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Is free will possible with an omnipotent and omniscient god?



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Dogenzaka

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Killing is easy once you forget the taste of sugar
well, then you don't believe in God's omnipower of seeing everything.
No. I believe God knows the future, but I don't believe he controls it.
Compare it to being in a helicopter flying over a parade, and being able to see the beginning and end of the long train of people, knowing where it ends, and where it began, and everything that's going on in between. An all-encompassing, general knowledge. But that does not mean he has anything to do with the proceeds of the parade or how it's being run. Metaphorically, the parade is the thread of time and he's in the helicopter. This is how I see it.

God doesn't make my decisions for me, I do.

God saw you doing that. You were fated to.
Two different things. God knew that I was going to come here and reply to you, but he didn't control that decision, I chose to. There's a difference. My knowledge doesn't affect someone else's decision, especially if I don't tell them.

In conclusion, I don't believe I'm predestined.
 
C

coolfresh1224

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i'm an actor and a writer so i think i can explain this
if i write a play you have 2 choices you can follow the script or you can not follow the script i how ever cant change your decision although i know what your decision is
 

Virus

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^That did not help.

God knows what you're going to do, but He works in odd ways. Why is there a Satan and why is there sin? Because without it there wouldn't be free will, with it there is. You can choose the narrow path to righteousness, or the wide path to destruction.

Why does He bring people destined to go to hell into the world? I feel God has a soft spot in His heart even for them, that He hurts when they are thrown into hell. Why does He let it happen? I don't know. To be honest, we don't even know what God does after we die. I'm Christian so i know i'm going to heaven, but those are my beliefs. Someone of a different religion may think that their religion is "right" because they have free will. But once they die, does God come and help them? Maybe He does. He loves His children too much to see them perish.

There is free will because God is too kind to say that He wants to play Sims with us.
 

Dogenzaka

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God knows what you're going to do, but He works in odd ways. Why is there a Satan and why is there sin? Because without it there wouldn't be free will, with it there is. You can choose the narrow path to righteousness, or the wide path to destruction.

Yeah, I can't really explain all of it because God purposefully doesn't tell us everything, similar to parents.
Sin isn't like a physical or material thought or object, sin is just imperfection...God is, Biblically, perfect in every single way, so basically not being like God is sin...and we were in his image and like God until we decided to choose sin over Him.

As for Satan....before Adam and Eve, Lucifer was an angel that rebelled against God, because he wanted to be above God and he decided to rebel against perfection in pride and jealousy. 1/3rd of the angels sided with him. That was when the angels of heaven made their choice on what they want to do. 1/3rd of the angels decided to side with Lucifer, and so since that was sin, God created a place of punishment for these "fallen" angels and cast Lucifer and them there (AKA Hell). With that, sin was no longer in heaven, and those that remained worshiped and loved God and remained his loyal servants...the angels we know today.

Satan and his demons, have a personal vendetta against God, I'm sure because we were created in God's image, it made him especially jealous and angry...and therefore sought to destroy humanity and lead them to death and separation from God. So Satan tempted Adam and Eve. Nothing that Satan does, however, is outside of God's knowledge, so it's very possible God allowed Satan to try and tempt Adam and Eve to see if we would choose God over Satan...which we chose the latter of.

Sin entered the world simply because we messed up once. We disobeyed perfection and with the consumption of the fruit our eyes were opened to both good and evil, and we were eternally separated from God because he is only perfect and God.

God punished Adam, Eve and Satan for their actions, and as much as he loved them he was in sorrow and, well read the rest of the Old Testament. Even if you don't believe in it, it's a fascinating story.

Why does He bring people destined to go to hell into the world?

They choose to go to Hell....it's kind of silly in my opinion to say you would rather not live because you're scared of going to Hell, when Heaven is an extremely easy and wonderful choice.

Regardless, he wanted to create companions in his image..and he saw that it was good. God sees procreation as good. He wants people to fellowship and commune with and love. Sadly some don't choose Him, but at least he gives them the choice.

I'm not really sure, I'm just giving my answer.

I feel God has a soft spot in His heart even for them, that He hurts when they are thrown into hell. Why does He let it happen? I don't know.

Of course it hurts him...the Word says that God desires that no man go to Hell, but that all be saved through the knowledge of His Son.
He's good and just, so imperfection is something that is just impossible for God to be with. It can't be with him and He can't be with it. We're sinful, that if God revealed himself completely to us we would die. That's not how it used to be. Souls that choose sin must be punished, because that is just and good. It's just how things work. And it hurts him, but because he's the origin of justice, he will judge all at the end of time. Those who don't accept him will have their last chances during the Apocalypse when he comes back.

