What if Xehanort came first?

[Avens]

What if Terra looks like Xehanort because Xehanort came before him?
When I saw Mickey in Radiant Garden in the newer scans, I was a little puzzled. In the Secret Ansem Reports, AtW phrases his meeting with Mickey as if they'd never met before, although he writes about the 'infamous Keyblade' as if he's familiar with that. But, Mickey is supposed to arrive by gummi ship after the barrier around Radiant Garden falls. After Xehanort opens the door to darkness. After Xehanort has been apprenticed. And alright, so maybe Mickey wasn't able to talk with Ansem on his first visit--and from the scene in KH2, his concern is that the stars are going out, and he wants advice. At the same time, who's to say that worlds weren't being overrun by Unversed the same way they were with Heartless?

Whether or not Mickey spoke to Ansem in BBS, it got me thinking about the way we've been addressing the timeline, putting Terra before Xehanort the apprentice because he looks like a mix of Terra and MX. And what I'm thinking is, what if some part of Xehanort was in Terra before the events of BBS, which made Terra appear more like Xehanort (like how Ven's memories might be affecting Sora's appearance, like other people have said)? It would explain Mickey in Radiant Garden, Ansem's comment that he found Xehanort years before Radiant Garden fell (and why Ansem's concerned about darkness of the heart since there are still Unversed around), and why Xehanort has no memories, if they all went to Terra.

And before you point out that it's impossible because Xemnas calls Aqua's armor a 'friend' and talks about Roxas sleeping again, here's the general scenario I've come up with:

--Towards the end of the Keyblade War, MX makes a duplicate of himself because he's getting old, and he wants to live on in some form. Not being a scientist, he animates it by giving it his heart and some of his memories--there's no darkness involved, so this shouldn't make a Heartless.
--Eventually MX and his younger clone get into an argument, and they intend to fight to the death. Personally, I think it was because without a heart, MX could not truly wield, and this fact was beginning to wane his potential. The battle ends with MX removing the memories from the container, which appears to die. This ought to give MX back his heart, and he is surprised when it doesn't work. (Xigbar: How many years ago was it, now. Key-shaped blade wielders appeared in this land, and went and had an awesome battle. After those guys disappeared, there was a man who had lost his memory, fallen down. And that was exactly the same time Xemnas—no, Xehanort, was picked up by Ansem, wasn’t it?)
--In fact, Xehanort the clone barely escapes off to Radiant Garden at the point of death, where he is discovered by Ansem and healed up. Removing his memory did change him into an Unversed, but he was able to keep his identity, ironically, because the dark memories which still remained in his heart were ones of hatred for MX. In other words, he was saved by the emotion of self-hate.
--Meanwhile, MX believes that he has made an error, and so he plants the collected memories into a young apprentice named Terra when he comes back from the Keyblade Wars. This is to ensure his immortality until he can come up with a plan. If Terra dies, the memories planted in him will return to MX, and if MX dies, enough of him will translate over to Terra that he should be able to take over. Memories seems to fluctuate like that.
--Time passes, probably a couple years, and Terra grows in appearance a little like the young Xehanort. Maybe he even inherits some of his power.
--MX, still desiring a real Keyblade and not one merely made from memories, devises a plan to use Kingdom Hearts to remove Terra's heart, with his memories inside, and merge with it.
--This plan is unsuccessful. Both MX and Terra end up being destroyed. MX, basically a Nobody, fades and Terra probably dies in such a way that he can come back later.
--Terra's memories and also the ones from MX travel to Xemnas, who having newly been born, believes them to be his own.

I don't think this has been brought up before, and I've only just thought of it, which probably means that I'm missing something. I'm sure someone will let me know, please do. I just think it's an interesting idea.

 

[DiceKiller]

I really like this. But my only problem is that it MIGHT be a little too complicated, or long to set up in the game as well as include the mystery of Ven/Roxas, where Eraqus and Aqua went and what Vanitus exactly and his likely connection to Riku. But I still really like it. I can't really find any holes at the moment, but I'll comment again if I think of something else.

 

[Zeagal]

Okay well Xehanort was said to have been found after the events of BBS not sure exactly how the times work but it's 8 or 9 years before KH1 for Xehanort to be found and 10 years before KH1 for BBS.

Also I don't think there can be a nobody like situation at this point. They don't exist.

 

[Avens]

Okay well Xehanort was said to have been found after the events of BBS not sure exactly how the times work but it's 8 or 9 years before KH1 for Xehanort to be found and 10 years before KH1 for BBS.

