that is like saying all media is liberal. it doesn't work like that. the org walks down the road to dusk while riku and mickey walk the road to dawn.
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that is like saying all media is liberal. it doesn't work like that. the org walks down the road to dusk while riku and mickey walk the road to dawn.
KrytenKoro said:
Nothing can force you to wear that coat. Nothing can force you to obey their rules. And nothing will force you to follow their system of numbers, listen to a Superior, or research the heart.
If Riku and Mickey are wearing the coats, there is a distinct other side to their motives - and while they may not support the Organization's views, they're still must have another agenda.
Maybe at Castle Oblivion Riku found out he wasn't real or something like maybe when he "killed" ansem he felt all tingly inside and he found out now he's bad....
BUT!
What about the whole thing in ASAS where it said "You're the source of all the heartless?!" or something like that? Could it be talking about Riku or the org or something? A mystery....
BUT!
What about the whole thing in ASAS where it said "You're the source of all the heartless?!" or something like that? Could it be talking about Riku or the org or something? A mystery....
Well, think about it this way: where would they get the fabric for making the coat with the schedule they are on? Why would they wear the symbol of their "enemy" (if the Order is truly their enemy)?
They almost certainly did not buy at at KH Penny's, and the shells disappear when they die (notice they're clothes disappear too, not just their bodies). If they HAD managed to steal one of the Dead Order's clothes (which would have been creepy even for Mickey and Riku), why would they wear something once worn by powerful mages known for creating traps and enchantments?
I really cannot see any plausible reason they would have worn the cloaks unless it's some kind of outer manifestation of their hearts.
Oh, it does say they are following the middle road, they just talk about dawn after that, and they never say the other Order members are following dusk.
Plus, VEXEN, LEXAEUS, and ZEXION WERE NOT TRAITORS! They were trying to stop the traitors, but caught in Axel's double agent routine and his higher loyalty to the Keyblade weilders.
Question: Do we actually know that it is Axel against Sora and BHK for Sora? I think it might actually make more sense the other way. If BHK is somehow Sora's shell/other side (remember, Zexion "weilded" a keyblade too), then he might not want Sora to succeed, or he might stop existing. We might have some kind of storyline similar to HALO backwards (instead of enemies becoming allies, allies become enemies).
They almost certainly did not buy at at KH Penny's, and the shells disappear when they die (notice they're clothes disappear too, not just their bodies). If they HAD managed to steal one of the Dead Order's clothes (which would have been creepy even for Mickey and Riku), why would they wear something once worn by powerful mages known for creating traps and enchantments?
I really cannot see any plausible reason they would have worn the cloaks unless it's some kind of outer manifestation of their hearts.
Oh, it does say they are following the middle road, they just talk about dawn after that, and they never say the other Order members are following dusk.
Plus, VEXEN, LEXAEUS, and ZEXION WERE NOT TRAITORS! They were trying to stop the traitors, but caught in Axel's double agent routine and his higher loyalty to the Keyblade weilders.
Question: Do we actually know that it is Axel against Sora and BHK for Sora? I think it might actually make more sense the other way. If BHK is somehow Sora's shell/other side (remember, Zexion "weilded" a keyblade too), then he might not want Sora to succeed, or he might stop existing. We might have some kind of storyline similar to HALO backwards (instead of enemies becoming allies, allies become enemies).
Never Always, I respect you. RikuIsMine77, do you even know what a shell is? It's a body and a soul with no heart. If you stopped to think about it, you'd realise that Riku's power comes from the darkness in his heart. All the Org members are shells! Riku cannot be one of them, it's that simple! Riku never became a shell at all, since Ansem stole his body- there was no “other” Riku. But then Riku regained his body when Ansem was defeated- he was never a shell!! The reason Riku couldn’t leave KH through the door because only darkness could get through.
And there’s only one “twilit road”- Riku was simply referring to the direction he was going in- the road to new hope.
And there’s only one “twilit road”- Riku was simply referring to the direction he was going in- the road to new hope.