To be honest, we don't even know what God does after we die.

It's sort of unknown, but I've had people theorize and say that time is like a ring, going on forever and God can see the entire thing. When someone dies, they go outside the ring, both saved and unsaved, outside the realm of "time" perse'e, and then when judgment happens all souls suddenly appear at that time-period to be judged...and those written in the Book of Life will reign with God in the New Heaven and New Earth for all eternity in peace, joy and fellowship with the Creator.

Lots of ideas, but all we know is that Christians go to Heaven and those who don't accept Christ are punished.


But once they die, does God come and help them? Maybe He does. He loves His children too much to see them perish.

Nope. Sorry, the scripture says "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father but by Me." and "If you declare me before men, I will declare you before my Father in Heaven. If you deny me before men, I will deny you before my Father in Heaven." There's simply no other way to paradise but by Jesus, because he was the only perfect person to die for the sins of the world so we could reunite with God.
 

Virus

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Yeah, I can't really explain all of it because God purposefully doesn't tell us everything, similar to parents.
Sin isn't like a physical or material thought or object, sin is just imperfection...God is, Biblically, perfect in every single way, so basically not being like God is sin...and we were in his image and like God until we decided to choose sin over Him.

As for Satan....before Adam and Eve, Lucifer was an angel that rebelled against God, because he wanted to be above God and he decided to rebel against perfection in pride and jealousy. 1/3rd of the angels sided with him. That was when the angels of heaven made their choice on what they want to do. 1/3rd of the angels decided to side with Lucifer, and so since that was sin, God created a place of punishment for these "fallen" angels and cast Lucifer and them there (AKA Hell). With that, sin was no longer in heaven, and those that remained worshiped and loved God and remained his loyal servants...the angels we know today.

Satan and his demons, have a personal vendetta against God, I'm sure because we were created in God's image, it made him especially jealous and angry...and therefore sought to destroy humanity and lead them to death and separation from God. So Satan tempted Adam and Eve. Nothing that Satan does, however, is outside of God's knowledge, so it's very possible God allowed Satan to try and tempt Adam and Eve to see if we would choose God over Satan...which we chose the latter of.

Sin entered the world simply because we messed up once. We disobeyed perfection and with the consumption of the fruit our eyes were opened to both good and evil, and we were eternally separated from God because he is only perfect and God.

God punished Adam, Eve and Satan for their actions, and as much as he loved them he was in sorrow and, well read the rest of the Old Testament. Even if you don't believe in it, it's a fascinating story.

Yeah i know the story. I'm Christian so i'm aware of this story

They choose to go to Hell....it's kind of silly in my opinion to say you would rather not live because you're scared of going to Hell, when Heaven is an extremely easy and wonderful choice.

Regardless, he wanted to create companions in his image..and he saw that it was good. God sees procreation as good. He wants people to fellowship and commune with and love. Sadly some don't choose Him, but at least he gives them the choice.

I'm not really sure, I'm just giving my answer.

Yeah you're right....it is our choice to go to heaven or hell...its our choice to follow Him or not...and if God only brought people who would worship him into the world, then there wouldn't exactly be as much free will. Our fates are already known by Him, and we'd all choose Him. I don't know, its really hard to understand, even for very religious christians. God has His own motives that we won't ever know. Well maybe someday.

Of course it hurts him...the Word says that God desires that no man go to Hell, but that all be saved through the knowledge of His Son.
He's good and just, so imperfection is something that is just impossible for God to be with. It can't be with him and He can't be with it. We're sinful, that if God revealed himself completely to us we would die. That's not how it used to be. Souls that choose sin must be punished, because that is just and good. It's just how things work. And it hurts him, but because he's the origin of justice, he will judge all at the end of time. Those who don't accept him will have their last chances during the Apocalypse when he comes back.

God loves all His creations, and i know we don't deserve Him, and i'm aware of the final judgement. I just hope that people who once mocked God will accept Him when the time comes, though i think in Revelations it states that only christians will follow Him at the time

It's sort of unknown, but I've had people theorize and say that time is like a ring, going on forever and God can see the entire thing. When someone dies, they go outside the ring, both saved and unsaved, outside the realm of "time" perse'e, and then when judgment happens all souls suddenly appear at that time-period to be judged...and those written in the Book of Life will reign with God in the New Heaven and New Earth for all eternity in peace, joy and fellowship with the Creator.

Lots of ideas, but all we know is that Christians go to Heaven and those who don't accept Christ are punished.

