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Worldbuilding in KH3 and KH in General



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2 quid is good

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I've been working on this particular topic for a few months now, and I would really appreciate being able to share it with all of you and hopefully spark a discussion. This particular topic is something I often like to think about and concerns the whole series and it's worldbuilding in KH. I've been typing it out in google docs to keep track of it but I'm feeling too lazy to rewrite up the whole thing so please click the link to read haha


But essentially, I think that KH3 should have capitalised on it's relatively basic "save our friends and kill the baddies" plot to flesh out the KH universe just that little bit more.
What do you think could be done to improve it, or do you even think it needs to be done?

Also as an illustration of just how long I've dithered on this haha
1577229018369.png
 

SweetYetSalty

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This was a well thought up and good read. I'll certainly never look at KH2 Kairi and her tie again. And I fully agree on the usage of Tron's Space Paranoids.
 

Eonstar890

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Just read your essay, very well spoken! I agree with my whole being that it is those little things that do make a “world” of a difference. BBS is one of my all time faves and largely for the reasons you outlined. Hopefully moving forward, the KH series can get back to telling these kind of stories without getting bogged down by its large and tangled history.
 

2 quid is good

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This was a well thought up and good read. I'll certainly never look at KH2 Kairi and her tie again. And I fully agree on the usage of Tron's Space Paranoids.
I'm glad you do, because I honestly think a lot of people sleep on it. I only recently began to feel this way about Space Paranoids but now I genuinely find that entire sequence from landing in Hollow Bastion to that last Cloud and Leon cutscene to Kingdom Hearts' magnum opus
Just read your essay, very well spoken! I agree with my whole being that it is those little things that do make a “world” of a difference. BBS is one of my all time faves and largely for the reasons you outlined. Hopefully moving forward, the KH series can get back to telling these kind of stories without getting bogged down by its large and tangled history.
Yeah, I really would love to return to a pre DDD/KH3 style of KH games but :/ what with UX and worldlines it seems like it's gonna be more pseudo sciency than ever
 
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It was pretty long but i thought it was a fun read.

I prefer the dream realm to the data realm but DDD suffered because it felt like Nomura didn't know what he wanted from the dream realm.

Union X could've been more interesting if they decided to have new plots set 1000+ years before the movies. That might be too much of a hurdle tho.
 
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2 quid is good

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It was pretty long but i thought it was a fun read.

I prefer the dream realm to the data realm but DDD suffered because it felt like Nomura didn't know what he wanted from the dream realm.
If I'm honest I definitely prefer the concept of the sleeping realm too, but I think for all of Re:coded's faults it definitely managed to do justice to the idea of a Date Escape
 
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If I'm honest I definitely prefer the concept of the sleeping realm too, but I think for all of Re:coded's faults it definitely managed to do justice to the idea of a Date Escape
The Data realm could be interesting but i think Coded gave it a bad first impression. People wrote off the game as an excuse plot and i felt it was a boring watch.

Im hoping it gets a second chance along with Xion. I was underwhelmed by her and Days in general. People use her as a scapegoat for it's problems but i don't think Days should've been a Roxas-centered title to begin with. 2 told his story well and I didn't think Days added a lot. Honestly i felt Axel/Lea should've got it instead.

Funny thing is i feel like the Platinum Demo for Ffxv would've been a good opening for DDD.
 

alexis.anagram

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Nice read. It probably could have used a stronger conclusion summarizing the main point(s) of the piece, but the thrust of the argument is well taken. Although I do have a slight qualm with the premise, or maybe it's just a tactical difference of opinion: conceding ground on what is or is not "necessary" seems somewhat misguided, since the metric used to determine the level of world building that should go into a story isn't best related as a question of what is functional in directly progressing the plot, but what is necessary to provide the foundations upon which the plot can progress. As your essay relates, world building is the process of developing setting and character as a method of evincing thematic texture and layering the narrative with context and subtext: it's where the hardest work in a story is done, by providing the necessary points of reference to make what happens in the story meaningful. It's what separates a story in which events occur by pure narrative contrivance from a story in which the protagonist is effectively challenged and engages a personal arc with the potential for a greater impact. All fiction is artifice: it's the job of the author to convince the audience to care in spite of (or, alternatively, because of) that by structuring the story so that its most disparate elements feel naturally interwoven; or, eschewing that, deliberately justified in form or fashion.

