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How would you alter/improve the Kingdom Hearts series?



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Lonbilly

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It's just wrong.

I think why people don't want it is… because literally next to everybody is connected to Sora or MX now. Did you know how happy people were when Skuld and Ephemer were introduced? Because they were new characters without any connections (though that's yet to be seen).
Nomura is literally focused on just connecting everyone and their dog to Sora in some shape, way, or form. Hell, the dude was surprised because of Aqua's popularity even though she wasn't connected to Sora!

It's just this idea of "everyone is Sora". We have Xion, Roxas, Ventus, Data-Sora, Vanitas (only in appearance, still counts), and if you count her as well, Naminé because she has those crazy-ass powers over Sora's memories.

It's why these memes exist.
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And it needs to stop.

I literally could not have said it better myself. <3
 

DarkosOverlord

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Usually me and Muke have respectfully different opinions in this kind of threads, but I agree 100% on this.
I hope next saga can be a clean slate and not another connectionfest.
Mainly because it takes away from free writing, but also because... people can be important without being the niece of the husband to the cook of the man who makes Sora's shoes.
The universe existed before Sora and Xehanort, in can exist ASIDE them.
 

VoidGear.

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The characters being connected is kind of important in the series considering without them no one would have known Terra, Aqua, and Ventus existed or that they needed help and they definitely wouldn't be trying to save them. Also that destroys the whole message and meaning of the "Heart" in the series. "Our Hearts are connected" taking away that connection that connects everyone destroys the ideology.

There's a difference between connecting characters like "these people have met and a special bond formed" and "oh look, this character has like...4 semi-similar clones isn't that super-cool? Wow we're so creative."
 

Sephiroth0812

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There's a difference between connecting characters like "these people have met and a special bond formed" and "oh look, this character has like...4 semi-similar clones isn't that super-cool? Wow we're so creative."

This is literally the crux of the whole issue.
Connections between characters aren't really the problem per se, but they become a problem when said connection is all that matters to the characters and when there is nothing beyond the stated fact that there IS this connection.

I often take Sora's and Ventus' connection as an example because it is arguably the most jarring example.
More than once it has been stated in in-game sources and dialogue how highly special Sora's and Ventus' connection is supposed to be, and yet what exactly has the series itself done to actually fill that connection with life and actually show its meaning?
Nothing on that front. Sora and Ven haven't even met yet in person and so far the connection was only used to explain three things:
1. Sora's dual-wielding capacity.
2. How Ventus more or less "survived" the events of BBS and to provide the chance for his return and
3. Roxas' appearance and an implied reason as to why Roxas' own heart developed so fast.

Important things certainly, but the "people have met and formed a special bond"-thingy remains rather thin so far, especially since the only two interactions between the "connected" happened when Sora was a) a newborn heart intrigued by Ven's light and b) 4year-old Sora reacting to the second shattering of Ven's heart and offering him refuge, something Sora most likely doesn't even remember.

Then there's of course also the issue with connections between characters that aren't Sora or Xehanort, as these tend to be downplayed as well.
Or in short, there being connections itself is not the problem, it is as so often with this series the handling and presentation that leaves quite something to be desired.

---

As for the issue with X[chi], while I do enjoy what its story brings to the table I can understand and emphasize with some people's wishes to have it more loosely connected with the present day rather than make yet another huge fatey-twisty connection fest out of it that robs both the already existing characters and the new X[chi]-cast of parts of their individuality through forced pre-existing connections.

I personally also feel that the whole package that is x[chi] and its associated era has a huge chance to further overbloat the already heavily burdened lore of the existing saga and frankly, with the prospects that Blank Points (BBS secret ending), Re: Coded regular ending and DDD laid down there is already enough material to build a decent KH III story from, the whole X[chi]-stuff, no matter how admittedly good it is, may unneccessarily complicate things even more.
 

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Condense the games into bigger games. 358/2 Days, if implemented correctly, could have been a part of KH2 with Sora learning bits and pieces about Roxas and his pain throughout the game. Just an example.