I don't know...i'll just believe that what the Bible says is the absolute truth, Christians go to heaven and everyone else goes to hell...

Wait...what? Everyone?

Nope. Sorry, the scripture says "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father but by Me." and "If you declare me before men, I will declare you before my Father in Heaven. If you deny me before men, I will deny you before my Father in Heaven." There's simply no other way to paradise but by Jesus, because he was the only perfect person to die for the sins of the world so we could reunite with God.

Yeah i know that....its just i find it hard to believe that such a loving God would banish so many people He loves to hell.
 

Dogenzaka

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Yeah you're right....it is our choice to go to heaven or hell...its our choice to follow Him or not...and if God only brought people who would worship him into the world, then there wouldn't exactly be as much free will. Our fates are already known by Him, and we'd all choose Him. I don't know, its really hard to understand, even for very religious christians. God has His own motives that we won't ever know. Well maybe someday.
It's as difficult to understand as the Trinity and the concept of eternity, really. But if God created people who automatically loved and chose him, that wouldn't be true love because it wouldn't be out of our own will. We'd just be robots.

Wait...what? Everyone?
Everyone will be judged, says the Bible, according to their works, this is where the whole "store up your treasures in heaven", "faith is made perfect through good works", etc. thing comes to pass, where the more you bless others and bless God with your actions, the more you shall be blessed by your Father in Heaven so I see. If everyone just believed in Christ but didn't change their ways, actions or was even kind to one another, it wouldn't be a real change or what sets a Christian apart from another person.

Of course, even if Christians are judged, we will reign with Him because we are sinful no more, "Well done my good and faithful servant", etc. etc.

Yeah i know that....its just i find it hard to believe that such a loving God would banish so many people He loves to hell.
As said before, he is a loving parent, but he's a righteous judge as well, especially if he is the quintessence of perfection. Love isn't all about the touchy feely goody stuff, otherwise parents would never ground you, etc. Not saying that hell is a form of "grounding", but it is the punishment for sin and God gives us our entire lives to make the choice. He has to separate/punish it, because God cannot be a part of sin, and so we cannot go to Heaven with Him if we have sin that is unforgiven, and the only other spiritual place is Hell, which was created especially for those who sin and rebel against God. Yadayada.
 

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Dogen said himself - god is perfect. How the fuck can you create something imperfect when you're perfect? You can't do that.

I don't get your logic here. Who says that something thats perfect always has to create something perfect?
 

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It's as difficult to understand as the Trinity and the concept of eternity, really. But if God created people who automatically loved and chose him, that wouldn't be true love because it wouldn't be out of our own will. We'd just be robots.

Everyone will be judged, says the Bible, according to their works, this is where the whole "store up your treasures in heaven", "faith is made perfect through good works", etc. thing comes to pass, where the more you bless others and bless God with your actions, the more you shall be blessed by your Father in Heaven so I see. If everyone just believed in Christ but didn't change their ways, actions or was even kind to one another, it wouldn't be a real change or what sets a Christian apart from another person.

Of course, even if Christians are judged, we will reign with Him because we are sinful no more, "Well done my good and faithful servant", etc. etc.

As said before, he is a loving parent, but he's a righteous judge as well, especially if he is the quintessence of perfection. Love isn't all about the touchy feely goody stuff, otherwise parents would never ground you, etc. Not saying that hell is a form of "grounding", but it is the punishment for sin and God gives us our entire lives to make the choice. He has to separate/punish it, because God cannot be a part of sin, and so we cannot go to Heaven with Him if we have sin that is unforgiven, and the only other spiritual place is Hell, which was created especially for those who sin and rebel against God. Yadayada.


It just so happened that after Easter i realized once again how much God must have loved us, and its a shame that people often forget that. Jesus died so we wouldnt have to. I believe that those who don't believe that will not go to Heaven, but there are many people who don't deserve that even if they don't believe in Jesus. I'm behind God 100% and whatever He does i know its the right thing, obviously

I don't get your logic here. Who says that something thats perfect always has to create something perfect?

You're right. I can't make a real life example only because nothing is perfect here on earth. But God is perfect, made us in His image, and we were perfect, but we CHOSE to be imperfect, so in actuality, God made perfect beings that strayed away on their own
 

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You're right. I can't make a real life example only because nothing is perfect here on earth. But God is perfect, made us in His image, and we were perfect, but we CHOSE to be imperfect, so in actuality, God made perfect beings that strayed away on their own

Actually you probably can. The definition of perfect doesn't necessarily mean something has to be divine. Its actual definition is "complete in nature". If a computer does all that we designed it to do, that it isn't lacking anything in its nature and is thus perfect. But if it somehow breaks and we fix it, who does the glory go to? same thing with God and us. We were made imperfect by sin and now God wants to fix us, but when we say its for his glory people think he's just trying to attract attention to himself.
 