That's why chapters like the ones that take place in KH1 Atlantica or Deep Jungle carry so much weight: both either establish or reinforce some essential quality of character, setting, and/or theme that color the universe and shape the audience's perception of it. The better informed we are to understand what creates strong hearts, or the nature of the Keyblade, the more effective it is to see ideas rooted in those concepts brought to fruition and resolution, because we can read into the immediate drama using those textual cues to draw additional depth from them. It engages us by causing us to ask questions and seek affirmation, and to involve us in the motives fueling character action so that we become, in a way, complicit in it. We want to see the antagonists push the narrative as far as it can go by effectively foiling the hero, but we also want to have some idea of the basis upon which the hero will prevail...or not.

Oftentimes this gets overlooked by folks who don't necessarily recognize what seamless world building feels like, and so they mistakenly conclude that they have a preference for "simple" stories in which there is a straight and uncomplicated dichotomy of good and evil which is drawn as a line in the sand from the start of the story. But that misses the point that good and evil is always relative, and an author can only confer these qualities by communicating them to the audience through characterization of action and intention, and then drawing a moral contrast. That requires keying the audience into the fictional world's current and historical state of affairs, the major players and influencers of note, and at least the general reasoning behind where they stand in the scheme of things. Without that, there's no reason to assume that the Empire is evil and the rebels are good in Star Wars, unless one just has a personal preference.

So I'm in agreement with you that one of the (unexpected) charms of KH from its early days through the handheld trio of games preceding DDD, and I suspect one of the biggest reasons for its sustained popularity and the committed nature of its core fanbase, is the balance it provides in advancing main story stuff while grounding it in strong character work and an established sense of place. DDD and KH3 stumble hard by being too plot forward and leaning transparently on the world building merits of earlier titles, siphoning characterization and context from them in a vain attempt to sustain some sense of meaning in the events that occur. While...also being really bad at even that, and ultimately devolving into introverted, self-referential, incoherent perambulation of the sort that makes KH3 less an entry in the story it's intended to close and more vain meta commentary on the precariousness of franchise storytelling as a design. From the II.9 bit, to the way half the characters talk, it's a game that's designed to make the familiar audience go, "Yeah! I played those other games! I won that gacha game contest!" without ever substantiating its own existence beyond a kind of presumption of brand devotion from obedient consumers (and for the uninitiated, they recreated an entire musical segment from a Disney film, so that will have to suffice). It's got enough threadbare (or, as you diplomatically phrase it, "streamlined") plot stuff to make excuses for the one-and-one-half act structure it pitches, but nothing in the way of real storytelling to fuel its advancement. It's so caught up in its own need to anchor itself to any other piece within the franchise that it doesn't even have the courage to end.
 

OneDandelion

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I've got a few thoughts on this. Kingdom Hearts 1 was a great start to the series and part of the reason it seemed so grand is because it threw so many concepts at you at once that the universe felt bigger than it really was. More importantly though, the princesses of heart were an integral part of the story. And through the princesses of heart arc of the story, the worlds felt connected because they directly affected each other and the villains in each of these worlds were antagonists of the worlds themselves.

For the rest of the series this is not the case. Instead, worlds exist merely as a setting for the plot to unfold. Can anyone think of a story arc that took place in a disney world, that is important to the main story, that could not effectively be swapped out with any other world and have delivered that story in the same way? I can't. Battles between heartless and the internal and external conflicts of the organization could happen anywhere - unfortunately as the series has progressed this has become increasingly obvious to the point where (I think most people will agree) the disney worlds in Kingdom Hearts 3 felt like a chore - like a mandatory obstacle course to get to the finish line.

