Still borns. Are babies that die during birth. So birth occurs then death, undoing the birth.

And that'd leave billions of souls without a final resting place. That is of course IF there's no heaven or hell. Where would dead people go after they die? They don't take up lives of their own.

Thats like saying where do souls come from.

Well take your false propaganda elsewhere.

Take your own advice.

Actually yes. The Unbirths are extinct.

Of course their extinct because of the events in bbs.

Of which would have been a forced process. Dead people wouldn't become Unbirths. Dead and Unbirth do NOT mean the same thing.

They dont have to mean the same thing they just have to relate to each other.

Yes, BBS does involve death, but to make death a major theme?
You're just stretching.

Well if death is involved with the unbirth then yes.

No, because if it were, then there'd still be Unbirth.

Ive already explained this,

And Heartless are natural NOW.

Now they are but werent back then. Because of the UNBIRTHS.

I severely think you misunderstand me now.

You have no idea.

Let's say that you are right

:lol:

That they were a natural part of life; death.
MX took advantage of this and found a way for the dead to do his bidding.
Then MX defeated himself [because TAV can't do it]

Okay...

Then where are the Unbirths?If Unbirths are a natural part of life, then where are they?

If MX had them to do their bidding they had no reason to exist.

I mean, if they are the starting point for heartless and nobodies, then why did they end?

Maybe because of that reason.

Again, you miss my point.
An entity solely of heart + darkness. Abstract.
An entity of a body + soul. Abstract.
An entity comprised completely of soul. Not Abstract.

You miss my point, Im saying the unbirth is the soul but i didnt say what is applied to it to change the soul.

Aside from the fact that it's already used in the cosmology, the soul is not a corporeal entity like the heart and shell.

Will see...

The soul is a non corporeal energy powering the body. There's a reason why it's never come up before. Because it's not important. The soul only gives life to which it clings to. It can't take a form of it's own because all it does is sustain life.

If bbs involves death then its going to come up. Either way the soul substains life you say, if the soul is applied to something such as darkness could it take on form i would say yes but i cant be sure at this point.

The soul by itself is not abstract. It's plain. A heart is abstract. A body and soul is abstract, but to a lesser extent than just a heart.

The soul aint abstract you got to be joking, it is abstract.

And still, you're mistaking life for Birth. Life and Birth are not the same thing.

Life and birth occur around the same time.

Birth is the process after Pre-life and before Life. Life and Birth are two different things. Besides, the game is called "Birth by Sleep" not "Life by Death." The latter being the concept you're trying to sell.

Makes sense to me "Life by Death". But i see the title as hinting death in the story.

Yes, death will occur in BBS.
Will it be a major theme? Don't be silly.

Doesnt mean it isnt important.

No. That's stupid.

"freakin genius"

They have a larger connection than how they act.

Thats just one.

Take off the Yannis cloak and not be so stu-

Everyone knows i dont were a cloak its a leotard.

THANK YOU AND GOOD NIGHT!

Bye Karate!!!

 

[Genocide]

But you cant reverse a birth they only way to take the soul back is through death.

I know. That's what I'm saying.
See, using your own logic, you've proven me right.

Their extinct even so like i said something in bbs screwed up the process.

TAV don't have that kind of power.
To wipe out all evil? Hell, I barely think that MX has that kind of power.

I was thinking the same thing.

No, I understand you. It's just that...your logic is stupid and easily counterable; which I have done.

But you cant take the develop of the body back but if death occurs then the soul is taken back.

[facepalm]
You're so dumb.
Do you even just realized what you said?

Still borns. Are babies that die during birth. So birth occurs then death, undoing the birth

It's not undoing the birth. It's just death.
You're trying to word it wrong to get your point across.
And you just contradicted your last statement.

Earlier, you were using Unborn; which has nothing to do with Unbirth.
If you're Unborn, the birth was nullified and the the body resorts to a state of Pre-Life. It also refers to the being right before they're born.

A Soul taken doesn't make you Unborn. It makes you dead.

There's a difference between Unborn and Dead. The life Cycle isn't retroactive. That's what Unborn is, going by what you're trying to peddle.

Here's what I've noticed so far about you so far as term terms:

You've seemed to have gotten the idea that Birth and Life are the same thing. They are not. They're two different processes which happen near the same time. But the fact that people can be born dead disproves that Birth and Life are not the same.

Birth is the coming into the world.
Life starts from the moment you draw your first breath.

Unborn means haven't seen life yet.
Unbirth means something entirely different. It implies a direct retcon of life; via abstract means. I know it doesn't mean life.

