Spoilers ► I'm Pleasantly Surprised by this Place's Critical Nature

[Katsagu]

I don't see how you don't see its an issue but we're clearly not getting anywhere with this but agree to disagree I guess. I will say that it's completely disingenuous to try an compare a fully fledged world that has had so much plot relevance since 2002 to a tiny room where all you had was (not very good) exposition.

I mean, do you criticize TLOR for not having the Shire featured in every movie for example?

If the world was not important for this game, I don't see a reason why it not being there is an issue.
I can also pretty much say the same thing about traverse town not appearing in KH 2.

Radiant Garden not being playable in the game is not a something that's is inherently bad by itself. It's when you add to that what people kind of relate RG with, as pointed out by Elysium.

What Elysium said is more than fair though, that it not being in the game is a problem that's directly tied to the absence of FF and the continuous lack of their integration after 2, and RG was a kind of the FF world in that game and had many iconic moments with them (your avatar being one of them haha), so I get why people would get upset by it now and take importance with that world in particular.

 

[Face My Fears]

Try watching different videos to change the algorithm. My twitter feed was full of KH3 discourse but I decided to mute everyone who was part of it. I blocked a shit ton of KH3 toxic haters and passive aggressive defenders.

Spoiler Show

Its amazing how many people LOVE to instigate fights on both sides. The passive aggressiveness was so petty.

Use all the tools at your disposal. Dislike Videos, Click Not Interested, and click Don't Recommend Channel. Also modify your topics, they play a huge role with the new algorithm.

EDIT: I accidently clicked on a video from someone in the Fandom Menace, but I immediately Disliked it and removed it from my view history. Never got another recommendation from him.

I do whenever I see them recommended to me. But it's just weird that hate videos are the only ones that are recommended to me most of the time when all I search for would be KH music or cutscenes. I never actively look for other people's opinions on KH or videos that "discuss" it. I prefer going to the wikia to research on topics further than watch some biased person talk about KH.

 

[KingdomKurdistan]

I'm not sure how pervasive they are. I can really only account for myself. The tournaments side quests are a small thing. The fact that it's such a simple mini-game to implement makes the annoyance they aren't there even greater. It would've been easy to have them take place beyond the gates where Zeus is standing post-world. It's not a Hercules-specific thing--although Hercules being present should've made it even easier to include--since, as I said before, they are also present in BbS in the form of the Mirage Arena. While I personally do enjoy the battlegates, they're more like the side quests in 3D (I believe they were called portals) than anything else. One-off battles that you have to wander around multiple maps to aren't really the same experience; you also don't get to fight characters in any of the battlegates, only random Heartless. Tbh, leaving aside the fact that the game lacks tournaments, I think there should've been many more battlegates anyway.

As for Radiant Garden's absence, to me that's not superficial because it's tied up in the absence of the Final Fantasy characters. The game is lacking both a heart and a midpoint. Twilight Town doesn't function very well as a hub world in 3 to me (what's funny is it would probably work better as a hub world post-3 now Roxas and co. are all there). Then there's the fact that the story of the whole saga began with what happened at Radiant Garden. Not going there to visit SDG's core friends and see the castle finally restored or having some story follow-through on what it means for the Apprentices to be there again after what they did is a huge failure, imo, and it's hard to suspend disbelief that Ienzo is allowed back in the lab or that Sora wouldn't fly straight over there to check on things or that Squall wouldn't be in contact with them simultaneously. As an aside, it would've been the perfect world to have Kairi train on, too--the FF characters could've been training her along with Merlin--since it would allow her to finally be in her home world again. It would've been interesting for Aqua to reappear there when she was saved as well, since it's the place she fell into the RoD.


To some degree I agree with you. But I guess for me it's a hard sell to say Nomura is blameless in how his telling of this story has lead to so much fan criticism. It's been a big trainwreck in a lot of ways. It took all the ReMIXes to clean that up prior to 3 and then 3 rolls around and it's as if he's completely over the completion of his own story. Since the original story and characters often aren't my main concern with the series, it's not at the top of my list of criticisms like it is with other people. Still, 3 often feels like it's lacking in any and all payoff, after years and years and years of nothing but buildup. (The return of Radiant Garden to its former glory is also one of those lesser examples of buildup leading nowhere, but I was more referring to the original story on that point.) Instead everything about the saga's resolution seemed to get bare minimum attention while he was busy setting up the metamorphosis of KH and its characters into the lost Final Fantasy XV. So I can't help but question the attempts to externalize all the blame for fan criticism onto the fans rather than acknowledging that, at least to some degree, this ship hasn't been run very well... I almost think Nomura has come to a place where he doesn't take KH very seriously anymore and thinks of it as little more than a money-maker for both Square and Disney to show off their IPs, which is the reason he doesn't hesitate to play fast and loose with its story.