I do not know if anyone has stated this, but this regards Riku being a Shell as well. You CANNOT be a person and then Become a Shell. As in the same person. The Riku we know is the Riku we've always known. Since Destiny Islands. Unless Riku was a Shell since a young young child, then he is not one now. Take The Superior for example. He is NOT the Ansem we know. He has been seperated from the Ansem we do know.
Nice post Jacob.
Nice post Jacob.
Never Always said:
I agree on some of your points. I mean, at the end of KH1 didn't Riku see the error of his ways? Then why would he just go back fighting on the dark side. Something has to bridge the gap there, and I'm guessing KH2 will let us see into it. After all, since the Order is shells hoping to become human again what would Riku gain if he's still human?
I've heard so many rumors about Riku and his side of things. I've heard he and Mickey are trying to spy on the Order, that Riku is apart of the Order, and that Riku is suppose to fight Sora once again. It's hard to piece everything together, but as time goes along we'll hopefully get more insight on the matter.
Actually, a shell is the body and soul, counted seperate from the heart, formed when the original heart and body/soul are seperated. There can still be a heart there: Riku Replica had an artificial heart, and it's looking like the Order members are powered by Elemental hearts. If Riku soothed his heart in Elemental darkness, not only the dark side of the heart, he could very well have replaced it with a dark heart.
This would explain the high NEO's: they are not puppets because they have their own (artificial) heart, their driving force, deep memories, and emotions. The low NEO's (Nobody's), did not have a strong enough heart in the first place for an artificial heart to fit in the new hole, which is why they would need puppetmasters.
When Riku was just a heart (appearing in front of Ansem to stop him in HB), he still had his form, he was just repressed physically by Ansem. Riku Replica, as well, was a shell that had Riku's form.
Unless we are expecting the Order members to regain their hearts and end up looking like the fat shopkeeps from Traverse Town, the high NEO's should look like their old bodies, and, since they retain the soul, retain the conscious memories (knowledge (as in, what I got for my last birthday), but not true memories of the sort in CoM (as in, how my best friend would react if I told them this))
Or maybe I'm wrong, and the final logbook entries are Andy, Larry, Daniel, and Zack (the old forms of Axel, Luxord, Demyx, Xaldane)
And Jacob Twilight: there was another Riku on the path of darkness, in the world of darkness. Mickey talked to him there, telling him that he had the key for "this side". Look it up in a Final Mix FAQ.
However, we won't know anything more until the game comes out. All we know right now is that the only cloaked character in Land of Dragons has a Soul Eater, and Riku has appeared in the cloak (which Nomura says is what identifies the Order) in both CoM and ASAS (possibly also DD, if you think that the GEU is Riku)
This would explain the high NEO's: they are not puppets because they have their own (artificial) heart, their driving force, deep memories, and emotions. The low NEO's (Nobody's), did not have a strong enough heart in the first place for an artificial heart to fit in the new hole, which is why they would need puppetmasters.
When Riku was just a heart (appearing in front of Ansem to stop him in HB), he still had his form, he was just repressed physically by Ansem. Riku Replica, as well, was a shell that had Riku's form.
Unless we are expecting the Order members to regain their hearts and end up looking like the fat shopkeeps from Traverse Town, the high NEO's should look like their old bodies, and, since they retain the soul, retain the conscious memories (knowledge (as in, what I got for my last birthday), but not true memories of the sort in CoM (as in, how my best friend would react if I told them this))
Or maybe I'm wrong, and the final logbook entries are Andy, Larry, Daniel, and Zack (the old forms of Axel, Luxord, Demyx, Xaldane)
And Jacob Twilight: there was another Riku on the path of darkness, in the world of darkness. Mickey talked to him there, telling him that he had the key for "this side". Look it up in a Final Mix FAQ.
However, we won't know anything more until the game comes out. All we know right now is that the only cloaked character in Land of Dragons has a Soul Eater, and Riku has appeared in the cloak (which Nomura says is what identifies the Order) in both CoM and ASAS (possibly also DD, if you think that the GEU is Riku)
Then who looks just like him, Kryten?
Riku Replica, for one.