You commended Kingdom Hearts 1 for not being "stagnant" and that the worlds were interesting because the characters within them had knowledge of the universe such as King Triton knowing of keyblades, but in my opinion both of these things are rather unsubstantial. Actually, I would say Kingdom Hearts 3 accomplishes the same things only to display how unimportant both of these are - toy box, monster inc, and sanfransokyo all had messagesor ideas that technically weren't touched on prior to KH3 and in a way they expanded upon our knowledge of the story. Yet, despite this these worlds felt empty and unimportant. The truth is... that's because they were unimportant. The game could have completely lost the first 20 hours and still delivered the same message at the very end of it. Nomura can try to fill new worlds with seemingly significant plot devices but subconsciously we are able to tell what is and is not important, and it shows.

I disagree with you on space paranoids being the best the series has to offer as well, although I admit I can't even remember what its significance to hollow bastion was.

358/2 days is also one of my favorite KH stories, and I didn't even mind revisiting worlds for their missions because the game felt authentic. However, world building was not this games strong suit it was character development.

I did enjoy birth by sleep, but once again I disagree with you on the degree of which the worlds themselves impacted the story. The exception here is Maleficent because she is an established figurehead of the darkness and so her existence and her world already feel more impactful to the game. That being said, this game had great level design and it was a lot of fun.

Now to summarize - the further this series progresses the less necessary disney worlds have become. They were only actually necessary in Kingdom Hearts 1, but at least Nomura tried to make them seem important in the earlier sequels. Now they merely serve as obstacles to pass in an effort to arrive to the cutscenes of the main story. That is a huge problem because its not fun or engaging.

Had Kingdom Hearts 3 taken place entirely in the world of darkness, twilight town, hollow bastion, merlins book between axel and kairi, Yen Sid's island in the stars, destiny islands, and all of the other worlds invented by Square that are relevent to the plot and continued dialogue and worldbuilding in those worlds instead of random insiginificant disney worlds - KH3 could have been a good game. Instead it felt like a 20 hour disney advertisement with the cutscenes i wanted at the end.
 

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I've got a few thoughts on this. Kingdom Hearts 1 was a great start to the series and part of the reason it seemed so grand is because it threw so many concepts at you at once that the universe felt bigger than it really was. More importantly though, the princesses of heart were an integral part of the story. And through the princesses of heart arc of the story, the worlds felt connected because they directly affected each other and the villains in each of these worlds were antagonists of the worlds themselves.

For the rest of the series this is not the case. Instead, worlds exist merely as a setting for the plot to unfold. Can anyone think of a story arc that took place in a disney world, that is important to the main story, that could not effectively be swapped out with any other world and have delivered that story in the same way? I can't.
Space Paranoids. Unfortunately...that's probably the ONLY Disney world. It has a pretty big significance to Hollow Bastion as a gateway to its database as well as Tron taking over Ansem's computer. Honestly, THAT should've been touched upon in KH3 rather than just replacing something so crucial to the world with Ienzo and the silent duo of Aleaus and Dilan.
 
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Elysium

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Now to summarize - the further this series progresses the less necessary disney worlds have become. They were only actually necessary in Kingdom Hearts 1, but at least Nomura tried to make them seem important in the earlier sequels. Now they merely serve as obstacles to pass in an effort to arrive to the cutscenes of the main story. That is a huge problem because its not fun or engaging.
It does feel that way sometimes. Because they rarely drop anything between the beginning and the ending, you become impatient to find out what's going to happen next, which makes the last few worlds a chore to get through. Not necessarily because those worlds were bad per se, but because you're tired of waiting for something of significance to happen or to see a character you like. I know I have always felt that way in KH2; starting the second half of the world map in that game is sigh-inducing and I often want to skip Pride Lands altogether. And then something finally starts happening with Radiant Garden, but then, nope, you have to go through another level (Space Paranoids, which isn't even as irrelevant as most of them) first before you can get to anything.

KH3 feels the same once I hit The Caribbean, but especially by the time I get to San Fransokyo, I am so ready to be done with nothing happening.
 
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alexis.anagram

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I've got a few thoughts on this. Kingdom Hearts 1 was a great start to the series and part of the reason it seemed so grand is because it threw so many concepts at you at once that the universe felt bigger than it really was. More importantly though, the princesses of heart were an integral part of the story. And through the princesses of heart arc of the story, the worlds felt connected because they directly affected each other and the villains in each of these worlds were antagonists of the worlds themselves.