And games like Coded shouldn't exist. No more retreading. Use that little bit of new information at the end in a bigger game, don't dedicate a whole game to a few important cutscenes Nomuraaaaa
 

Grono

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Usually me and Muke have respectfully different opinions in this kind of threads, but I agree 100% on this.
I hope next saga can be a clean slate and not another connectionfest.
Mainly because it takes away from free writing, but also because... people can be important without being the niece of the husband to the cook of the man who makes Sora's shoes.
The universe existed before Sora and Xehanort, in can exist ASIDE them.

Anyone sensing a pattern here in these games, like the prequel trilogy of Star Wars?

Anakin was a young sandy-haired blonde boy who also lived a peasant life like his future son, Luke, but also he has the greatest force powers evar because he is the best, but also he is the first human to ever even enter a pod race, but also he wins the pod race at age ten because he is the best racer evar, but also he's the best natural fighter pilot in history because he's the best flyer evar, but also he built C3PO (which still doesn't make sense since C3PO was made as a protocol translation droid to help out with... chores around the house?), but also his accompanying droid on his flights was R2D2, but also he's the chosen one that'll bring balance to the force, but also he's the chosen one to bring the republic to chaos, but also he's a god damn VIRGIN BIRTH because Anakin is literally JESUS MOTHERFUCKING CHRIST. HUFF.

In Kingdom Hearts, it's Sora isn't a special boy, except he's got a nobody that looks like another person that we don't know, only we discover later that he's another keyblade wielder that was way back from the past that visited Sora when he needed help recovering his heart, and because he got help from Sora his evil side looks like Sora, and also Xion looks like Sora because of his memories of Kairi but also she looks like a puppet but also she looks like Ventus but also she looks like Sora himself, except Sora also has another Nobody shared with Kairi who can screw with his memory because every girl in the series either has met Sora or has to BE Sora apparently, since girls are like one in a million in this universe, but also the keyblade didn't choose him, only it chose him later after deciding Riku was being a douche, so he is kind of the keyblade's chose one sort of? Huff.

The problem is they take this huge universe and make it seem smaller and smaller with each passing game, and the big stink I'm making about this is that this series feels like they have to give Sora God-like importance since he's the main character so, much like Ichigo from Bleach, he literally has to be the most important person on the face of the earth that no one can match. It just seems like a lazy way to write a character in is all. Now, Kingdom Hearts handles it better than Star Wars did, I just wish there was more individuality in this universe for once.

And games like Coded shouldn't exist. No more retreading. Use that little bit of new information at the end in a bigger game, don't dedicate a whole game to a few important cutscenes Nomuraaaaa


I see your point and agree with this entirely, but I love Coded so I couldn't sign off on this entirely :p It's pretty useless in the grand scheme of things, sure, but if you made it consequential, took away the retreading, and kept the fun, lighthearted nature of the game itself, we'd have a pretty damn good Kingdom Hearts spinoff on our hands that we could play.
 

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I don't know how you think Rouge One fits what your implying in any way Rouge One does set up for the future it leads right into a New Hope and it does connect to it clearly it explains why the weakness in Death Star even exists which has been a huge controversy in the Star Wars Community for a long time. And how the rebels got the plans to blow it up in the first place. Saying that it exists as its own thing and is completely unconnected to the Star Wars Story and lore is completely untrue. Maybe you should wait until the Chi series is completed before you decide or assume whether or not it does add a good thing to the series but even if you aren't happy with Chi's contribution to KH's Story you better get used to it because it's been stated and shown for a long time that Chi's and KH3 stories are connected. With the whole "lost masters" ordeal. I don't understand how anyone could not be interested in X story. What with it being the origin story of the KH universe and why the separate worlds exist today and why they became divided in the first place. Also there's the fact the series could finally give us answers to Ventus's origins that where hinted at vaguely in BBS. Not to mention possibly giving us some insight on Xehanort's obsession with the Keyblade War. The reason the fake worlds exist in Chi is 1 to show off the Book of prophecies Powers which is going to play a role in 3's story also to give us our Disney in the game cause A KH game without any Disney is hardly a Kingdom Hearts game.