Also I don't think there can be a nobody like situation at this point. They don't exist.

Where does it say that Xehanort was found after BBS? Generally we have been placing Xehanort being found by Ansem as after BBS because most people think he is a blend of Terra and MX. Ansem doesn't give us a time for that, only that it happened sometime before the fall of Radiant Garden.

Also I don't think there can be a nobody like situation at this point. They don't exist.

--Well, if this idea is correct and Xehanort was in Radiant Garden during BBS, then yes there could have been. But what MX was doing was sort of like making a nobody by default by removing his heart without a Heartless.

Glad you liked, Dicekiller! Ven and Vanitas actually don't get too complicated when you add them in, but I'll save that until the initial idea here's been tested a bit more.

 

[Zeagal]

Where does it say that Xehanort was found after BBS? Generally we have been placing Xehanort being found by Ansem as after BBS because most people think he is a blend of Terra and MX. Ansem doesn't give us a time for that, only that it happened sometime before the fall of Radiant Garden.

Hmm well I see there isn't an exact time given in the reports but I can say I had always thought Xehanort was after Terra not because of an assumed connection.

--Well, if this idea is correct and Xehanort was in Radiant Garden during BBS, then yes there could have been. But what MX was doing was sort of like making a nobody by default by removing his heart without a Heartless.

Not really when there are Unversed around.

 

[αsiя]

What I thought it was confirmed that Xehanort was found after BBs
See all you guys say stuff like if its confirmed

Nevermind
I remember now where they said it

 

[Avens]

Hmm well I see there isn't an exact time given in the reports but I can say I had always thought Xehanort was after Terra not because of an assumed connection.

Not really when there are Unversed around.

I thought he was after too, until recently.

Unversed and Nobodies can't coexist? Even, what's to say that Heartless and Unversed couldn't coexist? I don't understand what you mean.

 

[th3XIIITHchas3R]

u might be on to something:31:

 

[Cexiangel]

This is the best theory ive hear so far. There is a very good chance it is wrong, but it actually makes sense and fill up all the loose ends in a logical way. Although, Nomy's probably gonna find a different way to fill up all the holes logically, but your theory is a definite possibility

 

[Luap]

One flaw with your Theory. Under your conditions Xehanort would have no heart after Terra and MX are gone. Now where did Ansem (not DiZ) come from if he is a Heartless.

I like the Thoery but that is a BIG flaw so unless you think of something clever that gives him back MX's Heart back it doesn't work.

 

[OmniChaos]

putting Terra before Xehanort the apprentice because he looks like a mix of Terra and MX.

We're putting Terra before Xehanort because Xehanort was said to have appeared in Radiant Garden after BBS ended.

Ansem's comment that he found Xehanort years before Radiant Garden fell

Most likely a mistranslation.
Besides, it would be rather stupid to have the being known as Xehanort to already exist and already be an apprentice before BBS in a game that is supposed to explain who Xehanort is.

--Towards the end of the Keyblade War, MX makes a duplicate of himself because he's getting old, and he wants to live on in some form.

I actually think this, in a sense, might be right. I have thought that his original might have existed during or before the Keyblade Wars and that MX was his replica.

Not being a scientist, he animates it by giving it his heart and some of his memories--there's no darkness involved, so this shouldn't make a Heartless.

Heartless didn't exist until after BBS, so there are no worries there.

(Xigbar: How many years ago was it, now. Key-shaped blade wielders appeared in this land, and went and had an awesome battle. After those guys disappeared, there was a man who had lost his memory, fallen down. And that was exactly the same time Xemnas—no, Xehanort, was picked up by Ansem, wasn’t it?)

That would be referring to BBS.

Where does it say that Xehanort was found after BBS?

Xigbar explains it in the New Headquarters scene in FM+.

Ansem doesn't give us a time for that, only that it happened sometime before the fall of Radiant Garden.

Ansem doesn't, but Xigbar does.

 

[Avens]

One flaw with your Theory. Under your conditions Xehanort would have no heart after Terra and MX are gone. Now where did Ansem (not DiZ) come from if he is a Heartless.

Xehanort had MX's heart all along; see first bullet point in the opening post. Thus, we have MX with no heart, and apprentice Xehanort is another...

We're putting Terra before Xehanort because Xehanort was said to have appeared in Radiant Garden after BBS ended.

I can't find that anywhere.