For the rest of the series this is not the case. Instead, worlds exist merely as a setting for the plot to unfold. Can anyone think of a story arc that took place in a disney world, that is important to the main story, that could not effectively be swapped out with any other world and have delivered that story in the same way? I can't. Battles between heartless and the internal and external conflicts of the organization could happen anywhere - unfortunately as the series has progressed this has become increasingly obvious to the point where (I think most people will agree) the disney worlds in Kingdom Hearts 3 felt like a chore - like a mandatory obstacle course to get to the finish line.
I don't entirely disagree with you on the issue of how Disney elements have been integrated throughout the series, and the downward trajectory that seems to follow, but as a matter of general structure there's a reason that undoubtedly flawed games like KH2 and BBS (and their accompanying stories) still resonate in a way that KH3 doesn't: they have strong and well executed hooks bolstered by a clear dramatic mandate.

I think this is best represented by KH2, which features a super ambitious, jam-packed narrative that doesn't always hold up super well to the kind of immediate scrutiny these games naturally elicit as action-adventure epics-- but it's precisely that degree of energy and thematic work happening in the background which makes it rewarding in spite of its errors. This is a game that goes out of its way to place stakes on virtually every event that occurs by tying it into somebody's point of pathos, even creating new characters outright just to keep the wheels on the narrative greased, which enables the action to constantly scale upwards while driving at several core conflicts that, by the end of the game, have culminated towards one final and necessary objective. It's easy to miss this because we're all so preconditioned to recognize the patterns of a story like KH2's and forecast the outcome, but it's worth noting that Sora does not begin the game ever intending to fight Xemnas (like, he doesn't even know who Xemnas is). The game itself doesn't even start with Sora, and so much of his journey is essentially not his own: we view it through his eyes because of the connections he shares with others whose arcs intersect with his, and that robust ensemble element helps the narrative to feel fleshed out with an embarrassment of rich emotion and constant, deliberate payoffs to both its own internal set ups, and those of the past two titles. This broader, galvanizing effort to build the world of KH up into more than one boy's personal heroic escapade helps insulate the lackluster Disney settings from interfering too strongly with the overall momentum carrying the narrative: as @2 quid is good points out in their essay, the game has a proper, glorious, full on Battle for Helm's Deep style climax at the halfway point and the entire orientation of the narrative shifts as a result. The Organization goes from being a mysterious and troublesome question mark lurking at the fringes of the story's action to stepping up as an imminent threat, pitting Sora against his own best instincts and demanding a refocusing of the protagonists' collective efforts. There's something left to be desired in precisely how this is executed, but the rationale for sending Sora on another round of visits through the Disney environments is solid: by cranking everything up to 11 (or is it 1000?) with the Heartless Battle and then leaning into a kind of falling action mid-narrative, the impression is that the story has reached a dramatic turning point, and even though superficially much remains the same, the underlying tension belies just how firmly things have diverged from where they started. Characters start dying, the worst fears and highest hopes of the protagonists are regularly being referenced as their resolve is tested, and it lands because we have a baseline comprehension of the worlds this conflict inhabits and the effect it's having on them. I think this is thrown into sharpest relief when Xemnas starts calling on his fractured imitation of Kingdom Hearts to give him power, and he's specifically drawing on the lingering anguish of all the people he essentially had slaughtered all throughout the KH universe so that he could collect their spiritual energy and make it his own-- and what's worse, he's been manipulating the good guys into doing the bulk of this work for him. Talk about an antagonist who is not fucking around.