No here is the thing....

First when I say future I very obviously mean Force Awakened. They could have easily used the chance here to instead of focus on the story of Rogue One, they could have made this a necessary piece of story to understand the full plot they are building in the future. That's the key difference between Chi and Rogue One, Chi isn't sitting here telling its own story it's obsessed with setting things up for KH3 instead of just letting Chi be Chi and KH3 be KH3. Rogue One isn't NEEDED to understand the plot, you're never going to feel like you're missing something if you don't see it. Star Wars felt complete without it just like all the other supplementary material in Star Wars, the core story always feels completed and easy to understand. The supplementary material is just stuff to expand upon things that people might find interesting. Someone looked at fact the obtaining of the Death Star information was an untold story and felt it would be able to be an interesting story in its own right. It doesn't need a million connections to things, it doesn't need hamfisted ties to force awakens and then some, it was a strong interesting story that can stand completely on its own. The end result is wonderful we get a great tale that feels meaningful but if you never see it no biggy you're not any worse for wear.

I will judge because I don't need to wait, waiting isn't going to change a thing when the problem is already here. We don't NEED the book of prophecies, We don't NEED the foretellers, We don't NEED any of this stuff they introduced. When KH2 ended there wasn't much for KH3's plot and so they did need to spend time building that up. But that's what Days, BBS, Coded, DDD, and to a lesser extent retroactively CoM, KH1, and KH2 all did. We already have Xehanort bringing back his past selves to create a second organization to use as X-blade ingredients. You already have Xehanort saying he's going to be going after the princesses just in case we don't come to him with our guardians. There that's our first conflict to deal with, the next is Maleficent and Pete are still around. Maleficent and Pete don't need anything, their tenacity, unique set of skills, and ability to mobilize/unify Disney villains makes them a threat we can't ignore. Even if we are more powerful they are more intelligent...ok Maleficent is more intelligent. So handling Maleficent to prevent her from getting too strong and gaining world conquest is something we always have to be vigilant towards.

There you go that's two big overarching conflicts right there for KH3. But if that's not enough then add in we have an up the ante ending where the guardians the seekers face off to forge the X-blade. Which we already know will end in Xehanort's victory, we didn't need a book of prophecy tell us that we were told as much in DDD because if we fight we lose and if we don't fight we lose. So once the X-blade is forged and Xehanort gets his way there is obviously some sort of final conflict that will happen there since no way would our heroes willingly let him use the X-blade. Meanwhile despite the fact we have essentially 3 conflicts already set up we have ANOTHER story to drive us from world to world when the bad guys aren't, finding the key to return hearts. Because that's the thing on top of these multiple villain plots there is another plot where we are trying to save/heal everyone Xehanort/cursed into a crappy fate both to give them happy endings and mobilizing our forces.

That is FOUR big plots, 15 MAIN villains + Disney sub villains, and whatever personal trials we have to face to get back the lost people. Meanwhile we've got the story of SDG, Riku and Mickey, Kairi, and Lea + the apprentices to focus on....as well as whatever story/screen time gets devoted to RXN/TAV and the tacked on Disney hero subplots. KH3 is already so jam packed they've been taking pieces of KH3 out and making them into their own games. KH2 had the same issue of it had a story way too big for one game and we've spent several games fixing/sorting KH2's plot as a result. You know how we don't repeat this issue? We stop cramming more new things in and focus on the stories we already have set up. I love Nomura, I love KH, but this man has literally no self control when it comes to writing. I wanna just smack his hand of a keyboard or a script or whatever he's writing for KH Chi right now and say "no bad Nomura".

Also you act like as if we never got a motive for Xehanort. We've gotten tons of motives for Xehanort the problem is they keep changing his motive and backstory with every. freaking. game. First he's a wise old sage who in an effort to protect his people dove deep into the darkness, became obsessed with gaining knowledge at any cost, and ultimately became a monster we had to destroy. Next game he's actually the amnesiac apprentice of the wise old sage who felt his master wasn't digging deep enough, so he disposed of him, stole his name, and he is the one who became obsessed with gaining knowledge at any cost...to go further than his master ever would have dared.