And because his wishy-washiness has become so apparent, my reasons for following the series are slim and can seem superficial. If he wants to implode his story, feel free, as long as I get my fix of the basic things, in other words, lol. To me, the Radiant Garden crew and tournaments are "the basics," and the fact that he skimped on those is flabbergasting. (For reference, the other items under my "basics" list are well-designed Disney levels, lots of Sora and Riku, SDG, and the Command Menu. )


Well, you're right. It can go awry depending on what you listen to. For example, the btiching about Atlantica in KH1 lead to it being a musical world in 2, likely its absence in BbS where it would've been perfect, and the dearth of a proper water world for almost a decade and a half 'til The Caribbean in 3. And more recently is all the stuff with Kairi from the fandom. The last thing we need is a bad character eating up more screentime, imo. I'm still skeptical that will happen since MoM was sold to some degree as a Kairi game and she still got the shaft. Who knows.

Sorry if it sounded I was targeting you specifically. I Really wasn't.

I do the exact same thing I say isn't healthy. We all do to a degree. I avoid fanfic and wishlist threads precisely because I'll just feel utter devastation that Nomura seems to have locked himself in and barricaded the doors. I won't accuse him of doing it by design, but it's like the convoluted nature of the series provides a shield against meddling as no one could possibly replace that man's unconquerable brilliance and unmatched KH knowledge. I have to repeatedly pinch myself to stop "directing" future instalments in my head. I have a whole screenplay for the final installment practically written in my head: Five acts, a prologue, and an epilogue. My post was directed first at myself before anyone else.

Nomura isn't blameless at all, I hope I didn't come across as defending him. I'm of the very strong opinion that he's now the series' biggest weakness by far.

However, my point was there are far deeper structural issues present that are often relegated to the sidelines in favour of what isn't present.

I just want a good story. If a water world serves that, great. If my checklist of cool things I'd like to revisit is fulfilled while doing so, fantastic. But other than that, I just don't care. I defer to the creatives to justify their art. If Nomura feels it serves the story, KH4 could have a Nightmare on Elm Street world for all I care.

There's a chilling effect from having to tick off stuff the fanbase wants to see. Not only does it increase sameness and safety-first attitudes, it binds the hands of creatives while also giving them a convenient excuse that absolves them of artistic responsibility. If Kairi's predicament wasn't so utterly tragic, bizarre, and retrograde, I'd actually admire Nomura for his utter disregard for fanbase demands. Unfortunately, the fans are right on that one.

But critique of Kairi's narrative arc is of the textual kind I discussed. The stuff you mentioned regarding Radiant Garden and tournaments is not in the same category. One could easily argue the absence of Radiant Garden protects its value by not cheapening it through constant revisits. It might be in the plans for later. Who knows?

That's what I meant by my post: the fundamental problems with these games would not be fixed by the inclusion of this, that, or the other. You could do a survey on here, add every single thing discussed to Kingdom Hearts III, and still end up with a game that has the exact same problems as before (and perhaps more on top).

I'm not saying you shouldn't want or discuss these things btw. Like I said, we all do it.

 

[Elysium]

Honestly I've seen both. The game is very polorizing at the moment among, at least among more vocal fans. The game is a mixed bag so I get it.
On top of that there are people who see every complimant as calling the game flawless and others that see every critizisim as an attack.

I think as the years progress it'll probably mellow out.

You'd think it would have already now that we're one game removed from KH3 (MoM), although there's the mobile games, too. I suppose it might have to wait until the next main-line game (KH4). Whatever's new becomes the new holy grail.

 

[Katsagu]

That's what I meant by my post: the fundamental problems with these games would not be fixed by the inclusion of this, that, or the other. You could do a survey on here, add every single thing discussed to Kingdom Hearts III, and still end up with a game that has the exact same problems as before (and perhaps more on top).

Yeah this is mostly my stance too and what I was trying to point out with my previous posts, you put it into words way better than I ever could haha

 

[Cumguardian69]

I think gameplay discussion still has a ways to go.

It’s ridiculous how people can write literal essays about how the story isn’t the most well written literary work ever made, but you can’t go deep into combat without being strawmaned into oblivion.

This is what happens when story-based, feels-based, or character-based entities try to talk about gameplay. You're being heavily strawmanned because some folks do not understand what gameplay is. Usually it's someone who plays Beginner or Standard and needs to overlevel to play Proud or Crit. Haven't beaten Terra even with cheese strats, let alone MF, VS, AOTM or NH. Calls PA4 a bad fight because of the bad frame pacing that affects all of 0.2.