Sleep means an end. In this case a beginning via an end. I know it doesn't mean life by death, because if it were, it'd be called "Life by death."

Thats like saying where do souls come from.

A mono/polytheistic belief system.
Depending on whether or not God exists in the KH Universe is a bit harder to pinpoint as we know for a fact that God exist. Case in point Hercules. If we are to take these Gods into context, we can rightfully say that Gods exist throughout the KH Universe and are in fact the source of souls. Being that they're Gods, creators and rulers of everything, a soul wouldn't be a hard matter.

Give it to an Unborn fetus and take it back when it's their time to die. This sounds like birth, life and death to me.

Take your own advice.

It's not propaganda if it's right.

Of course their extinct because of the events in bbs.

Duh stupid. It's obvious that TAV stopped who were creating them. It's obvious who was creating them; MX. Without MX to create them, they go extinct when MX goes bye-bye.

A braindead monkey can figure it out.

They dont have to mean the same thing they just have to relate to each other

Death and Unbirth aren't related. You're just too stupid to realize that. This is where I come in.

Death- The process in which you die.
Unbirth- An implied retcon of life. Retroactive. Going in the opposite direction of death.

Death is forwards, Unbirthing is backwards.

Well if death is involved with the unbirth then yes.

Again, and mind you I'm paraphrasing, you don't know that. You've only given 'what if' variables to sustain your horrible theory; all of which I've countered.

And still, to say that the Unbirths are the soul is to ignore their connection to the heartless.

I'm giving you evidence to disprove that Unbirths = Souls, but you refuse to take it due to the fact that you think you're not wrong. You have yet to be able to turn around anything I say without repeating yourself.

Ive already explained this,

I know. Over and over and over. Each time, your point getting overturned by my reply. Yet you say the same things hoping to see if I'll believe you.

Now they are but werent back then. Because of the UNBIRTHS.

No stupid.

If the Unbirths are the soul like you say, then it should have no effect on whether or not the heart, which is COMPLETELY AND CONFIRMED differernt than a heart making a heartless.

Thus, your statement is wrong.

You have no idea

No, I do. And what's sad is I understand you completely.

:lol:

You DO realize that was a hypothetical point and not in actual agreement, right?

If MX had them to do their bidding they had no reason to exist.

What? That statement makes no sense. It's not even relevant to what I was saying.

Maybe because of that reason

Of course not. the Heartless were created by Xehanort. He took hearts and added pure darkness to them. They became heartless. The Body and Soul sometimes becomes a nobody.

1. According to what you're saying, the Unbirths are stronger than the Heartless.
2. The rules of the universe wouldn't change if the Unbirths were souls. That, that proves you wrong.
3. If the heartless and nobody are the reason for the Unbirths' extinction, then why did you say "Because of something that happens in BBS" The Heartless, and justifiably nobody, were created after BBS ends. You're contradicting yourself.

You miss my point, Im saying the unbirth is the soul but i didnt say what is applied to it to change the soul.

No, I understand everything you're saying. And I'm saying it's not even the least bit plausible.

Will see...

Except we have. You spelled "we'll" wrong.

If bbs involves death then its going to come up. Either way the soul substains life you say, if the soul is applied to something such as darkness could it take on form i would say yes but i cant be sure at this point.

And you now say that they are created here. Make up your mind.

The soul aint abstract you got to be joking, it is abstract.

Abstract: thought of apart from concrete realities, specific objects, or actual instances: an abstract idea.

Okay, how is the Soul abstract? It's the most whored of all elements.

A life form based on a soul. That's abstract? You need to culturize yourself a bit more.

Life and birth occur around the same time

Look at what I bolded. AROUND, meaning not at the exact same time. You agree too. Wow, you're conceeding points all over the place.

Makes sense to me "Life by Death". But i see the title as hinting death in the story.

Only stupid people would get that. Case in point, Yannis.
And the title doesn't hint at anything. Birth by Sleep. They're not basing the title off of American Slang; the only place where sleep means death.

Doesnt mean it isnt important.

The soul only has one use, to sustain life. It does that.
When it doesn't do that, one could even go as far as to say that the soul no longer exists. If it's removed from the body, it no longer serves its purpose and would just dissapate to nothingness.

"freakin genius"

Only to someone who's ass retarded.

Thats just one.

By which you tried to link Heartless to Unbirths.
Have you looked at an Unbirth and a Heartless lately?
By their aesthetic appearance alone, something tells me that they have have a larger connection.