The following game now he's actually two people. The first a boy from destiny islands who much like Riku had an insatiable curiosity that drove him to leave the island and seek out knowledge. The boy joined a keyblade order sworn to protect the world, but came to feel that the current balance of dark and light left the world vulnerable and unstable. He sought to correct it and turned to the war that first created this world for the answers, but the history of the war was so murky he lost sight of his goal and became obsessed with recreating the war so he could see the creation of a brand new world with his own eyes. By the time he had found his purpose he was an old man and fearing he wouldn't live long enough to see the completion of his goals he plotted to steal a young body. Enter in the second half of Xehanort, Terra, a boy of the same order who wanted to be a keyblade master but was plagued by darkness in his heart he could not control. This boy had issues with always failing to live up to his master and in his final attempt to prove himself he killed his master, lost his friends, and became possessed by Xehanot but still lives on and his goals are to one day rescue his friends and free himself whatever the cost.

Any sane writer at this point would know enough is enough but apparently not Nomura because we're cramming in some BS Master of Master, 6th apprentice from the ancient past, ancient foretellers, book of prophecies, etc... into all this and you know it's going to just result in ANOTHER rewriting of Xehanort's motives and character. >_>

And you know telling us the story of the original keyblade war before the saga is over makes perfect sense. It's the driving force behind Xehanort right now, it's the thing that shaped this whole saga and world, it's a huge blank that doesn't need to be filled as existing as a part of history is good enough....but there is also no harm in letting us see it and have the answers Xehanort wants so bad. Much like Rogue One this is a story that is already inherently interesting in it's own right to tell. But instead of getting the story of the past look at what we actually are getting....

-A story of how the first keyblade war happened because they were fighting to find a way to prevent a second keyblade war which Xehanort will start because of the first keyblade war. Which mind you is totally unnecessary, a simple plot of people living in a utopia of light become obsessed and greedy and turning on one another was already interesting enough of a story on its own.

-Instead of seeing the world of the past we are seeing the same disney worlds that exist in the future, instead of expanding upon the past we are just retreading the same ground. Instead of letting the past have any identity it's all wrapped up in these BS fake worlds except for Daybreak Town, which mind you is why Daybreak town is the most interesting world in the game.

-To make that nonsense make sense they had to come up with this whole plot about a book that can create world holograms, and go on to say this book has the future in it and then to explain that they had to suddenly create a character with future sight...it was one contrivance after another.

-Apparently the people of the past can't even have their own power they all have to "borrow" the power of the future to fight, and instead of fighting one another they all have to fight enemies from the future. Even when they do fight one another they are all fighting one another using powers they borrowed from the future.

-Instead of people growing greedy over light and fighting one another over it...it's turned into a turf war between only small faction of keyblade wielding teens like some sort of battle prom. We aren't even getting to see how regular people are being affected by the war, it's all keyblading teens and fake holograms. >_>

-The characters that the key factors to everything like the foretellers, 6th apprentice, and the Master of Masters don't even seem to have their own identity. Like even if they are somehow all new characters, which is extremely doubtful, the story is still busy throwing lots of intentional parallel to the future character's plots...instead of feeling like we're seeing new stories it just feels like we're retreading the same ground.

-Hell not even the freaking keyblade graveyard in the past could have its own identity. Like its appearance as a battle scarred wasteland was a look that made sense for a place where a massive war happened and hasn't had any real civilization on it in years. But it makes you wonder...what was the place like? Was it once lush and filled with cities and water? Was it once just one big capital of some kind? Was it merely untamed wilderness? Well Chi answered that and the answer is it ALWAYS was a desolate battle scarred wasteland even before the battle actually happened. I'm still holding out that since there is a several month skip that where we stood was actually the ruins of daybreak town after all the fighting had happened, at least then we'll end with getting to see a little of the past's actual identity.

tldr;

Chi has made it so the past has basically 0 identity of its own and doesn't exist or work without the future, it also spit on pretty much the whole image of the keyblade war they had been building up. Meanwhile adding unnecessary contrivance after unnecessary contrivance. It's such a cluster I have to basically sit here and just laugh at how poorly this is being handled.
 