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Actually you probably can. The definition of perfect doesn't necessarily mean something has to be divine. Its actual definition is "complete in nature". If a computer does all that we designed it to do, that it isn't lacking anything in its nature and is thus perfect. But if it somehow breaks and we fix it, who does the glory go to? same thing with God and us. We were made imperfect by sin and now God wants to fix us, but when we say its for his glory people think he's just trying to attract attention to himself.

God can't fix us until we choose him. When we reject the devil and his ways we have everylasting perfect life with God. He told us how we can fix ourselves. Its our choice.
 

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God can't fix us until we choose him. When we reject the devil and his ways we have everylasting perfect life with God. He told us how we can fix ourselves. Its our choice.

Right. Thats why I said he wants to fix us, but until we comply its impossible.
 

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Right. Thats why I said he wants to fix us, but until we comply its impossible.

Not impossible.....God laughs at the word "impossible"...He can do whatever He wants whenever He wants.

Which brings us back to the original question if there is free will with Him. He loves us too much to just control us and make us like robots like you said. I liked your example with parents. If they didn't love you, they wouldn't ground you. Parents that truly care will let you mess up and stay out of your way and see where it takes you. If you don't go back to them and ask forgiveness they will punish you for it, but if you do, they overlook it. God's the same way. He lets us live how we want, and then forgets our sins when we ask Him to. But if we don't, we will be punished.
 

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Not impossible.....God laughs at the word "impossible"...He can do whatever He wants whenever He wants.

It actually is impossible to an extent. God cannot save an unwilling person, just as much as he cannot sin.

Retribution said:
Which brings us back to the original question if there is free will with Him. He loves us too much to just control us and make us like robots like you said. I liked your example with parents. If they didn't love you, they wouldn't ground you. Parents that truly care will let you mess up and stay out of your way and see where it takes you. If you don't go back to them and ask forgiveness they will punish you for it, but if you do, they overlook it. God's the same way. He lets us live how we want, and then forgets our sins when we ask Him to. But if we don't, we will be punished.

Agreed.
 

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God can't create anything IMPERFECT, NO MATTER WHAT IT IS, so he would have to create that imperfection. It makes no sense. Don't give me the bullshit that Satan did it, too - because if God created Satan then he indirectly created evil. =/

I'd like to disprove this now.

Are you perfect? Obviously not since you yourself are stating that we are imperfect so God himself must be imperfect. If that is the case then you contradict your perfect+perfect=perfect theory. How is it that you, being imperfect, can create this theory and then call it perfect and right? It's impossible. Because your imperfect your theory has to be imperfect as well.

Now that brings us to the question that if man is imperfect then all of man's theories must be imperfect as well, according the the perfect+perfect=perfect theory. But we all know thats a lie, man has made theories such as gravity which eventually turned into fact. So if something perfect can come from an imperfect being, your theory must be false. So please stop stating this like its fact.
 

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Now that brings us to the question that if man is imperfect then all of man's theories must be imperfect as well, according the the perfect+perfect=perfect theory. But we all know thats a lie, man has made theories such as gravity which eventually turned into fact. So if something perfect can come from an imperfect being, your theory must be false. So please stop stating this like its fact.

Who says they're perfect? Scientific theories are explanations for certain phenomena, and they're pretty close to being factual as one can get, but they *aren't* perfect. Neither is science as a whole. They're still subject to change with new information. There are still so many things we don't know yet.

In that sense, rather than being perfect, they're *perfecting*.
 

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Who says they're perfect? Scientific theories are explanations for certain phenomena, and they're pretty close to being factual as one can get, but they *aren't* perfect. Neither is science as a whole. They're still subject to change with new information. There are still so many things we don't know yet.

In that sense, rather than being perfect, they're *perfecting*.

Still, aren't there explanations that you would say are obviously true?

And if they are being perfected, then they don't need to be boasted as fact.
 
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Wehrmacht

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Still, aren't there explanations that you would say are obviously true?

And if they are being perfected, then they don't need to be boasted as fact.

The two points you made tie into each other.

If you ask me, I don't think we'll ever really be able to find absolute truths, because there's always of rationalizing the "impossible", even if it's ridiculous. So science is imperfect in that regard. But that doesn't mean we should disregard our current findings because they aren't "perfect".

We make predictions using science that come true. We don't have any reason to doubt their authenticity until proof is presented
 
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