<after I've been lynched for stating the obvious>
Possibly Ansem, Sephiroth, EM, Zexion, or almost any of the others when they were younger. I don't think it's EM, though, since his profile looks almost exactly like Sora's (though it could look like Riku's, it IS anime-type animation)
<after I've been lynched for stating the obvious>
Possibly Ansem, Sephiroth, EM, Zexion, or almost any of the others when they were younger. I don't think it's EM, though, since his profile looks almost exactly like Sora's (though it could look like Riku's, it IS anime-type animation)
Riku might be in the Order, but he's not evil. Darkness is still in his heart and it may not make him human. He probably wants to be human and choose the light.
Nice reply, but you just said exactly what I've been saying, regarding shells- A body and soul without it's heart, which, without it's anchor to the world, i.e., it's heart, is "born" in the Twilight realm (believed to be Twilight Town). Your artificial heart theory is interesting though, but I don't agree with Riku allowing his heart to become a dark heart, since he still has light within his heart: that's what allows him to control his darkness.KrytenKoro said:
What you say about Shells retaining their apperance and concious memories is also intreging, you could be right. Plus, without the means to provide a new driving force like an artificial heart, the lesser NEOs could actually lose their form given time. However, when you say "artificial heart", I presume you don't mean like the one Professor Finkiestien created in Halloween Town (side note: Happy Halloween!!). I presume we're talking about something to take it's place, like the embodiment of an element, not a true subsitute. Nothing can take the place of a true heart.
And on the "other Riku" note, I believe that was Riku- Ansem, after facing Riku's heart's resistance, sent him to the realm of darkness, the world of chaos, and Riku's heart ended up inside Kingdom Hearts. Mickey was already there, and spoke to him. Then, when Ansem lost control over Riku's body, it returned to him, and that's how Riku ended up on the other side of the door.
And burningkeyblade, Riku has acegknowledged, accepted and embraced his darkness, because he knows he also has a light. Thus, he walks the path of Twilight. Darkness is in every heart- that's what makes a person human being, or at least a "being".
*sigh* Didn't the other Org. members give themselves to darkness like Riku. If they were turned into a shell how come it's impossible for Riku to? 
After all, Riku does have to deal with his circumstances as well, does he not?
After all, Riku does have to deal with his circumstances as well, does he not?No, the Org members aren't shells because they gave themselves up to darkness, they just have no true hearts, Riku's got one, and one of the strongest ones out there to boot. Riku has never become a shell because he didn't lose his heart, Ansem just stole his body. Riku's not a shell because he has a heart.RikuIsMine77 said:*sigh* Didn't the other Org. members give themselves to darkness like Riku. If they were turned into a shell how come it's impossible for Riku to?
Jacob Twilight said:
Then how did the Org. members come to have no true heart? I know Riku's got a strong heart (due to him being the true keyblade master), but when Riku possessed by Ansem and Sora were fighting Sora told Ansem to give back Riku's heart, which meant he took over something more than Riku's body. And if Riku did have a heart what's his motives of joining the Org.?
They could have lost their hearts in experiments, accidents, but the simplest reason for the Org members losing their hearts falls into our good friends, the Heartless. When they take your heart, the rest of you becomes a shell in the Twilight realm. Possibly Ansem's shell (Who we know to be the Superior, but not exactly who he is) then formed the XIII Orginisation.RikuIsMine77 said:
Sora meant for Ansem to take a hike from Riku's body, because as we all know, Sora wasn't exactly educated it the fine details of the Body, the Heart and the Soul, the... "Trinity", if you will. All he knew was, it was Riku's body, but there was a squatter in there, and he needed to shove it.
And we don't know for sure that Riku has joined the Org. He may have been wearing the cloak, but, as someone has said before me, the Org tried to enslave Riku to their will. I don't really think Riku's the type who would sign an application form for a job in the club that tried to make him fight his best friend.
And Sora's the true keyblade master. Riku may have supposed to have had it in the first place, but Riku lost his right to wield it when he opened his heart to darkness. And when his heart strenghened sufficiently to take it from Sora, he had it for ten minutes, then it was back with Sora.