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Sephiroth0812

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X[chi] adding a lot of additional stuff to an already really full plate is exactly what I am worried about as well and where I fully agree with Hirokey.
Everything brought up and forth by X[chi] is strictly spoken not needed for KH III to have a fulfilling story, all that stuff could (and most likely would) have been better to be kept on hold for the next saga.
 
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Here's the thing. We do need the existence of the Foretellers and the Book of Prophecies (in Chi at least) because we need there to be a bunch of powerful Keyblade Wielders who have opposing desires and wishes who fight in a battle so catastrophic that it destroys the entire world and reduces it to just a bunch of smaller worlds. Rather few times is Chi not just its own story and is setting up for just how it will affect 3. Few things have happen so far that do focus on 3 (the only ones I can think of is the ending credits with Maleficent finding a way into the unchained realm and directly mentioning Sora and the origins of Xehanort's Keyblade which is said to be the most ancient) other than a small handful of things is Chi ever focusing on KH3 rather than itself. It just feels like that because we revisit the same worlds we've been to a million times because of CoM and Re:Coded. It's the story about YOU the player as you go on your own adventure, becoming stronger, and witnessing first hand how the original world of peace, fairy tales and light falls into darkness. It's true that Daybreak town is the only unique and fascinating world because of this but the game would not feel like a KH game if there wasn't any Disney characters or worlds and all your missions and such was just in Daybreak Town. These retreads of worlds aren't necessarily the exact same either because the stories all play out differently but i digress. The reason we need the Foretellers and Book of Prophecies is because we need the Keyblade War to happen without them the how and why it happened isn't clear. They explain how there where so many Keyblade wielders in the past enough to cause a whole war between them and why they fought and how the war started in the first place. The Foretellers gave all their followers the ability to use the Keyblade and trained them through many vigorous trials using conjured up worlds and enemies in order to train them to safe guard the light from the sudden rising darkness threat. I don't know how you got The Keyblade War happened because they trying to prevent the second. The entire game and what we've seen so far in Back Cover is the player, the Unions, and the Foretellers trying to prevent the first war from happening at all because they knew it would be the apocalypse. But as time went on it was unavoidable and the conflict was sure to happen because the Unions and Foretellers became paranoid with preventing it only for it to ultimately and ironically cause it to happen anyway because both the Unions and Foretellers began fighting over the ownership of said Light which is what caused the darkness in their hearts and the world to spread ultimately leading into the Keyblade War just like in Kairi's Grandma's story. Which is also the reason for the existence of the unnamed unchained realm because there had to be some way for there to be surviving Keyblade wielders or else what the KH universe became can't happen. And seeing as there was no other worlds to flee to because there was only one world at the time. There had to be this special place where some of the Keyblade wielders could go to in order to keep the legacy of the Keyblade alive and so there'd be people who would safe guard the worlds when they became divided. The Turf War you where talking about was showing just how the Unions started becoming greedy over the ownership of the light and how the darkness grew in their hearts. We also see that in the form of the "Black Costume" Heartless that appear in the game. We've seen little of the Foretellers in Chi probably because they have their own secret agendas aside from leading Unions such as finding the traitor amongst themselves, trying to keep the peace between the 5 alive, and to further keep the war from happening. All stuff that they plan to show in Back Cover and maybe it should have been in Chi but it's a phone/computer game and Chi is mostly suppose to be about you the player going on your own adventure. Maybe all that not being in the game is intentional because Nomura might be keeping all KH3 important info from Chi the series in Back Cover so that people don't have to play it in order to understand KH3 and so Chi can be its own separate entity because unless the theory of Ventus being the Player is true I strongly doubt your player is at all involved in KH3.
 

Muke

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I… really would love to read your post, but my eyes are hurting. :(
 
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It's just wrong.