Most likely a mistranslation.
Besides, it would be rather stupid to have the being known as Xehanort to already exist and already be an apprentice before BBS in a game that is supposed to explain who Xehanort is.

Yeah, I know it probably is a mistranslation, but I put it in because it fits nicely, and I think people were saying the phrase meant "awhile ago" anyways, which still works. I would love to see the original Japanese. In this scenario, we would still learn where Xehanort came from, and specifically, what happened to the memories of Xehanort, yes?

That would be referring to BBS.

I'm taking it to be referring to the Keyblade Wars.

 

[Ikkin]

I'm not sure that I agree with the specifics of this theory, but I definitely think there's potential in Apprentice Xehanort being around, in some form or other, before the end of Birth By Sleep.

There's some very serious time-related plot-holes if they're the same person:
- Why did Ansem say that he had taken Xehanort in "some time ago," when Terra-Xehanort could have only been there for a few months at most?
- Why is Apprentice Xehanort so much older than Terra?

I'm not a big fan of fusion theories; they just don't feel right for Kingdom Hearts to me. Memories really need to be the key to all of this... it's just not quite so easy to predict how that would actually work out.

 

[Avens]

Right, fusion theories are messy, although I don't think I've gotten rid of that messiness very much.

Also, about the Xigbar scene--I keep rereading it, and it looks to me like he's talking about two people: one who's fallen down and one who Ansem found at the same time. And while TAV's final battle could take place in Radiant Garden, Sunset Horizons, the place from the trailer, has very different rocks from the ones of the garden's ravine. Sunset Horizons also has a conspicuous graveyard of Keyblades. I don't think Xigbar was talking about the battle with TAV.

 

[Luap]

I don't like Fusion theories either but I though of something close...
Xehanort could have Terra's body - Why they look alike
Xehanort could have MX's heart - Why he like Darkness so much
That way he would have no memories and have a Heart and Body to make Xemnas and Ansem... just need a story to how this happens... Hmmmmm...

EDIT:

I GOT IT!
XM knowing that he is old and will die soon, knows that he will not be able to carry out his plan, whatever it is, and decideds to take that Body of a Keyblade Weilder and but his own Heart into it. Events Take Place and Terra's heart is removed from his body. XM places his own Heart into Terra and thus Xehanort is born. With no alteration to whatever makes hearts which causes Heartless and Nobodies not done yet the body of XM and The Heart of Terra go into Suspension, who knows where.

So now in the Time of KH2, Xemnas and Ansem are destroyed by Sora. Xemnas, being Terra's body returns to Terra's Heart and Ansem, being XM's Heart, returns to XM's Body, because those are who they originally belong to. With Terra and XM alive Xehanort does not return for KH3 but we now have a Good Character, Terra, and a Bad Character, XM, who can create an Extreme Plot Twist to this all.

 

[OmniChaos]

I can't find that anywhere.

Xigbar's comment.

In this scenario, we would still learn where Xehanort came from, and specifically, what happened to the memories of Xehanort, yes?

Your scenario would be better off as history, like the ARs and SARs. It would hardly justify creating a game in which one of its major purposes is to discover who Xehanort is, only to not have Xehanort somehow connected to the game's plot or as a main character in the game.

I'm taking it to be referring to the Keyblade Wars.

If Xigbar was talking about the Keyblade Wars, that would mean the Keyblade Wars would have happened only a few years before BBS happened, as Xehanort is still rather young in Mickey's flashback and Xigbar spoke to Zexion, who we have seen to be very young as Ienzo in BBS, as if he (Ienzo) were there and witnessed when Xehanort was brought in.

We know that Braig and Ienzo both have seen "people with the blade of keys [who] started to appear" in BBS, but that was because VAT visited RG. During BBS, the world's walls are still up, meaning the residents of RG are still limited to their world. That's not saying that the walls could have been put up after the Keyblade Wars, but then I would think the Keyblade would be much more common knowledge, considering the numbers of masterless Keyblades in the Keyblade Graveyard.

Based on how old the Keyblade look in the KG and how there doesn't seem to be any "scars" from something big enough to be called the "Keyblade Wars", I would put the Keyblade Wars at least a few of decades before BBS.

EDIT:

Also, about the Xigbar scene--I keep rereading it, and it looks to me like he's talking about two people: one who's fallen down and one who Ansem found at the same time.

It sounds like you got a bad translation.

How many years ago was it... People with the blade of keys started to appear and fought great battles. When they were gone, a man who had lost his memories appeared. Xemans... no. Xehanort was taken in by Ansem around that time, was he not?