 

[KingdomKurdistan]

This is what happens when story-based, feels-based, or character-based entities try to talk about gameplay. You're being heavily strawmanned because some folks do not understand what gameplay is. Usually it's someone who plays Beginner or Standard and needs to overlevel to play Proud or Crit. Haven't beaten Terra even with cheese strats, let alone MF, VS, AOTM or NH. Calls PA4 a bad fight because of the bad frame pacing that affects all of 0.2.

What did we say about personal attacks. Reading this feeling I'm subject to an assassination attempt. Been playing way too much Hitman recently, so it could just be that.

Funnily enough, I was just thinking about how little gameplay intricacies figure on my list of issues just as I opened your post.

 

[Cumguardian69]

What did we say about personal attacks. Reading this feeling I'm subject to an assassination attempt. Been playing way too much Hitman recently, so it could just be that.

Funnily enough, I was just thinking about how little gameplay intricacies figure on my list of issues just as I opened your post.

I'm sorry I didn't mean to attack anyone. I just meant to say that gameplay discussion hasn't been unlocked or deepifyed because the entities doing the discussion don't hold it at the forefront. Like it or hate it, beating the superbosses without cheats (especially PA4, Yozora, Terra) requires a certain level of baseline skill even on Beginner mode. Not everybody has or wants that level of skill. And the kicker is: because not everybody wants or has that level of skill, they don't know that it is actually different between the games. KH usually gets big discussion about the feels, character interactions, plot, pacing, and music. This factoid could be used to explain how some people perceive no gameplay difference between KH2, KH2FM, BBS, DDD, and KH3 pre 1.07.

There's so much jargon to KH gameplay, some official and some fanmade, that most people don't have time to absorb and understand. And that's fine - but that also means KH gameplay discussion probably won't be front and center. For like...a long time.

 

[Elysium]

What is PA4??? Tbh, I don't know what any of the acronyms stand for after Mysterious Figure. I usually play Critical, though I tend to play KH2FM on Proud since I can't beat the more gimmicky Data Battles on Critical and leaving the Journal without 100% always bugs me. I always beat Terra in 2 by stunlocking them with jump, attack, jump, attack, jump, attack, etc. I think most of the battles in 2 are horribly designed.

Anyway, some people immerse themselves into the gaming community. I'm not one of them. I'm more into both KH and FF because of Disney really (because Disney lead me to KH which in turn lead me to FF), not because I'm a big gamer. It's too expensive anyway.

 

[FudgemintGuardian]

So I'm a big KH fan, but have definitely noticed the flaws as the series has continued. I mainly come from twitter and it's baffling how many people just utterly praise KH3 there and how they are completely unwilling to take any criticism. I was looking for a cool place to talk about the series in a balanced manner and I have to say, I am so pleasantly surprised by how fair most people seem to be about criticism. Very little blind praise and toxic positivity. It seems like people can genuinely have a discussion here that furthers the quality of the series. Excited to be here ^_^

Twitter. Where not liking something 100% means you're a horrible person who hates everything and eats live puppies for breakfast.

Some people associate a product to their personal identity so when you criticise it, it's almost as if you're criticising them for their interest. I'd just avoid those people.

^This. And it's like they all have the mentality of "Thing happened, so therefor thing good." Thing didn't happen, so therefor it's not needed/never existed/you're dumb for wanting it."

 

[KingdomKurdistan]

I'm sorry I didn't mean to attack anyone.

I was joking

 

[Cumguardian69]

Ok my bad for not noticing the joke!

PA4 = Phantom Aqua 4 aka Zodiac Aqua. It's like one of the greatest 1v1 fights in KH history if you ask me with clearly defined attack and defend phases, parrying, and cool paths of efficiency if you use style change and magic.

 

[AdrianXXII]

You'd think it would have already now that we're one game removed from KH3 (MoM), although there's the mobile games, too. I suppose it might have to wait until the next main-line game (KH4). Whatever's new becomes the new holy grail.

Or the new low point. I remember even back in 2006 there were some very divided opinions on that game and now it's the series' high point to many.

I think usually it takes a new bigger entry or a few years to have passed before emotions no longer run as high.

 

[Alpha Baymax]

Twitter. Where not liking something 100% means you're a horrible person who hates everything and eats live puppies for breakfast.

I blame the Tumblr content removal by Verizion Media for this. All of the people from there migrated to Twitter. They're even worse there because their nonsense comes to your timeline via retweets and liked tweets by other people.

 

[FudgemintGuardian]

I blame the Tumblr content removal by Verizion Media for this. All of the people from there migrated to Twitter. They're even worse there because their nonsense comes to your timeline via retweets and liked tweets by other people.

Yup.