I think why people don't want it is… because literally next to everybody is connected to Sora or MX now. Did you know how happy people were when Skuld and Ephemer were introduced? Because they were new characters without any connections (though that's yet to be seen).
Nomura is literally focused on just connecting everyone and their dog to Sora in some shape, way, or form. Hell, the dude was surprised because of Aqua's popularity even though she wasn't connected to Sora!


It's just this idea of "everyone is Sora". We have Xion, Roxas, Ventus, Data-Sora, Vanitas (only in appearance, still counts), and if you count her as well, Naminé because she has those crazy-ass powers over Sora's memories.
Why does everyone think that connection = copy or clone to some extent? The connection that exists between all the character's isn't just from them being a different form or version of them it's from them beginning connected through each other's hearts. Invisible ties or strings are what connects all these characters together. And it all leads back to Sora because he is the centerpiece of all these connections even between people who have never met. And not just for look alikes like Roxas and Ventus but other characters like Aqua and Axel/Lea. Sora is connected to Aqua through his connection with Ventus and vice versa. It all branches out in a tree with the source that connects them is again Sora. Sora and these connections have always been what his character was about because he by himself isn't by special but his connection with all these people who are special is. It's been that way since KH1 with "my friends are my power" all the way to 3D. In the scene where Sora confronts Braig/Xigbar that connection and tie can be seen because Braig/Xigbar see's characters both he and Sora have never met or should have forgotten.
The universe existed before Sora and Xehanort, in can exist ASIDE them.
Yes but Sora and Xehanort are the reason the universe and plot is what is now. Without Sora, Xehanort would have succeeded a long time ago and without Xehanort the main Plot and threat to the universe would never have happened. That's kind of the whole point of both Protagonist and Antagonist without them the plot/story can't happen.
 
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We should maybe agree to disagree then.
I'm open to your different views, wants, and desires. Tell me (no criticism or bias will be given) what to you is Sora's character and/or what it should be also what the the true purpose and meaning of a heart is in your eyes?
 

DarkosOverlord

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Yes but Sora and Xehanort are the reason the universe and plot is what is now. Without Sora, Xehanort would have succeeded a long time ago and without Xehanort the main Plot and threat to the universe would never have happened. That's kind of the whole point of both Protagonist and Antagonist without them the plot/story can't happen.

Pretty sure the War is the reason the universe is like this now.
Sora is not remotely involved, as for Xehanort... we'll see.
As things are now, it's possible none of them were related to it, meaning important things happens even without them, meaning there can be important characters and events unrelated to them.

...in the next saga, I'm not that big of a fool to think it will happen in KH III.
 

Muke

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Y'know, I think we should create a new thread for this. Kinda dragging the topic out. ^^
 
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Pretty sure the War is the reason the universe is like this now.
Sora is not remotely involved, as for Xehanort... we'll see.
As things are now, it's possible none of them were related to it, meaning important things happens even without them, meaning there can be important characters and events unrelated to them.

...in the next saga, I'm not that big of a fool to think it will happen in KH III.
I meant that Sora is the reason the universe and individual worlds are still safe (mostly) today and Xehanort (whether or not he is involved with the events of the Keyblade War) is the reason the peace was broken due the forces of darkness growing in strength in the last like 11 years which lead to numerous times where almost every world was plunged into ever lasting darkness.
 

VoidGear.

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Actually I wouldn't blame Xehanort for the "peace breaking". Like, was there really peace? It didn't look like it to me.
 

Sephiroth0812

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Actually I wouldn't blame Xehanort for the "peace breaking". Like, was there really peace? It didn't look like it to me.

Turning it around, from where do you get the impression that there wasn't peace?
As far as we know problems that started to involve multiple worlds and which posed a serious threat to the order of the current universe were not an issue until Xehanort started his crazy and wacky plans.
 
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The only thing that could have posed a threat to the worlds before BBS due the barriers was the Pure Blood Heartless but there are few of them in the Realm of Light. Not to mention if they where dangerous Eraqus and Yensid and their pupils would have taken care of them. Maleficent wouldn't have been a threat because she didn't know of the existence of other worlds or how to travel them until after she met Xehanort.
 
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