I don't think Xigbar was talking about the battle with TAV.

You are aware that VAT fought with Unversed and even Braig himself while they visited RG, correct? Xigbar said they fought great battles, not that they fought each other.

 

[Avens]

Your scenario would be better off as history, like the ARs and SARs. It would hardly justify creating a game in which one of its major purposes is to discover who Xehanort is, only to not have Xehanort somehow connected to the game's plot or as a main character in the game.

Xehanort would still be around RG, making Heartless in the basement, and he would be there a the end as a Heartless/Nobody. And if the details are in reports, then that's fine. MX can tell Terra and the others what they need to know, because Terra is involved. He may not be a main character, but that doesn't mean you can't learn about him from other sources, and the game still would have a lot to do with his memories.

If Xigbar was talking about the Keyblade Wars, that would mean the Keyblade Wars would have happened only a few years before BBS happened, as Xehanort is still rather young in Mickey's flashback and Xigbar spoke to Zexion, who we have seen to be very young as Ienzo in BBS, as if he (Ienzo) were there and witnessed when Xehanort was brought in.

I put it back about 5 years so Terra would be old enough not to be able to participate in the wars and to have time to grow up. In favor of the wars not being that long ago is the remaining order of Keyblade Wielders itself, which seems to include less that ten people during BBS and only Sora, Mickey, and Riku afterwards. There is no one else helping out with the Heartless, no one else fighting Organization XIII, and both the Organization and Maleficent call Sora the Hero or the Keyblade's chosen one as if he is unique in wielding the Keyblade. I don't know that other people with the Keyblade would be able to sit by while darkness devours their universe, and so, it seems to me that the wars took place not long in the past before BBS. Master Xehanort and Eraqus appear to be trying to rebuild their order, and if you place the wars decades in the past, then you would expect to see more of a hierarchy and more generations of wielders before TAV.

As for Ienzo, he didn't have to be there personally. The novel adds that Xigbar seems to be reflecting to himself, and in that same scene Xigbar mentions that Zexion tends to know things, perhaps Ienzo was just nosy. Also, they were putting Xehanort through tests, it could have been mentioned then.

We know that Braig and Ienzo both have seen "people with the blade of keys [who] started to appear" in BBS, but that was because VAT visited RG. During BBS, the world's walls are still up, meaning the residents of RG are still limited to their world. That's not saying that the walls could have been put up after the Keyblade Wars, but then I would think the Keyblade would be much more common knowledge, considering the numbers of masterless Keyblades in the Keyblade Graveyard.

The Keyblade, like Ansem says, is 'infamous'. Marluxia even mentions in the novels that he's heard about it before (he seems to imply from his past), but never actually seen it. Do you think a conflict involving as much power as the Keyblade Wars, and so many people, would be limited to one world? TAV seem to be comfortable with traveling by Keybike or whatever, like world travel is something they've done or trained for. Which is not to say that wielders disrupted the worlds they went to, which explains why when Sora goes new places, people don't always know what the Keyblade is. Also, if this theory is right then Xehanort could have opened the door already, which would cause the meteor shower during BBS.

Based on how old the Keyblade look in the KG and how there doesn't seem to be any "scars" from something big enough to be called the "Keyblade Wars", I would put the Keyblade Wars at least a few of decades before BBS.

Maybe they're just dusty? I can't watch video where I am now, so I'll get back to that one when I've got a chance.
For the scars, you are either assuming that the wars took place on a single battlefield (I don't think that's what you meant, but just checking) or that the KG was made right over where the wars were at their highest intensity.

It sounds like you got a bad translation.

Thank you for the other one. You could still read it the same as the one I found if you squint.

You are aware that VAT fought with Unversed and even Braig himself while they visited RG, correct? Xigbar said they fought great battles, not that they fought each other.

Yay, I was waiting for you to spot that! I realized in the morning... But I still think the quote could go either way.

 

[OmniChaos]

Xehanort would still be around RG, making Heartless in the basement, and he would be there a the end as a Heartless/Nobody. And if the details are in reports, then that's fine. MX can tell Terra and the others what they need to know, because Terra is involved. He may not be a main character, but that doesn't mean you can't learn about him from other sources, and the game still would have a lot to do with his memories.

Like I said, your scenario doesn't really justify having a game created for it if Xehanort (or whoever he was) has little to nothing to do with the plot.