Meanwhile, in KH3, pretty much all MX does is fuck around. He sends his minions to be pests towards SDG while twiddling his wiggly fingers and waiting for the war to come to him on the barren, forgotten planet where he's ensconced himself at the outer edges of the KH universe, which is pretty symbolic of the tact that KH3 takes towards world building in general. It's all empty throwaway exposition and remote callbacks, or just bizarre plot fudging like the entirety of Toy Box, which doesn't inform or expand so much as it confounds and constricts. There's no turning point because there's no momentum: we go from opening with a fully developed character who elicits an instantly recognizable convergence on themes of nostalgia and loss and the components of personal identity in KH2 to barely even getting an opening in KH3, unless we're counting the filler arc that is Olympus which is so obviously forced into the role of "perfunctory introductory chapter" that Sora immediately forgets what he's doing there from the moment he arrives. And that's, sadly, the theme with the most recurrence in KH3: protagonists set adrift, with no earthly idea where they're supposed to be going or what they're supposed to be doing (and antagonists who aren't much better off chasing not one but two varieties of red herring), and nothing we might learn about the places they visit or the people they see matters because there's no overarching motif to which we can tie it all back. Every inciting incident in the game basically occurs through luck and coincidence (some might even call it contrivance) through totally vacuous dramatic logic, and the Disney worlds are basically littered with stock characters espousing the same platitudes every game has dealt in (and some more embarrassing than those) with none of the context to make it stick. The successful KH games don't work by anticipating a face-value buy-in from the audience on the strength of friendship like some "very special episode" moralizing on the issue: they work by proving the value of that principle through portrayals of how hard-won enduring connections with others come, and how easy (and dangerous) it is to lose sight of them. I guess KH3 kind of forgot about that.
 

OneDandelion

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It does feel that way sometimes. Because they rarely drop anything between the beginning and the ending, you become impatient to find out what's going to happen next, which makes the last few worlds a chore to get through. Not necessarily because those worlds were bad per se, but because you're tired of waiting for something of significance to happen or to see a character you like. I know I have always felt that way in KH2; starting the second half of the world map in that game is sigh-inducing and I often want to skip Pride Lands altogether. And then something finally starts happening with Radiant Garden, but then, nope, you have to go through another level (Space Paranoids, which isn't even as irrelevant as most of them) first before you can get to anything.

KH3 feels the same once I hit The Caribbean, but especially by the time I get to San Fransokyo, I am so ready to be done with nothing happening.
Yeah, KH2 is sort of the fan favorite of the series and I would agree the combat is probably the best, but I've always thought the worlds in KH2 were quite boring. It's been a while since I've played it but the difference between KH2 and KH3 was that at least KH2 had important things happening inside disney worlds - either introducing new villains or significant plot points. These things could happen anywhere so the worlds are still inconsequential but at least you felt that the story could progress inside the disney worlds in KH2 whereas literally nothing significant happens in the KH3 disney worlds.

When KH3 was announced and olympus was shown getting burned to the ground I was actually excited because I thought some of the disney worlds were going to fall and we were going to try to save them. Of course we somewhat do that, but it never feels significant because no disney worlds actually fall to darkness. In my opinion this would have been a great way to make the worlds relevant again without making them strictly dependent on the plot (and perhaps if Nomura had more control this would be the case), but clearly Disney wanted their worlds tied extremely closely to their movies so the plots could not be changed in a meaningful way and the villains of these worlds are no longer allowed to be turned to heartless for what I assume is marketing reasons. The exception to this may be Toy Box, and I wasn't surprised to hear that Nomura had demands from Disney about a Toy story world, but all of the "bad" toys in that one ended up being originals made up by square enix as well.

Which is why, if possible, Square should be moving on to Final Fantasy worlds. They would set a more mature tone and also have more creative freedom to create worlds in a way that feels meaningful.
 