Seriously though. At the end of the day, Riku is not a shell.
I know Riku isn't the kind to give into joining some group without gaining anything himself. But how do you suppose the Org. could just make him there slave?
KrytenKoro said:
Kryten...
Do you even believe it could have been any one of those you have mentioned? That quote, " He looks just like you" has much meaning. Now IF GEU is Riku, Riku Replica is long dead, and Riku was already aware of the fact that RR looked just like him. Zexion is long faded, Sephiroth....oh please. Besides...at the end of some trailers, they show, BFU, DWU, GEU, and SU in one frame that is split fourway. Now...I do not think that 'our' Riku could occupy two of these slots. Its not likley that he is GEU at all. Sometimes you just say things just to say them I think.
Jacob Twilight said:
It may have been said my Nomura himself, but I don't really think he meant it that way. That Riku lost the Keyblade due to accepting the Darkness and opening his Heart to it. Sora simply got it because his Heart was stronger. Sora's motive was to save his friend from the Darkness by using the light in his Heart. A move of Courage and Sacrifice. Riku's motive was to use the Darkness in his Heart for Greed to "see other worlds". In that aspect why Sora obtained the Keyblade. Not simply because Riku opened his Heart to the Darkness. Think about it, there have been Keybeares that have wrought chaos and destruction upon the world...you know this. So...a Keyblade doesn't necisarilly care about what your Heart contains I think but how strong it is, and what drives it to be so.
As you see later, the Keyblade accepted Riku did it not? Riku was still using Darkness. If I have missed something, let me know.
Then again, you just said "when" so it might not be that you believe he lost it because of that...and it seems that I have wasted a little time...Its all good. Im sure I have cleared something up for someone.
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Thanx for clearing that up for me.einon_san said:
Well, for one, since it's showing two different scenes, it could also be BHK on the rock. If it is EM, who looks young anyway, then whatever.
Yes, I do think before I say things, I just don't repost several pages worth of forum. Consider this: GEU has the same boots, symbol, and, as far as I can tell, face as Dark Mode Riku. He's also the only one character in the games that has that kind of symbol in that position (the non-chained dark heart), and the other Order characters in the trailers don't have those boots. Plus, it calls attention to the eyes just like it did with BFU.
Anyway: if it isn't Riku, it has to be one of the surviving members:
Axel, Luxord, Demyx, Xaldane, EM, Mickey, BHK, the alleged second woman, or the possible extra 3 members that Square had given no hint of existing.
Who do those look like? And is it reasonable to think that these characters were even concepts when those movies were made?
If not BHK, then who was EM talking about when he told Sora that he looked like "him"?
By the way, "you look like him" is a reminiscing type thing to say. If you look like how someone remembers somebody, that's what they'll say. Maybe EM hasn't seen the dead corpses of the guys I mentioned (though, with the existence of Hades and the non-existence of dead NEO's, I doubt he ever will).
Also, the earlier post was responding to someone elses definitiopn of shell: I responded to you a long time ago, JT.
Yes, I do think before I say things, I just don't repost several pages worth of forum. Consider this: GEU has the same boots, symbol, and, as far as I can tell, face as Dark Mode Riku. He's also the only one character in the games that has that kind of symbol in that position (the non-chained dark heart), and the other Order characters in the trailers don't have those boots. Plus, it calls attention to the eyes just like it did with BFU.
Anyway: if it isn't Riku, it has to be one of the surviving members:
Axel, Luxord, Demyx, Xaldane, EM, Mickey, BHK, the alleged second woman, or the possible extra 3 members that Square had given no hint of existing.
Who do those look like? And is it reasonable to think that these characters were even concepts when those movies were made?
If not BHK, then who was EM talking about when he told Sora that he looked like "him"?
By the way, "you look like him" is a reminiscing type thing to say. If you look like how someone remembers somebody, that's what they'll say. Maybe EM hasn't seen the dead corpses of the guys I mentioned (though, with the existence of Hades and the non-existence of dead NEO's, I doubt he ever will).
Also, the earlier post was responding to someone elses definitiopn of shell: I responded to you a long time ago, JT.
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