I put it back about 5 years so Terra would be old enough not to be able to participate in the wars and to have time to grow up.

Then,
A: We would have seen at least something that would have implied a great battles between countless wielders of light and darkness had occurred not that long ago. Some sort of scar.
B: With the shear number of Keyblade wielders involved, the Keyblade would have almost have been common knowledge throughout the worlds.

Master Xehanort and Eraqus appear to be trying to rebuild their order, and if you place the wars decades in the past, then you would expect to see more of a hierarchy and more generations of wielders before TAV.

Not necessarily. It depends on how many apprentices each master took on.
Also, suppose only one or two people actually survive the KW. That person goes on to teach (possibly another master, who goes on to teach) MX and Eraqus, MX goes on to teach Vanitas and Eraqus goes on to teach VAT.

Do you think a conflict involving as much power as the Keyblade Wars, and so many people, would be limited to one world?

Then where are the scars? With something as big as the Keyblade Wars, a battle between light and darkness, you would think we would have seen more damage to the worlds, yet, there appears to be none. There is nothing that would imply that a war has taken place recently in any of the worlds.

TAV seem to be comfortable with traveling by Keybike or whatever, like world travel is something they've done or trained for.

What with the walls still up, I'm sure Eraqus has trained them to get into worlds.

For the scars, you are either assuming that the wars took place on a single battlefield (I don't think that's what you meant, but just checking) or that the KG was made right over where the wars were at their highest intensity.

When I say scars, I mean something that would show that a war between light and darkness occurred there. The KG is the only "scar" seen from the KW so far and, even then, judging from how old the Keyblade look, I would say it would be a rather old one.

 

[Zeagal]

Unversed and Nobodies can't coexist? Even, what's to say that Heartless and Unversed couldn't coexist? I don't understand what you mean.

I mean that a true nobody shouldn't be in existance or nonexistance when there are Unversed about. Now I suppose it could be something close to a nobody...like how I believe that there are examples in other games of things close to Unversed.

 

[Avens]

Apologies for getting back to you late...

Like I said, your scenario doesn't really justify having a game created for it if Xehanort (or whoever he was) has little to nothing to do with the plot.

-Well, I think there are a couple of places where he could have more of an active role. For example, XH kidnapping Kairi, and then with Aqua hovering over her in all the new scans, or Xehanort's effect on MX from what we saw with Roxas and Sora from Days, which could play into the scene with Braig (if MX turns out not to be faking). There's the period where Xemnas was away from RG, too, and then there's the question of what VAT would divulge to him, if they ever met. So no, he wouldn't have nothing to do with the plot.

Then where are the scars? ... There is nothing that would imply that a war has taken place recently in any of the worlds. ...
B: With the shear number of Keyblade wielders involved, the Keyblade would have almost have been common knowledge throughout the worlds.

-Assuming that the wars did take place decades in the past, then you would still have people in the older generations who would have been there to see them, and these people would have told their children and would have kept records (unless in the KH universe people don’t keep track of history, but I doubt that). There would have been eyewitnesses still, unless you’re going back farther than I think, and then you’d still have the less-than-ten-wielders problem. But there are no records, except legends. And this tells us that the main fighting took place elsewhere, probably on worlds like Land of Departure where the KBWs had strongholds, and that sometimes the fighting overflowed to other worlds. People would only have had glimpses, which, because of their lack of context, became legends.

And any major scars, then, would not be on the Disney worlds. This would be the same whether or not you placed the wars decades back into the past. Plus, Agrabah recovered pretty quickly from what happened to it in Days, despite being devastated, and Hollow Bastion’s being rebuilt fairly quickly as well.

Not necessarily. It depends on how many apprentices each master took on.
Also, suppose only one or two people actually survive the KW. That person goes on to teach (possibly another master, who goes on to teach) MX and Eraqus, MX goes on to teach Vanitas and Eraqus goes on to teach VAT.

-Ok, given. Ha, though at MX being taught.

The KG is the only "scar" seen from the KW so far and, even then, judging from how old the Keyblade look, I would say it would be a rather old one.

-Without really knowing what happens to the patina of magical metal when you leave it out in the open for years, I don’t know from the video whether they’d have to be really old or just exposed. Also, as a visual it wouldn’t look nearly as effective if they were all still shiny, and yet to have dust blowing everywhere in a saturated landscape.

Zeagal, MX is basically a Nobody in his components, although the term wouldn’t have been made yet. I really don’t see the issue, unless you don’t want the enemy types to overlap games?