2 quid is good

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Although I do have a slight qualm with the premise, or maybe it's just a tactical difference of opinion: conceding ground on what is or is not "necessary" seems somewhat misguided, since the metric used to determine the level of world building that should go into a story isn't best related as a question of what is functional in directly progressing the plot, but what is necessary to provide the foundations upon which the plot can progress
Personally I'd prefer that the word necessary be wiped completely when talking about KH, especially KH3 XD
About conceding, I suppose I've come to a point where I'm trying to argue for the middle of the road with KH3, but I agree with you completely in that we shouldn't be including/discluding things on the basis of whether they progress the plot or not, but rather how they can enrich KH.
You commended Kingdom Hearts 1 for not being "stagnant" and that the worlds were interesting because the characters within them had knowledge of the universe such as King Triton knowing of keyblades, but in my opinion both of these things are rather unsubstantial.
Maybe I should have made this clearer, but I find that the reason why KH1 isn't stagnant isn't just because characters have knowledge of the universe, but because in every single world we get something tangible, whether it's seeing Alice get kidnapped, Sora, Donald and Goofy having a bust up in Deep Jungle etc. If we aren't getting something that directly progresses the plot in KH1, then we get something that fleshes out more of sora's relationships (like meeting cloud) or fleshes out the universe like Triton. I totally agree that those exposition scenes felt terrible to sit through in KH3 because that's basically all we had.
I disagree with you on space paranoids being the best the series has to offer as well, although I admit I can't even remember what its significance to hollow bastion was.
When I was younger I really disliked space paranoids, I felt like it was a pretty boring setting (probably mostly because I didn't like the music) but with playing through The Grid and DDD, and replaying KH2 earlier last year, I really found an appreciation for it.

I tried to level myself with KH2 rather than approaching it with any preconceptions and I found that the integration of Tron with the Hollow Bastion Restoration Committee, and Radiant Garden at large, one of the strongest crossover elements in the entire franchise. For the first time ever, things that happen in a disney world have a tangible impact on the goings on in an original world, e.g the heartless invading hollow bastion, and Tron being the one to restore the memory of Radiant Garden. And not to mention Tron becomes a fast friend of Sora.

One of the most interesting parts to Sora in DDD is how he reacts to Rinzler/Tron, otherwise he's pretty awful for the rest of the game, and that piqued my interest too, surely Sora would go to Radiant Garden, if for nothing else, to check up on Tron?

Of course you may definitely still think Space Paranoids is boring, but I think it's wrong to put it in the same league as all the other disney worlds.
I would have included 100 Acre Woods as an example of a good crossover world but I'm not over its treatment in KH3
 

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It does feel that way sometimes. Because they rarely drop anything between the beginning and the ending, you become impatient to find out what's going to happen next, which makes the last few worlds a chore to get through. Not necessarily because those worlds were bad per se, but because you're tired of waiting for something of significance to happen or to see a character you like. I know I have always felt that way in KH2; starting the second half of the world map in that game is sigh-inducing and I often want to skip Pride Lands altogether. And then something finally starts happening with Radiant Garden, but then, nope, you have to go through another level (Space Paranoids, which isn't even as irrelevant as most of them) first before you can get to anything.

KH3 feels the same once I hit The Caribbean, but especially by the time I get to San Fransokyo, I am so ready to be done with nothing happening.
Reading this makes me feel better. Glad I wasn't the only one who was tired by the time they got to San Fransokyo. I literally rushed through that world on my first playthrough when I realized they were saving all the good stuff for the end of the game. I still don't even know where half the treasure chest are in this level because I just stopped caring. I was antsy at this point and starving for story elements.
 

2 quid is good

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Reading this makes me feel better. Glad I wasn't the only one who was tired by the time they got to San Fransokyo. I literally rushed through that world on my first playthrough when I realized they were saving all the good stuff for the end of the game. I still don't even know where half the treasure chest are in this level because I just stopped caring. I was antsy at this point and starving for story elements.
This is exactly how I felt, I didn't even stop to get a map for this world, just sped through it in like 45 minutes and used a guide.
 

OneDandelion

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Of course you may definitely still think Space Paranoids is boring, but I think it's wrong to put it in the same league as all the other disney worlds.
I would have included 100 Acre Woods as an example of a good crossover world but I'm not over its treatment in KH3
With the exception of Maleficent and the Princesses of Heart I think you're right. The next time I replay KH2 I'll be looking out for Space Paranoids.
 

2 quid is good

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With the exception of Maleficent and the Princesses of Heart I think you're right. The next time I replay KH2 I'll be looking out for Space Paranoids.
I'm glad to hear it! Of course, it's totally fair to still feel unimpressed by it, I know I find myself skipping cutscenes every so often too
 
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